If you are going to be self-taught and feel that you are lacking fundamentals then the free website http://drawabox.com/ seems like a decent place to start learning fundamentals.
That goes back to my point.. Fheng Zhu had been painting for 8 years before he touched a wacom tablet, same with sid meid. You can get to that skill level without FZD, it just will take you a longer time.
Do you have any actual data to support this assertion or is your entire argument constructed on flimsy anecdotes and pop science?
Personally I'm using hours of practise. Through completing 1 year at FZD you will get about 5000 hours of practise or about 13 hours a day average. I don't know anyone who can work 13 hours a day, for an entire year, by themselves (again not getting paid, just from your own passion). The 5000 hours is taken from students claims that they work 20 hours a day (obviously not possible, so we gave them 9 hours for eating, socializing, grooming and sleeping).
If you casually practised your drawing skills (12 hours a week) it would take you 8 years to reach the same level, if your treated your learning like a job (40 hours a week) it would still take you 2.5 years. Nobody has done a study on the FZD skill so finding a peer reviewed scientific backup is impossible.
There are no work arounds or problems that will be solved by some magical teacher. And the idea that after 5000 hours you will be a great hirable concept artist is also bullshit. You are competing against people that actually produce stuff everyday, sketch from life when they have free time, you already should have a thread/blog where you post stuff everyday. FDZ is not a magic formula that will turn you into a grade A artist. If you don't have the drive to do that all the time on your own there's honestly little hope that you will make a living out of it.
Bletzkarn said: Nobody has done a study on the FZD skill so finding a peer reviewed scientific backup is impossible.
I guess it's a good thing that the premise of your argument could basically be summarized as "more hours = more better", which is not specific to FZD, because we do actually have some evidence on that.
Even assuming the number of hours worked was the most important factor to a persons development (which is probably wrong) there's stlil a serious problem with the way you're thinking about it: You're treating every hour worked as though it is the same. The way you think about hourly practice is as though people remain at peak productivity for every minute that they are awake until they fall asleep, that fatigue never sets in and that rest has no influence on a persons growth or development. This is really the only way someone can reach the warped conclusion that the results of practicing 10,000 hours for a year and a half at 20 hours a day is equivalent to practicing 10,000 hours at a rate of 6-8 hours a day for 4 years.
And where does the evidence stand on that? General consensus for most work is that output falls off a cliff after 40-50 hours worked a week. The IGDA actually has a page specifically dedicated to it. But hey, maybe learning art is different?
Also the numbers in this thread are all over the map. On page 1 the OP says FZD students work 18 hours a day, in your first post where you boldly proclaimed that attending FZD was the *only* way to become a concept artist you said they were working 20 hours a day, now you're saying it's 13. I can only assume no one has any idea how much FZD students are working beyond "it seems like a lot" which could mean anything.
I do not believe there is a mathematical, scientifical formular to reach a state where you get to be a great artist. Like, I will work for 5000 hours, and ok, after 5000 hours I am now officially a concept artist, sorry not happening. There is a learning curve, for anything. Feng Zhu actually didn't start pushing himself to sketch and draw everyday until he got to Art Center, before that he was just doing normal teenage stuff. I guess I was being clouded by my own fears and insecurities when I made this thread, and for that I apologize, I thought FZD would do the work for me, I'd just go there and having someone breathing on my neck 24/7 would make me a great artist, but later I realize, if I go with this mindset there, I'll just give up between all the hardcore homework. I'm taking things to my own pace now and watching a lot of Gnomon DVDs and copying the homework assignments I see on FZD facebook. I'm over giving up and I don't think I need someone bossing me around to draw to actually draw anymore. I'll post my results and curve in a sketchbook around here later, when I start having something more graphical to show other than sketches. Thanks for all the links and help!
I suspect this thread is just going to live on for eternity, continuously getting bumped because it is on the first page of the google results for "Feng zhu school worth it"
Have you heard about a school in Montreal called SYN STUDIO?
I was thinking about creating a thread about it but let me try first here and see if anyone's got some info on it.
So they are an Entertainment Design school that offers both a concept art diploma program and individual classes. They actually compare their diploma program (which is 1.5 year long) to FZD.
