Your take on Battlefield's V History Revisionism Issue

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I've never looked at video games for accurate depictions of history/reality or else, I would have probably not enjoyed the Ass Creeds franchise but what EA/Dice did to their latest Battlefield title has issued a boat load of controversy, decreasing their fanbase trusts even more and diminishing their sales by 63% in their UK chart since BFOne...

Apparent ''antagonisation'' of white male soldiers, glorification of women protagonists, putting the female genders in role they've never had during WW2,  odd twists in depicting actual soldiers (mechanical arms), rewriting of actual past conflicts to pander to the all-inclusive left SJW market.
The list goes on and more developers are considering whether the whole ''Get woke, go broke'' thing to cater to the progressive public is really a good idea.

More insightful video here:




By the way...
Polycount has been kind of dead these past weeks and yet this has been one of the busiest/ controversial season of the gaming industry lately with Red Dead 2 blowing out the open world market, Fallout 76 troubles and BF V controversy...


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  • BIGTIMEMASTER
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    BIGTIMEMASTER sublime tool
    This is the problem when you have people ruining a good cause by misunderstanding the principals of the argument. But people are lazy and locked in this dualistic mode of thinking where to say "up with the women" must mean "down with the men." This caveman mindset is the root of all evil.

    Just ask yourself, before you say anything, "is what I am about to say coming from a desire to benefit everybody, or a manifestation of fear?" Really, everything you do comes down to that -- either love or fear. As long as you know what is driving you, you can confidently be yourself and not fear the consequence.

    There are plenty of real life examples of noteworthy and inspiring women in the history of armed conflict. If video game designers root themselves more firmly in reality, do the research, and present a narrative people can take seriously, they will benefit and not be swinging the pendulum so far in one direction that it must in turn swing back to the other extreme. But they aren't doing that. They are concocting fantasies born of fear. It's the same as the story they are railing against, just inverted. Good versus evil -- a stupid tale with no grounding in reality. This kind of carelessness strengthens divisions and does nothing to do the kind of mind-changing our noble but misguided quoted dev is hoping for. 

    Think about it. You've got a redneck neo-nazi who thinks women are worth about one rib from a man. What do you think the best way to convince him that the other 50% of the population is worthy and should be respected is? Create obvious fantastical role reversals that demonize his side? Or choose from any of the many real life examples of women doing admirable and courageous things, making no effort to demonize or shove anything down anybodies throat, but simply exposing a reality that our neo-nazi brother may not have ever been aware of or considered. Change does not happen over night, but if you try to make it happen that fast you are going to get the wrong kind of change, guaranteed.

    Concocting fantasies to fight against other fantasies can only lead to division and fighting. When the truth is exposed, however, change happens. When you expose the truth, nobody will be able to deny it. 

    So, the noble developer who wants to empower young women needs to do so in a way that does not create as many enemies for his young girls to fight. First they need to understand the nature of armed conflict so that they can develop an air of authenticity -- and for that you need honest (important), experienced veterans -- and then when you have the groundwork layed all you have to do is insert your female protagonist, who is essentially the same as any male except she has to avoid melee combat because male primates are stronger. But shooting people with rifles is something almost any woman can do as well as a man. It's no secret that women have a different biology than a man, but in facing challenges and overcoming them the strength of a persons character is revealed. Then there is a character anybody can admire. 

    People liked Ellie in The Last of Us because she was a weak little girl, but she adapted and survived in a dangerous world ruled by monsters and cutthroat men. So in spite of her challenges, she leveraged her strengths to adapt and survive. Now that Ellie has become a caricature of a badass, I don't know if she'll gain any new followers. I know that I am much less interested in the sequel after seeing her become a ninja that slays grown men by the dozens in the new trailers. It's not that I don't want to see young women kicking ass -- that is the awesome part -- I just want to not have to suspend all disbelief. I want a game world I can believe and thus get immersed in. If you want to make a strong character people will admire, make them weak, and give them serious challenges to overcome. Don't make them a super-hero. Super heroes are dumb.


    If you look at the great female combat heroes of history then, you'll notice that they were clever. They weren't wolves or lions, they were panthers. They understood their own weaknesses and leveraged their strengths, and that is what made them powerful.

    ANd I know people will say, "but ellie has been through so much, how could she not be a badass?" Well, here is my free combat-veteran consultation about becoming a badass : Nobody is a badass. You stay alive by getting smart. You learn about your enemy, and you make sure you are always 10 steps ahead of them. When they are looking for you, you are long gone. When you are seeking them, you have every advantage. It's that simple. WHen is comes to guns and grenades and rockets, as soon as the first goes off it's chaos and anything can happen. You don't want anything to do with chaos. Too much risk. You need certainty. So being a winner means stacking every advantage so you can get a decisive kill without the bad guys having a chance at all -- and you don't ever make a move without certainty about what will happen once you do.

