Have you ever taken out a loan?
interpolator
Hey Polycount, I got a new financial question.
I'm wondering if anyone has any experience taking out a loan in relation to when they got started or were working in the industry?
The reason I ask this, is because I realize it was always difficult to work a minimum wage job and save enough money, while simultaneously having to spend money that go towards supporting a portfolio.
I've actually never had debt in my life before. Everything I've done so far I did work part/full time jobs and pay off with my own money. But now I'm at a point of my life where I'm too invested in 3D art, that going back to those jobs just to make a meager income (when games/vfx industry pays more) just doesn't feel appealing.
Again, I've never had any debts. But having heard of so many tales of people who go on loans, I'm wondering if I should do the same if I believe it can help me (while being able to pay it off the minute I do find actual industry work).
I'm wondering if anyone has any experience taking out a loan in relation to when they got started or were working in the industry?
The reason I ask this, is because I realize it was always difficult to work a minimum wage job and save enough money, while simultaneously having to spend money that go towards supporting a portfolio.
I've actually never had debt in my life before. Everything I've done so far I did work part/full time jobs and pay off with my own money. But now I'm at a point of my life where I'm too invested in 3D art, that going back to those jobs just to make a meager income (when games/vfx industry pays more) just doesn't feel appealing.
Again, I've never had any debts. But having heard of so many tales of people who go on loans, I'm wondering if I should do the same if I believe it can help me (while being able to pay it off the minute I do find actual industry work).
Replies
I guess it would be the same as taking a loan for school, but unless you have a house or something to put up as a security, I guess it would be hard to get such a loan right? except those risky high % loans.
There was a massive 3D job fair in my area recently but I turned it down at the last second. I had intentions to go and speak with employers I just need 3 ~ 4 more weeks to finish everything I have. But I thought this would have looked bad since I didn't want to repeat the same mistake at my last job interview where I told employers I was still unprepared (i.e I just began learning how to use Substance Painter after spending years in Photoshop/Mudbox).
I basically want to make an "all in effort" where I can finally show all my work is not in the WIP stage, but during the time I do this I'm started to thin out on my savings.
The downside is as you mentioned, a bank would be hesitant to loan someone on just being an artist.
I'm honestly not saying this to be rude, I just think putting yourself in debt for this is the wrong way to go when you could accomplish your goal without taking a huge risk.
None of that isn't something I haven't done (though not for 3d), so don't think it's impossible. You probably don't need to go so extreme, but the point is, if you really want to get into a new profession, you'll find a way without begging.
When a poor person wants to accomplish something, it takes discipline and sacrifice. Probably an unhealthy amount, so you have to keep the long view in mind. I doubt anybody is going to give you money for nothing.
To be honest I disagree with the idea that a person needs to eschew every other aspect of their life in order to become a 3d artist. Yes it is going to require discipline and some sacrifice but not at the cost of health and personal relationships. Cutting out everything in your life that isn't 3d art is probably going to result in some serious burnout.
Being disciplined and setting aside time each day or week to devote to working on your portfolio shouldn't require unhealthy eating or living habits. Eat healthy, exercise regularly, keep up other aspects of your life that make you happy. Unless you're working multiple full time jobs there should still be plenty of time to devote to practicing 3d art.
I doubt the bank would consider giving you a loan for you to work on your portfolio. Unless you had property, that is not a car, that is worth way more than the loan for collateral. And even then that is not a smart financial decision for you to take. There is no guarantee you will get a job in the time you need to start paying back the loan. What happens if you end up unable to work on your portfolio for the majority of the time you have budgeted because the day after you get the loan you are involved in a freak accident or sudden serious illness?
Your best bet is to work during any of your spare time that you are not sleeping (within reason dont neglect health, family and friends). Pick a studio or group of studios with similar art styles you want to work at. Then pick a scene to make in that art style. Then break it down into small parts and only focus on that part until its done. then repeat until the scene is done.
Its going to take you a while.
