My workflow for years is the same.. And i do near to zero retopo... I do a rough base with topo in mind... A volume sculpt... Than i use lvl2 as new base... Do some modeling on top... This is my sculpt geo and my lowres base...
Quite a nice read, I think this point is very important "You don’t need a CS degree to be a developer"
the 3 most successful developers that I know personally that went on to make their own companies and products didn't go to university, they were already beyond that before graduating high school, and compared to the past where university was a must it is now mostly seen as a way to get a Visa for many, so many choose to go the self learning route, overall people have access to learning material at a much younger age then they did in the past.
I agree with you since people can now get the knowledge via online course or good Youtube channels(some are pure gems). When i was still teaching the main thing i notice is that we were not adapting fast enough to the ever evolving tech because of the excessive bureaucracy.
One thing I've definitely noticed is that even the most technically versed artists can sometime become completely blind to their own assumptions.
I think the Halo2/Pavlovich talk is an example of that. By focusing so much on trying to automate linear steps at all costs using a bruteforce approach, crucial aspects of art iteration get completely thrown under the rug (not to mention that assets produced that way scale down very badly).
Many game artists indeed assume that "Sculpting a model is already enough but no you have to retopologise it so you work twice on the same model, then you have to UV unwrap it, paint it, rig it and finally export it" - and pipeline and habits end up being built around precisely that.
I tend to believe that studios end up getting locked into this kind of pipeline (and the logical need to automate it) because artists don't take the time to consider that maybe, just maybe, sculpting/highpoly modeling doesn't have to be the first step. It may be fun and produce fancy screenshots, and people budgeting big productions have (or think they have) the ressources for that sort of stuff ; but focusing on creating something lightweight that can be exported to the game in just a day or two (using, shock ! horror ! clean polygon modeling rather than a dense polygon soup that simply cannot be exported at all without heavy post-processing) is infinitely more valuable that trying to develop some magic autoLowpoly / autoUnwrap / autoBake button. Or at the very least, should come first - because lightweight, easily editable work is the key to fluid iteration ; bruteforce processing of models isn't.
Now of course this isn't necessarily true for all games, and can vary with art style, target platform, and even the stage of production a project is currently at. But there is definitely a certain widespread stubbornness among game artists when it comes to how things are supposed to be done (because X or Y big studio said they do things that way in their Youtube video), and this can be dangerous.
So, what I am getting at is that ... it's not necessarily the tools that are causing the friction and intertia. Sometimes, it is the assumptions on how things are supposed to be done that get in the way of working in a fluid, efficient and iterative manner.
Great post with lot of good info and i remember i saw a pdf paper about a Korean developer who was developing a promising prototype of a kind of hybrid sculpting approach, when he brush a sculpting stroke an underlying operation was drawing low poly mesh that follow contour with excellent topology.
Trying to find that paper and i have no success so far but it's seem like the closest thing to a dream retopo workflow.
I still dream of the day we get auto uv-mapping. That's all I want gone or automated in the 3D pipeline.
Modeling is fun. Texturing is fun. Setting up lighting is fun. But then getting to the part where I gotta start hitting planar/cylindrical/pelt unwrap on every single polygon? And on top of that, having to watch for stretching/overlapping errors? That stuff makes me depressed.
Agree that has to be one of the most frustrating part of a pipeline and i thought a few years ago that Ptex would solve this in the gaming pipeline but so far it doesn't look like anything is going to be done.
No wonder so many artists get ridden with RSI problems that some time even lead to abandoning their career. Our hands, wrists and fingers are not made for this insane amount of repetitive assault day after day and in a sitting position where blood circulation is compromised.
3 of our team members here were seriously having problem with tendonitis and all in their 20. I also have RSI problem and a few years ago i thought my career was going to end abruptly but i was able to continue by changing the way i work. The thing that save me the most was the use of a space navigator.
Doing UVs is one of the fields that has improved drastically over the years. You can complain that you have to do it at all, but a good chunk of the repetitive and automatable parts have been automated. If you aren't terribly concerned with a readable and optimized outcome, you can completely rely on automated UVs and projection painting or baking for a broad array of models or limited automation where some conscious choices still need to be made or are desired.
pixelquaternion said: gree that has to be one of the most frustrating part of a pipeline and i thought a few years ago that Ptex would solve this in the gaming pipeline but so far it doesn't look like anything is going to be done.
No wonder so many artists get ridden with RSI problems that some time even lead to abandoning their career. Our hands, wrists and fingers are not made for this insane amount of repetitive assault day after day and in a sitting position where blood circulation is compromised.
3 of our team members here were seriously having problem with tendonitis and all in their 20. I also have RSI problem and a few years ago i thought my career was going to end abruptly but i was able to continue by changing the way i work. The thing that save me the most was the use of a space navigator.
Exactly. There's so much attention to detail and micro-managing going on, it feels like our bodies are being overworked more than they should be.
I was thinking to myself the other day, why was I able to take on so many projects around 2015-2016 but without actually feeling tired from doing it? Even when I was working a full-time job during this time, I was still able to do it, because I had limited myself to working with PS2 -esque assets. It was a pretty straight forward way of making models that had just enough geometry, and then just painting over them using textures made in Photoshop.
Of course PS2 quality art isn't the standard anymore, but when I did start to embrace a fully hi-poly/low poly and PBR workflow, I did begin to notice my eyes, chest, and wrists were hurting a lot more than in the past. The expectations for photo-realism and accuracy now a days has kind of made it where you do have to spend a little more extra time getting everything right.
If technology ever does come a long that simplifies everything or does make art creation as fast as it was in the PS2 days, then of course I would welcome it. How the art was made doesn't matter. Taking less stress off our bodies to get there should be our goal.
Doing UVs is one of the fields that has improved drastically over the years. You can complain that you have to do it at all, but a good chunk of the repetitive and automatable parts have been automated. If you aren't terribly concerned with a readable and optimized outcome, you can completely rely on automated UVs and projection painting or baking for a broad array of models or limited automation where some conscious choices still need to be made or are desired.
I do agree that the tools have improved but for some specifics geometry the amount of click required is still insane and as long as you are not getting RSI problems you will not complain about it. Not many people complain about the amount of mouse click required in a pipeline production but this alone show how much the industry don't think about health.
Here it cost us quite a bit of money and we had to replace 2 guy's for a 4 month period by new one that had to be trained all over again for the work pipeline we had already in place.
A good craftsman never blames their tools. Pay more attention to your posture & ergonomics.
There's no difference in effort now vs. then. Good handpainting is just as time-consuming and difficult as good sculpting & materials work.
There's still no substitute for sustained focussed effort. Git gud, son.
But it's not the tools I'm complaining about. But in conjunction with how complex everything has gotten.
For example, I do not believe a PS2 model ever needed 4 separate textures to convey information. A prop may have only been 2000 triangles and use a single 256 or 512 texture. You could make multiple models like this and not tire out.