    Contrary to common character archetypes, badassness is not a measure of the strength of one's emotion, but rather by the longevity of one's resolve, persistence, determination, and willingness to adapt to circumstance. Whoever goes the furthest, wins. Whoever can reinvent themselves more times, wins. Whoever is calmest will make the better decisions. Whoever has the broadest perspective will win the war. All the characters you see angrily trying to get revenge or whatever -- they are people who, in real life, will start a fight and die quickly. They are a false fantasy that tells people "if you try really hard you'll win." People ingest all this crap, then when they grow up and move out of the house they can't figure out why they stay poor and can only concoct enemies to put the blame on. Remember this -- you don't gain anything by defining enemies, and you can only benefit whenever you make a friend. So where ever you see an enemy, ask yourself, "how do I make them my friend?"

  • Taylor Brown
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    Taylor Brown keyframe
    Agreed, try not to shit where you eat. In regards to the quoted dev, as a father of a strong little woman, I agree completely.
  • Aabel
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    Aabel polycounter lvl 4
    Depictions of historical events tend to attract people who care about accuracy above all else. It's the nature of such things.

    Little upside and much downside for employed men to discuss such topics.
    A pretty damning indictment on the state of our culture when artists working in cutting edge media are afraid to speak their minds.
  • Ashervisalis
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    Ashervisalis polycounter
    I don't think it's a black and white topic.

    On one hand, obviously nobody is looking to Battlefield for their history lessons. How accurate is the rest of BF? I dunno. Everybody and their dog knows there weren't many women fighting in WW2, though there were some. Here we have Dice taking some creative and untrue liberties on their WW2 game, but to provide a sense of inclusion, which this industry hasn't historically done well.

    On the other hand, to say people aren't going to learn a little bit of history from this game is the opposite of the truth. If they're creating a reenactment of such a massive historical event, one could say they're knowingly misleading others, and pandering too much to people crying out for the industry to be more inclusive.

    Obviously this decision has pushed the game slightly into fiction. Dice has the right to do this with their games. I feel like I'm kind of in the neutral standing here. I don't think this decision should have a huge impact on whether people decide to play the game or not.
  • RN
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    RN interpolator
    But is the game fun?

    edit: to add more substance to this, why are people picking on this and not on Tesseract-yielding, red-skull-faced villains from Captain America, another universe that's also based on WW II?
  • BIGTIMEMASTER
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    SNiper Elite 4 is a great WW2 shooter and has some historical female characters in it presented in a way that anybody can admire and appreciate, because they are presented realistically. 

    When developers deal with fact, and only bend it a little for artistic purpose, people will know. When you create a new religiion to fight against the old one, everybody will suffer.
  • Brian "Panda" Choi
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    Brian "Panda" Choi polycount lvl 666
    They "earned the ability" when they made it fictional WW2.

    I hope more people buy said rhetoric.


  • VelvetElvis
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    VelvetElvis polycounter lvl 7
    I get maybe an hour every other weekday and a few more on the weekends to game between family and work duties. I could give less than a mouse fart about historical accuracy. Is it fun for me? Yes? Then game on.

    If you don't like the game taking historical accuracy out, don't buy the fucking thing. It's pretty simple isn't it?

    I'm also pretty sure you don't regenerate health and you don't respawn once you are killed in battle. Where is the outrage on that one?
  • BIGTIMEMASTER
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    BIGTIMEMASTER sublime tool
    I agree completely. I don't buy games that I'm not interested in. But we are both working adults. Most gamers are kids who spend most of their time playing games. Their minds are highly malleable. So the developer who wants to do something good, like creating an empowering experience for women, is taking on a an important responsibility and should be applauded. But if the execution is done in a way that creates more division in an ongoing argument because they simply create a counter-fantasy to fight against the prevailing fantasy, this is just throwing gas on a fire. 

    Reality is that women are worthy and competent and it's basically foolishness to judge a person by much else beyond their individual character. The key is exposing this reality, not creating a fantasy everybody knows is false. 

    It would be nice to just tell all the cry-babies to STFU and eat what they are served, but these people grow up and they vote. ANd they elect dumb bastards like Trump. And then we all lose. So you can't just dismiss them. If you know better, you have to educate them. Not fight them. Not try to ram their own medicine down their throats. Just show them how things really are.
  • SenSayNyu
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    It's just wrong execution. Dice should've made female soldiers available for soviet side only. It's historically accurate and a great example of powerful women participating in war on frontlines. Ironically, I've little doubt that people would cry that it's not fair and all sides should have that option.
  • seth.
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    seth. polycounter lvl 9
    Blond said:
    ... and diminishing their sales by 63% in their UK chart since BFOne...

    You do realise that number is physical sales only and that BO4 is 59% down on physical sales compared to CoD WW2 in the UK also ?

    People aren't buying physical copies anymore, the digital sales figures when released will show the full picture. I'm not going to bother getting into the rest of it about whether I agree with the Stockholm management decisions or not.

    Also with regard to the subject being ignored, why would Devs want to post on a public forum ragging other Devs? Seems like a shitty thing to do if you ask me, fuck off to Kotaku why dont you :)


  • RyanB
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    I don't expect consumer products to be historically accurate.
  • sacboi
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    sacboi interpolator

    Blond said:

    "By the way...
    Polycount has been kind of dead these past weeks and yet this has been one of the busiest/ controversial season of the gaming industry lately with Red Dead 2 blowing out the open world market, Fallout 76 troubles and BF V controversy...

