Feedback and suggestions on 'professional' renders

DustyShinigami

Hi

This is a follow-up to this thread - https://polycount.com/discussion/233832/guidance-with-making-high-quality-renders#latest

I've yet to go through the advice given, along with the videos, due to having a time limit for getting the project done. As a result, there are issues I have with the final asset that I'm not happy with that I plan on going back and fixing before attempting these professional renders again. These include the likeness/age, the hair and layering, the textures (these were rushed sadly), and the final pose.

But based on what I've done so far, I'd appreciate some feedback and suggestions on how best to improve these renders. It's an aspect I never seem to feel confident with, either because of the camera set-ups, the lighting, or just the overall quality.

My project was to make Lara Croft and I used a temple environment for the final renders.

Thanks

Alex_J

if the model isn't great the only thing you can really do to make it look better (without actually making it look better) is to obscure it more. Put her in shadow, let just a rim light show curve of her leg or something like that. Basically tease like there is something there that is more than what really is.

the model and textures and pose could all use significant work if you want it to look professional , e.g. on par with current gen characters it is mimicking.

for rendering screenshots you could study art fundamentals such as : composition, color theory, value and lighting. I think your images are probably okay if the model was strong and was in a pose that displayed some sort of action happening. But because of the stiff pose, lack of details in model and texture it feels more like a doll thats just kind of placed there in the level. The fact that the level assets are high quality makes the character look worse in comparison.

to redo the character and bring it up to be on par with whatever the latest official version of lara croft is could probably be months of work if you are a really good character artist already.

DustyShinigami

Alex_J said:

if the model isn't great the only thing you can really do to make it look better (without actually making it look better) is to obscure it more. Put her in shadow, let just a rim light show curve of her leg or something like that. Basically tease like there is something there that is more than what really is.

the model and textures and pose could all use significant work if you want it to look professional , e.g. on par with current gen characters it is mimicking.

for rendering screenshots you could study art fundamentals such as : composition, color theory, value and lighting. I think your images are probably okay if the model was strong and was in a pose that displayed some sort of action happening. But because of the stiff pose, lack of details in model and texture it feels more like a doll thats just kind of placed there in the level. The fact that the level assets are high quality makes the character look worse in comparison.

to redo the character and bring it up to be on par with whatever the latest official version of lara croft is could probably be months of work if you are a really good character artist already.

I agree. It looks terrible in comparison to the environment. :-\ I'm not satisifed with it at all. I did try to make a more action pose, but some of the deformations were still iffy and I didn't really have time to refine things, so scrapped it for a more neutral pose. But as you say - stiff. This is why I despise rushing work, particularly art. It needs the time and polish.

This is the high poly, by the way:

I always feel that my high polys are great - that I'm satisifed with them - but so far, I've never been able to say the same for my low polys. The bakes always come out great, apart from the odd issue, but I think it's been the texturing that's let them down the most. Along with poses, hair, and beauty renders.

Ashervisalis

Whether you have time or not, your render isn't going to look professional if your textures aren't finished. In your first image, the assets from the kit are scaled up way too much and so they look blurry, I think you need to redo your set dressing at an appropriate scale. Focusing on the character though, the pose shouldn't be an A pose, and the textures are farrrr from done. It looks like you've only dropped a solid colour on each part of the character and called it done. Whether you're going for realistic or stylized, you probably need to spend another few weeks on the texturing of the character in order to attain professional renders.

Rima

The textures look quite....Last gen. Several of them are quite blurry, too. How are the texel densities? It feels like they might be off, but it could just be an effect of the textures. Also, it's very flat. Not just because of lighting choices, but because everything seems matte. There's not a lot of reflection or anything. That's partly due to the environment being mostly rocks, of course...So it might do to add something to change that. Perhaps so rain, or puddles? You need something. I don't think it's very advantageous, if you want this to show off your skills, for it to be largely homogenous in terms of colour and reactions to light.

Regarding the character model, you're clearly aware of its faults. In particular the face doesn't look right, and the neck muscles. Also, the arms seem strange. It's like you have the bicep, and then you have the main forms of the lower arm perfectly mirrored down the line of the arm. They aren't like that; you'll need to go back quite a way with it. The legs also seem to become incredibly thin as they reach the knee, at least to me.