But when talking next gen workflows, making multiple models with increased fidelity in one sitting just isn't feasible. Either somewhere in the process you have to take shortcuts, or you settle with making fewer (but higher quality) ones in the same time.
Development and scientific breakthroughs haven´t stopped, its just that it has shifted mostly to new tools. I would even wager and say, we are currently in a big Code refactoring phase which is slowing it down for the bigger "Industry standard" programs.
Predictive simulations/using pre computed libraries to drastically enhance simulations in a fraction of time it usually took to simulate such stuff from scratch, with the usage of deep mind learning systems for water- and smoke-simulations where definitely not a thing in the 1980s and 1990s...
So many exciting new programs and solutions are either announced or are coming out, you just have to take a move away from the current but imo soon to be past "industry standards" and dive deep into the new available programs.
A good craftsman never blames their tools. Pay more attention to your posture & ergonomics.
There's no difference in effort now vs. then. Good handpainting is just as time-consuming and difficult as good sculpting & materials work.
There's still no substitute for sustained focussed effort. Git gud, son.
But it's not the tools I'm complaining about. But in conjunction with how complex everything has gotten.
For example, I do not believe a PS2 model ever needed 4 separate textures to convey information. A prop may have only been 2000 triangles and use a single 256 or 512 texture. You could make multiple models like this and not tire out.
But when talking next gen workflows, making multiple models with increased fidelity in one sitting just isn't feasible. Either somewhere in the process you have to take shortcuts, or you settle with making fewer (but higher quality) ones in the same time.
I really don't have to click anymore while doing uvs vs actual modeling and they make standing desks if you have trouble keeping good posture. and so what if next gen requires more than one day per model (that depends completely on the model and the artist). its no worse on your body than a model in one sitting.
No matter what tools you are using, you are going to be sitting down and working on a computer for eight hours a day. That doesn't change until the job is entirely automated and the only human job left is playing games.
You get a standing desk, a kneeling desk, you do pushups and squats every hour on the hour, when you start feeling frustrated you take a five minute break. When you feel burnt out, you go for a long hike on the weekend and be very careful not to think about your work at all.
You adapt. You overcome. If you are a very clever engineer, you develop solutions to give the artist a more ergonomic and stress free working environment. If you are stuck working in a soul destroying beauracracy, you let it all go and just do your work but don't become emotionally invested in it.
But complaining for the sake of complaining is absolutely useless and fouls the atmosphere overall. And the worst kind of complaining is complaining about what you think others should or should not be doing. This brings the entire team down.
Ok complaint : "My back hurts, I got to find a way to fix this."
Terrible complaint : "My back hurts, it's the evil corporations who lack humanity faults."
I'm sorry to anybody who suffers from RSI, but seeing people gripe about a dream job and blame it for causing a not-so-terrible first world condition borders on sounding pathetic to me. Trust me, if you haven't worried about being maimed or killed because of your job, or have so little control in youuur day to day life that you don't get to choose when you sleep or eat or if you get to at all, you really should be doing your suffering in silence. It's nice to bitch and groan with your friends sometimes, but you really got to put things into perspective if you find yourself getting carried away to the point of absurdity with it.
No matter what tools you are using, you are going to be sitting down and working on a computer for eight hours a day. That doesn't change until the job is entirely automated and the only human job left is playing games.
You get a standing desk, a kneeling desk, you do pushups and squats every hour on the hour, when you start feeling frustrated you take a five minute break. When you feel burnt out, you go for a long hike on the weekend and be very careful not to think about your work at all.
You adapt. You overcome. If you are a very clever engineer, you develop solutions to give the artist a more ergonomic and stress free working environment. If you are stuck working in a soul destroying beauracracy, you let it all go and just do your work but don't become emotionally invested in it.
But complaining for the sake of complaining is absolutely useless and fouls the atmosphere overall. And the worst kind of complaining is complaining about what you think others should or should not be doing. This brings the entire team down.
Ok complaint : "My back hurts, I got to find a way to fix this."
Terrible complaint : "My back hurts, it's the evil corporations who lack humanity faults."
I'm sorry to anybody who suffers from RSI, but seeing people gripe about a dream job and blame it for causing a not-so-terrible first world condition borders on sounding pathetic to me. Trust me, if you haven't worried about being maimed or killed because of your job, or have so little control in youuur day to day life that you don't get to choose when you sleep or eat or if you get to at all, you really should be doing your suffering in silence. It's nice to bitch and groan with your friends sometimes, but you really got to put things into perspective if you find yourself getting carried away to the point of absurdity with it.
Or a proactive democratic citizen who focuses on making the absolute most change they can with the tools they got and not wasting energy fruitlessly.
Me and you are on the same team. The difference is, you are firing all your ammo in the air at nothing, instead of being sure of your target and waiting for the right opportunities. Then, when other people say, "hey, I don't think what you're doing makes sense," you fire more and louder, instead of pausing long enough to fully consider the teams input.
Or a proactive democratic citizen who focuses on making the absolute most change they can with the tools they got and not wasting energy fruitlessly.
Me and you are on the same team. The difference is, you are firing all your ammo in the air at nothing, instead of being sure of your target and waiting for the right opportunities.
I apologize since it was immature to call you a dictator but you want to impose your narrow view while i want to start a dialog to see the reason and the potential solutions that can emerge from it.
It's a healthy thing to question establish system or workflow and if you do not like this kind of discussion why even bother posting?
Just in one simple thread people have already state very good information's and link to interesting talk.
So just be honest and tell me that you want me or others to shut their mouth and accept even the worst conditions for the sake of becoming a sheep in the herd!
I should refrain from getting emotional since after 5 years of hardship and problems developing our game i think i have now a pretty decent knowledge about what is wrong with our industry.
Review your own writing. It lacks focus. At the onset, my question was, what is your point? Over the course of the discussion, as others have brought good explanations to some of the things you were complaining about, you changed the argument, as if your only goal was be right about something.
Even now, it seem's the only thing you had to say was that you are generally displeased with the 3d industry, but most of the reasons you listed are easily debunked or so large/general in scope to be useless.
You should question everything and constantly strive to improve the status quo. But you are doing it in a non-effective way.
Review your own writing. It lacks focus. At the onset, my question was, what is your point? Over the course of the discussion, as others have brought good explanations to some of the things you were complaining about, you changed the argument, as if your only goal was be right about something.
Even now, it seem's the only thing you had to say was that you are generally displeased with the 3d industry, but most of the reasons you listed are easily debunked or so large/general in scope to be useless.
You should question everything and constantly strive to improve the status quo. But you are doing it in a non-effective way.
OK i see and from now on i will ignore every posts you make!
I suspect amidst all of this self effacing profundity you've chosen to expound over the course of this discussion, your colleagues and/or students in particular are an especially appreciative jovial ensemble
I suspect amidst all of this self effacing profundity you've chosen to expound over the course of this discussion, your colleagues and/or students in particular are an especially appreciative jovial ensemble
People like you make perfect employee and never question their boss or
ask for a better wage! Ubisoft studio in Montreal is a place you would
really like to work believe me. You will get a room to play games and
free pizza!