    Well, probably incontrovertible evidence that such a 'edifying' discourse of 'viewpoints' hadn't previously rated a mention here is because, at an educated guess, like most creatives using these boards I'd much rather leverage ever decreasing spare time devoted to progressing an attainable competency in my chosen field.

    FFS...it's only a game! which by sheer definition this medium hardly has a reputation for generating output that'll typically correlate accurately with historical events.

    Anyway as mentioned above, women had indeed fought on the front line in the Red Army, employed in divers roles ranging from pilots, tank crew, snipers, machine gunners...etc. Also SOE deployed highly successful female operatives, one example is a national heroine (fellow ex-pat Kiwi) Nancy Wake due too her effectiveness as a spy master, hence in 1943 she became the Gestapo's most wanted with a 5million franc price on her head.

    So, here's an insight from someone who served in the forces 30yrs ago...really takes more than being born with a penis to make it as a soldier.   

             

  • sacboi
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    sacboi interpolator

    BIGTIMEMASTER said:

     Most gamers are kids who spend most of their time playing games. Their minds are highly malleable.

    I think you'd be surprised too learn that statistically worldwide it's actually 35yo, so diametrically opposed attitudes are not the sole purview of your average archetypal puerile gamer.    

  • Zocky
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    Zocky polycounter lvl 8
    Well, while this is extremely touchy subject, where one wrong move can get you into worlds of problems, even then, i do think just being silent about it isn't going to do anyone any good.

    As somebody here already said; regardless on which side you are regarding Trump; if you like him, fine, he's now president, if you don't  and you look down on anyone who wants to vote for him (again), talking them down is just going to bounce back like boomerang and be counter productive. So actually talking about things i think is still much better instead of trying to shush people, as long as you can have normal debate(speaking in general, not just this topic here).

    Long story short, i think why all the problems like this, be it politics, race, gender, whatever, kinda comes to one simple thing; people just don't listen to each other and show enough respect, plain and simple.

    In case of Battlefield; let me first explain, that i personally don't really play it, since i prefer slightly more "fantasy" games, but i think you can come to some sort of conclusion. The way i see it, if devs want to add more enpowered women, or add totally fantasy elements that to many will look illogical, it's their game, they should have freedom to do whatever they want. Nobody should have right to force devs what they should do. I think that's fair to say.

    But, on the other hand, (not saying that was the case), in case for example, that Battlefied was always all about at least trying to  feel historically accurate, and now they all of sudden switched gears and went for half fantasy, especially if you are still trying to aim for this, but just casually add more "fantasy" elements,  people are going to complain and that's totally understandable why. If i was always hardcore fan of these games and put lots of money into these game just to support devs, and they do 180, it's perfectly natural response, because if it wasn't for people like that fan, there would be no Battlefield, no Dice studio and probably not EA (so to speak, you get my point). It's thanks to these fans who put you know, their money into your products, that you can actually exist and make games.

    Now, i'm not saying because of that, you should always just do what fans ask you to (see my previous point), but at the very least, you can do something like, make a public statement like "We would just like to thank all fans for their support, we really appreciate it, but this time, we would like to do something a little different, hope you can understand that", instead of going "don't like it, don't buy it", shows FAR more respect, and i'm pretty sure fans will at the very least respect that and overall image would be completely different.

    So yeah, i really do think people should stop thinking about just how to educate others, but listen to their arguments of the opposite side and try to see if you can actually get educated yourself as well, you know, show some respect, and they will react differently as well.

  • sacboi
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    sacboi interpolator

    Ashervisalis said:                      

    Everybody and their dog knows there weren't many women fighting in WW2, though there were some.

    Not quite, their contribution was not only sheer numbers (refer to my earlier comments) but also diversity of frontline roles. Additionally the RAF employed female pilots, ferrying aircraft from the factory to the end customer and in some instances straight to the front, though the job itself was deemed a "non combat" designation nevertheless entailed hazardous working conditions. 

    Some sobering facts to bear in mind is that these aircraft were unarmed plus without navigational instruments, so flying solo by basic map/compass reading whether four engine bomber or single seat fighter either across the Atlantic or too the local air station, had acquired over time a commensurate attrition rate.   

    Pretty much an unsung extraordinary endeavour, in my book.

  • Blond
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    Blond polycounter lvl 4
    seth. said:
    Blond said:
    ... and diminishing their sales by 63% in their UK chart since BFOne...

    You do realise that number is physical sales only and that BO4 is 59% down on physical sales compared to CoD WW2 in the UK also ?

    People aren't buying physical copies anymore, the digital sales figures when released will show the full picture. I'm not going to bother getting into the rest of it about whether I agree with the Stockholm management decisions or not.

    Also with regard to the subject being ignored, why would Devs want to post on a public forum ragging other Devs? Seems like a shitty thing to do if you ask me, fuck off to Kotaku why dont you :)



    Easy boy.
    The fact that  you are working in an industry doesn't mean you cannot denounce or point odd practices, weird marketing decisions and product/brand mismanagement,

    Especially if said mismanagement will hurt the sales of said products, directly affecting the employments and job stability of the artists who worked on it.

