Blue circle is what I am doing now. The yellow circles are the base metal material that I do not touch yet.
I guess mine is too black. The base color shall be more "sky-blue" and reflects the light. Also, there are a lot of patterns such as scratches, noise, dust, dots... (I do not consider rust as pattern since rust is more like a spot)
I feel challenging to create the texture map with complex color spectrum. For example, this metal has black blue to gray blue to sky blue with green, purple, and red excluding rust.
However, I guess I figured out the approach which is using brush not fill layer :-)
I used to add a lot of layers to create the complex color. However, It will simply mix up the color to create another simple color. I need to use black mask and brush. And, I need to pound it manually. In this case, the base color is far black blue. But, I add sky blue using brush to create 'spectrum' :-)
As Brian suggested, I remove cloudy texture (at least the center of the mesh). Although I left some foggy texture on some area that I assume fingers touch mostly.
You need to make adjustments and add a mask to your roughness. Also all of your edges have this line that is supposed to be damage but it is never a straight line, and definetly NOT everywhere
So, I need to add roughness that means metal shall be less shining I need to scratch out the some edges not every edges but that cannot be straight line.
Before I apply the Larry's suggestion, I decided to modify my action slide first I remove some foggy from surface. I also adjust the brightness of the scratches and color of metal material from blue to blue gray as well.
Alex I think you have to understand that if you work with materials that are ready and inside substance painter you will only get so far. Yes you can adjust the material inside substance painter and make it have scratches and damage, but you can make your own material that is close to your reference and then make scratches etc.
Also, sticking too much in one project you cannot see what is wrong with it. I suggest you try and finish this by the end if december and then try and do the environmental challenge for january-february
One more thing. The 'blue tic' you are saying is not in the metal, it is the reflection from the sky. In general you might see this having 'problems' with color but it is just the environmental reflections
You don't need to necessarily go back into Substance Designer and make your own metal. It's my belief, for this, there's enough free materials online and already loaded for you to make something.
Buck up and finish texturing everything. Commit to just getting as far as you can, and then we can take a look at what you can do to improve it. You're gonna have to put in the time, not try to find a work around, so you can understand the fundamentals of this part of game art.
Stop working on the action slide, and get the rest of the components done.
Its nice that you are sticking with this for so long, but i agree with larry that too much time on a single project can potentially lead to "tunnel vision" at best so i agree that you should just finish this by the end of the month (for instance ) and move on to next fresh piece and apply everything you've learned working on this model. That being said, i believe a good fundamental knowledge of baking normal maps is essential, so i would suggest you go on a "pilgrimage" to the technical talk subforum and check the normal map baking and in depth explanations regarding their use and creation, since each piece will require specific approach to making low poly and/or cage for proper baking and there is no workaround except learning I mention normal baking because i can still see some seams on the action slide, and they could be avoided easily since you have enough geometry for proper bake. However - As both of the guys said, just finish this piece it doesn't matter if you are not 100% satisfied, just get it out and start something new, its gonna go much much easier.
For the materials in substance, you always have to have in mind that pbr will reflect the color of the sky off off reflective surfaces, so tumble the model around as you work, it may not be blue in albedo
Good job on the progress so far and sticking with it, the improvement is obvious, keep it up.
I am considering that maybe I keep doing this until the Christmas. And, then either I success or not, I plan to move on then revisiti again. I actually have a plan to create SF style grenade which is simpler than this N99 pistol. But, I believe that will be very beneficial to me to learn texturing.
About the seams... do you have any idea why it happens, and how can I remove it? I tried to get the programs that is very popular to bake the normal map. However, seems like it always create the seam.
I am glad I have a progress. I wish I have the "result" more than "progress". So, I can take a rest in the Christmas.
Thanks.
PS- I love your texturing work. Your microscope and console is so realistic and gorgeous. What programs do you use? I wish I can get a lesson from you.