OK i see and from now on i will ignore every posts you make!
Hey guy, I realize you're new here, but do try to calm down a bit. Getting angry at anyone who has a different opinion than you is not a good way to conduct yourself on this site. If you continue to stir things up, insult, and berate other users the moderator team may have to step in.
The topics you're brining up are fine, but tone back the rhetoric and elitist sentiment please. You're not the only person who is smart enough to think about these issues, nor does your experience give you the right to talk down to others.
OK i see and from now on i will ignore every posts you make!
Hey guy, I realize you're new here, but do try to calm down a bit. Getting angry at anyone who has a different opinion than you is not a good way to conduct yourself on this site. If you continue to stir things up, insult, and berate other users the moderator team may have to step in.
The topics you're brining up are fine, but tone back the rhetoric and elitist sentiment please. You're not the only person who is smart enough to think about these issues, nor does your experience give you the right to talk down to others.
Look i made a solid point and i didn't stop getting bash by mainly 2 people who probably have less than 2 years in the industry and i was very polite in my replies. I was getting insulted for no reason at all. Look at my past and you will not find a single thread or post i made with one single insult or mockery .
You can close my account since i am clearly not welcome here.
Don't worry i will never ask or continue using your forum since discussion lead to such a dead end. It's scary to see an entire generation accepting whatever an industry throw at them without questioning anything.
Don't question the system in place is surely a very wise approach that will serve you well on the long run.
OK i see and from now on i will ignore every posts you make!
Hey guy, I realize you're new here, but do try to calm down a bit. Getting angry at anyone who has a different opinion than you is not a good way to conduct yourself on this site. If you continue to stir things up, insult, and berate other users the moderator team may have to step in.
The topics you're brining up are fine, but tone back the rhetoric and elitist sentiment please. You're not the only person who is smart enough to think about these issues, nor does your experience give you the right to talk down to others.
Look i made a solid point and i didn't stop getting bash by mainly 2 people who probably have less than 2 years in the industry and i was very polite in my replies. I was getting insulted for no reason at all. Look at my past and you will not find a single thread or post i made with one single insult or mockery .
You can close my account since i am clearly not welcome here.
Don't worry i will never ask or continue using your forum since discussion lead to such a dead end. It's scary to see an entire generation accepting whatever an industry throw at them without questioning anything.
Don't question the system in place is surely a very wise approach that will serve you well on the long run.
I think most or none of us is just accept anything without question, but many of us can see reasons other then brain shortage to why it is like it is, just go do a good read on any older industry, why it slowed down and what ideas that gave it a boost. all the information you are looking for is already available.
Most of us here are Artists and not engineers so there is a limit to what we can do, but if there was ground breaking new techniques and software being thrown at us anyone would be happy to check it out. I don't think anyone is just sitting around taking it.
No reason to leave polycount because of this though, it's just normal life here hehe, we all had our missteps and questionable arguments.
I will finish my thread with this excellent article from 2014 and i include a quote from it here ;
"We've got a little conundrum going on in the US," Mencher said. "We've
got a little tech war going on because there aren't enough college
students registering into computer science programs, so there isn't
enough talent in the US to fill the needs of the US game
companies...There are too many jobs available in the industry. There's a
glut of jobs. Everyone is hiring."
So i think i had a valid point and some people in the industry where already aware but not many.
Well i wish to everyone success in their endeavor since my goal here was not to make conflict but to open a dialog over a subject that has affected us here in the 5 years developing our game.
The pipeline and the amount of work required is insane and lead to serious health issues that can end one career. And we don't have the brain(refer to quote on top) anymore to make thing better.
OK i see and from now on i will ignore every posts you make!
Hey guy, I realize you're new here, but do try to calm down a bit. Getting angry at anyone who has a different opinion than you is not a good way to conduct yourself on this site. If you continue to stir things up, insult, and berate other users the moderator team may have to step in.
The topics you're brining up are fine, but tone back the rhetoric and elitist sentiment please. You're not the only person who is smart enough to think about these issues, nor does your experience give you the right to talk down to others.
Look i made a solid point and i didn't stop getting bash by mainly 2 people who probably have less than 2 years in the industry and i was very polite in my replies. I was getting insulted for no reason at all. Look at my past and you will not find a single thread or post i made with one single insult or mockery .
You can close my account since i am clearly not welcome here.
Don't worry i will never ask or continue using your forum since discussion lead to such a dead end. It's scary to see an entire generation accepting whatever an industry throw at them without questioning anything.
Don't question the system in place is surely a very wise approach that will serve you well on the long run.
I think most or none of us is just accept anything without question, but many of us can see reasons other then brain shortage to why it is like it is, just go do a good read on any older industry, why it slowed down and what ideas that gave it a boost. all the information you are looking for is already available.
Most of us here are Artists and not engineers so there is a limit to what we can do, but if there was ground breaking new techniques and software being thrown at us anyone would be happy to check it out. I don't think anyone is just sitting around taking it.
No reason to leave polycount because of this though, it's just normal life here hehe, we all had our missteps and questionable arguments.
I never expected for one minute that this thread would become my last thread here since i was convinced folks and specially artists are generally open for discussion.
Nice from you to ask me to stay but from now on i am a dead duck and any thread i start even if it is not involving industry questioning will simply get ignored.
The problem is that your thread title is not consistent with your actual problem/questions.
"I am the only one who notice the stagnation in 3d software development!"
doesn't have much to do with :
"No wonder so many artists get ridden with RSI problems that some time even lead to abandoning their career. Our hands, wrists and fingers are not made for this insane amount of repetitive assault day after day and in a sitting position where blood circulation is compromised."
It's not up to software engineers to create an automagical solution that instantly solve problems arising directly from the decision to cram as much content and detail as possible into a game.
Of course it would be great if everything was automatic but at the current time it simply isn't, for a wide number of reasons. In such a situation the culprit is absolutely not the architect behind the software but rather ... the person who was in charge of the team of artists you are talking about. If a lead accepts that his/her team gets worked to the bone to a point that people's bodies start to break down, then that simply means that this art lead has done a terrible job at scoping out the workload of the team, failed to negotiate for a simpler/more efficient art style (probably out of ignorance of how much inertia comes from highly detailed work, which often happens when people slightly out of the loop get easily impressed by shiny Zbrush screenshots), and so on.
There are ways to make efficient game art that doesn't require people to go overboard and kill themselves on the job. It simply requires a solid understanding of the way these things work, and a willingness to say no when the line is crossed.
I suppose there's also something to say about some artists being kinda dumb when it comes to ergonomics, willingly (and sometimes proudly) powering through a terrible habit at the cost of their own health. For instance a ton of people are totally okay with developing an awful "claw grip" when using a tablet - as opposed to looking into getting a Cintiq, or even simply grabbing some pen/pencil and paper. In such cases the blame is 100% on the artist, not on Wacom.
