N99 Pistol from Fallout New Vegas (Critique are welcome)

134
alex_kim
triangle
Offline / Send Message
alex_kim triangle
Reference Art:



Low poly:


High Poly:


UV (low poly version):


All critiques are welcomed :-)

Replies

  • Brian "Panda" Choi
    Round off the pistol grip "edges."  Boxy grips are uncomfortable to hold.

    It's a good start, but it this your high poly ro low poly?
  • JoshuaG
    Offline / Send Message
    JoshuaG polycounter lvl 4
    Yup, the edges need to be very softened. 
    To give you an idea, here's how it'll look when baked down when your edges are too hard. You also don't unwrap the high poly. 








    Another suggestion is that if you're learning how to make high poly models for baking down, do not model off of a video game asset since they're low poly. Make a real world asset.
  • alex_kim
    Offline / Send Message
    alex_kim triangle
    Round off the pistol grip "edges."  Boxy grips are uncomfortable to hold.

    It's a good start, but it this your high poly ro low poly?
    Actually, it is low to high.
  • Ashervisalis
    Offline / Send Message
    Ashervisalis greentooth
    You should spend more time UV mapping the gun to get the best density for your textures. It'd also be good to show your model a few times without the wireframes. Since you already UV'd your model, I'm guessing you're using this as your low poly, but the part of the gun I circled below is way too high poly for the low poly version. There are also a ton of edges which aren't doing anything for the shape of the weapon and should be dropped.


  • alex_kim
    Offline / Send Message
    alex_kim triangle
    @Ashervisalis

    Hello, nice to meet you. 

    I also thought same thing last night. I thought maybe I beveled the edges formally without thinking.
    There are some replica images on the web, I guess I should see those, and bevel it as real as possible.

    Thanks.


  • z0mbie
    Offline / Send Message
    z0mbie vertex
    Looks good. I can only really echo what others have said. Considering this is lo poly, any edges you put in should be purely functional. Even if an edge does affect the shape of the asset, unless it's significant, it probably isn't worth it.  As @alex_kim said, the part of the gun they highlighted was not necessary for the lo poly.  I would also add that not all game assets are lo poly and it doesn't mean that you can't create a hi poly version of an already existing lo poly asset. If you're learning, it's about having fun, too!
  • alex_kim
    Offline / Send Message
    alex_kim triangle
    @z0mbie

    Hello, nice to meet you.

    Would you please explain little bit more specific? English is not my first language ... Sorry.

    What's the meaning of "functional"? means bad? not good? So far I understood it means "real" not illusion from normal map. Am I right?

    What do you mean "edge does affect the shape of the asset" ? 

    " I would also add that not all game assets are lo poly and it doesn't mean that you can't create a hi poly version of an already existing lo poly asset. If you're learning, it's about having fun"

    So far I understood, "if lo-poly and hi-poly are the same, then do not create hi-poly. I does not have to be lo-poly with normal map always"
    am I right?
  • alex_kim
    Offline / Send Message
    alex_kim triangle
    Ok, I guess the issue is the "beveled edges"

    Let me bevel the edges again. This time, I will crate bevel as real as possible based on replicas.
    I will not consider # of polygons for now.
  • Brian "Panda" Choi
    You could jsut medium poly  model this, and it would be more economical.

    But if the asset is JUST this pistol, and if you're intending this to be seen from a first person camera, you're going to want to give it the high poly treatment to get a strong normal map.  If you're only intending this to be ever seen from a third person perspective at distance, your final shots should really emphasize this.

    Medium poly modeling has been most often used for repeatable, non-hero assets: lamp posts, barrels, crates, etc.  Something like the Fallout pistol here is what I would consider a hero asset, and a lot of other game artists will recognize it as such.

    Right now you have a good model base, but you're not quite ready tor retopo this.  Get this looking good with a high poly model (if you go that route) before you commit to a low poly model retopology.

    Once again, forms like the pistol grip should be rounded off.  On one end, it's a feasibility of the object in real life.  In  another, it's' creating different interestsing forms on one object, because right now you're ALL hard geometric lines throughout the weapon.