    I'm not criticising the artists who worked on these games, they probably had no input at all concerning the issue. This is a Publisher/Editor criticism.  It's extremely weird to be working in an industry with that type of mentality you have; 

    ''OMG don't criticize, we should not talk about issues affecting the gamers and our consumers since we're working in this industry (????!) ''
    This is something I've been seeing a lot on PC unfortunately.


  • BIGTIMEMASTER
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    Listen, we critique each others artwork which we all spend so much time and creative energy to create, because in spite of the fact that is can sometimes hurt, we know that it makes us better. There is no reason we can't review and critique popular games that come out. I am sure the director of the latest Battlefield game is not going to cry themselves to sleep because some random 3d hobbyist is saying that they could have done better. Any leader worth their salt does not surround themselves with yes-men. They surround themselves with diversity, because what is true in biology is true everywhere else. Diversity is a prerequisite for survival. That is the value of differing opinions. If you aren't willing to challenge your own opinion against others, why should anybody care what you think? Just hide in your hole. Grown adult humans can keep control of their emotions, and not lose perspective, creating fights from things not worth fighting about.

    As mentioned, I am in full agreement that the controversy surrounding BFV has nothing to do with a need for historical accuracy in games. It's jus ta matter of execution. Historical accuracy is not the argument at all. The argument is one being made by sexist, who are saying "why do you have to concoct fantasies to push your SJW agenda?" And I am in full agreement, though I am no sexist. WHat I am saying is you don't need fantasies to show ignorant people that women are just as worthy as men, you can do so by planting your story in reality and only stretching reality for artistic reasons. If this had been done, there would not be so much controversy. There would be a few sexist saying, "how come they always got to put women in my war games?" and a bunch of other people saying "yeah but that shit is real dawg." 


  • Ashervisalis
  • claydough
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    Aabel said:
    Depictions of historical events tend to attract people who care about accuracy above all else. It's the nature of such things.

    So why isn't there any revisionist controversy over  the liberties taken with WW2 during the release of "Overlord".
    Accuracy above all else when one is butthurt over feminism?
    ( perhaps I am wrong and there was actually an army of the undead unleashed after the invasion of Normandy? )
  • Amsterdam Hilton Hotel
    Blond said:
    Easy boy.
    That's rude.
    seth. said:
    easy boy... lulz fuck you kiddo :D
      So is that.

    As I said upthread: what positive outcome will we reach discussing thorny social topics in public? I can't quite identify one.
    Yet a downside is already apparent, which is that we now have multiple posters insulting each other over some external issue that none of us control.

    Can we keep the mood a bit lighter? :)
  • SonicBlue
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    SonicBlue polycounter lvl 6
    What difference does it make, most of the time you are shooting people from a long enough range that before you could recognize if it's a woman or a man who you are shooting at, it's already dead.

    I think their mistake was to make it a WWII game, mixing real events with too fictional characters, I'm pretty sure very few people would have said anything if it was a "normal" post apocalyptic game, and you have people who are forced to fight with everything they have, even enrolling a woman without an arm in their infantry division.
  • AlecMoody
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    Fundamentally these are entertainment products that make playing war fun (and I'm not saying that is necessarily bad). It feels very patchwork to enforce a need for authenticity when talking about the gender of the player's avatar but totally ignoring that a video game != a simulation of war, combat, loss, desperation, pain, death, etc.
  • Zocky
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    Zocky polycounter lvl 8
    but for some people it IS fun when devs aim for realism or "simulation", as you put it, so what you are saying is basically just your idea of fun, but not everyone shares that. And if series is known for more "simulation" approach for like 5+ games, and then you have guys wielding katanas and what not, in the middle of europe or usa or such, in this new one, of course it's weird and "not fun" to those people, because it's going against what series was known for. Me and you may not like this "simulation", but again, you can't just say everyone should be like us.

    And also, we seems to keep being stuck on the whole "women" problem, it's also about people with prosthetic arms being on the front lines not having problems dealing with full blown soliders, guys wielding katanas (from what i seen), or, at least that and more seems to be what people complain about. Subject seems to go beyond just "women in ww2" from what i can see at least.
  • Amsterdam Hilton Hotel
    There's nothing wrong with preferring an aesthetic of more strict authenticity, and there's a genre that caters to it, consisting of ArmA, Red Orchestra, Squad and its Post Scriptum extended universe, Verdun, and so on. There's also nothing wrong with preferring a more idealized aesthetic that enhances or de-emphasizes certain qualities of the experience to achieve a different result. There's enough variety of taste in the world that no approach will please everyone. Should a series have to be tied to the aesthetic approach its previous iterations embraced? Just because we might prefer an idealized aesthetic, do we have to denigrate a realistic aesthetic, or vice versa? I don't really think so.
  • Tejay
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    Tejay polycounter lvl 8
    Most people aren't opposed to female characters or some divergence from historical accuracy. What they are opposed to is bad writing or forced inclusion that feels janky. It's sort of like an uncanny valley for people/characters. You can tell early these days when they want to push in an agenda instead of a good product. It's always character or story with all the depth of a cardboard cut out. They want to include people but without any offense being taken, which results in characters starting near perfect and never facing challenges or adversity.

