Hey guys! My name is Bartek Nowakowski, and I am a Senior Artist here at Relic. I've been on the Company of Heroes franchise for over 7 years now, so I hope to be more than capable at answering any of your art and pipeline related questions
We love what we see so far - keep going!
Hi Bartek,
Can you or someone else at Relic please check the model/normals for the AEF M15 AA Halftrack? The way it is shading is very wrong, particularly around the hood and the rear panels. I have tried baking a new normal map but the problem persists, so it must be in the underlying model. Perhaps it's coplanar surfaces, but most likely it's the base normals. It's visible with any skin. I am attaching images that show the problem on the default skin, but it's best to see it in action by spinning the vehicle around and watching the spec and shadows in those areas.
Thanks in advance, and as long as someone from Relic is listening, can someone make the list of maps (when selecting one for a custom match) sortable?
There is a similair problem on the front right hand side turret of the US Sherman Easy 8 or 76 mm I cant remember which. Its obvious to spot and is similair to the half tracks error.
F_X you are right I almost forget about that M-15 aa , that cost me many hours figured out how can I make it looking less akward in my skins , at the end I give up , and use my skins along that , this is nothing you can do... Perhaps in relic they might reconsider fixing these along with new addition in models, i mean who wont like a sherman easy 8 with sundbags or wood for side cover or extra matterials with cammo net in british tanks etc etc.
hey folks - there is no limit on winners per category. The jury at Relic decides which skins qualify to make it into the game. So there may be multiple winners - especially in categories where there are multiple top quality entries.
Thank you Orca for feedback, in my point of view I'm just win the lottary since that polycount competition give me the tools , thanks to @vallias for the meshes, to learn many new factions in 3d-2d and make my work much easier. Of course the milestone for a final aproach in skins is testing in game , but still any learned combination 2d-3d is a big benefit, to give you the all picture, from what i saw with the meshes and the use of 3d is that before I 'm making skins like "working with spears" now i'm "using gun pounder"...... looking forwad for atomic energy . For all the above I must give you a big thank you, armor is the start , we are also looking forward for infantry skins editable. Thank you in advance.
Thats really great news as there looks to be a wide range very good skins being developed and it would be nice to see a good selection make it in game.
hey folks - there is no limit on winners per category. The jury at Relic decides which skins qualify to make it into the game. So there may be multiple winners - especially in categories where there are multiple top quality entries.
Bartek , in some models the uvmap mesh with the skin , i have 3 examples, 1st in hetzer the flame gun bore lent skin in the left side of the skin , 2nd in L/60 gun of panzer IV the gun barel lent part of the rear skin of the uper skirts and 3rd in pather , the gun bore lent skin from the rear escape hatch. In first look someone might say that these are minor issues but , for us who make historical skins meshing with decals and insignias. Is any posibility to fix these UVmap/meshes? Thank you in advance.
Unfortunately, there were certain decisions made in UV mapping to find a balance between authenticity and optimization. We are not able to alter any UV's at this time. Try to make your skin as historically accurate as you can within the limitations.
I dont know if anybody found this - if you choose brits to reskin , meshes are available from start. They are in the "dependencies" folders of each vehicle. And , actually , part of sbs files. So if you are using substance designer , you will able to see model right away. But i have couple questions , tho . Where is the Bren carrier skin ? There is no such folder and no mentions of shared textures\assets . M3 Halftrack is shared between Soviers , UKF and USF . Do we need to reskin this model too or we can skip it and just do only faction unique models ?
EDIT: Ok , so when i opened brits valentine i got an error - file not found [valentine_path]/dependencies/bren_carrier.sbs .
We are working to get the Bren Carrier resources to you ASAP! Sorry about that.
Hey guys! My name is Bartek Nowakowski, and I am a Senior Artist here at Relic. I've been on the Company of Heroes franchise for over 7 years now, so I hope to be more than capable at answering any of your art and pipeline related questions
We love what we see so far - keep going!