The problem is that your thread title is not consistent with your actual problem/questions.
"I am the only one who notice the stagnation in 3d software development!"
doesn't have much to do with :
"No wonder so many artists get ridden with RSI problems that some time even lead to abandoning their career. Our hands, wrists and fingers are not made for this insane amount of repetitive assault day after day and in a sitting position where blood circulation is compromised."
It's not up to software engineers to create an automagical solution that instantly solve problems arising directly from the decision to cram as much content and detail as possible into a game.
Of course it would be great if everything was automatic but at the current time it simply isn't, for a wide number of reasons. In such a situation the culprit is absolutely not the architect behind the software but rather ... the person who was in charge of the team of artists you are talking about. If a lead accepts that his/her team gets worked to the bone to a point that people's bodies start to break down, then that simply means that this art lead has done a terrible job at scoping out the workload of the team, failed to negotiate for a simpler/more efficient art style (probably out of ignorance of how much inertia comes from highly detailed work, which often happens when people slightly out of the loop get easily impressed by shiny Zbrush screenshots), and so on.
There are ways to make efficient game art that doesn't require people to go overboard and kill themselves on the job. It simply requires a solid understanding of the way these things work, and a willingness to say no when the line is crossed.
I suppose there's also something to say about some artists being kinda dumb when it comes to ergonomics, willingly (and sometimes proudly) powering through a terrible habit at the cost of their own health. For instance a ton of people are totally okay with developing an awful "claw grip" when using a tablet - as opposed to looking into getting a Cintiq, or even simply grabbing some pen/pencil and paper. In such cases the blame is 100% on the artist, not on Wacom.
Thank for replying but i already close this thread in a post above and will no longer question thing since they are perfect the way they are.
I guess people are scared of new software innovations and in general automation who knows some clever script my take their job
But on the other hand why would you pay for same old program with new package
And yes whole topic got skewed by some completely irrelevant comments, whole idea been why we still paying for the same old programs when there is such a big room for improvement automation been just a small part
I personally believe that any tool that can help you improve your workflow and save you time especially with mindless boring task deserve some credit
Can a mod please close this thread and also my account, thank.
We don't need to close this thread or delete your account. If you no longer wish to post here that is entirely up to you. All we need to do is start respecting each other and everything will be fine.
Pior made some very good points. The essential topic and much of the discussion in this thread has been positive, but it's been marred with childish name calling and strawman arguments. For instance, anyone who shares a contrary opinion is labled as someone who will "no longer question thing since they are perfect the way they are." and various other exaggerations. This is quite frankly absurd. If you can discuss these issues like an adult you're more than welcome to stay here, and will not receive the negative reception you have thus far. The perceived slights you mention are entirely your own creation. If you show others respect, they will return it in kind.
I understand that English is not your first language, so there are probably some things getting lost in translation. My advice to you would be to simply take a step back, and not respond to other posters in an emotional way, at which point we'll be able to carry on this conversation which has the potential to be interesting and helpful.
Someone (forgive me for not checking who) made a very salient point above. Major technological breakthroughs tend to happen near the start of an invention. When cars were invented, they changed society in a massive way. Later innovations tend to be much more evolutionary (more cup holders!) than revolutionary as <insert thing here> becomes more mature.
We're going through that in our industry and the software industry as a whole. Making the same sort of impact as the first 3D apps did when they came on the market decades ago is extremely difficult and quite frankly, unrealistic. Saying that, there have been a lot of great innovations in the last 10 years. The most obvious one is the adoption of Zbrush and sculpting workflows in general, which have completely changed how assets are produced in a lot of very meaningful ways.
There have been many advances in various other software packages as well. Modo is quite cool, Blender has had some very good development in the last five years, though the big two (Max and Maya) seem to be a bit stagnant at this point. Even still, Max has some exceptional tools for non-destructive workflows that can used very efficiently if you understand them. Maya to an extent, is what you make of it, for better or worse. There are things I've seen done with Max that blow my mind, at a certain point it's up to the individual to figure some of this stuff out and not rely on tools to change their lives. You rarely hear a carpenter lamenting the stagnant state of hammer and saw development. Some of the biggest advances I've seen recently are simply artists mastering their tools.
At the same time, the demand for quality in the work has increased dramatically, so the exceptions and ability of the artists are outpacing the advances in tools in many ways, but this isn't really new. Artist's abilities greatly outpaced the functionality of the software when the first 3D apps were released, we just had much lower expectations in terms of what to expect from computer graphics.
Speaking as someone who works at a company that focuses solely on tools, creating innovative workflow breakthroughs is not a simple matter. This is stuff we think about and work towards all day, every day. It takes a lot of work to bring a product to market that is as good as what is out there currently, let alone better than what is available. Software designers these days are standing on the shoulders of giants, and making meaningful impact is challenging.
I think there are a lot of great things happening these days though, and there is certainly a lot of potential for improvement in various areas of tools and production.
Everyone has to remember you're using a computer, it is dumb by nature; I know all the baloney the media is telling people,with hyper tubes and flying cars all this crazy non-sense.
My workflow for years is the same.. And i do near to zero retopo... I do a rough base with topo in mind... A volume sculpt... Than i use lvl2 as new base... Do some modeling on top... This is my sculpt geo and my lowres base...
Gotta gently disagree with OP. I'm young and even within my span of experience there have been huge improvements in software, tools, and techniques.
When one talks about how retopology is still such a burden, or UVs are still such a chore... I myself know there are better ways to do these things today than just ten years ago. You have to go a little out of your way to expose yourself to new tech and processes, you have to actively look into how others are working. Occasionally dip into a stream or check out some new tutorial. Chat to people at work about how they do XYZ. Get to know people that make tools.
When we master some workflow it becomes a comfort zone and when we stay in the comfort zone we eventually stagnate and then wonder why things haven't changed. Often we havent changed but the world has moved on.
Nvidia was even trying to bring the technology to games but nothing has been heard about it since. It's a bit frustrating since this is the standard used at Pixar/Disney, so it's not like it's an unproven workflow or has no future.
Well, except in many cases it just isn't, even if it was implemented in games. It goes back to the whole topic of this thread : the holy grail search for optimisation and magic buttons sure has value, but it blinds people to the practices that actually make game art lightweight, scalable, and, well, able to run at 60fps and over.
Bruteforce automagical solutions do have their place, and I'm sure that automatic "I don't want to properly unwrap my model, and in order to do that I have to retopo it first anyways, and retopo is boring and should be automatic boooo I hate retopo, and I spent a whole month on the Zeebrush sculpt already can we start on the next model now ? Oh, there are changes we need to do on the model, sorry I can't it's too late, I'd have to redo the whole sculpt" kind of UVs are great for PS4 Pro games using 4096 textures and running at barely 30fps. But it's no wonder why Nintendo always manages to hit 60fps on hardware one generation older, and with better looking results - they simply keep their sight on the end goal rather than being distracted with producing fancy screenshots of polygon soup sculpts. There's a certain humility there that many could learn from.
