@pior Sure. I guess I was responding more to the original post, and to Shriken, which focused a lot on the gender issue.
@pior & @Ryusaki : I agree 100%, I usually play as a woman in games and I have no problem with identifying with characters, regardless of gender. But I do think that what you see on posters and in trailers and what have you makes a difference. If you look at most games I bet 90% is a cool angry dude with guns/swords/bloody fists. This is a bigger issue, but men are portrayed one way, women another (if at all). Women gamers I've spoken with tell me that they feel invisible, that they play games despite the marketing and/or characters, not because of it. And I didn't say women didn't like games because of the gender of the main protagonist, there's a difference between liking a game and feeling included. Sure, I can play games no matter what, but I'm a man, I'm the norm; easy for me to say.
@BIGTIMEMASTER Did you just point fingers and tried to shame me? But seriously, what do you think we have learned from this? And who should learn? Isn't that the discussion, and the thing that makes it go in circles forever? I'm not choosing a side or drawing a line, I have an opinion. I try not to be dogmatic, but in this case I guess I just don't understand the point of being angry at stuff like this. Sure, DICE could have handled it better and lord knows that this is probably the only time me and Patrick Söderlund have agreed on anything.
Well, you are preaching to the choir, I think, when you say, "why be upset about this? why complain?"
I think most people here are with you on that. We don't care about historical accuracy in a game like this, and we aren't sexist. I mean, I speak for myself but I think most the community is more or less on the same page there. If you are a sexist, I will point my finger at you and say "shame."
So the issue I see... well, I have already said a lot here, you can read my post above to get my take on it. If you don't care that much, the TL:DR is that I believe the developers chose a good message but delivered it very poorly, and then made it worse by using really lousy conflict resolution skills. Maybe I am way off. Probably, nobody cares. But I don't regret anything, because if it is shown that I am wrong, or I hurt somebodies feelings, there is a really easy solution. I can apologize. It's simple, and it works, so long as there is sincerity.
Dammit, I did it again, wrote something on the internet, and now I regret it.
You regret jumping into an argument without reading into the subject and then have your rhetoric torn apart
Also this entire "If the game is good, just play it" - If your barista insults you and tells you to buy your coffee elsewhere, do you still go there as long it tastes fine? No you wouldn't. Would you buy meat from a butcher you know is a murderer, prone to stab people and owns slaves as long the meat is good? What kind of logic is that. Of course these things do not exist in a vacuum.
And youtube has a extremely broad audience, a 70% dislike is a very representative with a huge sample size, trying to spin this as a small niche one sided community is a ridiculous strawman. Humans watch 1 billion hours per day.
And since when do people need people to look like them to enjoy a game? What kind of narcissism is that? I am pretty sure billions of people do not identify with super Mario or Pkachu. Most people also do not look like Lara Croft either and enjoyed the games a lot. Also BF5 is a first person game, you don't even see yourself.
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8 Notifications, Nice! Polycount is alive > Absolutely agree with the good points presented by Pior and Ryusaki
Dammit, I did it again, wrote something on the internet, and now I regret it.
You regret jumping into an argument without reading into the subject and then have your rhetoric torn apart
Also this entire "If the game is good, just play it" - If your barista insults you and tells you to buy your coffee elsewhere, do you still go there as long it tastes fine? No you wouldn't. Would you buy meat from a butcher you know is a murderer, prone to stab people and owns slaves as long the meat is good? What kind of logic is that. Of course these things do not exist in a vacuum.
And youtube has a extremely broad audience, a 70% dislike is a very good sample size, trying to spin this as a small niche one sided community is ridiculous. People watch 1 billion hours per day.
And since when do people need people to look like them to enjoy a game? What kind of narcissism is that? I am pretty sure billions of people do not identify with super Mario or Pkachu. Most people also do not look like Lara Croft either and enjoyed the games a lot. Also BF5 is a first person game, you don't even see yourself.
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8 Notifications, Nice! Polycount is alive > Absolutely agree with the good points presented by Pior and Ryusaki
Wow.
Yes, what kind of logic is that? Just say random stuff and try to make them sound connected somehow?
Do you think that all of youtube watches all of youtube? That's not how it works.
So you accuse me of not reading the thread, then don't even notice that I've already answered what you commented on in your last paragraph?
Your argument was "The context / creators do not matter as long the product is good" which I countered with examples why that is wrong. You do not just "play the game if its good"
Yes gaming people and people interested in battlefield watched the battlefield trailer, of which 70% disliked. That is still a perfectly broad political and geological audience.
Polycount left me on the first page when writing so I did not see the second page comments. You answered with a extremely subjective impression of extremely low sample size, which reads more like you copied your opinion from some opinion piece article.