    The way i see it. They decided to push an agenda that a majority of their old target audience didn't care about. When they complained they were met with the response of being told not to buy it. They changed their target demographic and told the old one to fob off and they did. Their new demographic they catered to didn't pay off in sales enough to counter those lost from telling their old audience to bugger off.

    Devs telling people to not buy their game or just insulting their consumer base is just a bad business. It usually follows with a tank in their stock and then sales. Treat your customers like shit and you'll be paid back the same kind of response.



  • JoshuaG
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    People complaining about being able to play as a woman, along customizing your character the way you can, in multiplayer is no different than people arguing if Halo 1-3's multiplayer is canon or not. It's just multiplayer. They might as well just say that the multiplayer for BF5 is taking place in a VR room in the future. I don't remember seeing people complain about how in BF4 your soldier can be an American, wear some sort of orange camo in a snowy region, while also carrying a Marlin Model 1894 outfitted with picatinny rails, and he can also fly a jet one second then jump into a tank the next.
  • VelvetElvis
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    JoshuaG said:
    People complaining about being able to play as a woman, along customizing your character the way you can, in multiplayer is no different than people arguing if Halo 1-3's multiplayer is canon or not. It's just multiplayer. They might as well just say that the multiplayer for BF5 is taking place in a VR room in the future. I don't remember seeing people complain about how in BF4 your soldier can be an American, wear some sort of orange camo in a snowy region, while also carrying a Marlin Model 1894 outfitted with picatinny rails, and he can also fly a jet one second then jump into a tank the next.
    What? You mean I can't eject from a jet, quick scope snipe an enemy jet's pilot, then land in the enemy's jet set and continue to fly away in real life?
  • JedTheKrampus
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    I mean, you could certainly try... Just make sure to film the attempt so I can see it.
  • sacboi
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    sacboi interpolator

    Tejay said:

    They decided to push an agenda that a majority of their old target audience didn't care about. When they complained they were met with the response of being told not to buy it. They changed their target demographic and told the old one to fob off and they did. Their new demographic they catered to didn't pay off in sales enough to counter those lost from telling their old audience to bugger off.

    Devs telling people to not buy their game or just insulting their consumer base is just a bad business. It usually follows with a tank in their stock and then sales. Treat your customers like shit and you'll be paid back the same kind of response.

    Shit! wasn't aware of THAT.

    Gotta link for clarification?

  • Tejay
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    Tejay polycounter lvl 8
    So the trailer released with massive backlash. Looking at the dislike ratio being 300k likes to 500k dislikes. Many stating the historical accuracy and sjw agenda driven being a turn off in some more...colourful language.


    The articles about response from EA/DICE 'Accept it or don't buy the game':

    https://www.pcgamer.com/backlash-against-women-in-battlefield-5-is-not-ok-ea-executive-says/
    https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/271407-ea-on-the-battlefield-v-backlash-accept-it-or-dont-buy-the-game
    https://www.polygon.com/2018/6/13/17458286/battlefield-women-star-wars-rick-morty
    The title from polygon doesn't reflect the link at all. The article title is : Creatives are finally telling manbabies to stay home.
    The press really rubbed home the insults on the disappointed audience , fueling the fire.

    Looking into even further, it seems the original points of contention seem to be the straw that broke the camels back. Because a lot of hatred turned back into the usual stick about EA cash grab nature, citing Battlefield 1 and  battlefront 2 disappointment as an example of what to expect.

    The pre orders are a disappointment
    Ea exec departs the company too at this point.

    https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/battlefield-v-pre-order-numbers-disappointing/
    https://www.vg247.com/2018/08/16/battlefield-5-weak-pre-orders-report/

     They delayed the game so as not to compete with COD and Red dead:
    https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-08-30-battlefield-5-delayed-a-month
    http://fortune.com/2018/08/30/ea-electronic-arts-stock-battlefield-5/

    In the end this is just a hot mess.

  • sacboi
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    sacboi interpolator

    Gawd!

    I would've thought we could all play nice by now, poised at the very cusp of a third decade into the 21st century.

    Makes one want to rewind the clock back to a more genteel age, when my cousins and I were simply blowing our minds playing Pong.

    All this kerfuffle over, as I'd expressed further up this thread, that...

    "FFS...it's only a game! which by sheer definition this medium hardly has a reputation for generating output that'll typically correlate accurately with historical events."

    Though I have too say, despite everything and as an enthused fan of the franchise happily the art remains a feast for the eyes, so kudos to all involved.

    EDIT:

    Oh...yeah, thanks for the links BTW was quite a read, particularly this bit:

    "Why the Whining Falls Flat

    The problem with the “historical accuracy” argument is simple: Battlefield is not, and has never been, a historically accurate game. When PC Gamer sat down with a historian to ask about Battlefield 1, said historian noted a laundry list of historical inaccuracies, including:
    •Incomplete weapon operation animations
    •Improperly decorated uniforms
    •Inaccurate depictions of house-to-house fighting
    •Far fewer weapon jams than in reality
    •Inaccurate depiction, use, and availability of automatic weapons

    And that’s before we get to the really big stuff, like, say, using a wrench to repair a horse. This was later patched so that you can only repair a horse with a wrench if someone else is riding it, because obviously that was the problem. Dice’s firm commitment to historical accuracy demanded nothing less."

