Limbs, Body Parts, and Joints

Silverthunder

This has probably been asked before, but I'm having quite the time finding a solid answer one way or another. When it comes to character modeling, I seem to always have an issue connecting arms and legs to the torso. I'm always trying to preserve the natural edgeflow but the numbers are always way off unless I do something extremely low poly. So... I'm trying to figure out how to change my workflow and technique at least a little to help bring everything together better. I currently use 3ds max, so anything regarding box or edge modeling would really help out.

Short: any tips for keeping edgeflow when connecting limbs?

rollin

I would say that's just how it is. There will be probably a difference in the grid density if you compare the hands or feet to the body. On the other hand you probably add some edge loops that come from the limb, circle the joint of limb and body about maybe 180 degree and flow back along the limb. 
So at least I don't know any 'magic' fix for this fundamental problem

DavidCruz

Echo what rollin said but just wanted to add my .02cents - on say how i enter challenges so they are not a total loss. (i.e. what do i want to learn.)
For the wild west challenge i wanted to attempt a fully quaded design with good edge flow - i wanted perfect edge flow but time was against me.
Below i state what i did to make it easier on the eyes and myself, basically created the connection points 1st then worried about flow after that.  idk if my example works best but again your rough triangle limit range matters this is 7,522 tris.  Some spots looking at it now could be better but it does get a bit frustrating keeping it quaded.  With stylized stuff for me i wanted to exaggerate the muscles which made it a bit easier for me to make the connections better and opened up complicated area's giving me a good amount of space say in the armpit area.  (most area's not going to be seen head on or at all got less geo if it looks odd, clothing covering, gloves, hair..ect.)Do not claim to know it all but i feel i learned some stuff with box modeling ,I love it, but its kind of dying.

Hope it helps someone, i also tried a new way to unwrap hands recently with this design since the former really bugged me. 
Updated:
One last thing that might look odd, i accounted for movements, so make a fist look at the fist so you are looking at the wrist, then keep the arm stationary and point your fist to your eyes, look at the wrist that is why i made my area the way i did to mimic that in animation, even though the model probably will never get animated.
update2:
Poly edge flow 2012 u-tube video

Silverthunder

rollin said:

I would say that's just how it is. There will be probably a difference in the grid density if you compare the hands or feet to the body. On the other hand you probably add some edge loops that come from the limb, circle the joint of limb and body about maybe 180 degree and flow back along the limb. 
So at least I don't know any 'magic' fix for this fundamental problem

Thanks for the reply, I was kind of worried that there was something fundamentally wrong with my approach or something like that. 

DavidCruz said:

Echo what rollin said but just wanted to add my .02cents - on say how i enter challenges so they are not a total loss. (i.e. what do i want to learn.)

Hope it helps someone, i also tried a new way to unwrap hands recently with this design since the former really bugged me. 
Updated:
One last thing that might look odd, i accounted for movements, so make a fist look at the fist so you are looking at the wrist, then keep the arm stationary and point your fist to your eyes, look at the wrist that is why i made my area the way i did to mimic that in animation, even though the model probably will never get animated.
update2:
Poly edge flow 2012 u-tube video

Superb! Excellent example, my latest character that prompted me to try and sort this all out is a bit muscle bound as well, and the shoulders were extra troubling, though looking back the arms aren't exactly how I want them anyway. 

I have to ask though, because it's another thing that's been bugging me. As far as muscles go, especially the pecs and the abs, what's your general work flow? It definitely looks like they were incorporated in the first stage of the modeling (like the in the video), rather than sculpting or warping it later. But, when I do it this way the apex of the muscle always ends up at a single point like a sphere, it just seems during the process it's the easiest way to work it when edging it. I'm not sure though. 

DavidCruz

Silverthunder said:

what's your general work flow?

But, when I do it this way the apex of the muscle always ends up at a single point like a sphere, it just seems during the process it's the easiest way to work it when edging it. I'm not sure though. 

General work flow now is this guide i share in my signature, idk if everyone can view signatures i think you have to set it in the options in your profile to view signatures?  At least i had to, anyway this is it:https://polycount.com/discussion/217774/cleaner-muscle-body-results-sculpting-guide-tutorial-tips-tricks#latest
Using a basemesh from zbrush with everything as an object them merging it all when i sort it to whatever concept/work i am attempting.

I can continue to share links cause idk the triangle count goal, i never really played with super ultra realistic meshes so if that is your target goal someone else might have to chime in who has more knowledge in that area.
Otherwise : https://poopinmymouth.com/#tutorials has a multitude of guides that help with the connection area's specifically the chest and arms here: https://poopinmymouth.com/tutorials/character-tutorial.html
If there is anything better i have no idea, this is what came to mind though and hopefully these help even more.

Maybe share some images of your attempts and point out the areas and issues that you ran into.

Silverthunder

DavidCruz said:

General work flow now is this guide i share in my signature, idk if everyone can view signatures i think you have to set it in the options in your profile to view signatures?  At least i had to, anyway this is it:https://polycount.com/discussion/217774/cleaner-muscle-body-results-sculpting-guide-tutorial-tips-tricks#latest

Thanks a million. And yah, I need to figure out where to turn on signatures...

I never thought about doing the muscles as separate entities at first though. That might be a strong way to do it with the kind of high count I'm going with. You're example is fantastic by the way, but I think it might be too late for this particular model that I'm working on... lesson learned though. 

But... I am a bit embarrassed to show it. These are the biggest problem areas (the first arguably the worst). I have a lower and higher poly versions that look pretty decent for me from a purely visual standpoint, but this one best illustrates the problem. I already figure this will be a nightmare to rig, but I'm going to see how it goes. 

DavidCruz

Hi again, I like your enthusiasm,
been away at hospital for someone else, was hoping someone else would come around when you showed the image but guess not.

So the topological flow seems to be rough, idk tbh how the abdomen area would work : but i did manage to do a quick search on artstation and this popped up that might prove to be helpful - specifically the double & radial looping for the abs might work out much better than the current setup.

Also found this
From 
This search
Check the other stuff below and see if anything stands out to you that might be helpful.

I apologize if this is not what you expected as a response but i tried my best to guide you to a better path, hopefully you can figure out something that works for your piece and don't be embarrassed to show it we all had learning pieces at some point, i had probably the worst ever because at the very start i tried to mishmash things together and was like done!

Silverthunder

DavidCruz said:

I apologize if this is not what you expected as a response ...

Oh, no worries at all! You helped immensely, especially with the videos and the model you showed. I think that kind of helped out more than anything. For some problems, I think I'll have to approach the overall workflow a little differently next time. The second character I ever did was quite a bit easier with a simpler more cartoonish design, so it was much easier to get done. For my third one I probably should have gone for something a bit simpler too, or maybe more mechanical like my first, but I'm still pretty happy with the practice on organic modeling.  

Either way- thanks for the input! Still a a little messy, but with the help I at least beefed up the shoulder and arm to more satisfactory levels. 

Eric Chadwick

Some stuff here that might help
http://wiki.polycount.com/wiki/ShoulderTopology