Vent: Art Contract rates in forum are getting ridiculous
polycounter lvl 4
do any experienced 3d artists in our community work for $10-15 USD/day creating “AAA quality” assets? if so i’d love to talk!
Foxie Ventures keeps posting contract jobs that equate to the amount indicated above. It appears they are HQ’d out of Australia but I’ve been to Australia- no one could afford to live there for rates this low.
And to be fair, they aren’t the only ones- there are plenty of posts like these with unrealistic and/or unethical rates - but Foxie seems to be the most common offender. I feel compelled to call out repeatedly bad behavior.
And since we cant call them out in the freelance threads let’s do it here.
Has anyone here ever worked with/for Foxie ventures?
- - -
just to be clear
this assess comes from my 15+ years working in the gaming industry as an artist, animator, designer in roles ranging from lead to director (and now owner of a small studio).
so i know what production takes in terms of method, workflow, process, time and cost. even when comparing to the cheapest globally (places where you can find experienced artists willing to work for 80-120 USD per day like vietnam, south/central america or ukraine).
But Foxie’s posted rates make me wonder if they don’t understand this. or if they are merely being mercenary and opportunistic jackwagons.
Foxie Ventures keeps posting contract jobs that equate to the amount indicated above. It appears they are HQ’d out of Australia but I’ve been to Australia- no one could afford to live there for rates this low.
And to be fair, they aren’t the only ones- there are plenty of posts like these with unrealistic and/or unethical rates - but Foxie seems to be the most common offender. I feel compelled to call out repeatedly bad behavior.
And since we cant call them out in the freelance threads let’s do it here.
Has anyone here ever worked with/for Foxie ventures?
- - -
just to be clear
this assess comes from my 15+ years working in the gaming industry as an artist, animator, designer in roles ranging from lead to director (and now owner of a small studio).
so i know what production takes in terms of method, workflow, process, time and cost. even when comparing to the cheapest globally (places where you can find experienced artists willing to work for 80-120 USD per day like vietnam, south/central america or ukraine).
But Foxie’s posted rates make me wonder if they don’t understand this. or if they are merely being mercenary and opportunistic jackwagons.
Replies
Link for context
https://polycount.com/discussion/205533/paid-1350-dino-textures-aaa-quality
The moderation team's general opinion is:
It's important to realize this forum has a global reach; rates are not the same everywhere. It is your responsibility as individual professionals to evaluate the client, and decide if their rate matches yours.
and understood- and if this problem was merely an infrequent outlier i’d be happy to abstain.
but this undervaluing of art is becoming and more more proliferate and this forum poster is leading the pack.
I understand that there are various rates globally, probably better than most. and there are no places I am aware of where a rate of $10-15 per day is attainable. if there were, and they did good work and were numerous enough to make an impact the AAA publishers or groups like Keywords or Virtuous would snatch them up.
Art is being undervalued, All over the place. Globally. Just google it- you’ll be reading for days. If we don’t stay vigilant/verbal on our own behalf, who will??
Clients will learn thru experience when they get crap by paying crap rates.
But I think it more complex than what you state- It’s more of a cycle where companies/clients learn this lesson over time as they grow. then small upstarts enter the space, and the process repeats.
But inasmuch as this is capitalism at work, we too are players in this- it’s not about what a client/employer will pay but rather what current standards contractor/employee are willing to work for.
so again, honest question: are any 3d artists or 3d animators out there interested in a rate $10-15/day?
10-15$ usually means your employer might buy you a 5$ lunch and 5$ dinner.
Why someone would take such a "job" depends on a number of factors, their artistic background, the market and their motivation to accept such a rate.
Many do it in the hope that it might lead to a more permanent role and that has worked for some people. Canada also has a large immigrant population, most of these people have a really difficult time getting work because of work permit issues and a Labor market impact assessment that makes its challenging for employers to hire them outright.
Not to say that hiring such an employee who is truly experienced and talented isn't possible, but then again not everyone is similarly skilled and justifying that to the labor department of the government isn't easy.
So an internship might seem lucrative to them.
Sometimes its part of revenue share when the project is gold and makes profit. So a sort of entrepreneurial commitment between a group of artists rather than a job, everyone has a fair stake in the outcome and an equal amount of risk.
But this is a revenue share arrangement.
Overall I don't know of any genuinely skilled and truly talented artists that would take such a rate for a job where their only gain is 10-15$/day.
I mean if they lived in a place with lower cost of living, their rates would be lower by comparison but they clearly know their worth. It would definitely be higher than this given the work involved and time spent.