    ...had me rolling on the floor in bellyach guffaws, no less.

    Just proves my point, it's only a game folks. :) 

  • BIGTIMEMASTER
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    BIGTIMEMASTER sublime tool
    Maybe they thought they were doing something akin to Nike's bold move with Kaepernick. But's it not the same. Making a positive statement about what you stand for is not the same thing as demonizing those against what you are for.

    I expect dealing with the man-babies day in and day out is tiresome, but I wouldn't expect the directorial team is making decision that emotionally. I usually expect these guys to have really solid long term plans developed over long experience and massive data, but I can't see how this is beneficial in the short or long term. I am sure they know a lot of stuff I don't know, but usually when you watch what the successful people are doing, it makes sense.
  • JedTheKrampus
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    Why are people are making a big stink about "historical accuracy" now, when Battlefield One had many experimental and prototype weapons in it, some of which don't even still exist in the form of full guns today? There were a few complaints about the lower viability of bolt-action weapons and melee due to all the automatic weapons making it more or less a reskin of previous games, but nothing on the same scale.

    I'll give you a hint if you haven't figured it out yet: it's because many of the original people making the argument are dogwhistling misogynists who don't care about history and are pushing the same antifeminist agenda they've been pushing for years. Battlefield has always been an extremely game-y game, especially recently, and expecting the games to prioritize absolute historical accuracy over trying to be fun for everyone or following the tried and true gameplay formula is foolish.

    In my analysis there are only two possible reasons why Dice PR would have responded the way they did. The first situation, and perhaps more likely, is that they thought the people complaining were capable of being argued or reasoned with in any way. In fact, these people are mainly interested in being angry, and can never be made to understand that refusing to play an arguably enjoyable game because it has women in it is just as silly as refusing to participate in life because it has women in it. The second situation, which is perhaps less likely, is that they realize that huge, vocal parts of their fanbase are, in fact, involuntarily celibate manbabies, and if they don't get those people out of their fanbase yesterday, they'll spread their views among normal people who play the games and the series will soon become associated with white supremacists and mass shooters.

    In the second case, it appears that they did too little, too late. The only way to salvage the situation, and I say this as a shareholder, is to take the gloves off and call out misogyny and hate for what it is. If you're an EA recruiter and you are reading this, I am happy to offer my services as a professional shitposter highly-paid social media consultant if you are interested in specific advice, or perhaps a custom-run Twitter account. First piece of advice is free: understand what it is that you're up against. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y8XgGhXkTQ

    Deplatforming is actually pretty simple to do, and it works, but you have to be careful and you have to do it right. Instead of saying your intent was to provide players with a sense of pride and accomplishment, say "please direct all death threats to 1600 pennsylvania avenue washington dc. thanks" for the entire description of your next trailer on Youtube. Instead of saying it's "not OK" to harass women on Twitter, say "what's your address and cell phone number? i want to mail you some vintage crystal pepsi. i hear fascists love it." What won't work is any strategy that involves "civility" or "decency." If you aren't creating a spectacle, or if a large portion of the spectacle you created is how utterly and totally corporate your PR team sounds, you've already failed. Just remember that every second that you don't hire me is a second that you're hemorrhaging money and turning into a corncob. If you somehow aren't desperate enough to hire me now, you will be in a year and a half.
  • Eric Chadwick
  • Jonas Ronnegard
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    Jonas Ronnegard Polycount Sponsor
    That's a load of drama right there,

    Sure some comments to customers was made that wasn't in anyone's best interest, which triggered the shit show we are looking at now, but even before that with the first trailer there was a lot of shit talking going around, I would say it wasn't as focused and well made as previous trailers, so I can understand some people not liking it, but if the first thing you got from that trailer was that there was women in it and it wasn't historically correct, then your priorities are clearly visible.

    There was women on the battlefield even if not many, so you are still looking at a possible scenario, while in that trailer you can probably spot 100+ things that are not even close to being possible or believable, so maybe not the thing to highlight?
  • PixelMasher
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    PixelMasher polycount lvl 666
    I think a lot of the communication problems and supposed issues would have been solved if they had branded this BAD COMPANY: WW2. Then they would have had a way wider range of leeway in terms of tone and style. I think people were expecting the usual bleach bypass color palette and same old locations, just with fancier graphics ala COD ww2 and band of brothers/saving private ryan. 