Im pretty sure if you do not buy a game because your first person hands are not like you, you are not interested either way. Either you think a game will be fun and you look forward to it or you don't, this all sounds like a dynamic that does not exist. If you don't like a game that is about a cool angry dude thats just not your type of game and a cool angry women would not sell it for you, just like Bombshell or Ion Maiden does not attract female players and is for the exact same audience.
To buy BF5 you either want to play in a WW2 setting or shoot people in a team for fun or both, if you dont check neither of that, you will surely never buy it. A King tiger being orange or a character having another skin won't change anything in the slightest in that.
Hardly, Its still 10000:1 or so in combat roles, that would fall into margin of error in a statistic
I responded because of "some" female frontline participation in WW2 was inferred, hence a referral too previous comments I'd made specifically about the Red Army where for example had 300.000 woman serving in anti aircraft batteries throughout the war. Which is hardly an insignificant number considering most Soviet cities during the opening phases of Operation Barbarossa were designated by the German High Command (OKW) as legitimate military targets let alone 3 million + casualties (KIA, wounded and captured, etc) sustained via ill equipped and prepared Formations. Losses that initially had to be made up from somewhere prior to the release of 14 additional divisions later that year from central and far east commands.
no, I don't think that was spot on. If your only priority is, "what's in it for me?" fine, maybe so.
Me, personally, I learned several useful things from your contribution here, so if that means anything to you, be proud. Personally I wish more experienced, professional people would share their take, because I want to hear it. For the hobbyist looking in, I want to know what the people in the industry I will be a part of some day are all about. But most importantly, I want to see people who know how to have a tough conversation about controversial topics set an example for how it's done, because it is obvious some people here need to see.
^ With respect I differ, though the parenthesis was meant as a partial tongue in cheek attempt at brevity but still many a time I've contributed my thoughts to 'hot' topics both here and elsewhere when overall the discussion will eventually peter out into coalescing opposing poles. To quote Rudyard Kipling "never the twain shall meet" as it were...
We don't care about historical accuracy in a game like this, and we aren't sexist.
I do care about historical accuracy especially in terms of visual and thematic representation and i don't consider myself sexist, but i am sure some feminist somewhere would disagree.
I was against females in this game, because i foresaw this exact dilemma.
Can i be against females in an specific game in an specific context without being labeled as an sexist? (<- that's a trick question)
I certainly don't have anything against females in other games( i played and loved plenty), i also think that technically Dice could have made an good WW2 BF with females and without simultaneously alienating their core audience. I would play such a game.
How can Dice & EA not know in the year 2018 that they are walking on thin ice when it comes to pushing left wing ideology in their media (too far)?
How can they not know after what happened to Disney's Star Wars, and Marvel's comic and all the other stuff that it is an economical risk to do so? Especially if you then attack the people who dare to criticize you as bigots.
Why doubling down when the customers show resistance?
The majority of people does not care about identity politics and perceives this as an annoyance in their entertainment, especially if its heavy handed, obvious and brings with it a decline in quality of writing and a lack of diversity of opinions.
I am really confused because i seriously doubt that it was a mistake. I can't get into my head why these people behaved like they did. It makes no sense to me.
You have explained what happened and i agree, but why?
Why do they have such louse conflict resolution skills, and why did they create the conflict in the first place ?
Well, there is a lot more people who read and say nothing, and not just today but maybe even years from now. So maybe the discussion becomes a couple dudes endlessly arguing, but your worthwhile contribution is still there.
The people here who I respect the most are ones who I am reading archived threads from years ago and getting lots of great information from.
We don't care about historical accuracy in a game like this, and we aren't sexist.
I am really confused because i seriously doubt that it was a mistake. I can't get into my head why these people behaved like they did. It makes no sense to me.
I don't disagree with you at all. I gave my thoughts way back on the first page, I think they are the same as what you are saying here.
I was simplifying things somewhat for the sake of the other guy who seemed to miss what you are on about, which is the same thing I was trying to explain pages ago. But rather than point out all the things I think they are wrong about, I think it's better to find the things we agree about first.
Much like the controversy over this game and how the aftermath was handled poorly, a thread like this is a good opportunity to observe and learn the same skills the developers/publishers failed to exercise, for whatever reason. It is bizarre to me as well, and playing armchair psychologist is interesting, but I don't know how useful that is and also, like I said, I don't want to point fingers and insult people miles away. I just want to share what parts of my opinion and experience I think are relevant so that people don't repeat mistakes like this, and I really want to read what people who have more relevant experience than me in this industry have to say about it.
Listen, if anybody here ever has dreams of becoming a leader, the big boss, you have to learn how to have difficult conversations, squash problems before they arise, and put out fires between people who should be working together in harmony. It is a rare skillset and worth a lot of money. If it's not your ambition, and you are happy to just be the worker ant, it is still in your best interest to show people by example how to behave, because somebody there is going to become your boss some day. And you don't want them to be a dick who fucks everything up.
