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Getting disheartened

plero
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plero vertex
Edit:

It looks like I still have a long way to go. Thanks for all the advice on what I should do next.

I've ditched the showreel and moved to ArtStation.

Model 1: https://www.artstation.com/artwork/YnK4b
Model 2: https://www.artstation.com/artwork/G08VW

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  • pmiller001
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    pmiller001 greentooth
    Hey @plero
    Yeah i'd follow your gut on that one. I'd stop applying, make some better models, get much better at your craft then apply again. I think youll be way happier that way and less disheartened. 
  • NikhilR
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    NikhilR polycounter
    Hello!
    I'd say there's a fair bit of improvement possible on your modeling from proportioning to optimizing and texturing.
    I could offer a few solutions but first I wanted to ask if you have an animation showreel since you mentioned that your masters was in computer animation.

  • Brian "Panda" Choi
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    Brian "Panda" Choi high dynamic range
    Regarding the lack of interviews, I believe it's because it's mostly an issue of the quality of work you have right now with what is in your reel.

    It's just not where I could see it as production art in another video game, animation, etc. that I would consider of quality.

    I want to emphasize that rarely does any employer care about your grades/marks in school.  This includes honor rolls, magna cum laudes, etc.

    It's been, anbd still is, about portfolio.

    It's good to see that you recognize that you have a lot more to accomplish with your modeling and texturing.  I would encourage you to focus on making better models.

    Your characters in the reel you posted have admittedly boring designs for a jedi knight and sci fi centurion solider.  These seem like your own designs, so I'd encourage you to choose existing, stronger concepts to work from instead of your own for now (unless you really spend time making sure your concepts are strong to begin with.)

    You should be using hair cards instead of just these volume masses for hair.

    You should be using a skin shader for the skin.

    I'd encourage you to look into Marvelous Designer.

    Make a portfolio website people can easily and quickly access.

  • sacboi
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    sacboi high dynamic range

    plero wrote:

    ...I'm not sure what to do next.

    I'd urge you too browse the PC Portfolio Wiki, there's a ton of relevant info plus explore the other categories as well. 

  • JordanN
  • plero
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    plero vertex
    @NikhilR No, I don't have any animation yet. I focused completely on modelling as I want to go that route rather than animation (they usually seem to be separate jobs). But I guess I should learn to rig them well and then apply some pre-made animations to improve them?

    Brian "Panda" Choi I understand. Although it's shame because the marks should indicate that someone is willing to work hard. The models are made for clients who wear Star Wars outfits (they are supposed to look like the clients and will have their mo-cap data applied) so... they are 100% supposed to look like a Jedi and armoured Sith. But yeah, no one will know that information just from the showreel. I will look for more detailed concepts to work from next. Thanks for all the advice.

    Also for the skin shader, should I try doing that in UE4? Or learn Arnold? And I'll take a look at MD.

    @sacboi Thanks! This definitely helps me with that I should make next.

    @JordanN I was in that thread before I made this one. Is it better to make an ArtStation portfolio rather than a showreel? I had a pdf portfolio before, but was advised to make a showreel instead.

    Thank you for the feedback and advice!
  • JordanN
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    JordanN interpolator
    plero said:

    @JordanN I was in that thread before I made this one. Is it better to make an ArtStation portfolio rather than a showreel? I had a pdf portfolio before, but was advised to make a showreel instead.

    It is definitely recommended to create an Artstation page and upload your characters in a real time viewer like Marmoset or Sketchfab.

    Showreels are better when applying to the VFX Industry and there are additional guidelines to follow when using that.
  • Biomag
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    Biomag sublime tool
    Grades and hard work don't always go hand in hand - and what does a recruiter need a piece of paper for to see how hard you work when he can look at your models? I worked in a law profession previously, so no portfolios to look at, and yet  even there no one I know was ever asked about their grades at law school. Grades are very subjective and tell extremely little.

    Regarding portfolios here another source of advice - https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/character-art-game-production-making-most-your-portfolio-baj-singh/

    The most crucial thing to understand when applying to studios - if your art isn't at least on the same level as their product you most probably are not going to get the job. Why? Because there are more than enough artist who are, no need to settle for 'potential'.
  • NikhilR
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    NikhilR polycounter
    Hello again!
    I just thought I'd ask if you have an animation portfolio owing to your graduation.

    Your work does show potential. It would be difficult for you to gauge your work unless you compare with others/reference but in time your eye will get sufficiently trained to see inconsistencies.

    There was a time when companies used to hire artists and train them for specific roles and in this case your grades/academic achievements mattered more.
    But with the crazy saturation in the industry and outsourcing and a lot of artists staying put because of the job scarcity there are more mid-senior roles open at any given time than junior positions.
    Not to say there are no junior positions available, but it really depends on where you're based.

    However I'd still say your grades do matter, because when they need to justify hiring you among artists with comparable work they would increase your odds to being hired over them.

    In your case, as you are looking into becoming a character artist, that role is considerably challenging to find work in, though with a good portfolio it is possible.

    Being able to make a variety of characters quickly and consistently is a challenging skill and takes a good amount of time, dedication, passion and talent.

