I remember the first question asked of me (for a studio that's no longer around) "How do ,l- you feel about 'Crunch'".
I told them I usually voluntarily do 60ish hours a week or so for a couple of weeks leading into a major deadline.
They laughed.
They told me 60 hours a week was their 'normal' work week, and their crunches were between 100-120 Hours a week (mandatory weekends).
I told them I simply was NOT interested in anything like, to which they started to chastise me, telling me I didn't have the Balls to work there, and I wasn't 'Hardcore' enough, and called me a fucking pussy, which is about the time I hung up on them.
So yes, those places do exist. But not all places are like that.
Yeah, that was exactly my point about the interview bit. Since some artists are happy to put in unpaid overtime/work for free, it's no surprise that in some studios the producers would be more than willing to brag about crazy crunches during an interview. Wasn't there a story about a Crytek producers tweeting about the amount of pizzas ordered during the crunch for Rise ?
[edit] here it is :
By the time #Ryse ships for #XboxOne, we will have served the crunching team more than 11,500 dinners throughout development. #RyseFacts
That's probably the dumbest thing a studio could possible post on their Twitter page, and by all means a red flag for anyone interested in working there.
I remember the first question asked of me (for a studio that's no longer around) "How do you feel about 'Crunch'".
I told them I usually voluntarily do 60ish hours a week or so for a couple of weeks leading into a major deadline.
They laughed.
They told me 60 hours a week was their 'normal' work week, and their crunches were between 100-120 Hours a week (mandatory weekends).
I told them I simply was NOT interested in anything like, to which they started to chastise me, telling me I didn't have the Balls to work there, and I wasn't 'Hardcore' enough, and called me a fucking pussy, which is about the time I hung up on them.
So yes, those places do exist. But not all places are like that.
Lol, I did the math on this.
120 hours a week, is 24 hours a day for 5 days a week.
So assuming they're expecting/forcing you to work every day of the week (7 days) you'd have 6 hours of free time every day. These guys must have been complete tards.
I've done a 120 hour week - just the one. Someone dropped the ball and a feature wasn't scheduled. I did a triple week to get a prototype / proof of concept for that feature up and running.
120 hours is absolutely gruelling. You barely get to sleep.
That's probably the dumbest thing a studio could possible post on their Twitter page, and by all means a red flag for anyone interested in working there.
The fact that they called it a 'crunching team' tells you everything - also, 11,500 dinners is a colossal amount of crunch - that's 6 months solid for 100 people.
The fact that they called it a 'crunching team' tells you everything - also, 11,500 dinners is a colossal amount of crunch - that's 6 months solid for 100 people.
And not to insult anyone here who worked on it, but ... does it seem worth it? The game was barely a blip on anyone's radar.
It can be brutal. Hard hours, stressful deadlines, cooperate greed, no job security in a lot of the AAA companies. But... I have never seen or heard of an industry filled with such passion. Most people in this industry love what they do and it shows.
Its really weird to me that i keep seeing people say this about the passion in the industry, that people enjoy the work. Yet im really not sure that these people fully understand that other human beings are taking advantage of your passion, using you and your passion, and abusing you, to make money for themselves.
We have labor laws for a reason, and every new human is born with nothing in their heads, and since empathy is largely learned, enough people are born every day who simply will not have the life experience to empathize with your plight will be available to fill in those positions that other un-empathetic higher ups need to be filled by people willing to crack the whip.
This is why i would guess that only new labor laws will solve this situation. What a bummer.
This is another great benefit to a higher minimum wage in my opinion. It makes it so that if you hate the place you're working at you don't have to settle for something like $7 bucks an hour and make perhaps major life changes just to look for another job. When so much of modern business is simply the process of getting others to do the work for you, then F rich people who do nothing but use others.
Sorry for the rant, but thats the tip of the ice berg of logical info i have against many elements of nu-bridled capitalism.
Its theorized that the reason women's life span, which average 7 years longer than men, has been lowering is that they have been entering the work force more often, implying that the work we do itself can be harmful to ourselves. Does our work shorten our lives? Im not really sure about sedentary work, but i'd definitely recommend anyone with a sedentary life style watch this great Ted Talks.
Neil Blevens, one of the cg artists on Walle, recently exclaimed that everyone needed to fight back against industry abuse, but the problem i see with that is that you don't see too many people picking fights on the street they don't think they can can. People will fight, when they feel they can win and win without losing as well.
Its scary to think about the consequences of creating new labor laws in only one country, like the US, since they could simply outsource from other countries i would assume, or perhaps a US labor law would need to contain regulations about outsourcing too. Also, i love Asian art, its often very complex and angular in a way i love, so I wonder if a lot of art one day will come from Asia.
Neil Blevens, one of the cg artists on Walle, recently exclaimed that everyone needed to fight back against industry abuse, but the problem i see with that is that you don't see too many people picking fights on the street they don't think they can win. People will fight, when they feel they can win and win without losing as well.
See, the reason they can't win is because most people are afraid to say no. You can't win if you`re a minority. If everyone decides together that this is enough, and everyone in the studio says "no, we aren't doing overtime anymore, you have to plan better", then you can bet your ass things will change...
Kind of why unions keep popping up in conversation.
I don't think crunch is exploitative IF the studio accomodates your needs (mental, emotional, etc.) as a worker after your core hours.