    That reference you have above, I'm pretty sure that's the third person version of the asset they have in Fallout, for when you pick it up off the ground or see it on another NPC, NOT the first person version.

    Bethesda most likely made that AFTER they made the original first person version of the pistol.

    Does any of that  not make sense, by any chance?
  • alex_kim
    Offline / Send Message
    alex_kim triangle
    @Ashervisalis 
    Brian "Panda" Choi 

    Thanks both of you. I guess I should create the model as good as possible without worrying number of polygons.
    I will post my modified N99 as fast as possible. And then, let's see what I need to do.

    Thanks again. I guess I really need to focus on the edges.

  • Brian "Panda" Choi
    We're around.  I'm open to Google Hangouts or something if you want some real-time feedback.
  • alex_kim
    Offline / Send Message
    alex_kim triangle
    @Ashervisalis 
    Brian "Panda" Choi 

    I created new version of lo-poly N99



    Last time, I beveled the edges manually a.k.a without thinking.

    This time, I bevel the edges based on the reference actual pistol images especially hand-grip part.

    I also add extra segments to create rounded soft edges. In this case, I do not consider # of polygons that much.

    Is this fine? Should I move on to next stage such as uv map? 

  • Brian "Panda" Choi
    Do you mind rendering this in Unreal, Toolbag, or Uniity?  Maya's viewport tends to be crap.

    Like right here, there's barely any useful shadow or lighting information.  We'd have no clear understanding of what this would even look like in-game.


  • alex_kim
    Offline / Send Message
    alex_kim triangle
    Brian "Panda" Choi 

    Ooops. Let me upload new images using substance painter

    Please gimme some time. I will upload it within 30 minutes.
  • alex_kim
    Offline / Send Message
    alex_kim triangle
    Brian "Panda" Choi 
    or if you are busy.. now is 11:45 am In my time zone

    I will upload new upload before 2:00 pm in my time zone. I don't know which time zone you people are living now.
  • alex_kim
    Offline / Send Message
    alex_kim triangle
    Brian "Panda" Choi 
    Sorry to change my word. But, looks like something is not right about substance painter.

    I will upload new image with better rendering within 1 hour. Sorry.
  • alex_kim
    Offline / Send Message
    alex_kim triangle

    Brian "Panda" Choi 
    This is exactly same mesh but different rendering. The texture is bad since I did not unwrap the uv map yet.

    Should I move on to next stage? Or, is there anything I should do before?
  • Brian "Panda" Choi
    Texturing it at all with a metal material is making this hard to read.  Just give it a flat color next time, stop overcomplicating this if you can help it.  OR just run a quick automatic unwrap if there'ss till weird stretching and artifacts occuring.  Ir eally just recommend dumping it into a simple three light scene in Unreal or Unity next time if you don't have willing access to something like Toolbag.

    You gotta soften your hard edges more.  Do you not feel like they're soft enough or?

    By the way, your attempts to tag me are not pinging my notifications if that was your intention.



  • alex_kim
    Offline / Send Message
    alex_kim triangle


    I beveled it again as you recommended.

    Don't worry about yellow circle. I will fix it.

    About the blue part.. I would not like to touch it (if it is not big issue) since it may disrupts entire structures of grip part.

    Any other idea, comment, or recommendation?

    Thanks.
  • Brian "Panda" Choi
    You could just quickly fill the hole of the blue part, and boolean out a new shape really quickly.  Have you figuerd out how to do boolean modeling yet in Maya?  If your reference is an existing asset like the N99, you're gonna wanna match it as best as possible.

    The back edge of the action slide still needs a overall medium bevel.

    The indentation on the action slide side is still jsut a wedge.  It needs to be a curve to reflect the existing reference.

    You're getting there.  Keep pushing.  The stuff you're mentioning that you don;'t want to change can be improved in accuracy if you only put some mroe elbow grease into it.
  • Larry
    Offline / Send Message
    Larry keyframe
    @alex_kim
    This model is looking much better than your previous which were really low poly.
    You must understand better, when to bevel more, and when to remove edges.
    The other people say "functional" edges and they mean edges that have a meaning
    In the picture, all the edges with arrows can be removed and YOU WILL HAVE EXACTLY the same model!
    This is why i asked you to make a model without worrying about # of polygons
    You must understand what is good quality with low geometry...!

