A thought on 3d art referencing and plagiarism

R4DSUN

Hi all, while I was getting some feedback and critique on this: https://polycount.com/discussion/217196/wip-my-ar-journey#latest
a friend pointed out that I've made the 3d model look exactly like the original piece and textures in real life. Since then, I've been wondering if creating an exact 3d model out of real-life artwork(non-digital) is considered plagiarism in the 3d world? Have I been using references wrong all this time?

a quick comparison between the reference and the model I made for fun

CrackRockSteady

Yeah...it's one thing to recreate a real-world object using ref photos, and another thing entirely to recreate a real world thing + exactly copy the original artwork that has been painted on that thing.

IMO it's pretty sketchy to exactly copy the artwork someone made and then try to call it your own.  

Why not make something similar but with your own design on it?

pior

This is such an odd way of framing it - so, let's backtrack for a second.

In very practical terms, were you planning to :

A - Post this render of yours somewhere online, with no mention of where the design actually came from, and claiming "I did this" ?
If that's the case ... then you obviously know exactly what is wrong about it  

B - And if that's not the case (say, you were planning to label your render with something like : "modeled after a [name of the firearm] clip with custom art by [name of the artist]". And maybe even a link to the original photograph), then obviously no accusation of plagiarism would follow since you would have laid all your cards on the table.

Note that I am in no way suggesting that there is any deceitful intent on your end even in the case of A. But your friend is very right in how he is forcing you to think in very practical terms

CrackRockSteady

pior said:

This is such an odd way of framing it - so, let's backtrack for a second.

In very practical terms, were you planning to :

A - Post this render of yours somewhere online, with no mention of where the design actually came from, and claiming "I did this" ?
If that's the case ... then you obviously know exactly what is wrong about it  

B - And if that's not the case (say, you were planning to label your render with something like : "modeled after a [name of the firearm] clip with custom art by [name of the artist]". And maybe even a link to the original photograph), then obviously no accusation of plagiarism would follow since you would have laid all your cards on the table.

Note that I am in no way suggesting that there is any deceitful intent on your end even in the case of A. But your friend is very right in how he is forcing you to think in very practical terms

Also want to say that while I agree with what pior is saying here (if you credit the artist + show referenced art, no one is going to accuse you of plagiarism), I will say that if this is intended to be a portfolio piece, it feels a little bit...lazy?  My feeling is that the primary "cool" factor of this piece is the design painted on the side, and if you need to qualify portfolio work with caveats about how you didn't actually do the main cool thing, it might be better to spend some time making your own design.

poopipe

I think pior has hit the nail on the head really.
As an example of your ability to work from concept/reference its fairly effective so if you're crediting the original artist your morals remain intact. 

As to whether I'd hire you based on it... You need to work on your material definition and observation of such before I'd consider it - I looked straight past the graphic design and I'm sure a lot of other people who'd be hiring would do the same. 

NikhilR

How did you go about reproducing the image for your model? Did you trace out the design from the physical model?

Honestly I don't think anyone would really care unless you look into selling and made sufficient revenue from it for the holder of the artwork to care, if they find out.
Another aspect to consider is fair use, some exceptions there too.
You could link to their page and credit them for the design. No idea whether that is actually their original design either.

Portfolio wise, you'll certainly get insight here on polycount, but in the job market its open season, better not to speculate or assume anything when it comes to how your portfolio performs there unless you're getting specific feedback from someone who actually reviewed your work.

pior

"Honestly I don't think anyone would really care" - hehe that's the whole thing isn't it !

- The vast majority of people coming across the picture will indeed not care one bit. Casual AS viewers, friends and family, Kotaku readers, and so.

- Other CG artists ? Most will not care either. The ones who want to help you/give you good advice *will* care though - like here in this thread.

- The artist who originally draw the graphic ? That one person *will* very much care. Will either be flattered, and/or ask you to take it down, and/or ask you to give credit where due.

- The manufacturer selling the custom clip with the graphic on top ? Oh, they will care, a lot Unless they stole the image to begin with of course ...  

- And of course the art director that you want to impress to get a job will care quite a bit too.

NikhilR

pior said:

"Honestly I don't think anyone would really care" - hehe that's the whole thing isn't it !

- The vast majority of people coming across the picture will indeed not care one bit. Casual AS viewers, friends and family, Kotaku readers, and so.

- Other CG artists ? Most will not care either. The ones who want to help you/give you good advice *will* care though - like here in this thread.

- The artist who originally draw the graphic ? That one person *will* very much care. Will either be flattered, and/or ask you to take it down, and/or ask you to give credit where due.

- The manufacturer selling the custom clip with the graphic on top ? Oh, they will care, a lot Unless they stole the image to begin with of course ...  