Automation sure is extremely important (there's never a good reason to do a technical thing twice, or to waste anyone's time doing repetitive button-pushing work). But everything falls appart when bruteforce automation comes at the cost of skipping on good practices to begin with.
TLDR : can't tile a trim sheet over PTex or automatic UVs.
TLDR2 : about 10 years ago I heard a technical person claim that "by next generation we won't need normalmaps anymore anyways, hardware will be so powerful that all we'll need is displacement maps and tesselation". Well, except it didn't quite work out that way at all - lightweight game art still remains lightweight game art, and the people who understood the careful crafting of it back then are still the ones producing the best results today.
Well, except in many cases it just isn't, even if it was implemented in games. It goes back to the whole topic of this thread : the holy grail search for optimisation and magic buttons sure has value, but it blinds people to the practices that actually make game art lightweight, scalable, and, well, able to run at 60fps and over.
But in the presentation I linked to, they argue it's still suppose to do all those things. Nvidia saw a 30% increase in memory efficiency and were able to get some demos running at 400 fps.
It's my opinion it doesn't make sense why we can't have new technology and optimized video games. If tomorrow, Nvidia or AMD does bring Ptex to games and it has all the same performance as UV's, why would I shrug it off?
In regards to the person who claimed there is no need for normal maps, I think he was misinformed. Bump maps are still used in Film, why would games be the first to get rid of them? A better rationale would be as computers get more powerful, there would be less reliance on using just one technique but instead several.
Because *if* your goal is to make the asset run on a mobile platform that requires small textures, *then* you'd be stuck because you couldn't use any tiling/trim sheets. Again I am not saying that this is the case for all games - see Rage for instance.
Basically people have two choices : 1 - Relying on potential, hypothetical, future automagical developments that may or may not solve their problems ; and endlessly "discussing" such automagical techniques ad nauseam. Or,
2 - Actually wrestling with their problems right now and finding practical ways to solve them and getting things done instead of daydreaming about a better future.
Ironically the first category of artists tend to end up stuck in their own ways and resist change. They are pretty easy to spot too - they are usually the ones doing overtime willingly, because they start on their tasks head first without much planning and end up having to bruteforce things in the end. Whereas the second category actually get things done fast and efficiently, and pave the way for the future.
Because *if* your goal is to make the asset run on a mobile platform that requires small textures, *then* you couldn't use any tiling/trim sheets. Again I am not saying that this is the case for all games - see Rage for instance.
But this is deliberately ignoring a key part of my argument. I'm talking about the day Ptex and UV's are identical in performance. If it makes no difference in frame rate, and techniques are transferable across the two, why shrug it off?
2 - Actually wrestling with their problems right now and finding practical ways to solve them and getting things done, instead of daydreaming about a better future.
I didn't say this, and you shouldn't be doing this.
I'm saying, why not let the two technologies co-exist when all the former problems (regarding frame rate or the ability to do trim sheets) are met with a solution? There is no Ptex used in games today, but if it does become apart of it in the future, what is the harm in trying to work with it?
There's also no reason to believe that this type of change is solely predicated on artists being the ones to experiment with it. Software engineers, programmers, scientists, anyone who is paid to do research on computer graphics could be the ones to create the hypothetical I'm dealing with. Since Nvidia is a company out to sell GPU's, it benefits them if they find a marketable reason for supporting Ptex and putting additional resources in making it widespread. For a game studio, they have less incentives to pour resources into it unless it turns out to be the next Crysis or it somehow lowers dev costs.
There is much instruction out there showing how to sculpt, how to do individual processes involved in making game art. But I don't think I've ever seen a tutorial cover the kind of stuff @pior is always talking about. I feel that this is the kind of thing that is really important. One thing I've learned from working on an indie game project is that models designed for portfolios and models designed to work in a game are two different things. Of course, AAA studios have talented specialist who can do a lot more than a few wanna-be's can, but still, it's pretty different.
I would be very pleased and more than willing to drop a few dollars on some tutorials that built just some simple game models, but thoroughly discussed the kind of high-level planning more experienced game artist have learned. The kind of thing a person would usually not learn until they actually got a job in a studio and could just sit down and talk with some seniors.
For instance, before I start a game model, I usually just sit there for like an hour (or days, depending on how much time I need to put into the thing) and kind of walkthrough the whole process in my mind. Figure out how I'm going to organize the UV's, which parts I'll block out first and why, etc. I usually have to kind of wing all of this, though by now I've done it enough to have some clue what I am doing, but as a self-study beginner, it would have been great to get a headstart on this sort of high-level strategery by learning from some pro's.
But this is deliberately ignoring a key part of my argument. I'm talking about the day Ptex and UV's are identical in performance.
Ah. So you're arguing about ptex in a theoretical way, not in an actual "this is what ptex does" way.
You're basically saying "if ptex develops in exactly the way I want it to develop, why wouldn't people use it?"
But it's a pointless theoretical at this point. If internet explorer all of a sudden becomes the best web browser, with all the best features, why wouldn't I use it? Well, I would, but it isn't.
@JordanN Again : trim sheets, tiling, and performance scaling. And I'd willingly ignore any part of an argument if it is not relevant to the argument to begin with
But there's no point beating a dead horse about that - it's not something to "discuss" or argue about, as the logic of it comes naturally from actually working on assets, that actually end up in an actual game.
Also : there's no harm dreaming about fancy future tech, who cares. Sure, it can be fun to look at/play with. But the point is more, what is the best use of one's limited time : daydreaming about the future and messing around with stuff, or actually getting great things done with what is available now ? If the guy who was excited about tesselation 10 years spent the last 10 years trying to make game assets with displacement maps, he wouldn't be any more hire-able now than he was back then.
At the end of the day people in charge of hiring artists can instantly tell who falls into which category - usually because their portfolio clearly reflects it. On one side it's usually a bunch of jumbled assets and "experiments" using whichever new bruteforce technique has been made to look cool in a youtube tutorial ; and on the other side it's usually a lot of cohesive game assets, with neatly crafted textures and clean, efficient models. The first portfolio wouldn't be fit for hire, whereas the second is.
This is also the reason why people with a lot of game modding experience make such great studio hires.
Ah. So you're arguing about ptex in a theoretical way, not in an actual "this is what ptex does" way.
You're basically saying "if ptex develops in exactly the way I want it to develop, why wouldn't people use it?"
I'm not saying this.
I'm saying, why shrug off something when the original complaints about it (it uses too much performance or you can't transfer techniques from UV) would disappear?
That's how technology always progresses. It's not suppose to stay stagnant, it's suppose to keep evolving until it hits a point of diminishing returns.