Programs used are maya-xnormal-substance painter and marmoset for previewing/screenshots
For the seams really go and read the threads in technical talk about normal maps, people there explained it much much better than i could Quick explanation would be you are missing soft/hard edges and should use cage for baking, use the cage if the seams are still visible after you've tuned the soft/hard edges, these are really important when doing bakes because the influence the angle from which the normal map is going to be "projected" onto low poly model, but either way go to the treads and read them, i always go back to them when im doing bakes because every mesh is specific in its own way, and there is no "one solution to fix them all" approach to baking normal maps, but there are some general guidelines used to minimize bad bakes/errors/seams etc..
One thing comes to mind, can you share your uv's ? maybe you have issues there (like different texel density and shell sizes)
Now regarding materials/metals As much as substance painter is really a great tool to make your life easier for making textures, i tend to stay away from presets because i like to have control over every aspect of material (roughness/color in particular) Just think about how it would be made and weathered in real life, this case i guess there is really no paint over the gun, but very weathered metal with layers of non metallic dirt/oil/grease... think about what happens with the material when in use, like the front of the gun heats up and cools, giving metal a more matte look, oil tends to permanently matte the shiny metal as well, rust tends to give it variation and contrast not only in roughness but in metalness and color, so is nice to break up the "everything is blue metal" effect.
Result comes from doing the same thing over and over and over again expecting things to change (eventually they do ) so seriously don't worry about not getting results immediately, just do it to the best of your current abilities and move on to the next one. The idea for the grenade is very good for learning the baking process, so 100% support decision
It's the breakdown process that's important (at least i think so ) other technical stuff you can easily find online.
So take breaks, take time to study the reference/real world reference and keep up the good work.
As Larry suggested, those colors of metal are basically colors from the light.
So I convert reference image as black and white such as
From now on, every metals is nothing but black and white
Hello, Zodd. I really thanks to your advice.
As you said, I am using brush a lot to create dusty, rusty, oily, or matte of specific parts of metal. But, it never worked out.
At first, I thought maybe because of lack of talent or lack of years of practice. But, as you said, brush is difficult tool to create such complicated chaotic natural pattern.
So, I decided start again from the beginning (damn, this is 6th times that I flip over my table)
Use methods that is provided by painter such as "fill", "generator", or so far. Of course, I created base metal as you said(Empty layers with parameters). I am playing with this parameters.
And, this is what I've got
Tell you the truth, I believe this is not perfect. This is merely "base". However, I think I reach the limit.
As Brian suggested, I will texture on other parts but the quality will be around something like this level. I don't want to be Mr. negative. However, this is what I can do my best so far.
ok Alex, one last try. The last reference picture that you show makes it very clear. The gun has 2 materials. 1 material is this silver metal and above it there is another material, which is paint. So one thing i can say is wrong with your pistol, is that this "black paint" material that you have, has metalic value. Paint is not metal, so take the metalic to totally black and play a little bit with the roughness to get some reflection. VERY little reflection, do not overdo it. For the metal material that is the scratches, take the metalic to 0.9 (not full white) and use some color like this https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ce/89/ec/ce89ecb5520c77174489368dc2371024--blue-black-paint-colors-black-and-blue-decor.jpg the top 2 colors are okay. Then play with the mask generators to get a good and realistic scratch effect. Alegorithmic has a great video on this that you can copy EXACTLY what he does https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fCF5HPc5_c&index=13&list=PLB0wXHrWAmCx994Cb7iRFSmupYHFw5DTx One last thing, you have to put some color variation for your black paint. Also do not make it fully black, but dark gray. Nothing in the earth is fully black Even vantablack has 0.9 black in it.
Ok, now slowly start increasing value and take care not to increase saturation too much, essentially make it lighter gray and just a bit blue-ish but dont overdo it
Sry for simple reply, im typing this from phone and cant open too many images
The results you've shown before are negliglbe at best right now. The horizontal streaks are fine, but it's all still reading as monotone grey, which is fine.