And if they haven't gotten the job that is truly worthy of their time and effort, they keep making art.
lol- maybe not crime but definitely something that doesn’t require years of commitment to growing skills & a body of work.
8 euros per hour is more than 10USD per hor
these guys were looking to pay that per day, not per hour.
@JunkieKong : i agree that they are not australia based as they claim. they are likely in malaysia, thailand, taiwan or vietnam, or similar. But a big part of being counted in this industry is being legit/accountable. We are seeing this more and more - individuals or int’l startup studios with no bkg/history
then a client loses a bundle or their IP gets leaked- or a vendor doesn’t get paid. What did they expect?!? there is no replacement for reputation.
foxie studios flagged my company account here as ‘abuse’.
nicely played, is that all you got? do better, because i sure will.
i’m not 100% sure but it looks like it. im not going to waste my time digging further. bigger fish to fry in the real world
saw your LI post the other day. looks like you have some cool stuff going on- congrats!
Hmm, can't find a user by the name of grace5.
haha! fair enough 😄
but even in construction / building, rule of law applies in the USA and many other countries. And those who abuse it, or short the process in quality to save on cost, will get what they pay for. in terms of reputation, future profit and public good will.
if all was straightforward as you describe i would agree. but it was not.
the rate/fee was posted in USD, not ant other currency. last i checked the AU has their own currency. so the poster did intend it (whether objectively or subjectively) for western audience. and even if the intended mark was EU the rate was still far below any indie rates. even CZ, SP and Eastern EU rates are higher.
additionally i’ve lived in the AU. and i can say the exchange rate is not significant enough to merit the difference (or low rate) if in fact the company was based in the AU (which I assure you they are not).
great discussion though.
just saw this post. sorry i never followed up.
Everything you point put is relevant. for sure. And thank you for a very thoughtful response/engagement
In closing, it all boils down to this: everything in life really is simple. ‘This’ included. It is People who make it complicated.
thanks again.
Of course, this would break down quickly once that one guy decides to undercut and work for $5 dollars an hour cheaper than the collective. That is where government ordinance would need to come into play. And with the way workers rights have been going, that certainly wouldnt end well.
And then there us also the problem of artistic discipline. The type of art a person asks for can be anything from 3d environments to stop motion using only band aids and balloons. How do we "fairly" distribute work that is requested from our collective agency?
BUT, and here is the clincher: Actors in the film industry are successfully doing this. They have a guild / union that enforces a wage floor and other health and safety requirements. You've got all types of talent, skill, and appearances in acting. If they can do it, why can't we??
In my opinion, its because no one has the cajones or the resources to pull it off. You need mettle, money, and buy in from a large group of artists. I've never met someone with even a single one of those.
a consortium- you mean like a studio? there are some that went this route successfully but they had to get massive and distributed with Asian labor to pull it off (keywords, virtuos. Massive, Liquid)
then uou say you want government sanctioned regulation or unionization ?!?
name one effing branch of government anywhere that did anything well. and as for unions, they sure did a bang up job of stopping the race to offshore/outsource and the race to the bottom of commodity pricing.
I’ll admit I dont have the answer to these issues- but what you propose didnt work in the 80’s, and they wont work now.
nice anecdotal.
The studio I personally work at started in LA but ultimately ended up opening up their production studio in Vancouver for this very reason. I spoke with another Japanese company which was opening a studio here 2 years ago for this very reason.
I say your claim that it did well is Anecdotal- as the net result over time is still TBD.
Though in your expressed case it arguably upped the retention (In my opinion it merely clawed back what it lost in the last 2 decades, though much is now under foreign backed/owned investment) one still has to consider the offset of this when compared to the taxes NOT collected, against the cost incurred for this Subsidized Incentive (and the fact that foreign owned/backed will see the profits go to those foreign countries banks, not Canada's)... meaning that in the long run the cost of this will be incurred by the taxpayers (nothing is truly free). history says that for the long run, the net result of arrangements like this will be a loss for the economy.
Regardless, this is not what I started this thread about. You are coming at it from a Worker/Employment POV. My post was illustrating potential clients and their expectation of a $10/manday for professional level work. What you describe has no Impact on this- or very little at best.
No Worries- although your topic appears one we wont agree on, its interesting and so possibly worth discussing. But it just doesn't answer my question about the RIDICULOUS clients' budget expectations: what are they based on ???? (which is really just me venting into a scream hole).