Your argument was "The context / creators do not matter as long the product is good" which I countered with examples why that is wrong. You do not just "play the game if its good"
Yes gaming people and people interested in battlefield watched the battlefield trailer, of which 70% disliked. That is still a perfectly broad political and geological audience.
Polycount left me on the first page when writing so I did not see the second page comments. You answered with a extremely subjective impression of extremely low sample size, which reads more like you copied your opinion from some opinion piece article.
Im pretty sure if you do not buy a game because your first person hands are not like you, you are not interested either way. Either you think a game will be fun and you look forward to it or you don't, this all sounds like a dynamic that does not exist. If you don't like a game that is about a cool angry dude thats just not your type of game and a cool angry women would not sell it for you, just like Bombshell or Ion Maiden does not attract female players and is for the exact same audience.
To buy BF5 you either want to play in a WW2 setting or shoot people in a team for fun or both, if you dont check neither of that, you will surely never buy it. A King tiger being orange or a character having another skin won't change anything in the slightest in that.
I do just play the game if it's good, what you're presenting is not a universal truth by a long shot. I've read books, watched movies and listened to music by authors that I later learned are horrible people and while it's not completely neutral, I still think that what they made are just as good. Especially since I already paid for it... Next time they release something, I might think twice and do my research.
My personal observations are, of course, subjective and based just on a handful of people, but there are no shortage of articles and discussions stating the same thing. Either way, I don't see how wanting to include more people is a bad thing.
I don't really understand the rest of your answer, but I'm pretty sure you misunderstood what I wrote.
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The last game I really played was Mass Effect: Andromeda and I actually enjoyed it, despite its flaws. After I finished it, I discovered the hate and the pointless anger. Sure, some things broke the spell, but then I moved on and finished the game and it was fine. Not the best game I ever played, but still worth it. That's the echo chamber, people creating a feedback loop of hate, making small things The Worst Thing In The World, Ever. Enjoy the game, or don't and do something else.
Yes, DICE might have handled it poorly, but BF5 didn't sell, which probably means BF6 will be back to business as usual and nothing ever changes. So everyone wins.(?)
Tim Pool has just put out a really good analysis about this all based on the continued stock plummet. It might be worth a watch, he does ramble a bit but makes some solid points.
TLDR; they care more about pleasing investors than consumers.
the weirdest thing for me is I have played the game for about 30 hours already, and havent seen one robot arm chick, katana or cricket bat or blue face paint, I havent played too much of the singleplayer but I havent see anything like the actual content of the reveal trailer. It almost like DICE pivoted to a more realistic art style and tone in response to the criticisms but still stick to their initial defensive communication strategy.
either way the game is fun as hell, the audio is amazing and I am really enjoying the experience so far.
Well, to each their own. I was into philosophy for some years, but when you dig deep enough into anything it starts to smell like doo doo. So now I just do what feels right without following any kind of principles whatsoever. Like a dumb animal.
But I don't like to see people afraid or unwilling to express themselves. It is not healthy for the individual or culture as a whole. And when everybody just clams up and hides in their holes, what happens? They get weird, and then you have shootings all the time (in places with easy access to guns), and you see loud-mouth bastards getting voted into power all over the world by selling fear to people who don't know their neighbors well enough.... it is a time for anybody who knows what normal decency and healthy conversation looks like to show by example.
Besides saving the world, like I said anybody who knows how to discuss a difficult subject, actively mending divisions and not creating new ones, is going to become a leader in their organization and be highly valued. And if they aren't, the organization probably sucks. Anyway, there is the rub for the egoist. More money, respect, etc. (this all assumes I got the reference right)
Even though I've got money burning a hole in my pocket, sadly work commitments in the short term take precedence over an ever decreasing time poor leisure time leading into the new year; plus allocation of funds towards a total high end PC new build at this point forestalls getting my greedy mitts on a copy. But doesn't preclude hoovering up any relevant snippet in the hope of somewhat prepping myself for the 'mosh pit'.
Replies
I think most people here are with you on that. We don't care about historical accuracy in a game like this, and we aren't sexist. I mean, I speak for myself but I think most the community is more or less on the same page there. If you are a sexist, I will point my finger at you and say "shame."
So the issue I see... well, I have already said a lot here, you can read my post above to get my take on it. If you don't care that much, the TL:DR is that I believe the developers chose a good message but delivered it very poorly, and then made it worse by using really lousy conflict resolution skills. Maybe I am way off. Probably, nobody cares. But I don't regret anything, because if it is shown that I am wrong, or I hurt somebodies feelings, there is a really easy solution. I can apologize. It's simple, and it works, so long as there is sincerity.