Regarding the clothes and props, they just don't look right. It's hard to describe exactly why the boots don't look right, but if you just look at a boot, you'll see. They just lack form; it just looks like a tube that sticks forward at the bottom. It's lacking around the ankle especially. Do you own any boots? I find mind get particular creases in them due to the movement of my feet as I walk, putting pressure on them, rotating, etc. Also, where are the seams on the vest? There should at least be a side seam, I should think.

At that, the bags also feel off. They just....Don't feel like they have anything in them. They're too perfect, too boxy; they don't look used. The creases also look very arbitrary; the ones in the middle of the backpack have no reason to exist. If you own any kind of bag, put something in it and look at how it changes it; they'll come from where the weight is and how it pulls on it. Even if you assume that backpack only has something very light in it, or even is empty, it should look less symmetrical; think about how it would look if you used it. Would you have made certain to buckle it closed on the exact same holes on each side, at the exact same angle, with the leftover parts hanging down just the same way?

A character is a lot by itself; so is an environment. I'm not an expert, but looking at the images in your previous thread, those feel like they'd have to be the work of multiple people; ones who specialise in environments doing those, and ones who specialise in characters doing those. It might be better to just pick one to focus on for now.

DustyShinigami

Ashervisalis said:

Whether you have time or not, your render isn't going to look professional if your textures aren't finished. In your first image, the assets from the kit are scaled up way too much and so they look blurry, I think you need to redo your set dressing at an appropriate scale. Focusing on the character though, the pose shouldn't be an A pose, and the textures are farrrr from done. It looks like you've only dropped a solid colour on each part of the character and called it done. Whether you're going for realistic or stylized, you probably need to spend another few weeks on the texturing of the character in order to attain professional renders.

Essentially, yes. I did drop coloured maps on. 😅😖 What texture is there was added as surface detail in ZBrush and baked, but none of these renders capture any of that detail. 😕

It’s also meant to be a bit of a stylised/realistic hybrid and was based around the Tempe of Osiris version of Lara.

Alex_J

I'd start with the sculpt. It has doll-like anatomy rather than realistic human. It's going to be a lot of work to get that corrected but I think it will be the most essential thing if you are aiming for professional quality.

once the anatomy is good then a lot of work on the secondary details of the clothing. but it is so much work to do, better to just focus on one thing at a time.

if you are trying to impress for a character artist job the characters anatomy has to be perfect.

DustyShinigami

RimaModela said:

The textures look quite....Last gen. Several of them are quite blurry, too. How are the texel densities? It feels like they might be off, but it could just be an effect of the textures. Also, it's very flat. Not just because of lighting choices, but because everything seems matte. There's not a lot of reflection or anything. That's partly due to the environment being mostly rocks, of course...So it might do to add something to change that. Perhaps so rain, or puddles? You need something. I don't think it's very advantageous, if you want this to show off your skills, for it to be largely homogenous in terms of colour and reactions to light.

Regarding the character model, you're clearly aware of its faults. In particular the face doesn't look right, and the neck muscles. Also, the arms seem strange. It's like you have the bicep, and then you have the main forms of the lower arm perfectly mirrored down the line of the arm. They aren't like that; you'll need to go back quite a way with it. The legs also seem to become incredibly thin as they reach the knee, at least to me.

Regarding the clothes and props, they just don't look right. It's hard to describe exactly why the boots don't look right, but if you just look at a boot, you'll see. They just lack form; it just looks like a tube that sticks forward at the bottom. It's lacking around the ankle especially. Do you own any boots? I find mind get particular creases in them due to the movement of my feet as I walk, putting pressure on them, rotating, etc. Also, where are the seams on the vest? There should at least be a side seam, I should think.

At that, the bags also feel off. They just....Don't feel like they have anything in them. They're too perfect, too boxy; they don't look used. The creases also look very arbitrary; the ones in the middle of the backpack have no reason to exist. If you own any kind of bag, put something in it and look at how it changes it; they'll come from where the weight is and how it pulls on it. Even if you assume that backpack only has something very light in it, or even is empty, it should look less symmetrical; think about how it would look if you used it. Would you have made certain to buckle it closed on the exact same holes on each side, at the exact same angle, with the leftover parts hanging down just the same way?