Alex, just texture the whole gun. You've been niggling away at this ONE action slide for days. JUst texture the whole thing so we can take a look at it all at once. Most gamers rarely focus on a gun component for THAT long.
Thanks Brian. I did not mean to ignore your advice.
It just.. you know people told me to do something better way. And, their advice is very worthy to me flipping over table. Such as "do not add metallic value on the paint elements", "play with parameter values" etc.
I will finish the whole gun. Fortunately, this gun has only two materials.
Man, I wish I can spend my Christmas with some result :-)
Go to bake maps and bake an "id map" and in the parameters change from "vertex color" to "mesh id" Then you can apply a color mask, and on the right side it says "pick color" and then you can pick as many objects as you want
I would like to apply the texture of blue circle to the yellow circle mesh. That's why I use color selection. However, seems like some of them works. But, the others do not.
I would like to apply the texture of blue circle to the yellow circle mesh. That's why I use color selection. However, seems like some of them works. But, the others do not.
Do you know why?
right click on the layer and choose "mask by color selection" then on the right side there will be a button that says "pick color". You pick one mesh then click again on the button "pick color" and chose the next one
what you want is at 7:30 until 8:00 nothing else. Do not make any of the other stuff he did, just do in your layer what he does at 7:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT7aSVxCD5E
So far I add dusty pattern. And, peel off the edges.
It still is not perfect. comparing from this one:
The reason.. is the "opacity". In the reference image, you can see the core metal that is a gun look through the paint because paint is peeling off naturally. In mine, you can't still see the core metal through paint.
Imagine red is the "core metal material" blue is the "reference image metal material" yellow is mine.
I use filter, generator, painter, brush... so far. But, It seems unnatural.
It is kind of looking better than previous images. Alex i think you are working in 1 layer with many stuff applied on it.Do you know the importance of layers in substance painter? Leave everything as it is now, and make a new fill layer on top of this, apply a very shiny metal material from the shelf, and change color to silver/gray. After that, create layer effect for scratches and use the curvature map to show the shiny metal ONLY in edges.It doesn't need to look realistic scratch effect, just do this and post it here to tell you the next step :P
Opacity does seem to be the issue, Depending on the layer order and content the solutions would be to: If you are using generator to make edge wear increase the contrast of the mask so the edges are sharper since as Brian said its either worn or not worn, and in case the paint is scratched only thing that would differentiate it from the rest would be roughness and/or height (height in case you have enough resolution in texture space) If you are painting them manually then turn off pen pressure and use hard brush (essentially what Brian said) And add a bit of high shine metal to get the contrast (Larry's suggestion)
Also look at the difference between yours and target images, on the target you have much less detail and edge wear is not present on every edge, only on parts that would receive damage/would be handled often, and everywhere else its just a subtle variation on roughness and color. But, this is material detail, don't start doing it now so you don't lose the focus, but have in mind that if you are not satisfied in the end try adding those micro details, like black speckles, small dents but as always don't go overboard.
What you may try is work the opposite way, make a fill layer with shiny metal > apply mask > apply edge damage > increase the intensity > add paint to mask and paint out (delete) the edge wear that is not needed. This gives you a good starting point so you don't have to be as careful while painting the edge wear manually (difficult to paint on edges evenly)
Now the above suggestions are just that, suggestions, if you find another solution that works better for you use that instead Also i agree that it looks a bit better now in terms of value and material quality.
Replies
Thanks wormo! Nice to meet you.
I like your nes and motorcycle. I wish one day I can create motorcycle just like you did. :-)
Brian "Panda" Choi
This is what I've done so far:
Blue circle is what I am doing now. The yellow circles are the base metal material that I do not touch yet.
I guess mine is too black. The base color shall be more "sky-blue" and reflects the light.
Also, there are a lot of patterns such as scratches, noise, dust, dots... (I do not consider rust as pattern since rust is more like a spot)
Good progress. You're right, that gun is too black.
Thanks Larry. I gotta finish this as early as possible.