I didnt check their teachers yet but they are in Montreal, seem to have close relations with ArtStation (which is based in Montreal too) and some with Naughty Dog top concept guys, like Maciej and Shaddy. Student work does not look up to par with FZD but I'd say good enough for a junior position or freelancing.
Finally, the degree program costs around 30k CAD without living expenses. Seems reasonable.
I think it all comes down to this: Do you have that kind of money? Yes? Go. You don't? Don't ruin your family economy to go, at least I wouldn't, but don't that get in the way, in Syd Mead's words: There is no excuse, in this age of time and information, to make a poor artwork, there are books, downloads, a lot of information out there that one can access very easily. IMO, it's just a matter of knowing where to look and where not to.
I never heard of that school AeonBreak, but I'll look into it, just because I'm always curious about them and following them around social networks and such. I'd recommend Art Center, if you can afford it or can get the scholarship! Feng graduated from there. I'd recommend FZD too, but they don't offer any sort of scholarship for now.
Have you heard about a school in Montreal called SYN STUDIO?
I think they're relatively new to have a known reputation as a school.
I do like their scheduled July workshop this year with concept art directors. To date, that's a pretty good opportunity to pitch your skills to actual studio leads (instead of getting filtered first by an overworked HR person) or start a networking relationship (if you're interested in a studio job).
Six months to polish up your folios if you're planning on going.
I have been tempted in past taking a sabbatical and going to this school, it would be an amazing experience to do before you die.
On a side note but in similar vein for anyone wanting a life experience. In 2005 I went with my wife to various martial arts schools around the world and also helped out at wild life environment sanctuaries for a year (aquatic and land animals), this gives you board and food in return for work. We took a simple back pack, sketch book and camera as we are both artists, although she is a fashion designer so she can kick my butt at quick sketches.
We trained at the top of the Wudang Shan mountains under Master Yuan, he is well revered and is on the Chinese postage stamp. The cost was full board $200 per week which included accommodation (very basic room from 12th century), food, and Kung Fu training for 6 hours per day (6am, 12noon and 5pm). We also went to Thailand to learn some Thai Boxing near Chiang Mai. I did try Shaolin, Judo and Tae Kwon Do as I was a already a black tag in this sport. I have to say of all the places in Japan, China, South East Asia there was something magical about Wudang Shans history and location and ended up staying there the longest, its where the film Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon was filmed, if that helps paint a picture in your mind.
It would be great to have something like this in the west, medieval weaponry and combat in some Swiss/German alpine mountain castle retreat. The Kung Fu temples seemed to be very well supported by society and local business with an understanding that there workforce can go and come back at a later date or never at all if they become a disciple and chose to dedicate there lives to the art.
Anyhoo, that's enough procrastination for one night, just thought I would share a little life experience that might inspire.
Bletzkarn said: Nobody has done a study on the FZD skill so finding a peer reviewed scientific backup is impossible.
I guess it's a good thing that the premise of your argument could basically be summarized as "more hours = more better", which is not specific to FZD, because we do actually have some evidence on that.
Even assuming the number of hours worked was the most important factor to a persons development (which is probably wrong) there's stlil a serious problem with the way you're thinking about it: You're treating every hour worked as though it is the same. The way you think about hourly practice is as though people remain at peak productivity for every minute that they are awake until they fall asleep, that fatigue never sets in and that rest has no influence on a persons growth or development. This is really the only way someone can reach the warped conclusion that the results of practicing 10,000 hours for a year and a half at 20 hours a day is equivalent to practicing 10,000 hours at a rate of 6-8 hours a day for 4 years.
And where does the evidence stand on that? General consensus for most work is that output falls off a cliff after 40-50 hours worked a week. The IGDA actually has a page specifically dedicated to it. But hey, maybe learning art is different?
Also the numbers in this thread are all over the map. On page 1 the OP says FZD students work 18 hours a day, in your first post where you boldly proclaimed that attending FZD was the *only* way to become a concept artist you said they were working 20 hours a day, now you're saying it's 13. I can only assume no one has any idea how much FZD students are working beyond "it seems like a lot" which could mean anything.