    I recommend looking into these courses
    https://www.gameartinstitute.com/store/xeJFAdxY
    https://www.gameartinstitute.com/store/xeJFAdxY

    You don't have to do them, but look through their curriculum/programs taught and you should easily be able to find free alternatives to the course material. Everything is out there on the web. Many of the instructors also have free material available.
    As far as what you need portfolio wise, that polycount link on portfolio contents is more a general idea of what you need as an all round character artist.
    You really just need a few well made characters with punch (presentation should make an impact).

    If you are focused on a particular studio with a particular style, then modify your work accordingly.

    Lastly, I'd also say that don't let the job you get determine you level or professionalism. Being an artist is a life long quest. It is likely that you will move about quite a bit during the journey. Keep up the personal work, that will make you a far stronger artist because of self critique than anything you do professionally.

    I'm also in the process of revamping my character portfolio so have learned a lot in the past months.
    Let me know if you need any specific help with modeling workflows (pm if you like)



  • AGoodFella
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    AGoodFella polycounter lvl 5
    I'm also job hunting and it's brutal. It's just the silence that is bugging me. I know HR departments are busy but I hate the limbo of not knowing if you're being considered for a role or if they've moved on. But I suppose it's to be expected.

    It's tough out there, I'm not seeing any junior/entry level roles, they practically don't exist. just keep grinding at it and hope that something pops up.

    Good luck, we're all fighting the same fight here.
  • Brian "Panda" Choi
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    Brian "Panda" Choi high dynamic range
    @NikhilR
    When was the last time you were asked to provide a grade point average or something similar?  I'm confused as to how the grades matter at all outside of graduating.

    @plero In another context, yes, grades would express how hard you're willing to work, but I would venture so far as to say that most 3D related programs aren't that hard to graduate from.  As long as you're completing assignments, which is expected and standard, you're going to get passing marks.
  • Mark Dygert
    Always make new content and refresh your portfolio. Get rid of anything that doesn't look like it belongs in a game about to hit the streets. 

    Making a portfolio out of projects you did in school is a bad idea because those are some of the first models you ever created. It's like a concept artist trying to apply for a job with the stuff they scribbled in kindergarten. It might have been better than what other kids where drawing at the time but it's not going to land anyone a job. Add 15 years and thousands of hours of practice and you have someone who is market ready. 

    With every model you do, you learn and improve, which is why you keep creating and keep pushing. You should be your own toughest critic and be able to see what is wrong with your past work and fix it going forward.

    Things I see wrong with your reel:
    1. Too many polys that aren't being used for detail.
    2. Basic anatomy is weak, especially in the face, torso and arms. The hands look like they've been run over by steam rollers.
    3. Textures are very weak. Barely any wear and tear, most details look modeled in, very few Normal maps? Are you familiar with Substance? Any kind of baking or shader work going on? 
    4. Are the models presented in an engine?
    5. It looks like there is some sculpting going on, but its really rough, blobby and mushy. If I had to guess it looks like you sculpted at too high of a sub-division too soon and didn't get the basic shaped blocked in at the earlier levels.
    6. Everyone looks the same, I don't see much variation. Turning the skin slightly darker, doesn't magically turn a person into a different race.
    7. Lack of hair/cards, this can be a huge deal to future employers. They need to know you can tackle things like hair and fur in practical ways.
    8. There is no such thing as On The Job Training in this industry. You either can hit the quality bar or you don't get called. They don't hire on what kind of artist you might morph into in the future or what kind of artist you hope to be.
    These are all things that should stick out to you. You do seem to be aware of some of it, maybe you see it all and hope others don't notice, they do.

    Yeah... it's fuckin brutal and even if you get in, there is a high chance that the fate of the studio or the project you're on, might get shut down. So this feeling of "oh fuck, my portfolio is shit" never leaves you. At best you can beat it back for a while by cranking out some awesome art but you should always be creating new stuff, never stop.

  • NikhilR
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    NikhilR polycounter
    @Mark Dygert - Great advice. I know a few companies that provide some on the job training, but they are smaller operations and employees compromise on benefits/pay. They actually can't afford to hire the better artists, so they settle for someone cheaper and decent who could potentially get better.
    Still all on the artist to get better at being an artist.

    @Brian "Panda" Choi - Grades can matter depending on the job market and demographics.
    I got my first co-op placement based on my GPA/Deans list + my work was good enough which got me the GPA) Didn't lead to anything permanent though.
     
                I've seen it happen a lot in Ontario, but this is mainly because of the sheer amount of students graduating out of the 8 Game Dev schools that service a paltry number of game dev/animation studio's located in the city center.

        In this case, having good grades and being on the deans list helps since it gets you noticed early on by the teachers and though your portfolio might not be very good, it still looks good on the school to put you out there on co-op projects which can then lead to something permanent.
     

       Granted the pay is still utter crap, lowest among all north american cities for what you do, which can utterly destroy your morale given how much it costs to live in the city/province, but HR atleast seems to care about the academic record if only to distinguish between the heavy competition for open positions. Gets your foot in the door so to speak even if it doesn't lead anywhere.