Brian "Panda" Choi
I feel challenging to create the texture map with complex color spectrum. For example, this metal has black blue to gray blue to sky blue with green, purple, and red excluding rust.
However, I guess I figured out the approach which is using brush not fill layer :-)
I used to add a lot of layers to create the complex color. However, It will simply mix up the color to create another simple color.
I need to use black mask and brush. And, I need to pound it manually.
In this case, the base color is far black blue. But, I add sky blue using brush to create 'spectrum' :-)
Hope this is ok.
It got all cloudy instead of looking like a brushed metal.
Do you see the metal as cloudy in the original concept? Or do you want it to be cloudy?
@Larry
Brian "Panda" Choi
As Brian suggested, I remove cloudy texture (at least the center of the mesh). Although I left some foggy texture on some area that I assume fingers touch mostly.
I also add some metallic material as well.
Brian "Panda" Choi
I also add some blue color on the mesh. Consider this as Type B
Nice to meet you Olingova :-)
As you suggested, I added some scratches mostly on the edge part, and little bit on the face part.
Brian "Panda" Choi
I am now doing the body part
If slide is the blue-cold-tic metal, the body is the hot-red-tic metal :-)
Brian "Panda" Choi
This is what I've done so far.
Hope you people like it :-)
Could you please tell me detail?
So, I need to add roughness that means metal shall be less shining
I need to scratch out the some edges not every edges but that cannot be straight line.
Am I right?
Brian "Panda" Choi
Before I apply the Larry's suggestion, I decided to modify my action slide first
I remove some foggy from surface.
I also adjust the brightness of the scratches and color of metal material from blue to blue gray as well.
Brian "Panda" Choi
I add blue-tic color on the metal of action slide
I actually must tell this first. I changed my reference or "ideal goal" for my texturing
https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/59835/?tab=3&selected_game=130&navtag=http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/ajax/modimages/?id=59835&user=1&gid=130
This is what I want to copy as same as possible.
And, this is what I've done so far:
Mine is kind of... peel off too much.
But If I add more color, it will looking like blue metal. Not blue-tic metal.
I hope I am on the right track :-)
Also, sticking too much in one project you cannot see what is wrong with it. I suggest you try and finish this by the end if december and then try and do the environmental challenge for january-february
You are right Larry. Substance Painter provides very good base material. But, I guess base is not good enough.
I guess it's time to learn create my own texture using designer or photoshop.
Buck up and finish texturing everything. Commit to just getting as far as you can, and then we can take a look at what you can do to improve it. You're gonna have to put in the time, not try to find a work around, so you can understand the fundamentals of this part of game art.
Stop working on the action slide, and get the rest of the components done.
Its nice that you are sticking with this for so long, but i agree with larry that too much time on a single project can potentially lead to "tunnel vision" at best
That being said, i believe a good fundamental knowledge of baking normal maps is essential, so i would suggest you go on a "pilgrimage" to the technical talk subforum and check the normal map baking and in depth explanations regarding their use and creation, since each piece will require specific approach to making low poly and/or cage for proper baking and there is no workaround except learning
I mention normal baking because i can still see some seams on the action slide, and they could be avoided easily since you have enough geometry for proper bake.
However - As both of the guys said, just finish this piece it doesn't matter if you are not 100% satisfied, just get it out and start something new, its gonna go much much easier.
For the materials in substance, you always have to have in mind that pbr will reflect the color of the sky off off reflective surfaces, so tumble the model around as you work, it may not be blue in albedo
Good job on the progress so far and sticking with it, the improvement is obvious, keep it up.
Hello, Zodd. Nice to meet you.
I am considering that maybe I keep doing this until the Christmas. And, then either I success or not, I plan to move on then revisiti again.
I actually have a plan to create SF style grenade which is simpler than this N99 pistol. But, I believe that will be very beneficial to me to learn texturing.
About the seams... do you have any idea why it happens, and how can I remove it?
I tried to get the programs that is very popular to bake the normal map. However, seems like it always create the seam.