Also remember quality over quantity. 1 amazing prop piece > 5 crappy scenes.
I don't think a person needs to or ought to either. But I figure there will be lots of reasonable, balanced responses to OP's dilemma, and sometimes it helps a person to know that there is people out there who are willing to go much further than they are to meet the same end. Just motivation, that's all.
Also, when most aspects or your life are taken care of and you are comfortable, it's easier to see things from a balanced perspective. But when you are poor, in the hole, feeling desperate, sometimes you need to go to an extreme for awhile to dig yourself out of the place.
JMO, of course. I would never say, "alienate your friends and family," but maybe if the weekends are the best time you have for focused study, forget the bar-be-ques 90% of the time and stay home to study.
Perhaps give yourself two to max four weeks to polish your portfolio, which should be more than enough if you have invested any serious work before. If it's not, then more probably won't work wonders either and you'll have to get a non 3D job to buy some more time.
Maybe a payed internship might be an option, too, so you get some structure for your work that seems to be lacking.
The 5 C's of Credit:
Character: Is this borrower's character (financial history and credit history) such that it indicates the person makes payments on-time and does not default.
Capacity: What is the ability of the borrower (debt-to-income ratio and annual wages) to repay the debt.
Capital: Does the borrower intend to put-up money on the front-end, thereby increasing the chances of repayment and decreasing the risk of default?
Collateral: What is the asset that can be repossessed from the borrower in the event of default in order to recover the loan (this is partly why student loans in the USA cannot be discharged in bankruptcy)?
Conditions: What are the conditions of the loan (amount of principle, interest rate, etc . . .)
In my personal opinion, if you are under the belief that a personal loan is necessary to free-up time and guarantee successful entry into a higher-paying job, then it may well be worth it. However, given the highly competitive nature of the field, the rigors of the job, the high mobility requirements that can be present, the time it takes to pursue a job and the loss of income due to not having a job lined up, if I were a lender (I worked in banking for a while in loans FYI), I would be highly reluctant to give you a signature note. There are other methods of determining credit worthiness, but given you have no character (no credit history; you stated this), your capacity would be greatly diminished to service the loan, capital is not likely, and collateral would be non-existent (unless you have a house or car), and the conditions are such that I would consider such a loan very high-risk.
Ok, I lied. I am going to comment on whether or not to do it:
I am not a personal financial professional or CPA. But if I were approaching this from your situation (and to an extent I am), I would continue to work 9-5 and see where else I could give-up time to devote towards my portfolio. Don't give up all other aspects of your life, but there is likely something you can do less of, still be happy, and spend that time working towards your portfolio. Secondly, start building your credit. Get a small credit card, use it, pay it off every month. Treat it like a debit card only. Plus, you can get some cash back and/or airline miles that could assist you when you do need to go to interviews/conferences/etc . . . or just need a vacation.
My wife and I had been renting for awhile before we realized that we were essentially throwing our money away each month doing so. So, just like @Sigmafie said, we got some credit started by getting some of those beginner secured cards, and this took like a year or thereabouts before we had enough credit to get a loan. So we were nervous and uncertain but we went through and bought a house and now we pay the same as rent each month plus some utilities, but now the difference is that the money is being invested now rather than just going into somebody else's pocket. So when we move, we will either rent this place or sell it, and right now it is looking like there won't be any question of making a profit or not, just a question of how much.
Keep in mind, even once you get into your dream job (or any decent paying job), life isn't all hunky dory from there. I'd recommend taking some financial planning courses. These will help you immediately on the road to establishing credit, finding ways to save what you have now and live on less, but the knowledge is going help you further down the road most of all. I know lots of people who make a substantial income, and yet they still live paycheck to paycheck, or have massive debt. With some planning and discipline, you can avoid all of that, and live as comfortable as you can with what you make, rather than feeling like you always need more money.
BTW, I wasn't entirely serious when I said move to the country and live in a van, but IIRC OP lives in Toronto, and that is an expensive goddamn city. If I didn't have an extremely strong reason to remain there, I'd definitely get out of the city a bit to get some financial breathing room.