       Not many students in Ontario are willing to move out of the province, so in their case in addition to a half decent portfolio for a dead end job for low pay, their grades can help them make the cut and the very least get them some work experience and production title on their resume.

      Not all the work in game dev requires serious incredible talent, so many are willing to do the grunt work and hopefully improve their portfolios on the side for better work with better pay out of province or better yet start their own productions.
     
    Most game dev's I know here are working in stereo compositing where their art portfolio does not matter at all. But having good grades allowed them a 3 month probationary training period and money to spend on weed and beer.
    Sad really but they seem happy...

  • plero
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    plero vertex
    @NikhilR There are a few junior positions around here, but there are also so many graduates. In my uni the undergrads get placement years, but as a postgrad I don't get that opportunity. So, there is a very low chance I'd get one. I was hoping some nearby places would let me do some unpaid work experience with them though.

    Thank you for the advice. There are a few things in the workflow I have questions about, so I will be messaging you soon!

    @AGoodFella Good luck also. :) I keep a list and usually just write them off as rejections if they don't reply after two weeks. The ones that do reply usually do it within a week.

    @Mark Dygert Thanks. Is this a general reply? Some of it definitely applies to me, but some of it doesn't seem to - the big one being the faces.

    I will update this thread with an Artstation portfolio soon.
  • Brian "Panda" Choi
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    Brian "Panda" Choi high dynamic range
    Dygert's face critiques still apply.
  • plero
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    plero vertex


    So, this is considered "just changing the skin colour"? While these were made to look like the actual people I made them for this time, and needed to be a matching style, I'll aim for greater variation in my next ones. Thanks for your input Panda. I still need to improve a lot more.
  • NikhilR
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    NikhilR polycounter
    I understand that Dygert's advice does come across as a bit too blunt and direct.
    I'm sure he meant well and while the journey can be challenging, you have a community of fellow artists looking out for you.
    Look forward to your artstation and progress! Good luck!
  • Brian "Panda" Choi
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    Brian "Panda" Choi high dynamic range
    The racial phenotypes between both characters are somewhat distinct, just not very much.  Though, this can be resolved with just further practice and stufy fortunately.

    Don't rest on your school project for portfolio peices.  Make your own stuff that you will take care of and make awesome.

    You can do it!
  • Biomag
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    Biomag sublime tool
    What Dygert is saying that you can see someones origin just by looking at the face anatomy - look at this example, you probably can guess the skintone and race of every single head although they are just black & white pictures



    By the way those are works from Adam Skutt, Adam Scott, Emre Ekmekci, Kim Tae-Hyun, Zbynek Kysela, Chen Yi and Danilo Athayde.
  • plero
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    plero vertex
    @NikhilR @Brian "Panda" Choi Thank you! I will practise more. :)

    @Biomag Those are beautifully made, and yeah I can really see the difference between them immediately. Thanks for the image!


  • PixelMasher
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    PixelMasher veteran polycounter
    Couple quick points to re-enforce what others are saying:

    grades dont really show you are a hard worker, they show you know how to operate within the expectations of the class. Industry level work expectations vs student work expectations rarely align. Having a super amazing portfolio shows you are a hard worker and can deliver high quality results, and its the results that matter to the studio. Having a aaa quality portfolio shows you have put in the tine and hard work and it should speak for itself. 

    Another point i usually try to hammer into students/juniors is that your competition isnt your fellow students, it is people already working in the industry. Recruiters will always put experienced artists at the top of the pile, so leveraging a super sick portfolio is pretty much the only way to get in these days. You could also find a way to hack culture and get some exposure by say re-creating a pop culture character and having it get picked up by kotaku or something, that will get eyes on your work. 

    Basically these days you need to be able to hold your work up next to screens of a current aaa game and there shouldnt be much of a difference.

    i would focus on mastering the fundamentals of anatomy and nailing how human faces look. 

    Those course posted above seem like a hell of a deal, 300 bucks to learn and interact with an industry pro for several weeks with focused feedback?! That is easily worth 2-3k to shortcut your learning curve. 

    Just keep conistently producing new work, learning from your mistakes as you go :) best of luck!

    edit: also, being willing to move will instantly increase your chances of getting a job, montreal is a huge hub of developers and its only a couple hours from ontario. 
  • Alex_J
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    Alex_J grand marshal polycounter
    Good thread.

    Don't be afraid to reach out to other people when you are in a slump. That's part of being human. Nobody can make it alone.


    Although it can be painful, seek out tough critiques like you have received here. Don't place any head above your own, but really consider other peoples words and review your work. It's the best way to improve.

    A lot has changed in 10,000 years since all of us humans were hunting and surviving in the wild, but it seems to me that the basic principles of life go unchanged. However you will make your living, there are no long term guarantees to survival. You'll always need to adapt, to improve, to be ever-observant, and to rely on others to bolster you up and vice versa.

    The best peace of mind you can get is to just forget about thinking things like, "When will I be good enough?" Just enjoy the process of developing mastery, enjoy the craft, and trust yourself to meet your needs as they arise. You'll do fine!


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