  • z0mbie
    Offline / Send Message
    z0mbie vertex
    Sorry for the late reply, your tag didn't come up in my notifications.

    Luckily what I said has already been explained but I'll respond directly:

    A functional edge/polygon is one that keeps the shape of the asset. As @Larry said, if there are lots of edges/polygons in the middle that don't change the shape of the asset then they are useless so get rid of them.

    Regarding lo-poly vs. hi-poly. If you're learning and this isn't part of a project, then don't worry about the polygon count. If you are learning modelling, focus on clean topology and good UV's. Once you've got the basics right you can worry about polygon count and figure out creative ways to keep the polygon count relevant without changing the way the asset looks too much.

    I hope this helps!
  • alex_kim
    Offline / Send Message
    alex_kim triangle
    Brian "Panda" Choi
    @z0mbie
    @Ashervisalis 

    Sorry I was late. Here's my recent version




    This is lo-poly. UV is not done yet.

    As you people recommended, I re-shaped the top of the action slide, trigger area, and grip part :-)




  • Larry
    Offline / Send Message
    Larry keyframe
    Ok, that was an improvement. Let me download the picture and recommend some things to make it better. This is still not a low poly. It is considered mid poly. Wait a bit i'm sending a picture in the next 15 minutes
  • Larry
    Offline / Send Message
    Larry keyframe
    Sorry for the quality, i am in a crappy laptop with no mouse and i only have MS paint.

    From a technical point, you have many errors in the way you build your model.

    1) your main part is only 1 piece, so when you want to bevel edges, the edge loop goes ALL AROUND the model = extra geometry.All the green lines i made, show that you can have different pieces, not just 1 piece. 

    2) All the red lines show all the geometry that you can bake in normal map. What i mean is, All these small windows and panels and hand grip as well can be in your high poly, but not in the low poly. Normal map will make it seem lke there are small windows, but it can be only 1 polygon. When i go home i will show you a better example for this

    3) Blue lines show that you have alot of extra edges. Why do you bevel with 4 edges every time? 2 will make the same result. Also, bevel more, bevel bigger edges. Your bevels are very small, and in the end it still seems like no bevel at all.


    number 1: this is a "hard edge" it has 90 degrees and it is bad for lighting. Very small and unimportant objects can have this. Bad for baking.

    number 2: Best quality for low poly objects for baking

    number 3: Best balance between quality and number of polygons

    number 4: Alot of extra geometry that you only put for very very good quality/realistic pieces and generally, if you dont have problem with polygons.

    In your weapon you must do number 2 and maybe number 3. And bevel with bigger number than you do now.

    Hopefully you understand better now :)
  • alex_kim
    Offline / Send Message
    alex_kim triangle
    @Larry



    Ok, Larry. If your green means yellow that shall not be one piece, here we are.

    Blue is roof of pistol
    Red is the action slide
    Yellow is the main body
    Green is laser pointer

    Well, I actually checked the replicas of N99 pistol and real pistol parts from web. I try to create something as realistic.

    I did not tell you yet, but I also created gun work bench as you showed me before. And, that guy also represented the dissembles of gun such as spring, trigger, bolts etc. I think it is brilliant idea. So I created mine as I can dissemble.

    Do you think those cannot be one piece still? 

  • alex_kim
    Offline / Send Message
    alex_kim triangle
    @Larry 



    This is the whole structure. My plan was to showing my pistol right next from the parts such as magazine, nozzle, trigger, bolts, etc on the work-bench.

    If I need to create some parts not in one piece,  I may need to do this again from the beginning. :-)

  • alex_kim
    Offline / Send Message
    alex_kim triangle
    By the way when I mean "not in one piece" that means


    Something like this. It looks line one piece. But it is not in actual.
    This this what you mean?