That said, I am most likely going to pass on a loan right now. I'm serious that I have created a lot of content that I plan on gambling with applying first first before I run out of my savings.
quitting or not having a day job does not mean you are going to be working on your portfolio 12 hours a day. A lot of people think like this and then when it comes down to it, they fall into an even bigger rut of not actually doing ANY work on their portfolio. To be honest, if you cant bring yourself to work on your portfolio from 7pm - 2am a few days a week after working a 9-5, getting rid of that 9-5 isn't going to help. that 7-2am window gives you 2200 hours a year to build whatever success you want for yourself, the question for you (and anyone in your situation) is: what have you been doing with those 2k hours for the last few years? looking to go into debt for more time when you already have 2k hours a year that are not being taken advantage of is not a good idea.
Everyone has the same 24 hours in a day, if someone like schwarzenegger can build a multi million dollar realestate empire before he was ever famouse, take english lessons, spend 3-6 hours a day bodybuilding in the gym and doing a shit ton of of stuff to crush their goals....im pretty sure you can put together a portfolio with 3-4 solid pieces in your free time, you just need to audit how you are spending your time. stop wasting time playing with fancy renderers or shiny tools instead of actually having content to put into them would be a great start.
I would NEVER take out a loan or put myself into debt as a gamble to buy time. If I was in your position (I was when I was trying to get into the industry 10 years ago) I would get a day job that pays me the most money possible for the least amount of exhausting work. and then every night when i go home I would use wanting to get outta that job as fuel to work on my portfolio. If I was consistently getting interviews already and it felt like I was almost there, I would maybe consider quitting a job and living off of savings, but I wouldnt take out any form of loan, I would rather figure out ways to cut expenses.
in my situation I was working 2 jobs, one day job, and a few night shifts at another to scrape by when I first moved out on my own. In between all that I was working on making art and it was slower but I was financially not stressed out. finally when I felt it was time for the final push to get industry ready, I had a savings of about 7k i had managed to stockpile over 6 months of working, so I moved back into my parents basement and cut all my expenses and focused on working on my portfolio, and a few months later got my 1st industry job.
holding up an 8 hour work day as an excuse as to why you are not making art is not really valid, there are plenty of other artists consistently making art in their evenings. and like I said, not having a job and thinking you are going to do 8-12 hours a day of art output is just not realistic, you will burn yourself out really fast.
I think you need to start posting all your art on polycount. every post you put out its always "almost done or almost ready" but there has been zero evidence of even any indication of your actual skill level for us to even really have context to give you proper advice. no more excuses or coming soon, if you want to be a professional artist, start mapping your actions to your words.
If I was back in the same situation as you, I would be posting as much art and output on poylcount, almost every single day if I could to not only take advantage of professionals critiques and advice, but to start building a reputation of someone whos actions are congruent with their words, because studios will definitely be diving deep into that kinda stuff before they consider hiring you. reputation and legacy are huge.
having some sort of income to give you the freedom to pursue you goals is a lot better than having a bunch of debt and stress over that. Yea having a job you hate sucks but if you need to pay your bills thats just the reality of being a responsible adult. You will get a lot more benefit from auditing how you are spending your free time than if you took out a loan to just keep wasting it.
Computer parts have failed. I'm using a slightly specced out 2009 computer which has been horrible but going ahead and buying another computer just wasn't optional right now.
I pay rent and also need to afford food. Overtime, all these costs started to add up and I got tired of working in mimimum wage because of all the horrible things people were doing to me. I'm still feeling the effects of this mistreatment so I believed in working extra hard to make money I could save and work on my portfolio in privacy.
I actually live in the part of the GTA where racism is extremely high and up in your face. It's only getting worse now that people living here are completely priced out from ever owning a home (i.e the best security asset one could have). A lot of horrible policies being dictated while I still get the blame shouldered on me. If I had a choice, I would definitely leave this area for greener pasture not just for job opportunities, but to actually have a future.