The students said they worked 20 hours a day, which I assumed was more likely 15 hours a day, I made it 13 in the end to be conservative, otherwise my original claim would be more like "it takes 12 years to get to the same level".
I disagree that the students practice hours are less valuable because they're fatigued. I think due to the structured and competitive environment that they are actually getting a lot more out of it per hour of practise. They themselves it's only really possible to push themsevles so hard, when they have to look at everyone else's drawings every single day and feel inferior to them. Also the sharing of styles, skills and mindset lend itself to making ones work better than they did it alone.
Finally I believe doing 12 hours of practise in a single sitting is going to be more valuable than doing 12 hours spread out over a week. FZD school is not the only way to become a concept artist, there are many ways, but you have to remember you are competeting with these guys for work. If they can pump out better work at a quicker pace then you're going to struggle.
Just adding this (you have to read my last post to understand) Master Yuan is at around 50 seconds and there are some locations shots, feels like a life time away from me now! https://youtu.be/sUFWxvB4Phs?t=48
The students said they worked 20 hours a day, which I assumed was more likely 15 hours a day, I made it 13 in the end to be conservative, otherwise my original claim would be more like "it takes 12 years to get to the same level".
I disagree that the students practice hours are less valuable because they're fatigued. I think due to the structured and competitive environment that they are actually getting a lot more out of it per hour of practise. They themselves it's only really possible to push themsevles so hard, when they have to look at everyone else's drawings every single day and feel inferior to them. Also the sharing of styles, skills and mindset lend itself to making ones work better than they did it alone.
Finally I believe doing 12 hours of practise in a single sitting is going to be more valuable than doing 12 hours spread out over a week. FZD school is not the only way to become a concept artist, there are many ways, but you have to remember you are competeting with these guys for work. If they can pump out better work at a quicker pace then you're going to struggle.
Or to put it another way: You just settled on an arbitrary number because it sounded reasonable.
You can believe whatever is you'd like to of course, doesn't mean it's right or has any more basis in reality than concluding FZD students are working 13 hours a day just because it feels right.
Going with your example, what about 12 hours spread out over 2 days? Doing 11 the first day and 1 the next? What about 8 the first day and 4 the next? I've no doubt there is an optimal amount of hours to practice each day that people should do in order to progress at the fastest speed possible. What I am trying to get you to think about here is why is it that you think 13 (or 15, or 20) is the optimal amount? And it seems as though there's nothing supporting your conclusion other than feels and anecdotes.
Ultimately though my problem with your posts and the posts of a lot of people in this thread is not about their conclusions or how they got to them, we all have opinions that are really based on nothing but personal experience and bias. What I take issue with is the zeal and certainty with which you were preaching them as if they were undeniable, irrefutable facts. The certainty and confidence in your original post isn't even remotely justified by the evidence supporting it.
I don't actually care at all what people choose to do with their time. I just want them to make an informed choice and recognizing dogma for what it is, is key to that in my opinion.
I don't think practicing for 20 hours a day is productive at all, or even 15 or 13 hours. Learning something new requires new connections to grow in the brain; these are actual physical changes! This doesn't just require practice, it also requires sufficient rest. Your body cannot grow tissues properly if you don't sleep.
Personally, I think the best way to practice is to work smarter, not just harder; quality practice over sheer quantity. I've been reading up a lot about deliberate practice lately, and it makes a lot of sense to me. Here's a good article on deliberate practice:
For me, it has completely changed the way I approach practice, and for the first time in years I'm starting to see massive improvement in my art. I highly suggest you look into the subject yourself. I think "learning how to learn" is one of the most beneficial life skills you could, and should cultivate.
I keep this page bookmarked for whenever these sort of discussions come up, it's quite an interesting read. A few quotes from the article:
"In 1937, the 40-hour week was enshrined nationwide as part of the New Deal. By that point, there were a solid five decades of industrial research that proved, beyond a doubt, that if you wanted to keep your workers bright, healthy, productive, safe and efficient over a sustained stretch of time, you kept them to no more than 40 hours a week and eight hours a day."
Of course, this just refers to assembly line workers. however:
"Everybody knew that eight hours a day was pretty much the limit for a guy swinging a hammer or a shovel; but those grey-flannel guys are just sitting at desks. We’re paying them more; shouldn’t we be able to ask more of them?