I am glad I have a progress. I wish I have the "result" more than "progress". So, I can take a rest in the Christmas.
Thanks.
PS- I love your texturing work. Your microscope and console is so realistic and gorgeous. What programs do you use? I wish I can get a lesson from you.
Ill try and explain to the best of my english
Programs used are maya-xnormal-substance painter and marmoset for previewing/screenshots
For the seams really go and read the threads in technical talk about normal maps, people there explained it much much better than i could
Quick explanation would be you are missing soft/hard edges and should use cage for baking, use the cage if the seams are still visible after you've tuned the soft/hard edges, these are really important when doing bakes because the influence the angle from which the normal map is going to be "projected" onto low poly model, but either way go to the treads and read them, i always go back to them when im doing bakes because every mesh is specific in its own way, and there is no "one solution to fix them all" approach to baking normal maps, but there are some general guidelines used to minimize bad bakes/errors/seams etc..
One thing comes to mind, can you share your uv's ? maybe you have issues there (like different texel density and shell sizes)
Now regarding materials/metals
As much as substance painter is really a great tool to make your life easier for making textures, i tend to stay away from presets because i like to have control over every aspect of material (roughness/color in particular)
Just think about how it would be made and weathered in real life, this case i guess there is really no paint over the gun, but very weathered metal with layers of non metallic dirt/oil/grease... think about what happens with the material when in use, like the front of the gun heats up and cools, giving metal a more matte look, oil tends to permanently matte the shiny metal as well, rust tends to give it variation and contrast not only in roughness but in metalness and color, so is nice to break up the "everything is blue metal" effect.
Result comes from doing the same thing over and over and over again expecting things to change (eventually they do
It's the breakdown process that's important (at least i think so
So take breaks, take time to study the reference/real world reference and keep up the good work.
Cheers
Hello.
First, I need to say this.
As Larry suggested, those colors of metal are basically colors from the light.
So I convert reference image as black and white such as
From now on, every metals is nothing but black and white
Hello, Zodd. I really thanks to your advice.
As you said, I am using brush a lot to create dusty, rusty, oily, or matte of specific parts of metal. But, it never worked out.
At first, I thought maybe because of lack of talent or lack of years of practice. But, as you said, brush is difficult tool to create such complicated chaotic natural pattern.
So, I decided start again from the beginning (damn, this is 6th times that I flip over my table)
Use methods that is provided by painter such as "fill", "generator", or so far. Of course, I created base metal as you said(Empty layers with parameters). I am playing with this parameters.
And, this is what I've got
Tell you the truth, I believe this is not perfect. This is merely "base". However, I think I reach the limit.
As Brian suggested, I will texture on other parts but the quality will be around something like this level. I don't want to be Mr. negative.
However, this is what I can do my best so far.
The gun has 2 materials.
1 material is this silver metal and above it there is another material, which is paint.
So one thing i can say is wrong with your pistol, is that this "black paint" material that you have, has metalic value. Paint is not metal, so take the metalic to totally black and play a little bit with the roughness to get some reflection. VERY little reflection, do not overdo it.
For the metal material that is the scratches, take the metalic to 0.9 (not full white) and use some color like this
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ce/89/ec/ce89ecb5520c77174489368dc2371024--blue-black-paint-colors-black-and-blue-decor.jpg the top 2 colors are okay.
Then play with the mask generators to get a good and realistic scratch effect. Alegorithmic has a great video on this that you can copy EXACTLY what he does
One last thing, you have to put some color variation for your black paint. Also do not make it fully black, but dark gray. Nothing in the earth is fully black
Sry for simple reply, im typing this from phone and cant open too many images
@Zodd
Thanks both of you.
Damn, I watched that tutorial several months ago. During that time, I did not understand. But, now, I can.
This is my base metal:
And, this is my base metal with paint (don't worry about the color. It is for distinguishing purpose). This one has no material.