Hi Bartek,
Can you or someone else at Relic please check the model/normals for the AEF M15 AA Halftrack? The way it is shading is very wrong, particularly around the hood and the rear panels. I have tried baking a new normal map but the problem persists, so it must be in the underlying model. Perhaps it's coplanar surfaces, but most likely it's the base normals. It's visible with any skin. I am attaching images that show the problem on the default skin, but it's best to see it in action by spinning the vehicle around and watching the spec and shadows in those areas.
Thanks in advance, and as long as someone from Relic is listening, can someone make the list of maps (when selecting one for a custom match) sortable?
This would require a patch released that would fix the affected vehicles and all their relevant skins. Unfortunately, this is not something that is planned for this competition. Please try to consider the underlying mesh normals when baking your maps, or use the original normal map from the base model.
Bartek_RE Thank you for your responce, I just mentioned that as feedback, of course in all these cases I use that limitations to make the skins as good looking as possible. I understand that a new uvmap will alter everything and under such sircomstances is better to stay as it is.
@Bartek_RE I have a lot of problem with the tools. Actualy the archive viewer stops to work at all. I think after I installed the java v.8 update 66. If I launch it notthing appen and I can see 3 process of archive viewer in the task manager that I cannot kill and it I need to restart the computer. The Mod builder just work when it feel to work . Today was a Luky day and it build my skin pack yesterday was the hellday... Any help will be appreciated,
This would require a patch released that would fix the affected vehicles and all their relevant skins. Unfortunately, this is not something that is planned for this competition. Please try to consider the underlying mesh normals when baking your maps, or use the original normal map from the base model.
Yes, a patch to fix the 3d model in the game is precisely what I hope can be done. It is a single vehicle (the AEF M15 AA Halftrack) which needs to be corrected. And I do not expect that fix for this competition but hopefully something that can be rolled into a future patch release for the game.
Reverting to the normal map from the base model does not fix this. I found this while not using any normal map at all, which means the game was already using the original normal map. Just to confirm I also tested by baking in the original map, after visually inspecting it to make sure it wasn't the source of the problem. And the images I attached were using the default skin (no skin equipped in the loadout) to prove the same problem is visible there too. So the normal map is not the issue.
Basically, the 3d model has (most likely) normals in the mesh which are wrong, set to angles that are too far from the original surface normals, and probably the result of a bad smoothing operation. It's affecting every skin out there right now, both the ones from Relic and the ones from users, making them all shade incorrectly on this one vehicle. Fixing the 3d model will of course affect every skin in that they will suddenly look better, without requiring any updates at all to the skins themselves. To be clear, the fix would be redoing the normals on the 3d mesh and nothing more. The actual geometry should remain completely unchanged. I consider this to be a technical error no different than a software bug which should be fixed.
I expect that opening up the model and fixing the normals will probably take just a few minutes. But I also understand that depending on your pipeline and procedures, it can take days, weeks, or longer for that fix - once done - to make it to the released game. I am still hopeful that might happen :-)
install previous version of java and have the tools in the way i saw to you in preview, even java 7 they work with 7 , after all why change something that working , i never update java.
install previous version of java and have the tools in the way i saw to you in preview, even java 7 they work with 7 , after all why change something that working , i never update java.
I installed the updated java because of an error in the modbuilder that now its fixed but the archive viewer now doesnot work .
So there is about one week left in the competition (last day is Jan. 22). How do you guys feel things are going? Is the deadline too tight or do you feel you should be able to make it?
So there is about one week left in the competition (last day is Jan. 22). How do you guys feel things are going? Is the deadline too tight or do you feel you should be able to make it?
I think the deadline is fine. It was always going to be quite tight but its time enough
So there is about one week left in the competition (last day is Jan. 22). How do you guys feel things are going? Is the deadline too tight or do you feel you should be able to make it?
To update existing skinpacks in every release of new commanders with new armor, our private deadline was far tighter .
So there is about one week left in the competition (last day is Jan. 22). How do you guys feel things are going? Is the deadline too tight or do you feel you should be able to make it?
My entry is in good shape, assuming no gremlins rear their ugly heads in the next week. But I've also published COH2 skins before, so I haven't been fighting the learning curve during this competition.