  • Larry
    Offline / Send Message
    Larry keyframe
    No it is fine. This can be your mid poly. Copy your pistol to the side, and remove as many edges as you can, without changing the shape. And make all your bevels with 2 edges. Then post it here to tell you the next step
  • Larry
    Offline / Send Message
    Larry keyframe
    All your pieces are fine. Leave all objects like this, no need to split them more. Just do the steps I recomended above
  • alex_kim
    Offline / Send Message
    alex_kim triangle
    @Larry 

    Thanks Larry.

    I was kind of scared when you said mine is one piece so structure is bad :-)

    Let me handle this edge issue. Maybe It will take a lot of time. Please do not wait for me for now :-)

    Always thanks.
  • Larry
    Offline / Send Message
    Larry keyframe
    Alex this time i will go step by step with you to make sure you do things correctly and get a portfolio piece okay?
  • alex_kim
    Offline / Send Message
    alex_kim triangle


    @Larry 

    By the way, about the normal map... 

    Those circles are the parts that can be baked so I can save # of polygons. 
    However, I actually tried to bake those parts but it ended up not well.

    I did not save the previous file, but as I remembered

    1) Red Area: Yes, it was looking like there is a hole. However, since this gun is for FPS game purpose, everyone will recognize it is optical illusion (which is the essence of normal map) when I closed up the camera like FPS-gun-holding angle.

    2) Yellow Area: Same problem goes on red area

    3) Blue Area: Maybe I could try this one this time..

    4) Green Area: Everything is fine except I need to assign different material on the mesh. 


    Actually.. those circle areas do not have that many polygons. Do you think my boss will not like it if I do not bake that part?
    The main issue is that I need to close up this object like a FPS-user-point-view-angle. Maybe because of my lack of skill, but everyone will see that there is no hole but optical illusion.


  • Larry
    Offline / Send Message
    Larry keyframe
    alex_kim said:


    @Larry 

    By the way, about the normal map... 

    Those circles are the parts that can be baked so I can save # of polygons. 
    However, I actually tried to bake those parts but it ended up not well.

    I did not save the previous file, but as I remembered

    1) Red Area: Yes, it was looking like there is a hole. However, since this gun is for FPS game purpose, everyone will recognize it is optical illusion (which is the essence of normal map) when I closed up the camera like FPS-gun-holding angle.

    2) Yellow Area: Same problem goes on red area

    3) Blue Area: Maybe I could try this one this time..

    4) Green Area: Everything is fine except I need to assign different material on the mesh. 


    Actually.. those circle areas do not have that many polygons. Do you think my boss will not like it if I do not bake that part?
    The main issue is that I need to close up this object like a FPS-user-point-view-angle. Maybe because of my lack of skill, but everyone will see that there is no hole but optical illusion.


    This problem with optical illusion is something your boss will decide, if they want to bake it or not. The reason this seems like optical illusion is because it too much outside the gun. You can bring it closer to the gun and bake it, and nobody will understand the difference. I will also make this example when i get home to show you
  • Larry
    Offline / Send Message
    Larry keyframe
    The blue circle seems like they don't have a lot of polygons, but the edge loop goes all around your pistol. It's alot of extra geometry you dont need. So you can keep the blue circle part, but you need to end the edge loops just ourside that shape *IN A FLAT AREA*. If you don't end edge loops in flat area, you get smooth errors
  • Brian "Panda" Choi
    The proportional size of the trigger guard relative to the pistol grip is off.  I can't see a regular human hand easily wrapping itself around the handle.  That needs to be fixed.  The silhouette is right, it's just that the size is wrong.

    This is getting along, though.

    @alex_kim If this is meant to be a weapon for first person view, why not go for best quality and get this baked from a high poly model?
  • Larry
    Offline / Send Message
    Larry keyframe
    The proportional size of the trigger guard relative to the pistol grip is off.  I can't see a regular human hand easily wrapping itself around the handle.  That needs to be fixed.  The silhouette is right, it's just that the size is wrong.

    This is getting along, though.

    @alex_kim If this is meant to be a weapon for first person view, why not go for best quality and get this baked from a high poly model?
    he does not have a good grasp of what is considered low poly, and he is now learning what and how to bevel, what hard edges are etc. I try going step by step with him to tell him correctly how to make a proper asset
  • alex_kim
    Offline / Send Message
    alex_kim triangle
    @Larry 
    Brian "Panda" Choi


    Hope you people like it.