- And of course the art director that you want to impress to get a job will care quite a bit too.

"...unless you look into selling and made sufficient revenue from it for the holder of the artwork to care, if they find out."

Not to say he should go ahead, but best to give credit where its due.

Also if he were to sell it, fair use would look into what the end product is, if its an image of his render or a 3D print with the graphic printed on.

The assumed owner of the image with the graphic laser prints the graphic on AR-15 Magazines as customs. 
http://leoarmory.com/ss/index.php?l=product_detail&p=10

This is one of the artists they've collaborated with http://www.sweyda.com/
Not sure if its the artist behind the image in the photo.

Also I'm not sure about what the manufacturer of AR-15 has to say in that regard either, the copyrights for the rifle are long expired but there are patents filed for some designs and components. The term "AR-15" is trademarked though, so basically everyone here using it for their 3d models (including the wonky looking unfinished ones) is a criminal (sort of)

In fact it seems that literally every artist here is a plagiarist at some level including the art directors assessing our work for jobs.
I mean if you look at it that way you could attribute that word to every single person on earth. 
Its always the end product which invites legal speak particularly where there is money involved.

A good example of this is the advent of custom baby yoda's that have turned a good lot of artists into hardcore outlaws on etsy. 
Here's the extent of the crime:
 https://www.etsy.com/ca/market/baby_yoda
https://insidethemagic.net/2019/12/unauthorized-baby-yoda-merch-ba1/

The fascinating thing about this case is that while every artist there has plagiarised disney, they are also plagiarising each other.
Considering the theme of the Mandalorian (space western) I find this situation fitting.

So that said, probably best to give credit and leave it at that.
Usually being thorough about your inspirations is a good courteous practise.
 If you want to go a step further, you could message the company on instagram and link them to your forum post notifying them that it is fan art. Maybe also have a disclaimer saying so on your artstation.

I doubt they will have you take it down, more likely for them to have you link their product to your artstation. 

Here's a good article assessing the nature of fair use,
https://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/fair-use/four-factors/

R4DSUN

CrackRockSteady said:

pior said:

This is such an odd way of framing it - so, let's backtrack for a second.

In very practical terms, were you planning to :

A - Post this render of yours somewhere online, with no mention of where the design actually came from, and claiming "I did this" ?
If that's the case ... then you obviously know exactly what is wrong about it  

B - And if that's not the case (say, you were planning to label your render with something like : "modeled after a [name of the firearm] clip with custom art by [name of the artist]". And maybe even a link to the original photograph), then obviously no accusation of plagiarism would follow since you would have laid all your cards on the table.

Note that I am in no way suggesting that there is any deceitful intent on your end even in the case of A. But your friend is very right in how he is forcing you to think in very practical terms

Also want to say that while I agree with what pior is saying here (if you credit the artist + show referenced art, no one is going to accuse you of plagiarism), I will say that if this is intended to be a portfolio piece, it feels a little bit...lazy?  My feeling is that the primary "cool" factor of this piece is the design painted on the side, and if you need to qualify portfolio work with caveats about how you didn't actually do the main cool thing, it might be better to spend some time making your own design.

@pior Ayy cheers for the clarification, I was going to do option B, but there were issues:

1. couldn't find the artist who made.

2. there were two stores that sell the item.

with that being said, Its best that I don't post it anywhere else(I'll leave the ones that were posted in polycount as a learning prosses).

Cheers @CrackRockSteady understandable if its lazy will make pinups of my own design!

R4DSUN

NikhilR said:

How did you go about reproducing the image for your model? Did you trace out the design from the physical model?

Honestly I don't think anyone would really care unless you look into selling and made sufficient revenue from it for the holder of the artwork to care, if they find out.
Another aspect to consider is fair use, some exceptions there too.
You could link to their page and credit them for the design. No idea whether that is actually their original design either.

Portfolio wise, you'll certainly get insight here on polycount, but in the job market its open season, better not to speculate or assume anything when it comes to how your portfolio performs there unless you're getting specific feedback from someone who actually reviewed your work.

Thanks, NikhilR! Its a semi-process of tracing and warping in photoshop, then I drew the parts that weren't able to warp correctly so it would look flat. Later on, I exported the image to SP painted for clean-up.

R4DSUN

poopipe said:

I think pior has hit the nail on the head really.
As an example of your ability to work from concept/reference its fairly effective so if you're crediting the original artist your morals remain intact. 

As to whether I'd hire you based on it... You need to work on your material definition and observation of such before I'd consider it - I looked straight past the graphic design and I'm sure a lot of other people who'd be hiring would do the same. 

Cheers poopipe! will keep that in mind and I'll fix the base material!