Some of the entries are ambitious and the fact they're being done by people who are learning the tools as they go is even more impressive. I'm really looking forward to seeing everyone's finished products.
So there is about one week left in the competition (last day is Jan. 22). How do you guys feel things are going? Is the deadline too tight or do you feel you should be able to make it?
Hey Kyle. I honestly think the deadline is a bit tight tbh. Asking people who are most likely amateurs, to get a whole skin pack done in less than a month, is a bit much, when most people have commitments and such, especially if they are starting their skin from scratch.
Maybe add a couple of weeks to the deadline, so that people can get a quality product out?
So there is about one week left in the competition (last day is Jan. 22). How do you guys feel things are going? Is the deadline too tight or do you feel you should be able to make it?
Choccy_Starfish british skins before tools data was from scratch, now theyare not , as far as the rest , perhaps for some these maybe not like previous but if someone pay a close and detailed view they are milestones. If you mean scratch that you are looking at historical skins I might agree with you since they need a lot of research, and matching etc etc, but the rest are perfect.
22 Phew, just getting started. The deadline seems very tight if you want us to make skins for like 15 vehicles on average to be a bundle (I suppose thats the idea?). I just found out that this competition exists like 3 days ago. Usually the contests are 1 month or longer but I could make it I think.
Edit: hmm im not sure whats going on but it seems to endlessy compile in the mod builder, let it run for over 50 minutes once even. Any ideas ?
I was looking at the Mod Builder section of the Essence Wiki and it said this in a grey box:
"Java and the Flex SDK are only required if you intend to create your own icons."
Then in the Polycount Skin Competition section of the wiki I see this:
"Then you'll assemble the rest of the skin mods data. You'll need to make a few icons and write some text to describe your skin."
I just wanted some clarity as to when in speaking about icons in the second quote, if they are the same "icons" that require Java and Flex SDK? I thought we were only making Skins and I don't really understand what is mentioned in the "icons" page and whether or not we are making any as part of the skin pack or not.
I was looking at the Mod Builder section of the Essence Wiki and it said this in a grey box:
"Java and the Flex SDK are only required if you intend to create your own icons."
Then in the Polycount Skin Competition section of the wiki I see this:
"Then you'll assemble the rest of the skin mods data. You'll need to make a few icons and write some text to describe your skin."
I just wanted some clarity as to when in speaking about icons in the second quote, if they are the same "icons" that require Java and Flex SDK? I thought we were only making Skins and I don't really understand what is mentioned in the "icons" page and whether or not we are making any as part of the skin pack or not.
For a truly complete package, a skin pack is more than just the baked textures. Here's a short list of everything else:
- icon(s) - in the game, players browse their inventory to select which skins to use and each skin appears as an icon. Here is a screenshot of an inventory page showing skin icons along with icons for other stuff like commanders and faceplates: I believe the icons are 64x64 png, but make sure it also looks good when half size because it appears that way too in the game. If you do not create an icon, the mod builder adds a white question mark against a black background icon as default. If you want, you can have just one icon for the entire skin pack by replacing the question mark icon.png and then you don't need Java and Flex. Most skin packs have up to 6 icons, though. One for each vehicle class (heavy, medium, light) adding a little vehicle outline to the top left corner, and a winter variant that adds a little snowflake to the bottom left corner. For some reason, the mod builder tool requires Java and Flex to accomplish this, even though you are the one providing each of the six icons with the vehicle outlines and snowflakes added already (by the way, I never found a template for those - I just copied the style of the ones from Relic seen in the game). If you make the multiple icons, you have to edit one xml file per vehicle weight/season and change where it looks for the default name "<modnid>_icon" to the specific names you are using ("<modid>_myiconname"). There is probably a way to change this via the attribute editor but I have only done it by editing the xml files directly. The xml files are under the "instances\skin pack" subdir.
- a few sample screenshots - for the steam workshop. If you're short on time, a lot of the images already done for the WIP threads here would be more than adequate. Again, there are no specific guidelines. They can be beauty shots, in-game action shots, reference images, or all of the above. This and the preview image are an important part of the overall presentation and will influence players who may be voting for your entry and haven't been following any of the threads here.