    I dont really care either way, I am getting the game and am going to have a hell of a lot of fun blaaaaastin' people and blowing shit up.
  • Ryusaki
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    Ryusaki polycounter lvl 3
    sacboi said:
    The problem with the “historical accuracy” argument is simple: Battlefield is not, and has never been, a historically accurate game. When PC Gamer sat down with a historian to ask about Battlefield 1, said historian noted a laundry list of historical inaccuracies, including:

    •Incomplete weapon operation animations
    •Improperly decorated uniforms
    •Inaccurate depictions of house-to-house fighting
    •Far fewer weapon jams than in reality
    •Inaccurate depiction, use, and availability of automatic weapons



    But this was all on the list of things people complained about, over and over again.  The fact that battlefield has never been very historically accurate doesn't mean that people don't complain about that all the time. Of course there is a big part of the community who wants exactly that, and always wanted that. How many competent military games with this kind of scope are there?
    Why are people are making a big stink about "historical accuracy" now, when Battlefield One had many experimental and prototype weapons in it, some of which don't even still exist in the form of full guns today? There were a few complaints about the lower viability of bolt-action weapons and melee due to all the automatic weapons making it more or less a reskin of previous games, but nothing on the same scale.

    I don't know where you get your info's but every criticism of Battlefield 1 i heard/read from actual gamers had this covered among other more gameplay specific things of course. Especially the reskin comment.

    I'll give you a hint if you haven't figured it out yet: it's because many of the original people making the argument are dogwhistling misogynists who don't care about history and are pushing the same antifeminist agenda they've been pushing for years. Battlefield has always been an extremely game-y game, especially recently, and expecting the games to prioritize absolute historical accuracy over trying to be fun for everyone or following the tried and true gameplay formula is foolish.

    You know whats even more foolish?
    Antagonizing 90% of your core audience by treating them like an extremist group of misogynist and or racist when in fact they are not.
    Using political ideology as a shield against legitimate forms of criticism from your customers also reeks like a specially detestable form of hypocrisy.



  • sacboi
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    sacboi interpolator
    @Ryusaki...umm that adendum fragment was a quote from a link that @Tejay kindly put up after I'd asked for verification about the studio's response I initially was unaware of, too that segment of fanbase who'd vented their feelings in no uncertain terms.

    I re-posted the comment because I thought it absolutly funny when read in it's entirety, especially the part about repairing a horse with a monkey wrench.

    Such uneccessary aggressiveness over nothing, giving a kind of Monty Python'esq feel to the whole episode.

    Anyway I invite you too read them, they may provide additional insight behind the controversy.
  • Shrike
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    Shrike polycounter lvl 6
    @sacboi I stand corrected. Thanks man.
    Hardly, Its still 10000:1 or so in combat roles, that would fall into margin of error in a statistic

    Dice was really hard on the virtue signaling there, the entire thing they pulled was just poor and ridiculous. Mocking their fans on a large panel afterwards shows that they apparently didn't learn a thing from it either

    Then come all the typical identity politics loud mouths and spin it as people were hating on women, despite the easily provable fact that no other game is getting the same criticism. Nobody wanted a realistic battlefield but a authentic one, that is a big difference. If they made steampunk WW2 that would have been perfectly fitting. The plane flying 5m above ground and the katana guy was equally ridiculous.  

    I have BF5 and classes are 1:1 male female by default and I would not really mind if it weren't for the voice lines which completely take you out of the experience. The female death voice lines are insanely penetrating and loud, often comical, and you think WTF or jesus christ every time. The first time I heard one I thought I was in a scripted side-quest with some action off screen, I was so confused.

    Id say its much more about the attitude about pushing identity politics into a quote authentic WW2 game from dice than the actual game content as it stands.
  • poopipe
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    poopipe interpolator
    It's all sorted now - the sound of people whining about women has been drowned out by the sound of people complaining about the new patch. 

    Business as usual for the bf community :) 
  • PollySong
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    PollySong polycounter lvl 9
    I'm amazed that I'm still amazed that people actually get angry about things like this. It's a game. Is it fun? If yes, then play it, otherwise don't. Battlefield is not accurate, was never meant to be (yes, I worked on early Battlefields). If the inclusion of women makes more girls/women feel included and want to play the game, that's a good thing. Instead people with plastic models of tanks in their basement get angry over "accuracy" and everyone is a bit sadder for it.
  • PyrZern
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    PyrZern polycounter lvl 7
    ... Please let me know when some companies make a videogame about a certain battle in ancient Japan/China where a town was attacked by enemies, while all the guys had already been conscripted to fight off in a far away campaign, and so the women, the elder, and children had to pick up arms to defend their home/lives... But then the videogame company decided to throw in a young man as a protagonist leading group of women and kids against enemy instead.
  • Shrike
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    Shrike polycounter lvl 6
    PollySong said:
    I'm amazed that I'm still amazed that people actually get angry about things like this. It's a game. Is it fun? If yes, then play it, otherwise don't. Battlefield is not accurate, was never meant to be (yes, I worked on early Battlefields). If the inclusion of women makes more girls/women feel included and want to play the game, that's a good thing. Instead people with plastic models of tanks in their basement get angry over "accuracy" and everyone is a bit sadder for it.
    I'm amazed that you have such a strong opinion with only surface level knowledge about the topic and neither bothered to read the thread nor understand the difference between accuracy and authenticity.