A character is a lot by itself; so is an environment. I'm not an expert, but looking at the images in your previous thread, those feel like they'd have to be the work of multiple people; ones who specialise in environments doing those, and ones who specialise in characters doing those. It might be better to just pick one to focus on for now.

The texel densities are all solid, I believe. And they're all at 4K, which, obviously in this case, are wasted because of just flat colours. Judge for youself.


I will be overlaying some of the repetitive parts. Had to leave them again because of time.

I'm not really sure what to do regarding an environment for the character. I was under the impression placing a character into a pre-made environment would help with making professional renders...? I have no experience with making them, but would like to learn one day.

Regarding her arms and legs - I did sculpt them myself, but then used the wrap and project method using Wrap4D. The model was from the 3D Scan Store. Not sure if that's related...? But I pressume you're referring to the original high poly?

And regarding the pouches and rucksack - I tried to keep them symmetrical to make things easier, apart from tertiary details and folds. Again, it was more based on the Temple of Osiris model, which is this:


My girlfriend did point out to me though that the face on mine makes her look like she's 12-14, so I definitely need to adjust that and make her look maturer, like in the above reference model.

But thanks for the suggestions about the pouches, rucksack and boots. The boots I definitely agree with. They looked off when I'd finished. :-\ I tried to base them on these:

https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/lara-croft-classic-boots-52f64e00953144f4be1f35285bfaa517

DustyShinigami

Alex_J said:

I'd start with the sculpt. It has doll-like anatomy rather than realistic human. It's going to be a lot of work to get that corrected but I think it will be the most essential thing if you are aiming for professional quality.

once the anatomy is good then a lot of work on the secondary details of the clothing. but it is so much work to do, better to just focus on one thing at a time.

if you are trying to impress for a character artist job the characters anatomy has to be perfect.

Okay, thanks for the advice. It's fine. I think my best option for now then is to follow some courses, particularly on anatomy, improve, seek feedback, and then use the new knowledge gained to fix up these characters and their issues.

DustyShinigami

Alex_J said:

if the model isn't great the only thing you can really do to make it look better (without actually making it look better) is to obscure it more. Put her in shadow, let just a rim light show curve of her leg or something like that. Basically tease like there is something there that is more than what really is.

the model and textures and pose could all use significant work if you want it to look professional , e.g. on par with current gen characters it is mimicking.

for rendering screenshots you could study art fundamentals such as : composition, color theory, value and lighting. I think your images are probably okay if the model was strong and was in a pose that displayed some sort of action happening. But because of the stiff pose, lack of details in model and texture it feels more like a doll thats just kind of placed there in the level. The fact that the level assets are high quality makes the character look worse in comparison.

to redo the character and bring it up to be on par with whatever the latest official version of lara croft is could probably be months of work if you are a really good character artist already.

Do you have any suggestions on courses or books (online or physical) for things on composition, colour theory, value and lighting? I have covered the topics, but additional refreshers would be super welcome and helpful.

kanga

The renders above look like poser art, which is to say purchased assets put together to form an image. There is nothing wrong with that, but you have to be pretty good to pull it off. The difference in the quality of the figure and background makes the images jarring to look at. It looks like the model doesn't belong in the setting. See,... when you make everything yourself you have absolute control and it adds cohesion. The materials in the scene far outstretch the materials on the character for example. Seems a bit strange you are seeking advice on achieving a professional quality while writing that the excuse for the work above is a lack of time.

My suggestion would be to study and practice character modelling and human anatomy, costume and material physics, environments and stage settings and concentrate on lighting and visual narrative. Or,...... do everything using AI.

However there are artists who are adept at all the points above and are using AI as a tool. Go to Artstation, enter AI in the search bar and be prepared to have your eyes knocked out of their sockets!

Fabi_G

Hi! Certainly the model and textures need work, but as was already mentioned, the lighting can make a big difference.
Currently the character doesn't feel part of the scene, she sticks out, to brightly, uniformly lit. That's something you could prioritize when on a deadline.

Regarding the modeling, I would say the proportions could be improved, and in the same spirit the clothing layer that goes on top. Particularly the boots look very straight/simple/uncomfortable. A way to avoid this would be to model on top of a character model initially to have the body as a reference. This doesn't mean the body underneath has to be fully fleshed out.