- a good description - just a short blurb.
I think that's basically it, so just the one icon, but with up to six variations.
"<modid>_summer_heavy etc etc and "<modid>_winter_heavy as well as the preview pictures that discribe in atrib.xml as "<modid>_winter_heavy _preview i.e , so the preview must be png the icons png as you describe these above, but I assumed that xml needs atrib editor so direct may cause problems.
So there is about one week left in the competition (last day is Jan. 22). How do you guys feel things are going? Is the deadline too tight or do you feel you should be able to make it?
I think at my current pace it'll be quite tight to finish and package everything up nicely. Trying to fit it in after work hasn't been too successful unfortunately. But I can probably get it done with a few late nights
I like to ask the following , my curent accound have not the required space so I have made another accound to release the curated items , must I add the financial information to both of my accounds? and how I can make acceptance in public the curated item. Thank in advance I have found it the file must be under 200MB so must be one summer and one winter skinpack, individual
So there is about one week left in the competition (last day is Jan. 22). How do you guys feel things are going? Is the deadline too tight or do you feel you should be able to make it?
I feel like the deadline is very tight too. It's doable but if we had an extension that would be great too
Thank you for clarifying all that. I was aware of the preview image, sample screenshots, and description, was mostly confused about the icons.
So overall, we pretty much have to have Java and Flex SDK to create those icons to essentially be considered a quality mod? Since without all 6 icon variations, the players won't know out of those six icons which one is each type of tank and winter/summer variants. To confirm as well, no one is aware of templates for the tank types or the winter icons correct? They all need to be remade for each icon variation?
This is progress so far. I am using Maya for all my texturing and for some reason the UVs on the wheels of the Stug III are not straight, making the wheels look stretched....I can fix this but I am not sure relic can use it if i alter the UV they have provided me... can anyone help answer this question. Thanks, jmac
http://imgur.com/gallery/zUaWO6n This is progress so far. I am using Maya for all my texturing and for
some reason the UVs on the wheels of the Stug III are not straight,
making the wheels look stretched....I can fix this but I am not sure
relic can use it if i alter the UV they have provided me... can anyone
help answer this question.
The 3d models we are working with were not officially provided by Relic. They were extracted from whatever format the game uses, and it's very likely that there were precision or translation errors so the UV's we have are not quite perfect. I too notice some warping, stretching, etc in some areas of the models when maps are applied inside of Maya or Houdini. But bake the maps with the mod tools and see them applied in the game and they are fine. If you change the UV's in Maya, you won't be able to get those back into the game because we have no way of replacing the 3d model data they are using. And if you try to counter the distortions in your paintwork to make it look perfect in Maya, in the game it will be slightly off. If you *really* wanted to get a better match, I suppose you could view
the "HELPERS" layer of the psd, and the UV editor, and see if you
can spot and fix the differences. I don't know if they will be visually obvious, though.
Basically the 3d models are a great help for broad strokes painting, but to QC fine detail alignment (particularly along seams) you really need to check your work in the game. It still beats the 2D-only approach.
There are definite issues in the UVS in the models due to the extraction process. Possibly some precision errors, but the stretching seems to go more than just a decimal error would be.
You Can fix that up to match the wireframe UV layout as provided in the PSD's by relic. Definitely stay with their UV layout or your skins will not work in the game.
So there is about one week left in the competition (last day is Jan. 22). How do you guys feel things are going? Is the deadline too tight or do you feel you should be able to make it?
Honestly, its way too tight. Even using the entire time would require one or more skins done every 2 days. This is doable for simple edits or a camo swap, but for total reskins like the non historic categories demand, this is somewhere between really tight and unrealistic without working on it fully 6-8 hrs a day. I started on a finer things entry for the soviet army (I've yet to post), but given the time constraints and how much time I can realistically spend on a hobby competition, I'm not going to get the quality level I'd like to hit.
There are definite issues in the UVS in the models due to the extraction process. Possibly some precision errors, but the stretching seems to go more than just a decimal error would be.