    I delete the extra edges or segments as long as it does not destroy the structure.

    I let some of edges because there is a hole the area that camera did not show last time. It was my bad. Sorry.
    Basically, what I've understood, in the lo-poly, I shall not add more than 1 segment on the between edges that are beveled.
  • Larry
    Offline / Send Message
    Larry keyframe
    @alex_kim
    Ok let's say you made the low poly (you can make it more low poly but anyways)

    Now you make UV for low poly, you smooth the mid poly (before you removed all the edges) and you bake it. 
  • alex_kim
    Offline / Send Message
    alex_kim triangle
    @Larry 
    Brian "Panda" Choi

    I just did unwrap the uv-map



    I will bake the normal map using substance painter.

    Now, let me create hi-poly version mesh.
  • Larry
    Offline / Send Message
    Larry keyframe
    Oh boy, these Uv's need alot of improving :P 

    but for now, take all these uv's, make them about 1/4 BIGGER and try to fit them all insive uv space manually
  • alex_kim
    Offline / Send Message
    alex_kim triangle
    @Larry 
    Brian "Panda" Choi

    Oh, I forgot the most important question.

    Do you know where is the "unfold smooth" button in the Maya 2018? In maya 2015, there's very powerful function what we called "unfold smooth" which we can stretch out uv very clearly with single button click and drag. But, I cannot find it in 2018 


    news
    you know what? Never mind, I found it.
    I will re-unwrap this uv again. Damn Maya 2018

  • Brian "Panda" Choi
    If you want a pretty easy to use UV editor, download and install thus plugin
    https://www.highend3d.com/maya/script/nightshade-uv-editor-for-maya

    I like it a lot.  Has layout and other frequently ussed editing tools in easy access.  Also makes dealing with UV set editing much easier.
  • alex_kim
    Offline / Send Message
    alex_kim triangle
    @Larry 
    Brian "Panda" Choi

    About the "perforated line" issue, there's a way to solve in the Substance Painter.

    I found "unfold smooth" function in the Maya. 


  • Brian "Panda" Choi
    UVs for the low poly looking solid.  Now git on that high poly, homes
  • alex_kim
    Offline / Send Message
    alex_kim triangle
    @Larry 
    Brian "Panda" Choi

    Hello, people. I am working on the creating hi-poly and baking normal map.

    I actually removed some edges since there are too many of them, so I cannot create hi-poly mesh.

    But, I have an issue here for help ;_;


    This is the lo-poly hand grip of pistol that is little bit smaller than hi-poly mesh:



    And, this is hi-poly:



    And, this is the substance painter that is baked:


    As you see, it's like somebody squeeze some parts (red circle). The edges are clear that has no black ooze and "stitch effect" finally; however, I still have no idea why some parts are looking damaged.

    Although If I apply some dark-heavy material, some damaged parts are looking gone. But, I am not sure that is right way to solve the problem.

    By the way, this is the data when I generate maps using substance painter:


    Always thanks.





  • Brian "Panda" Choi
    Play with the Frontal aor Rear Distance sliders.

    Do you have Toolbag 3?  That also has, I would almost argue, a superior texture map baker

    Your high poly still has faceting on it.  Are you Smooth Mesh Preview convertin anything?  That may be a contributing issue as well.
  • alex_kim
    Offline / Send Message
    alex_kim triangle
    @Larry 
    Brian "Panda" Choi

    I fixed it.



    I have another question.

    Do I need to bake the part that has not different between lo-poly mesh and hi-poly mesh at all?
  • Larry
    Offline / Send Message
    Larry keyframe
    You dont need to bake everything but if you do, it willi have alot better lighting.in general. When light hits one polygon, it gets a shade of grey. If that polygon is divided into more polygons, lets say 50, you get 50 shades of grey in the same area :p 

    Ok now lets say you have your normal map from the whole weapon. You need to COMBINE the nornal map with the normal map from the material. Every material you apply has its own normal map so you also need to combine the map you bake.
  • Brian "Panda" Choi
    Still have some normal issues to sort out.  You're almost there.


134
Sign In or Register to comment.