Today I posted Nvidia has one real time Ptex solution running at 400fps. In 10 years, it might be running at 5000 fps. I don't expect them to go backwards or that would be a waste of resources. I'm not seeing the justification for ignoring new emerging technology, when the gaps between it and other techniques begin to narrow over time.
Also : there's no harm dreaming about fancy future tech, who cares. Sure, it can be fun to look at/play with. But the point is more, what is the best use of one's limited time : daydreaming about the future and messing around with stuff, or actually getting great things done with what is available now ? If the guy who was excited about tesselation 10 years spent the last 10 years trying to make game assets with displacement maps, he wouldn't be any more hire-able now than he was back then.
@BIGTIMEMASTER : I think you totally hit the nail on the head - I feel like some of that stuff can be shown/broken down, but the real path to efficiency is self-evaluation - just like the preliminary breakdowns you are talking about.
I think there is also something to be said about whether or not a junior artist is actually willing to hear recommendations about working efficiently. Usually it can be determined by the Zeebrush to Finished Game Models ratio in one's portfolio - If the ratio is anywhere over 1 one can be sure that it will be an uphill battle
As for where to find info about efficient mindset/planning : looking at model rips for study and also looking at content made by environment artists, who simply have no choice but being very efficient at what they do.
And of course the linear sculpt>retopo>UV>bake workflow is necessary to master too, but these days it is so widely covered that it is almost a moot point really.
I don't think anyone is saying shrug it off as not being relevant one day, but more of if it's not going to be relevant in the next 12 months why would we even waste time playing around with it for now. there is so many little tools and tech that end up going nowhere, look at that voxel based game engine that is a running joke in the industry. Spending 6+ hours looking at the documentation for ptex, downloading it, trying to figure out how to get it working and then trying to get actual AAA quality results and integrating it into your workflow seems like 6+ hours that would be better spent with your head down actually making art.
Just watch a bunch of GDC presentations on how arts made, the naughty dog guys actually laughed when someone asked if they were using tessalation. if your portfolio is a bunch of displaced marmoset texture spheres relying on tessalation to look good, you will not be getting many callbacks for texture artist jobs.
technical diddling, vs actually just putting in the work.
straight up execution vs searching for the next tool, tutorial, tip, or technique to save you 30 mins. there is a lot of irony in spending 5 hours searching for a solution for something that takes 30 mins to get done.
Pior hit the nail on the head. creating assets that actually work in games NOW, more importantly that could actually run on console is going to be what gets you a job. I would say his advice is pretty damn spot on and more importantly based on years of industry experience. trims and tiling are not going anywhere anytime soon when it comes to environment and asset production. 400fps on a random pc is irrelevant if it doesnt run on console, where the majority of the money is made. all those tech demos that boast awesome stats are not usually factoring in AI, actual good, complex lighting and FX, gameplay, level streaming etc that you have to take into account.
if the fact that doing uv's annoys you to the point where it stops you from making finished art then you might want to rethink your career choice. not to mention if you are planning on relying on some fancy software to power your output, shits gonna hit the fan when you join a studio and they don't have it.
again, relevant output for what companies are putting out and looking to hire for TODAY....not pie in the sky nexgen what ifs. stop waiting, overthinking and just start doing
I would also say...I would consider the explosion of outsourcing from china and dope ass librarys like quixel megascans the latest, most efficient time savers. The more time focused on actually building the game and improving gameplay spaces vs pushing and pulling verts is where the biggest gains are gonna be made. If you think you can be a modeler 10 years from now creating props like mailboxes and grungy brick textures.....you will be commoditized out of the western jobs in the industry long before that.
Replies
Uvs are even simpler... Cut by hard edge... unfold... back... Little hand work...
https://www.artstation.com/artwork/5JVa1
the part that takes the most time is nailing the concept... Catch the mood of the design and pleasing the Artdirector...
There's so much attention to detail and micro-managing going on, it feels like our bodies are being overworked more than they should be.
I was thinking to myself the other day, why was I able to take on so many projects around 2015-2016 but without actually feeling tired from doing it? Even when I was working a full-time job during this time, I was still able to do it, because I had limited myself to working with PS2 -esque assets. It was a pretty straight forward way of making models that had just enough geometry, and then just painting over them using textures made in Photoshop.
Of course PS2 quality art isn't the standard anymore, but when I did start to embrace a fully hi-poly/low poly and PBR workflow, I did begin to notice my eyes, chest, and wrists were hurting a lot more than in the past. The expectations for photo-realism and accuracy now a days has kind of made it where you do have to spend a little more extra time getting everything right.
If technology ever does come a long that simplifies everything or does make art creation as fast as it was in the PS2 days, then of course I would welcome it. How the art was made doesn't matter. Taking less stress off our bodies to get there should be our goal.
There's no difference in effort now vs. then. Good handpainting is just as time-consuming and difficult as good sculpting & materials work.
There's still no substitute for sustained focussed effort. Git gud, son.
For example, I do not believe a PS2 model ever needed 4 separate textures to convey information. A prop may have only been 2000 triangles and use a single 256 or 512 texture. You could make multiple models like this and not tire out.
But when talking next gen workflows, making multiple models with increased fidelity in one sitting just isn't feasible. Either somewhere in the process you have to take shortcuts, or you settle with making fewer (but higher quality) ones in the same time.
You get a standing desk, a kneeling desk, you do pushups and squats every hour on the hour, when you start feeling frustrated you take a five minute break. When you feel burnt out, you go for a long hike on the weekend and be very careful not to think about your work at all.
You adapt. You overcome. If you are a very clever engineer, you develop solutions to give the artist a more ergonomic and stress free working environment. If you are stuck working in a soul destroying beauracracy, you let it all go and just do your work but don't become emotionally invested in it.
But complaining for the sake of complaining is absolutely useless and fouls the atmosphere overall. And the worst kind of complaining is complaining about what you think others should or should not be doing. This brings the entire team down.
Ok complaint : "My back hurts, I got to find a way to fix this."
Terrible complaint : "My back hurts, it's the evil corporations who lack humanity faults."
I'm sorry to anybody who suffers from RSI, but seeing people gripe about a dream job and blame it for causing a not-so-terrible first world condition borders on sounding pathetic to me. Trust me, if you haven't worried about being maimed or killed because of your job, or have so little control in youuur day to day life that you don't get to choose when you sleep or eat or if you get to at all, you really should be doing your suffering in silence. It's nice to bitch and groan with your friends sometimes, but you really got to put things into perspective if you find yourself getting carried away to the point of absurdity with it.
Me and you are on the same team. The difference is, you are firing all your ammo in the air at nothing, instead of being sure of your target and waiting for the right opportunities. Then, when other people say, "hey, I don't think what you're doing makes sense," you fire more and louder, instead of pausing long enough to fully consider the teams input.
Even now, it seem's the only thing you had to say was that you are generally displeased with the 3d industry, but most of the reasons you listed are easily debunked or so large/general in scope to be useless.