    On a side node, 70% of people disliked on youtube. Thats not the 0.1% of "miniature collectors". Its not about what is in the game, its about attitude, and those 70% of people did not want to be shoved 2018 identity politics in their face in a video game, let alone a WW2 game and be mocked and insulted for disliking it. RDR2 has many more strong female characters in a authentic historic setting and nobody complained one bit.
  • PollySong
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    PollySong polycounter lvl 9
    Shrike said:
    PollySong said:
    I'm amazed that I'm still amazed that people actually get angry about things like this. It's a game. Is it fun? If yes, then play it, otherwise don't. Battlefield is not accurate, was never meant to be (yes, I worked on early Battlefields). If the inclusion of women makes more girls/women feel included and want to play the game, that's a good thing. Instead people with plastic models of tanks in their basement get angry over "accuracy" and everyone is a bit sadder for it.
    I'm amazed that you have such a strong opinion with only surface level knowledge about the topic and neither bothered to read the thread nor understand the difference between accuracy and authenticity.

    On a side node, 70% of people disliked on youtube. Thats not the 0.1% of "miniature collectors". Its not about what is in the game, its about attitude, and those 70% of people did not want to be shoved 2018 identity politics in their face in a video game, let alone a WW2 game and be mocked and insulted for disliking it. RDR2 has many more strong female characters in a authentic historic setting and nobody complained one bit.
    Ok, seems like I hit a nerve. That's my point, it's neither accurate nor authentic. It's a game, it's meant to be fun. Youtube is not a cross section of society, even in the gaming community. Whatever % is liking something means almost nothing, it's an echo chamber. Here's how I see it: it's a game, they wanted to include more people (women and girls), so that more people could enjoy it. And you want to take that away because... what? It's not exactly what you wanted and then someone said something (you interpret as) mean and directed at you? Why do you even care what the developer's say? Ignore them and play the game. You're the one bringing up identity politics. Imagine if people started screaming on the internet when popular movie franchises started having women main characters, that would be just as silly. Oh wait.

    Dammit, I did it again, wrote something on the internet, and now I regret it.
  • PollySong
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    PollySong polycounter lvl 9
    I'll leave you to it, but think about this: do you enjoy the game? If not, don't play it. Nobody owes you anything, you're not entitled to a game that does exactly what you want. A game where you spend 18-19 years growing up in a suburb, then gets killed 20 seconds after landing on omaha beach because you couldn't see where you were supposed to go (and then it uninstalls itself and can never be played again) would actually be interesting, but Battlefield is not it.
  • pior
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    pior polycount lvl 666
    Heya @Pollysong - I'll admit I didn't really want to get into this either but hey, might as well try to formulate my thoughts. I'll probably regret it too :D

    "Here's how I see it: it's a game, they wanted to include more people (women and girls), so that more people could enjoy it. And you want to take that away because... what? "

    So, to be fair that's not really the issue here. The problem is Dice/EA reacting very defensively to their audience disliking a trailer featuring robotic prosthetics, a katana wielding soldier and a main protagonist with Scene Kid facepaint. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and it's okay to not like something (I personally think that the trailer was pretty cool from a visual standpoint - almost like a steampunk retelling of ww2. The work by the guys at Dice is always pretty damn impressive !). But the EA CCO calling the audience "uneducated" was an awful PR move especially since a good chunk of their audience is actually pretty well educated on the topic of WWII history.

    They could have just branded the game as Bad Company 3 and then everything would have been a fit. Heck, the trailer could have ended with Terry Crews and Sly jumping in to blow shit up in style wearing Steampunk WWII cosplay outfits and it would have been awesome.

    On top of that, what makes it worse is the fact that they called people "uneducated" ... while themselves had no problem genderbending a war episode that actually happened. This alone is quite a slap in the face of the people who died on duty imho. Again nothing wrong with genderbending in and of itself, it's a fun trope and can be refreshing ; but they shouldn't bring "education" into the mix at all then.

    In short I don't think the backlash comes from having a female player character option in a Battlefield game. The problem was the arrogance of the devs/publisher around the issue - and from there customers just voted with their wallets.

    (Lastly I personally never understood the whole "I want a protagonist to look like me in order to relate to the story". Heck, my favorite movie is about a girl going to impossible lengths to straighten up for the mess her boyfriend put himself in ... and I identify with neither of the characters. I understand that little boys and girls want to project themselves into cartoon characters, but this is not the demographic here to begin with since the game is 17+ so imho that's a moot point.)

    If anything this is a pretty interesting case of bad PR in the age of social media whining.

    [edit] for those curious, some info about the rewritten event in the campaign :
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_heavy_water_sabotage#Fiction,_film,_and_video_coverage
  • Ryusaki
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    Ryusaki polycounter lvl 3
    This argument about representation makes absolutely no sense. Fact is that the amount of females enjoying historical military FPS is low compared to men. It was always like this and it will stay like this.  The females who do play them, play them no matter if there are woman in the game or not.
    There is absolutely no indication that females don't like FPS games because they are not represented as protagonists.
    That is actually an insult to the intelligence of most female gamer. Putting a woman on the cover of an WW2 FPS game does not change anything.
    The numbers don't lie, the core audience followed the instructions of Patrick Soderlund and did not buy the product, the mass of new female players didn't show up, the stock price went down and now 3 weeks after release the game is 50% off. 
    That is not the end result of an echo chamber, the only people who seem to be stuck in one are some people over at Dice and the loud majority of the gaming journalists.


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