You Can fix that up to match the wireframe UV layout as provided in the PSD's by relic. Definitely stay with their UV layout or your skins will not work in the game.
So there is about one week left in the competition (last day is Jan. 22). How do you guys feel things are going? Is the deadline too tight or do you feel you should be able to make it?
Honestly, its way too tight. Even using the entire time would require one or more skins done every 2 days. This is doable for simple edits or a camo swap, but for total reskins like the non historic categories demand, this is somewhere between really tight and unrealistic without working on it fully 6-8 hrs a day. I started on a finer things entry for the soviet army (I've yet to post), but given the time constraints and how much time I can realistically spend on a hobby competition, I'm not going to get the quality level I'd like to hit.
right but in the list from the tool creator you select , the panzer and panther from west germany which I did. But when i copy the skins to the directory in game only the panzer shows up not the panther. What should the main folder/files be called ? Panther_ausf_g_xxx (dif,spc,gls,nrm)
Replies
It's when I have a normal map texture in the mix. Anyone come across this and also fix this?
Figured it out. You have to have the other files that get compiled into the normal map output file or it gives you the bird.
Can you or someone else at Relic please check the model/normals for the AEF M15 AA Halftrack? The way it is shading is very wrong, particularly around the hood and the rear panels. I have tried baking a new normal map but the problem persists, so it must be in the underlying model. Perhaps it's coplanar surfaces, but most likely it's the base normals. It's visible with any skin. I am attaching images that show the problem on the default skin, but it's best to see it in action by spinning the vehicle around and watching the spec and shadows in those areas.
Thanks in advance, and as long as someone from Relic is listening, can someone make the list of maps (when selecting one for a custom match) sortable?
Perhaps in relic they might reconsider fixing these along with new addition in models, i mean who wont like a sherman easy 8 with sundbags or wood for side cover or extra matterials with cammo net in british tanks etc etc.
So there may be multiple winners - especially in categories where there are multiple top quality entries.
The Mod builder just work when it feel to work
Any help will be appreciated,
Reverting to the normal map from the base model does not fix this. I found this while not using any normal map at all, which means the game was already using the original normal map. Just to confirm I also tested by baking in the original map, after visually inspecting it to make sure it wasn't the source of the problem. And the images I attached were using the default skin (no skin equipped in the loadout) to prove the same problem is visible there too. So the normal map is not the issue.
Basically, the 3d model has (most likely) normals in the mesh which are wrong, set to angles that are too far from the original surface normals, and probably the result of a bad smoothing operation. It's affecting every skin out there right now, both the ones from Relic and the ones from users, making them all shade incorrectly on this one vehicle. Fixing the 3d model will of course affect every skin in that they will suddenly look better, without requiring any updates at all to the skins themselves. To be clear, the fix would be redoing the normals on the 3d mesh and nothing more. The actual geometry should remain completely unchanged. I consider this to be a technical error no different than a software bug which should be fixed.
I expect that opening up the model and fixing the normals will probably take just a few minutes. But I also understand that depending on your pipeline and procedures, it can take days, weeks, or longer for that fix - once done - to make it to the released game. I am still hopeful that might happen :-)
Cheers.
-- FX
I installed the updated java because of an error in the modbuilder that now its fixed but the archive viewer now doesnot work .
So there is about one week left in the competition (last day is Jan. 22). How do you guys feel things are going? Is the deadline too tight or do you feel you should be able to make it?
I think the deadline is fine. It was always going to be quite tight but its time enough
Some of the entries are ambitious and the fact they're being done by people who are learning the tools as they go is even more impressive. I'm really looking forward to seeing everyone's finished products.
Hey Kyle. I honestly think the deadline is a bit tight tbh. Asking people who are most likely amateurs, to get a whole skin pack done in less than a month, is a bit much, when most people have commitments and such, especially if they are starting their skin from scratch.
Maybe add a couple of weeks to the deadline, so that people can get a quality product out?
Perfectly fine by me :-)
Usually the contests are 1 month or longer but I could make it I think.
Edit: hmm im not sure whats going on but it seems to endlessy compile in the mod builder, let it run for over 50 minutes once even.