Surely this is just one project of many to come - bring it to a conclusion to the best of your abilities and apply your learnings to next one. Maybe return to the subject in the future with the experience you have then. if you want to focus on certain aspects of the character, you could break parts out to reduce the scope and allow to focus: a bust to train hair and head, just the boots, just the backpack and accessories.

Keep it up!

DustyShinigami

kanga said:

The renders above look like poser art, which is to say purchased assets put together to form an image. There is nothing wrong with that, but you have to be pretty good to pull it off. The difference in the quality of the figure and background makes the images jarring to look at. It looks like the model doesn't belong in the setting. See,... when you make everything yourself you have absolute control and it adds cohesion. The materials in the scene far outstretch the materials on the character for example. Seems a bit strange you are seeking advice on achieving a professional quality while writing that the excuse for the work above is a lack of time.

My suggestion would be to study and practice character modelling and human anatomy, costume and material physics, environments and stage settings and concentrate on lighting and visual narrative. Or,...... do everything using AI.

However there are artists who are adept at all the points above and are using AI as a tool. Go to Artstation, enter AI in the search bar and be prepared to have your eyes knocked out of their sockets!

Yeeeaaahhh, I have mixed feelings about AI. Skeptical even. Though I get it has its uses and helps speed certain workflows up. ^^; I've only been specialising in characters so far, so I have no experience with environments. I would like to dip my toe into it though. I just don't know when.

The lack of time was because it was an assignment. I'd already passed the official deadline and had to get an extension. But even then, I was too slow at getting everything finished and polished. I take too long. :-\ I'm a perfectionist. And I can't stand rushing art. But despite that, I still wasn't able to get everything finished to a standard I would be happy with. But I reckon even if it had received the time it needed, there'd still be something off with the lighting, environment, camera, composition etc.

DustyShinigami

Fabi_G said:

Hi! Certainly the model and textures need work, but as was already mentioned, the lighting can make a big difference.
Currently the character doesn't feel part of the scene, she sticks out, to brightly, uniformly lit. That's something you could prioritize when on a deadline.

Regarding the modeling, I would say the proportions could be improved, and in the same spirit the clothing layer that goes on top. Particularly the boots look very straight/simple/uncomfortable. A way to avoid this would be to model on top of a character model initially to have the body as a reference. This doesn't mean the body underneath has to be fully fleshed out.

Surely this is just one project of many to come - bring it to a conclusion to the best of your abilities and apply your learnings to next one. Maybe return to the subject in the future with the experience you have then. Keep it up!

Thanks. That's the plan anyway. I'll just follow some courses and try to improve on what I already know and learn some new techniques and workflows. Then I'll come back and fix these projects up. Apart from the boots, what would you say could be improved with the clothing? Specifically the tank top, shorts and gloves?

I did use the reference model and overlayed it in ZBrush, but despite that, still didn't quite manage to get the likeness/face correct. ^^; But again - this will be rectified next time. Same with the other elements.

DustyShinigami

What would be someone's suggestion, that ideally doesn't involve AI, as that would be something else to look into in the future, if at all (would prefer making stuff myself) that I could do regarding putting my character into an environment to make professional looking renders? As has already been proven, using a bought pre-made one isn't necessarily going to fit the style of my character. And I don't have the first clue on how to make an environment myself. Though I would like to learn eventually.

zetheros

sounds like you answered the question yourself lol. If you want to do it yourself and also have professional results, you'll just have to git gud and do it. Become a professional.

Some feedback; I don't think her face looks 12-14, but IMO her head is too big in relation to her body, which will give that look, and more time spent sculpting clothing and assets is needed

Fabi_G

"Apart from the boots, what would you say could be improved with the clothing? Specifically the tank top, shorts and gloves?"

Regarding clothes, I think some more folds and (subtle?) wear would help to communicate that this is someone on an adventure. While the outfit is conforming to the body, revealing some layer of cloth beneath the top layer could increase detail and believability. Don't know if "explorer" gloves exist, maybe there are climbing gloves that could serve as reference?

Of course it's balancing act too, keeping the original/iconic design recognizable, but not feeling empty/lifeless due to the increased resolution, but also not go too noisy.