You should question everything and constantly strive to improve the status quo. But you are doing it in a non-effective way.
OP!
The topics you're brining up are fine, but tone back the rhetoric and elitist sentiment please. You're not the only person who is smart enough to think about these issues, nor does your experience give you the right to talk down to others.
Wth are you and @BIGTIMEMASTER even arguing about . . .?
Most of us here are Artists and not engineers so there is a limit to what we can do, but if there was ground breaking new techniques and software being thrown at us anyone would be happy to check it out. I don't think anyone is just sitting around taking it.
No reason to leave polycount because of this though, it's just normal life here hehe, we all had our missteps and questionable arguments.
I have a bad impression of colleagues and friends of mine who shut up to stop conflicts.
"I am the only one who notice the stagnation in 3d software development!"
doesn't have much to do with :
"No wonder so many artists get ridden with RSI problems that some time even lead to abandoning their career. Our hands, wrists and fingers are not made for this insane amount of repetitive assault day after day and in a sitting position where blood circulation is compromised."
It's not up to software engineers to create an automagical solution that instantly solve problems arising directly from the decision to cram as much content and detail as possible into a game.
Of course it would be great if everything was automatic but at the current time it simply isn't, for a wide number of reasons. In such a situation the culprit is absolutely not the architect behind the software but rather ... the person who was in charge of the team of artists you are talking about. If a lead accepts that his/her team gets worked to the bone to a point that people's bodies start to break down, then that simply means that this art lead has done a terrible job at scoping out the workload of the team, failed to negotiate for a simpler/more efficient art style (probably out of ignorance of how much inertia comes from highly detailed work, which often happens when people slightly out of the loop get easily impressed by shiny Zbrush screenshots), and so on.
There are ways to make efficient game art that doesn't require people to go overboard and kill themselves on the job. It simply requires a solid understanding of the way these things work, and a willingness to say no when the line is crossed.
I suppose there's also something to say about some artists being kinda dumb when it comes to ergonomics, willingly (and sometimes proudly) powering through a terrible habit at the cost of their own health. For instance a ton of people are totally okay with developing an awful "claw grip" when using a tablet - as opposed to looking into getting a Cintiq, or even simply grabbing some pen/pencil and paper. In such cases the blame is 100% on the artist, not on Wacom.
Pior made some very good points. The essential topic and much of the discussion in this thread has been positive, but it's been marred with childish name calling and strawman arguments. For instance, anyone who shares a contrary opinion is labled as someone who will "no longer question thing since they are perfect the way they are." and various other exaggerations. This is quite frankly absurd. If you can discuss these issues like an adult you're more than welcome to stay here, and will not receive the negative reception you have thus far. The perceived slights you mention are entirely your own creation. If you show others respect, they will return it in kind.
I understand that English is not your first language, so there are probably some things getting lost in translation. My advice to you would be to simply take a step back, and not respond to other posters in an emotional way, at which point we'll be able to carry on this conversation which has the potential to be interesting and helpful.
Someone (forgive me for not checking who) made a very salient point above. Major technological breakthroughs tend to happen near the start of an invention. When cars were invented, they changed society in a massive way. Later innovations tend to be much more evolutionary (more cup holders!) than revolutionary as <insert thing here> becomes more mature.
We're going through that in our industry and the software industry as a whole. Making the same sort of impact as the first 3D apps did when they came on the market decades ago is extremely difficult and quite frankly, unrealistic. Saying that, there have been a lot of great innovations in the last 10 years. The most obvious one is the adoption of Zbrush and sculpting workflows in general, which have completely changed how assets are produced in a lot of very meaningful ways.
There have been many advances in various other software packages as well. Modo is quite cool, Blender has had some very good development in the last five years, though the big two (Max and Maya) seem to be a bit stagnant at this point. Even still, Max has some exceptional tools for non-destructive workflows that can used very efficiently if you understand them. Maya to an extent, is what you make of it, for better or worse. There are things I've seen done with Max that blow my mind, at a certain point it's up to the individual to figure some of this stuff out and not rely on tools to change their lives. You rarely hear a carpenter lamenting the stagnant state of hammer and saw development. Some of the biggest advances I've seen recently are simply artists mastering their tools.
At the same time, the demand for quality in the work has increased dramatically, so the exceptions and ability of the artists are outpacing the advances in tools in many ways, but this isn't really new. Artist's abilities greatly outpaced the functionality of the software when the first 3D apps were released, we just had much lower expectations in terms of what to expect from computer graphics.
Speaking as someone who works at a company that focuses solely on tools, creating innovative workflow breakthroughs is not a simple matter. This is stuff we think about and work towards all day, every day. It takes a lot of work to bring a product to market that is as good as what is out there currently, let alone better than what is available. Software designers these days are standing on the shoulders of giants, and making meaningful impact is challenging.
I think there are a lot of great things happening these days though, and there is certainly a lot of potential for improvement in various areas of tools and production.
When one talks about how retopology is still such a burden, or UVs are still such a chore... I myself know there are better ways to do these things today than just ten years ago. You have to go a little out of your way to expose yourself to new tech and processes, you have to actively look into how others are working. Occasionally dip into a stream or check out some new tutorial. Chat to people at work about how they do XYZ. Get to know people that make tools.
When we master some workflow it becomes a comfort zone and when we stay in the comfort zone we eventually stagnate and then wonder why things haven't changed. Often we havent changed but the world has moved on.
Nvidia was even trying to bring the technology to games but nothing has been heard about it since. It's a bit frustrating since this is the standard used at Pixar/Disney, so it's not like it's an unproven workflow or has no future.
Well, except in many cases it just isn't, even if it was implemented in games. It goes back to the whole topic of this thread : the holy grail search for optimisation and magic buttons sure has value, but it blinds people to the practices that actually make game art lightweight, scalable, and, well, able to run at 60fps and over.
Bruteforce automagical solutions do have their place, and I'm sure that automatic "I don't want to properly unwrap my model, and in order to do that I have to retopo it first anyways, and retopo is boring and should be automatic boooo I hate retopo, and I spent a whole month on the Zeebrush sculpt already can we start on the next model now ? Oh, there are changes we need to do on the model, sorry I can't it's too late, I'd have to redo the whole sculpt" kind of UVs are great for PS4 Pro games using 4096 textures and running at barely 30fps. But it's no wonder why Nintendo always manages to hit 60fps on hardware one generation older, and with better looking results - they simply keep their sight on the end goal rather than being distracted with producing fancy screenshots of polygon soup sculpts. There's a certain humility there that many could learn from.
Automation sure is extremely important (there's never a good reason to do a technical thing twice, or to waste anyone's time doing repetitive button-pushing work). But everything falls appart when bruteforce automation comes at the cost of skipping on good practices to begin with.
TLDR : can't tile a trim sheet over PTex or automatic UVs.
