Confused about topology for defined Muscles

borbus

Hello fellow peeps, I'm currently retopologizing my game character and I'm kind of puzzled how to structure the topology to display the muscles properly.
My goal would be something like this:
https://www.artstation.com/artwork/9md2RQ

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/g2Rboe

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dnfduel/images/b/b9/Ghostblade_Main_Artwork.png/revision/latest?cb=20220525165621

Current topology looks like this:

For reference this is the high poly:

As you can see the muscle definition is not that high in the first picture, so i changed the topology so that it flows more according to the structure of the muscles.

This is how it looks at the moment:

This looks a lot better, but the edge flow is getting kind of disrupted, so im not sure if thats a good way to structure the topology.
Just a bit confused about how to go on to achieve the desired look.

Alex_J

In my experience its usually best to stick with simple loop topology, and if you need the silhouette to match more closely to your sculpt, then just add more subdivisions.

The main things I'm usually thinking about are balance between how easy it is to work with for texturing, rigging, animation, and for all of those considerations, simple loops are better (easier to work with).

Here is example from daz genesis 8.1 model. Basically its standard loops but with some offset extrusions so that muscles can be expanded: 

borbus

Thank you for your advice.
I have found the middleground between my two initial ideas and now it looks like this:

Looks alot better and the edgeflow is also just simple loops.
Is it alright if the edges are a little bit pinched together, like in here?

Also when is using "kites" in topology permitted. They are very handy for edge reduction, but also disrupt the edgeflow, so im not sure when they should be used.

For example, would this "kite" be okay or would it interrupt something in terms of deformation/rigging.

Thank you in advance for any help.

oglu

Make straight pipes. They deform best and support skin sliding. There is no need for complex topo on arms and legs. 

Except there is a hard poly limit for the target game.

borbus

Alright, thank you!

Alex_J

I am not sure which 3d program you are in, but it would be good to see if there is some easy rig plugin you could use. Might take a couple days to get familiar with. But then you can easily make a mock skeleton and test deformations.

I guess you don't even actually need a rig for simple test, just make some joints and bind the skin and move them around. Then you can see if topology causes anything weird to happen. Just be sure to only test deformations that will actually be possible.

If you need to bring several edge loops together to reduce number and it is causing a problem in a particular spot, you can move that intersection to somewhere else that doesn't deform so much.

I think if you just stick with oglu's advice you'll be good but its good to know a few tools to test things out further for yourself.

killnpc

I would suggest searching out the works of Brian "Bobo the Seal" Jones and his disciples'. He often created and advocated following anatomical forms with geometry in the day and there's likely no better reference for stylized game character construction to be frank.

Eric Chadwick

We have some good examples on our wiki. Drill down here into the sub-pages like LimbTopology and ShoulderTopology
http://wiki.polycount.com/wiki/Topology
For example: 

borbus

Thank you all for your help, after a while this is what it looks like now:

There are quite alot of 5 edge poles at the back and also the oblique area looks a bit weird, but I don't think that it will affect deformation or shading that much or even at all

carvuliero

Arm wont work like that you haven't connected it to the correct place , you have to create pit of the arm and raise the connection

borbus

Sorry, but i'm not sure that i understood you 100%. Do you mean that i have to make the shoulder blade bigger to also connect it to the arm, instead of just the shoulder? Also i cant figure out which bones are missing at the forearm area. I'd appreciate it if you could elaborate a bit more.

carvuliero

Nope scapula is fine thats the line for serratus anterior .Its the funny bone [medial epicondyle ]

borbus

Hm, then i don't understand what you mean by raising the connection and connecting it to the correct place

carvuliero

Right now you have fuse arm to the side of the torso which first is incorrect and second it wont deform correctly

I can assume you have arms ,go infront of a mirror and investigate

borbus

Ah, yes now i get it. Thanks for pointing it out. I will fix it and then update again.

borbus

I changed it on the sculpture now, and it looks correct now to me.

carvuliero

I would move green dot to the red dot and define teres major

kanga

The figure as it is has some awkward shapes and proportions. You got super advice from Eric Chadwick killnpc and carvuliero already. I think you are worrying about things that are not that important right now. What are you using as reference? If you use a program like Daz it will make your life easier. Having a correct figure on a screen next to you that you can rotate and zoom around is extremely useful. I reckon you would be best off getting your figure looking correct and expressive before worrying about topology.

borbus

I'm using a lot of Reference Images but i also frequently look at 3d Models in Sketchfab, where i can see every little detail.

This is how the body currently looks like and the reason i already started with topology is because I was pretty certain that i got the anatomy right for my goal.
I must agree that the area around the scapula looked weird, but other than that I don't see anything wildly wrong. The clavicle looks a bit funny but its not super important that this part is perfect in the sculpture. The shoulder area is also a bit exaggerated with the lines showing each head of the deltoid but i can fix that later on.

My intended goal is an anime style body, something like the one of Ghostblade from the fighting Game DNF:Duel.

 

carvuliero

There are few things kind of mix between design and anatomy tips :

-big thing make abs taper down the body like a bullet

-lats tend to look like a step when very developed

-delts get round when very developed

-pecs top head could be better defined

Other then that give him a nice face

borbus

Thank you for the advice, I'll work on the things you mentioned.

And thank you all for helping me out