Also this entire "If the game is good, just play it" - If your barista insults you and tells you to buy your coffee elsewhere, do you still go there as long it tastes fine? No you wouldn't. Would you buy meat from a butcher you know is a murderer, prone to stab people and owns slaves as long the meat is good? What kind of logic is that. Of course these things do not exist in a vacuum.
And youtube has a extremely broad audience, a 70% dislike is a very representative with a huge sample size, trying to spin this as a small niche one sided community is a ridiculous strawman. Humans watch 1 billion hours per day.
And since when do people need people to look like them to enjoy a game? What kind of narcissism is that?
I am pretty sure billions of people do not identify with super Mario or Pkachu. Most people also do not look like Lara Croft either and enjoyed the games a lot. Also BF5 is a first person game, you don't even see yourself.
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8 Notifications, Nice! Polycount is alive
> Absolutely agree with the good points presented by Pior and Ryusaki
You do not just "play the game if its good"
Yes gaming people and people interested in battlefield watched the battlefield trailer, of which 70% disliked. That is still a perfectly broad political and geological audience.
Polycount left me on the first page when writing so I did not see the second page comments. You answered with a extremely subjective impression of extremely low sample size, which reads more like you copied your opinion from some opinion piece article.
Im pretty sure if you do not buy a game because your first person hands are not like you, you are not interested either way.
Either you think a game will be fun and you look forward to it or you don't, this all sounds like a dynamic that does not exist.
If you don't like a game that is about a cool angry dude thats just not your type of game and a cool angry women would not sell it for you,
just like Bombshell or Ion Maiden does not attract female players and is for the exact same audience.
To buy BF5 you either want to play in a WW2 setting or shoot people in a team for fun or both, if you dont check neither of that, you will surely never buy it. A King tiger being orange or a character having another skin won't change anything in the slightest in that.
Me, personally, I learned several useful things from your contribution here, so if that means anything to you, be proud. Personally I wish more experienced, professional people would share their take, because I want to hear it. For the hobbyist looking in, I want to know what the people in the industry I will be a part of some day are all about. But most importantly, I want to see people who know how to have a tough conversation about controversial topics set an example for how it's done, because it is obvious some people here need to see.
^ With respect I differ, though the parenthesis was meant as a partial tongue in cheek attempt at brevity but still many a time I've contributed my thoughts to 'hot' topics both here and elsewhere when overall the discussion will eventually peter out into coalescing opposing poles. To quote Rudyard Kipling "never the twain shall meet" as it were...
The people here who I respect the most are ones who I am reading archived threads from years ago and getting lots of great information from.
I was simplifying things somewhat for the sake of the other guy who seemed to miss what you are on about, which is the same thing I was trying to explain pages ago. But rather than point out all the things I think they are wrong about, I think it's better to find the things we agree about first.
Much like the controversy over this game and how the aftermath was handled poorly, a thread like this is a good opportunity to observe and learn the same skills the developers/publishers failed to exercise, for whatever reason. It is bizarre to me as well, and playing armchair psychologist is interesting, but I don't know how useful that is and also, like I said, I don't want to point fingers and insult people miles away. I just want to share what parts of my opinion and experience I think are relevant so that people don't repeat mistakes like this, and I really want to read what people who have more relevant experience than me in this industry have to say about it.
Listen, if anybody here ever has dreams of becoming a leader, the big boss, you have to learn how to have difficult conversations, squash problems before they arise, and put out fires between people who should be working together in harmony. It is a rare skillset and worth a lot of money. If it's not your ambition, and you are happy to just be the worker ant, it is still in your best interest to show people by example how to behave, because somebody there is going to become your boss some day. And you don't want them to be a dick who fucks everything up.
TLDR; they care more about pleasing investors than consumers.
either way the game is fun as hell, the audio is amazing and I am really enjoying the experience so far.
But I don't like to see people afraid or unwilling to express themselves. It is not healthy for the individual or culture as a whole. And when everybody just clams up and hides in their holes, what happens? They get weird, and then you have shootings all the time (in places with easy access to guns), and you see loud-mouth bastards getting voted into power all over the world by selling fear to people who don't know their neighbors well enough.... it is a time for anybody who knows what normal decency and healthy conversation looks like to show by example.
Besides saving the world, like I said anybody who knows how to discuss a difficult subject, actively mending divisions and not creating new ones, is going to become a leader in their organization and be highly valued. And if they aren't, the organization probably sucks. Anyway, there is the rub for the egoist. More money, respect, etc. (this all assumes I got the reference right)
Even though I've got money burning a hole in my pocket, sadly work commitments in the short term take precedence over an ever decreasing time poor leisure time leading into the new year; plus allocation of funds towards a total high end PC new build at this point forestalls getting my greedy mitts on a copy. But doesn't preclude hoovering up any relevant snippet in the hope of somewhat prepping myself for the 'mosh pit'.
TTK Charts & Analysis
BFV Ch 1: "Overture Update"
...etc.