The first day I got my credit card (around 2011 - 2012 I think), I vowed I was never going to miss a payment or let a bill pile up. The first day of every month, I personally went to the bank and paid off whatever bill they sent me.
For 5 years straight, I NEVER MISSED a single payment. Not once. Not ever. Every single 1st day of the new month, it was paid, and the bank was there to see it.
I mention in another post that something has happened to me that is still too private to share on Polycount, but how I managed my finances had a huge effect on my actual output to post my projects on my polycount. It was something not a lot of people would know what to do if they were in my exact situation but it took a huge toll on me that I nearly almost gave up forever.
Somebody always has it worse. Forget the excuses, it doesn't matter if they are valid or not. When you focus your mental energy on stuff outside your control, you are wasting time you could be learning more and practicing to get closer to your goal. If you have two arms, one working eye, and half of a brain, you can get the work done. Of course it's nice to bitch about things and have somebody listen, that's what friends are for, right? But when it comes down to it, those are all just obstacles you are going to find a way around to meet your goals.
Remember the MeToo stuff of last year? If no one had the courage to speak up, very sick and abusive people would still be in the work environment right now, making the lives of other people miserable but forced to put up with it under threats. And this affected a lot of industries. Even our Art industry.
I'm not saying my life is worse than Iraq. I've definitely seen the chaos unfold in the middle east. But I'm in Canada. A country that touts itself as first world and yet here I am, talking about certain realities that contradict this image.
So you have your goals, and you have your obstacles. The question is, what are you going to do about it? Will you take a few hits and resign? Will you put in a long, drawn out, but half-effort fight only to fade-away into nothing? Will you throw yourself all-in, fighting tooth and claw? Will you sit back awhile, take notes, learn from others, and then come in with an unstoppable laser-focused attack?
When I was in high school, I did mixed martial arts for a few years. Something I learned is this : you can't win a fight if you prioritize not getting punched. You have to expose yourself to make your attack. So forget about the bloody noses and the pain, and tell yourself that no matter how far the enemy pushes things, you are going to go further. You stick to that mantra, and you almost cannot lose.
This is obviously simple metaphor. It goes without saying 3d art is a complex, mental task and doesn't have a direct correlation to hand-to-hand fighting, but the principle remains. You have you, you have a goal, and you have a tough obstacle. You have to be smart, strong, and determined, and you have to not be afraid of getting hurt.
People also say I only post 3D threads that were never finished, but I actually spend more time trying to read through every new thread posted and give back critique. For example, before I went to bed today, I did write a lengthy critique for someone making an environment. Everything I wrote in that post, is also the exact same critique I've been using to improve my personal projects I've been spending a lot of time on and getting ready to post soon.
The good news is I am finally back to using UE4 and I'm trying to remember everything I use to do with the engine from years ago. The negative news is, I still cannot explain in words why I have this content I have made and haven't posted them on Polycount yet.
It's definitely coming, I'm telling the truth. I do want to work in the game industry with all my heart's passion. But I'm still in the recovery phase and thinking of how to escape the current situation I'm in without looking crazy,incompetent etc.
You can always renew the student license, and you still own the art work you just cant sell it to anyone. but if you are having issues building a portfolio to land a job the ability to sell your work at that point is irrelevant. especially if the money you are paying for a software license every year is not being made back. and The money you have put into a commercial license of 3ds max for one years subscription could have bought you the parts for a decent PC. build a portfolio that will get you work, and if someone asks you about doing free lance then worry about the overhead for a commercial license. until then its an unneeded expense.
Your artstation about page summary says you're "Looking to make that sweet, sweet, industry money."
Now while that is a valid reason for many to join the game industry, seeing your latest work is the best determinant of whether you are actually passionate about game art, or just want to join the game industry because of the "hype" aspect of it, which I see a whole lot in Toronto's massive and saturated predominantly student game developer market.