TLDR2 : about 10 years ago I heard a technical person claim that "by next generation we won't need normalmaps anymore anyways, hardware will be so powerful that all we'll need is displacement maps and tesselation". Well, except it didn't quite work out that way at all - lightweight game art still remains lightweight game art, and the people who understood the careful crafting of it back then are still the ones producing the best results today.
It's my opinion it doesn't make sense why we can't have new technology and optimized video games. If tomorrow, Nvidia or AMD does bring Ptex to games and it has all the same performance as UV's, why would I shrug it off?
In regards to the person who claimed there is no need for normal maps, I think he was misinformed. Bump maps are still used in Film, why would games be the first to get rid of them? A better rationale would be as computers get more powerful, there would be less reliance on using just one technique but instead several.
Basically people have two choices :
1 - Relying on potential, hypothetical, future automagical developments that may or may not solve their problems ; and endlessly "discussing" such automagical techniques ad nauseam. Or,
2 - Actually wrestling with their problems right now and finding practical ways to solve them and getting things done instead of daydreaming about a better future.
Ironically the first category of artists tend to end up stuck in their own ways and resist change. They are pretty easy to spot too - they are usually the ones doing overtime willingly, because they start on their tasks head first without much planning and end up having to bruteforce things in the end. Whereas the second category actually get things done fast and efficiently, and pave the way for the future.
I'm talking about the day Ptex and UV's are identical in performance. If it makes no difference in frame rate, and techniques are transferable across the two, why shrug it off?
I'm saying, why not let the two technologies co-exist when all the former problems (regarding frame rate or the ability to do trim sheets) are met with a solution? There is no Ptex used in games today, but if it does become apart of it in the future, what is the harm in trying to work with it?
There's also no reason to believe that this type of change is solely predicated on artists being the ones to experiment with it. Software engineers, programmers, scientists, anyone who is paid to do research on computer graphics could be the ones to create the hypothetical I'm dealing with. Since Nvidia is a company out to sell GPU's, it benefits them if they find a marketable reason for supporting Ptex and putting additional resources in making it widespread. For a game studio, they have less incentives to pour resources into it unless it turns out to be the next Crysis or it somehow lowers dev costs.
I would be very pleased and more than willing to drop a few dollars on some tutorials that built just some simple game models, but thoroughly discussed the kind of high-level planning more experienced game artist have learned. The kind of thing a person would usually not learn until they actually got a job in a studio and could just sit down and talk with some seniors.
For instance, before I start a game model, I usually just sit there for like an hour (or days, depending on how much time I need to put into the thing) and kind of walkthrough the whole process in my mind. Figure out how I'm going to organize the UV's, which parts I'll block out first and why, etc. I usually have to kind of wing all of this, though by now I've done it enough to have some clue what I am doing, but as a self-study beginner, it would have been great to get a headstart on this sort of high-level strategery by learning from some pro's.
You're basically saying "if ptex develops in exactly the way I want it to develop, why wouldn't people use it?"
But it's a pointless theoretical at this point. If internet explorer all of a sudden becomes the best web browser, with all the best features, why wouldn't I use it? Well, I would, but it isn't.
But there's no point beating a dead horse about that - it's not something to "discuss" or argue about, as the logic of it comes naturally from actually working on assets, that actually end up in an actual game.
Also : there's no harm dreaming about fancy future tech, who cares. Sure, it can be fun to look at/play with. But the point is more, what is the best use of one's limited time : daydreaming about the future and messing around with stuff, or actually getting great things done with what is available now ? If the guy who was excited about tesselation 10 years spent the last 10 years trying to make game assets with displacement maps, he wouldn't be any more hire-able now than he was back then.
At the end of the day people in charge of hiring artists can instantly tell who falls into which category - usually because their portfolio clearly reflects it. On one side it's usually a bunch of jumbled assets and "experiments" using whichever new bruteforce technique has been made to look cool in a youtube tutorial ; and on the other side it's usually a lot of cohesive game assets, with neatly crafted textures and clean, efficient models. The first portfolio wouldn't be fit for hire, whereas the second is.
This is also the reason why people with a lot of game modding experience make such great studio hires.
I'm saying, why shrug off something when the original complaints about it (it uses too much performance or you can't transfer techniques from UV) would disappear?
That's how technology always progresses. It's not suppose to stay stagnant, it's suppose to keep evolving until it hits a point of diminishing returns.
Today I posted Nvidia has one real time Ptex solution running at 400fps. In 10 years, it might be running at 5000 fps. I don't expect them to go backwards or that would be a waste of resources. I'm not seeing the justification for ignoring new emerging technology, when the gaps between it and other techniques begin to narrow over time.
This is a strawman.
Why can't we learn both? There is in fact tessellation/displacement being used now that was less common in 10 years. But I never said you must abandon all other techniques to do it.
I think there is also something to be said about whether or not a junior artist is actually willing to hear recommendations about working efficiently. Usually it can be determined by the Zeebrush to Finished Game Models ratio in one's portfolio - If the ratio is anywhere over 1 one can be sure that it will be an uphill battle
As for where to find info about efficient mindset/planning : looking at model rips for study and also looking at content made by environment artists, who simply have no choice but being very efficient at what they do.
And of course the linear sculpt>retopo>UV>bake workflow is necessary to master too, but these days it is so widely covered that it is almost a moot point really.
Just watch a bunch of GDC presentations on how arts made, the naughty dog guys actually laughed when someone asked if they were using tessalation. if your portfolio is a bunch of displaced marmoset texture spheres relying on tessalation to look good, you will not be getting many callbacks for texture artist jobs.
technical diddling, vs actually just putting in the work.
straight up execution vs searching for the next tool, tutorial, tip, or technique to save you 30 mins. there is a lot of irony in spending 5 hours searching for a solution for something that takes 30 mins to get done.
Pior hit the nail on the head. creating assets that actually work in games NOW, more importantly that could actually run on console is going to be what gets you a job. I would say his advice is pretty damn spot on and more importantly based on years of industry experience. trims and tiling are not going anywhere anytime soon when it comes to environment and asset production. 400fps on a random pc is irrelevant if it doesnt run on console, where the majority of the money is made. all those tech demos that boast awesome stats are not usually factoring in AI, actual good, complex lighting and FX, gameplay, level streaming etc that you have to take into account.
if the fact that doing uv's annoys you to the point where it stops you from making finished art then you might want to rethink your career choice. not to mention if you are planning on relying on some fancy software to power your output, shits gonna hit the fan when you join a studio and they don't have it.
again, relevant output for what companies are putting out and looking to hire for TODAY....not pie in the sky nexgen what ifs. stop waiting, overthinking and just start doing
I would also say...I would consider the explosion of outsourcing from china and dope ass librarys like quixel megascans the latest, most efficient time savers. The more time focused on actually building the game and improving gameplay spaces vs pushing and pulling verts is where the biggest gains are gonna be made. If you think you can be a modeler 10 years from now creating props like mailboxes and grungy brick textures.....you will be commoditized out of the western jobs in the industry long before that.