The short answer is: no. In fact, research shows that knowledge workers actually have fewer good hours in a day than manual laborers do — on average, about six hours, as opposed to eight. "
The best situation is to get an full time art job where you're surrounded by stronger artists who can assist you develop your skills and you're applying what you've learned at the same time.
So 40 hours (not counting overtime) in a studio art department + 20 hours practice (4 hours committed after work per weekday) + 20 hours of non-digital/ sketchbook art time/life drawing on the weekends (10 hours saturday, 10 hours sunday)
Grand Total = 80 hours a week.
52 weeks X 80 = 4160 hours a year
So if you can do this for 2 years, you can equal your 10,000 hours towards being a "master" without the debts, moneys in the bank, and most likely a department promotion.
So apparently this guy was a tax worker, went to FZD and turned into the concept artist superman in 1 year... Check the journal entry, if you're as curious as I was, he talks about FZD. http://alexjjessup.deviantart.com/ - I have to say, it's tempting to work 20 or so hours a day to get to be the concept art king in only 1 year... but at the cost of my brains, memory and health? no thank you.
to be fair, a tax worker can still have artistic skills.
I used to work with that guy. He hadn't done any art in his life before going to that school. He graduated from the advanced program, went right into AAA. His brains, memory, and health are intact. Working all day long for 1-2 years isn't for everyone but it produces quality results if you do it.
For someone that gives off an air that they're informed I have to wonder what kind of hole you live in to be so blind to the quality and skill divergence of concept artists in the industry. By all means continue to shill FZD as the be all end all though, I hope you're getting commission.
It's not the skill difference more so the time it takes to obtain the skills. I guess I'm just speaking from my perspective, I'd find it pretty difficult to study 12 hours by myself in a day, I'm lucky if I manage to get 6 hours in.
I guess my point is more directed at people who are trying to break into the industry more than veterans. Competition is fierce. Layoffs are common - which means you're competing with seasoned artists for the same positions. Going to the bar, binging on House of Cards, or idly hanging out with friends instead of working is directly hurting your chances of making it.
If you want it, you have to work. There's no way around it.
If that means giving up your social life for 2 years while you level up your skills, then so be it. Do it. If it's a dream, get after it. If it's not, go do something else. That's all.
WarrenM said:If you want it, you have to work. There's no way around it.
I agree 100 per cent!
In the context of these discussions involving for-profit schools, where portfolios which would indicate skill level (or lack thereof) usually aren't required as part of your entry application and there's no talk in the school's commercial ads of how hard you must work to make a market-ready portfolio...I think people who don't have prior art making exposure are blindsided by this even if they might consider themselves as hard working students or quick learner of software.
So a tragic consequence is they or their family sign a risky loan package. They get into classes where they suddenly realize they're not in the same skill level as students who have prior artmaking exposure or training. And that can become discouraging; you have to do catch-up the same time you're supposed to be just learning new theory or methods.
Will the teachers and class environment help you level up or will they, as most often the case in these places, leave you on your own to shrivel or rise up.
I thought there was an entrance barrier to Feng's school ... like, you can't be a complete and total noob as you won't get as much out of it as you should.
Art Institute has a number of schools across the US. They graduate a lot of people. You can argue these grads also worked hard for their Bachelor degrees. But how come they don't dominate the concept art industry the same way as one real art school like Art Center of Pasadena has.
Working hard at AI won't get you the same outcome as working hard at Art Center.
I woulnd't consider them having entrance barriers. You could just show photoshop filtered photos in your "portfolio", prove you speak and understand English in the phone interview, have the funds...you're in.
Compare that to portfolio requirements to Art Center or Sheridan or other reputable institution. And realize that you'll be judged based on what you turn in.
Whether you are presenting your previous work or creating original work for the portfolio, please include the following elements:
A short, simple paragraph that details a storyline for an animated narrative.
At least two characters associated with that storyline, each presented in a series of emotive sketches and/or renderings that depict the character in critical and dramatic points in your storyline. Use these drawings to convey the movements, expressions, attitudes, and idiosyncrasies that express the character’s personality within the context of the storyline.