Any ideas ?
"Java and the Flex SDK are only required if you intend to create your own icons."
Then in the Polycount Skin Competition section of the wiki I see this:
"Then you'll assemble the rest of the skin mods data. You'll need to make a few icons and write some text to describe your skin."
I just wanted some clarity as to when in speaking about icons in the second quote, if they are the same "icons" that require Java and Flex SDK? I thought we were only making Skins and I don't really understand what is mentioned in the "icons" page and whether or not we are making any as part of the skin pack or not.
For a truly complete package, a skin pack is more than just the baked textures. Here's a short list of everything else:
- icon(s) - in the game, players browse their inventory to select which skins to use and each skin appears as an icon. Here is a screenshot of an inventory page showing skin icons along with icons for other stuff like commanders and faceplates:
I believe the icons are 64x64 png, but make sure it also looks good when half size because it appears that way too in the game. If you do not create an icon, the mod builder adds a white question mark against a black background icon as default. If you want, you can have just one icon for the entire skin pack by replacing the question mark icon.png and then you don't need Java and Flex. Most skin packs have up to 6 icons, though. One for each vehicle class (heavy, medium, light) adding a little vehicle outline to the top left corner, and a winter variant that adds a little snowflake to the bottom left corner. For some reason, the mod builder tool requires Java and Flex to accomplish this, even though you are the one providing each of the six icons with the vehicle outlines and snowflakes added already (by the way, I never found a template for those - I just copied the style of the ones from Relic seen in the game). If you make the multiple icons, you have to edit one xml file per vehicle weight/season and change where it looks for the default name "<modnid>_icon" to the specific names you are using ("<modid>_myiconname"). There is probably a way to change this via the attribute editor but I have only done it by editing the xml files directly. The xml files are under the "instances\skin pack" subdir.
- a preview image - 280x280 tga. This is the image seen when browsing the workshop. Here are some examples:
http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/browse/?appid=231430&searchtext=&childpublishedfileid=0&browsesort=toprated§ion=readytouseitems&requiredtags[]=skin
There is a design element here in how you want to present your skin pack in a single image so that people will want to click on it and check it out further. There is no specific guideline, so it's up to your personal style.
- a few sample screenshots - for the steam workshop. If you're short on time, a lot of the images already done for the WIP threads here would be more than adequate. Again, there are no specific guidelines. They can be beauty shots, in-game action shots, reference images, or all of the above. This and the preview image are an important part of the overall presentation and will influence players who may be voting for your entry and haven't been following any of the threads here.
- a good description - just a short blurb.
I think that's basically it, so just the one icon, but with up to six variations.
I have found it the file must be under 200MB so must be one summer and one winter skinpack, individual
Thank you for clarifying all that. I was aware of the preview image, sample screenshots, and description, was mostly confused about the icons.
So overall, we pretty much have to have Java and Flex SDK to create those icons to essentially be considered a quality mod? Since without all 6 icon variations, the players won't know out of those six icons which one is each type of tank and winter/summer variants. To confirm as well, no one is aware of templates for the tank types or the winter icons correct? They all need to be remade for each icon variation?
This is progress so far. I am using Maya for all my texturing and for some reason the UVs on the wheels of the Stug III are not straight, making the wheels look stretched....I can fix this but I am not sure relic can use it if i alter the UV they have provided me... can anyone help answer this question.
Thanks,
jmac
Basically the 3d models are a great help for broad strokes painting, but to QC fine detail alignment (particularly along seams) you really need to check your work in the game. It still beats the 2D-only approach.
You Can fix that up to match the wireframe UV layout as provided in the PSD's by relic. Definitely stay with their UV layout or your skins will not work in the game.
Good luck!
Honestly, its way too tight. Even using the entire time would require one or more skins done every 2 days. This is doable for simple edits or a camo swap, but for total reskins like the non historic categories demand, this is somewhere between really tight and unrealistic without working on it fully 6-8 hrs a day. I started on a finer things entry for the soviet army (I've yet to post), but given the time constraints and how much time I can realistically spend on a hobby competition, I'm not going to get the quality level I'd like to hit.