You mentioned a job fair in Toronto recently that you didn't attend because your work was not up to par. I'm guessing it was Taafi?
You said you needed a few weeks to finish the pieces you wanted to show employers, could you post those WIP pieces here for critique.
This would also give us a good idea about whether you're making the right kind of art that an employer would value.
This would also help to determine whether a loan would help you.
I mean while it would give you more time to invest into art, if after looking at your present work its understood that you're going to have a hard time getting any results in that time frame, you're only going to fall deeper in debt.
JordanN wrote:
People also say I only post 3D threads that were never finished, but I actually spend more time trying to read through every new thread posted and give back critique. For example, before I went to bed today, I did write a lengthy critique for someone making an environment. Everything I wrote in that post, is also the exact same critique I've been using to improve my personal projects I've been spending a lot of time on and getting ready to post soon.
Yeah, well look mate! just post/link/PM...whatever you've got in the pipe ATM there's more than a few of us willing too lend a hand critiquing your stuff, also intelligent move foregoing putting yourself into debt as far as a bank loan was concerned, in any event you wouldn't have qualified for.
A snippet albeit cross post via the OP's sister thread on CGTalk:
Originally Posted by JordanNVFX:
I'm going to post my work soon which will be 3 detailed environments (one is a city split into two parts, another is a Panasonic robotics factory, and the last one is stylized art based on The Iron Giant movie).
I should mention this is not actually the first time I've gotten critique/direction on my current portfolio. Back in 2016 after I came back from a failed job interview, I got advice on Polycount that I needed to make my art more ambitious. All my old art is being remade to take advantage of PBR, digital sculpting & displacement maps. I also received advice on Cgsociety as well that said the same thing (more complicated hardsurface props, more organic modelling etc). It's now a matter of me just heeding all this advice and making my final portfolio reflect everybody's comments.
I can confirm however, I wont take out a loan.
Before bowing out of this discussion, a further note in reference too this thread's authored circumstance. Now taking into account the litany of factor's the OP had shared, I find it not a little odd given his limited resources to then forecast embarking upon an over arching ambitious project which seems a tad disjointed at best in terms of direction, let alone finalised completion within the pre-stated proposed timeframe. Also additionally from my perspective shouldn't an emphasis be placed on generating a biased artistic acumen rather than attempt a 'generalist' approach?! with that said my parting advice is to concentrate on one of three enviro's, to then have a much better chance of outputting an aligned industry standard aesthetic, because as I'm sure the OP is well aware of:
"Your main competition are not those trying too get in but those artists already there"
To that end I think a useful link critiquing, in my honest opinion a quite polished example of an artist's animation demo reel, comprising of just a solitary enviro with animated stylised assets:
http://polycount.com/discussion/comment/2629006#Comment_2629006
P.S.
Hmm...the author still has a tendency too prolifically comment on divers topics both here and elsewhere. Anyways if as I had presumed that the initial enthused intent is to secure a role working in some part of the CG entertainment industry, I would've thought time penning one's thoughts is valuable time less spent working...
Don't take out a loan to live just keep working your normal job whatever that may be and just focus on 3D as much as possible.Once you get into a good habit you can push out assets pretty quickly. Its a sacrifice yes but one you get an industy job you can take a small breather. I would ask yourself why am I not getting assets done now and would taking out a loan really speed up that process. I would guess the answer to that question is a no, but at the end of the day its your choice. However you saying you have only been working part/fulltime and don't have any debt makes me think your younger, and have other people helping to support you.(COULD BE WRONG JUST THE VIBE I WAS GETTING) If that is the case and they don't mind then focus on 3d as much as possible in your free time. Don't work 24 hours a day on the stuff you will burn out at that pace. Keep your head up and move forward.
but posting a single screenshot from your projects here on pc for feedback first might be an easier first step. TBH at this point it sounds like you are painting the bars to your own cage, I don't say that to be mean, I just recognize similar behavior patterns in myself as well when it comes to certain things. Once you realize you are 100% in control of your life, then shit can get really interesting.