At least five keyframes from your storyline, depicting your characters in critical, dramatic, narrative moments throughout the story’s arc. These drawings should convey a sense for the aesthetic considerations surrounding the characters, including environments and objects.
A one-minute video of you performing one of the characters you have presented. Use your body, gesture, facial expressions, and movement to bring the character to life through your performance. Consider using both wide shots and close-ups, where necessary, to capture your performance. No consideration for costume, setting, or dialogue is necessary.
At least 6 figure drawings from a live model that include both gestural and more developed pieces.
Sketchbooks are also encouraged and we recommend a limit of 10 to 15 sketchbook pages submitted as one PDF.
I didn't expect this thread to get the google index ratio it got.
So hi!
After 4 years, I also think I can come back and chime in for the loads of people who stumble upon this.
Thanks, Iris, for sharing your view, although I respectfully disagree with it, wholeheartedly.
While I did not go to FZD because I didn't have the means to, nor did I want to put the economic pressure on my family, I did study a lot at home. Most people back then were too focused on telling me that this wasn't a smart endeavor, but I guess at the time, at a subconscious level, I was more stubborn about finding out if it could be done, rather than if it should.
Looking back, it was tough, very tough but I managed to land a few jobs, full-time and part-time, freelance, and so on, and up until now, my career development hasn't been a problem. Many people have achieved things and places, went to figurative mountains and beyond without a degree, I encourage the people who originally came to visit and look for soul-searching in this thread, to look beyond concept art and the games realm; scientists, medics, psychologists, physicians, teachers, architects... many re-known people in their industry made a mark as experts without a degree, concept art should and isn't different.
This isn't to say that I'm better than XYZ, but to say that it can be done, without a degree.
I can't close the thread without addressing the miasmic stigma that is hovering around the industry, where teachers, mentors, recruiters, and many other people at the gates tell us that the most efficient use of our time and lives is to employ it under their organization, (don't bother going home during the next 6months, sleep on the studio couch, you don't need to see your spouse) to make something that goes beyond their identity, while this builds on a premise that is meant to be detached and free from ego, it also is two-faced, as trust me, nothing is more worth your time than family, friends, relationships, nature, and you.
If you were a doctor on the frontlines fighting a pandemic (like covid), I'd say, yes, it's respectful and admirable that you're putting your life aside to make a difference, however, at the end of the day, we're just making games, and you're employing your life to serve as a money-making cog within a company. Is this really the best use of the only life you have, to become a machine without a life other than drawing from the time you wake up until you go to sleep?
This isn't to say, don't do a good job at what you do or hustle (I do hustle a lot, more than it's healthy sometimes, but it's because *I want it*, respect yourself, grow out of your own work and craft, as self-worth isn't coming from your job only, trust me, I made this mistake at my mindset before.
Caveat; I had the chance to meet Mr. Feng Zhu in Paris a couple of years ago and he was an admirable, approachable and a really friendly person, nothing against him, the work he does and his school, I'm sure you'll be well served if you go there though!
Art is a support system for life, not the other way around. - Stephen King
Replies
If you are going to be self-taught and feel that you are lacking fundamentals then the free website http://drawabox.com/ seems like a decent place to start learning fundamentals.
If you casually practised your drawing skills (12 hours a week) it would take you 8 years to reach the same level, if your treated your learning like a job (40 hours a week) it would still take you 2.5 years. Nobody has done a study on the FZD skill so finding a peer reviewed scientific backup is impossible.
FDZ is not a magic formula that will turn you into a grade A artist.
If you don't have the drive to do that all the time on your own there's honestly little hope that you will make a living out of it.
Even assuming the number of hours worked was the most important factor to a persons development (which is probably wrong) there's stlil a serious problem with the way you're thinking about it: You're treating every hour worked as though it is the same. The way you think about hourly practice is as though people remain at peak productivity for every minute that they are awake until they fall asleep, that fatigue never sets in and that rest has no influence on a persons growth or development. This is really the only way someone can reach the warped conclusion that the results of practicing 10,000 hours for a year and a half at 20 hours a day is equivalent to practicing 10,000 hours at a rate of 6-8 hours a day for 4 years.