This is my second paint pattern. This is steel paint material without metal map
This is my third paint pattern. This is steel wear and rust without metal map as well
This is the all of paint pattern combine into one. Now, I am going to convert
blue to dark grey
red to middle grey
green to light grey
This is the result. I change the order of layers and color value as well.
This is not done yet.
Alex, just texture the whole gun. You've been niggling away at this ONE action slide for days. JUst texture the whole thing so we can take a look at it all at once. Most gamers rarely focus on a gun component for THAT long.
Thanks Brian. I did not mean to ignore your advice.
It just.. you know people told me to do something better way. And, their advice is very worthy to me flipping over table.
Such as "do not add metallic value on the paint elements", "play with parameter values" etc.
I will finish the whole gun. Fortunately, this gun has only two materials.
Man, I wish I can spend my Christmas with some result :-)
For the paint color, you should paint something like this but not so strong details
https://lostandtaken.com/wp-content/uploads/edd/2016/02/concrete-grey-grunge-textures-2.jpg
As you see, the texture of the action slide (blue circle) and the texture of top body part of gun (red circle) share pretty much same material.
The issue is.. that because of the black mask (yellow circle), I cannot apply the same material on the red circle area.
I tried to remove black masks, filling, saving as custom smart material.. but, it all failed.
How can I apply same material but different mesh?
Then you can apply a color mask, and on the right side it says "pick color" and then you can pick as many objects as you want
So far, I bake the id map
However, I lost what to do.
How can I apply color mask?
Where is the pick color? like pick color in material?
OK.. I have a color selection issue here.
I would like to apply the texture of blue circle to the yellow circle mesh.
That's why I use color selection. However, seems like some of them works. But, the others do not.
Do you know why?
I solve the problem. And, as Brian suggested, I finished texturing whole gun.
I guess I need to improve this from this point.
Forget about white hammer thing. I found some error on their. I will fix it later.
And, try to looking like a scratch out some black paint oh the faces.
It still is not perfect. comparing from this one:
The reason.. is the "opacity".
In the reference image, you can see the core metal that is a gun look through the paint because paint is peeling off naturally.
In mine, you can't still see the core metal through paint.
Imagine red is the "core metal material"
blue is the "reference image metal material"
yellow is mine.
I use filter, generator, painter, brush... so far. But, It seems unnatural.
Turn off pen pressure on your brush when you're applying the eedge wear. You're painting in shapes, NOT different stroke strengths.
Alex i think you are working in 1 layer with many stuff applied on it.Do you know the importance of layers in substance painter?
Leave everything as it is now, and make a new fill layer on top of this, apply a very shiny metal material from the shelf, and change color to silver/gray. After that, create layer effect for scratches and use the curvature map to show the shiny metal ONLY in edges.It doesn't need to look realistic scratch effect, just do this and post it here to tell you the next step :P
Depending on the layer order and content the solutions would be to:
If you are using generator to make edge wear increase the contrast of the mask so the edges are sharper since as Brian said its either worn or not worn, and in case the paint is scratched only thing that would differentiate it from the rest would be roughness and/or height (height in case you have enough resolution in texture space)
If you are painting them manually then turn off pen pressure and use hard brush (essentially what Brian said)
And add a bit of high shine metal to get the contrast (Larry's suggestion)
Also look at the difference between yours and target images, on the target you have much less detail and edge wear is not present on every edge, only on parts that would receive damage/would be handled often, and everywhere else its just a subtle variation on roughness and color.
But, this is material detail, don't start doing it now so you don't lose the focus, but have in mind that if you are not satisfied in the end try adding those micro details, like black speckles, small dents but as always don't go overboard.
What you may try is work the opposite way, make a fill layer with shiny metal > apply mask > apply edge damage > increase the intensity > add paint to mask and paint out (delete) the edge wear that is not needed.
This gives you a good starting point so you don't have to be as careful while painting the edge wear manually (difficult to paint on edges evenly)
Now the above suggestions are just that, suggestions, if you find another solution that works better for you use that instead
Also i agree that it looks a bit better now in terms of value and material quality.