And where does the evidence stand on that? General consensus for most work is that output falls off a cliff after 40-50 hours worked a week. The IGDA actually has a page specifically dedicated to it. But hey, maybe learning art is different?
Also the numbers in this thread are all over the map. On page 1 the OP says FZD students work 18 hours a day, in your first post where you boldly proclaimed that attending FZD was the *only* way to become a concept artist you said they were working 20 hours a day, now you're saying it's 13. I can only assume no one has any idea how much FZD students are working beyond "it seems like a lot" which could mean anything.
I guess I was being clouded by my own fears and insecurities when I made this thread, and for that I apologize, I thought FZD would do the work for me, I'd just go there and having someone breathing on my neck 24/7 would make me a great artist, but later I realize, if I go with this mindset there, I'll just give up between all the hardcore homework. I'm taking things to my own pace now and watching a lot of Gnomon DVDs and copying the homework assignments I see on FZD facebook.
I'm over giving up and I don't think I need someone bossing me around to draw to actually draw anymore. I'll post my results and curve in a sketchbook around here later, when I start having something more graphical to show other than sketches.
Thanks for all the links and help!
Have you heard about a school in Montreal called SYN STUDIO?
I was thinking about creating a thread about it but let me try first here and see if anyone's got some info on it.
So they are an Entertainment Design school that offers both a concept art diploma program and individual classes. They actually compare their diploma program (which is 1.5 year long) to FZD.
I didnt check their teachers yet but they are in Montreal, seem to have close relations with ArtStation (which is based in Montreal too) and some with Naughty Dog top concept guys, like Maciej and Shaddy.
Student work does not look up to par with FZD but I'd say good enough for a junior position or freelancing.
Finally, the degree program costs around 30k CAD without living expenses. Seems reasonable.
Do you have that kind of money? Yes? Go.
You don't? Don't ruin your family economy to go, at least I wouldn't, but don't that get in the way, in Syd Mead's words: There is no excuse, in this age of time and information, to make a poor artwork, there are books, downloads, a lot of information out there that one can access very easily.
IMO, it's just a matter of knowing where to look and where not to.
I never heard of that school AeonBreak, but I'll look into it, just because I'm always curious about them and following them around social networks and such.
I'd recommend Art Center, if you can afford it or can get the scholarship! Feng graduated from there. I'd recommend FZD too, but they don't offer any sort of scholarship for now.
I do like their scheduled July workshop this year with concept art directors. To date, that's a pretty good opportunity to pitch your skills to actual studio leads (instead of getting filtered first by an overworked HR person) or start a networking relationship (if you're interested in a studio job).
Six months to polish up your folios if you're planning on going.
http://synstudio.ca/syn-studios-gathering-of-masters/
On a side note but in similar vein for anyone wanting a life experience. In 2005 I went with my wife to various martial arts schools around the world and also helped out at wild life environment sanctuaries for a year (aquatic and land animals), this gives you board and food in return for work. We took a simple back pack, sketch book and camera as we are both artists, although she is a fashion designer so she can kick my butt at quick sketches.
We trained at the top of the Wudang Shan mountains under Master Yuan, he is well revered and is on the Chinese postage stamp. The cost was full board $200 per week which included accommodation (very basic room from 12th century), food, and Kung Fu training for 6 hours per day (6am, 12noon and 5pm). We also went to Thailand to learn some Thai Boxing near Chiang Mai. I did try Shaolin, Judo and Tae Kwon Do as I was a already a black tag in this sport. I have to say of all the places in Japan, China, South East Asia there was something magical about Wudang Shans history and location and ended up staying there the longest, its where the film Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon was filmed, if that helps paint a picture in your mind.
It would be great to have something like this in the west, medieval weaponry and combat in some Swiss/German alpine mountain castle retreat. The Kung Fu temples seemed to be very well supported by society and local business with an understanding that there workforce can go and come back at a later date or never at all if they become a disciple and chose to dedicate there lives to the art.
Anyhoo, that's enough procrastination for one night, just thought I would share a little life experience that might inspire.
Some pictures.
I disagree that the students practice hours are less valuable because they're fatigued. I think due to the structured and competitive environment that they are actually getting a lot more out of it per hour of practise. They themselves it's only really possible to push themsevles so hard, when they have to look at everyone else's drawings every single day and feel inferior to them. Also the sharing of styles, skills and mindset lend itself to making ones work better than they did it alone.
Finally I believe doing 12 hours of practise in a single sitting is going to be more valuable than doing 12 hours spread out over a week. FZD school is not the only way to become a concept artist, there are many ways, but you have to remember you are competeting with these guys for work. If they can pump out better work at a quicker pace then you're going to struggle.
Going with your example, what about 12 hours spread out over 2 days? Doing 11 the first day and 1 the next? What about 8 the first day and 4 the next? I've no doubt there is an optimal amount of hours to practice each day that people should do in order to progress at the fastest speed possible. What I am trying to get you to think about here is why is it that you think 13 (or 15, or 20) is the optimal amount? And it seems as though there's nothing supporting your conclusion other than feels and anecdotes.
Ultimately though my problem with your posts and the posts of a lot of people in this thread is not about their conclusions or how they got to them, we all have opinions that are really based on nothing but personal experience and bias. What I take issue with is the zeal and certainty with which you were preaching them as if they were undeniable, irrefutable facts. The certainty and confidence in your original post isn't even remotely justified by the evidence supporting it.
I don't actually care at all what people choose to do with their time. I just want them to make an informed choice and recognizing dogma for what it is, is key to that in my opinion.
Personally, I think the best way to practice is to work smarter, not just harder; quality practice over sheer quantity. I've been reading up a lot about deliberate practice lately, and it makes a lot of sense to me. Here's a good article on deliberate practice:
http://www.creativitypost.com/arts/the_most_valuable_lesson_i_learned_from_playing_the_violin
For me, it has completely changed the way I approach practice, and for the first time in years I'm starting to see massive improvement in my art. I highly suggest you look into the subject yourself. I think "learning how to learn" is one of the most beneficial life skills you could, and should cultivate.
I keep this page bookmarked for whenever these sort of discussions come up, it's quite an interesting read. A few quotes from the article:
Of course, this just refers to assembly line workers. however:
So 40 hours (not counting overtime) in a studio art department + 20 hours practice (4 hours committed after work per weekday) + 20 hours of non-digital/ sketchbook art time/life drawing on the weekends (10 hours saturday, 10 hours sunday)
Grand Total = 80 hours a week.
52 weeks X 80 = 4160 hours a year
So if you can do this for 2 years, you can equal your 10,000 hours towards being a "master" without the debts, moneys in the bank, and most likely a department promotion.
Anything else is excuses and rationalizations.
If you want it, you have to work. There's no way around it.
If that means giving up your social life for 2 years while you level up your skills, then so be it. Do it. If it's a dream, get after it. If it's not, go do something else. That's all.
In the context of these discussions involving for-profit schools, where portfolios which would indicate skill level (or lack thereof) usually aren't required as part of your entry application and there's no talk in the school's commercial ads of how hard you must work to make a market-ready portfolio...I think people who don't have prior art making exposure are blindsided by this even if they might consider themselves as hard working students or quick learner of software.
So a tragic consequence is they or their family sign a risky loan package. They get into classes where they suddenly realize they're not in the same skill level as students who have prior artmaking exposure or training. And that can become discouraging; you have to do catch-up the same time you're supposed to be just learning new theory or methods.
Will the teachers and class environment help you level up or will they, as most often the case in these places, leave you on your own to shrivel or rise up.
Art Institute has a number of schools across the US. They graduate a lot of people. You can argue these grads also worked hard for their Bachelor degrees. But how come they don't dominate the concept art industry the same way as one real art school like Art Center of Pasadena has.
Working hard at AI won't get you the same outcome as working hard at Art Center.
Compare that to portfolio requirements to Art Center or Sheridan or other reputable institution. And realize that you'll be judged based on what you turn in.
Is the school worth the investment? Yes. No.
For me it was damn freaking AWESOME. BEST SCHOOL EVER.
But another guy in my class hated the school so much, that when you mention it, he still gets angry.
In short, it depends on your personality. If concept art is #1, above family and ego and whatever, then you will learn tons and be successful.
Going there was the best decision of my life!
Edit: I wrote a review of FZD.