I mean, I'd go all in for crunch if:
a) studio helps me with transportation: is there a shuttle, would they give taxi/ uber vouchers, reserved hotel rooms?
b) studio helps with the food situation: is there an on-site stocked cafeteria, free pop and snacks? to go with the free dinner that has a rotating daily menu
c) I can play online or watch netflix AFTER my core hourse and if I don't have anything on my task list, because many times you're just asked to be on site for crunch in case there's an art bug that you can fix
d) can I take Friday off if I have off hours security access to the building so I can come in anytime on a weekend.
This is what I can think of so far. You can use it as discussion/negotiating points in an interview.
I just do remote freelance now so when my client company is in crunch the most uncomfortable thing that I experienced was an unexpected wake up call from a panicked lead at 4 in the morning.
I remember the first question asked of me (for a studio that's no longer around) "How do you feel about 'Crunch'".
I told them I usually voluntarily do 60ish hours a week or so for a couple of weeks leading into a major deadline.
They laughed.
They told me 60 hours a week was their 'normal' work week, and their crunches were between 100-120 Hours a week (mandatory weekends).
I told them I simply was NOT interested in anything like, to which they started to chastise me, telling me I didn't have the Balls to work there, and I wasn't 'Hardcore' enough, and called me a fucking pussy, which is about the time I hung up on them.
So yes, those places do exist. But not all places are like that.
I wonder why the studio is no longer around... lol.
Treat your people like shit, you can expect to eat a shit salad in the long run as well, this kind of "professional karma" does exist.
Some of the older companies that are still around, most likely went through a massive culture change, because your burned out employees will eventually leave and word gets across about how bad the studio is, not to mention it reflects in the quality of the projects.
Is the game industry really that bad to work in?
There's no yes or no answer to this, we're all very different to one another, but short answer is, if you work for a studio that respects you then that goes a long way to have a happy and fulfilling professional life.
I don't think crunch is exploitative IF the studio accomodates your needs (mental, emotional, etc.) as a worker after your core hours.
I agree, if it's voluntary paid crunch. If you're being forced to, that stuff can absolutely demolish your personal life, especially if it goes on for a while. And no amount of "We'll make it up to you with stuff" can make up for that.
Is the industry bad to work in? Well, maybe. Definitely at times. Sometimes it's great, if you have fun work to do, with no deadlines dead ahead, and no one hassling you to be faster. But there are also times when you're doing boring soul-draining work under ridiculous deadlines because some people didn't plan correctly.
And also, there are times when communication is absolutely absent, and deadlines get sprung on you seemingly out of nowhere. Or "Surprise! You're working all weekend." with no warning.
A lot of older folks, now higher ups, like to wear their past crunch on their sleeves, like it's a form of paying your dues. I hate that though; it's just perpetuating the broken system into the future.
Love the idea of a union. Workers' rights need to be protected, and this industry has its fair share of maltreatment.
On another note, I think salaried "software developers" in California are supposed to be required by law to be paid overtime. I know it's just wikipedia, but I'd love to hear a lawyer's interpretation:
"Most game-development engineers and artists in the United States are considered salaried employees; as "exempt non-hourly-paid professionals", they are not subject to state laws governing overtime.[17] An exception is California, where software developers are specifically protected by a minimum hourly wage to be considered exempt.[18] In 2008, due to the amendment to California Labor Code Section 515.5 by Bill SB 929,[19] the minimum wage was $36 per hour (or $74,880 per year)."
If a production artist (character, environment, etc) makes that same decision, he's probably looking at going down a completely different career path and retooling his life, so the industry has artists by the balls and they know it.
That's more about the psychology of the average game artist than it is about the industry.
Be aggressive (in a positive way) and try something new.
I wonder why the studio is no longer around... lol.
Treat your people like shit, you can expect to eat a shit salad in the long run as well, this kind of "professional karma" does exist.
Some of the older companies that are still around, most likely went through a massive culture change, because your burned out employees will eventually leave and word gets across about how bad the studio is, not to mention it reflects in the quality of the projects.
Is the game industry really that bad to work in?
There's no yes or no answer to this, we're all very different to one another, but short answer is, if you work for a studio that respects you then that goes a long way to have a happy and fulfilling professional life.
so true.
what most studios fail to grasp , wich is incredible basic is : if you treat the emplyees like shit/pay like shit/demand insane work hours with no return in any kind , how do you expect the employee not to junp ship at the firsy better offer that comes around ? its basic common sense.
the game industry is not bad to work on , you just need a solid portfolio and know how and put your foot down on abusive schedules/work. its like other jobs really !
It's interesting to hear other peoples perspectives on their experiences so far in the industry.
Mine has been pretty good. Granted there have been some things which rubbed me the wrong way, however it really comes down to finding somewhere that suits you as an individual.
Personally, I will never choose a company for a project, nor even the company itself. Never put yourself in a position where you hate going into work because you hate the project or the people.
As far as crunch goes, I've been in crunch periods but the companies have always given time off after, as well as milestone bonuses. I even remember being paid overtime for the Xmas/New year period back at another company which was pretty sweet.
Don't ever be pressured into crunching. Too many people try to do it to impress the higher ups and you'll just end up burning out as a result. Good Producers/Leads will always protect their team from this. From my experience, I try my best to keep a healthy work/life balance these days. It's so easy to get burned out and for some it can be very difficult to recover from.
I remember the first question asked of me (for a studio that's no longer around) "How do you feel about 'Crunch'".
I told them I usually voluntarily do 60ish hours a week or so for a couple of weeks leading into a major deadline.
They laughed.
They told me 60 hours a week was their 'normal' work week, and their crunches were between 100-120 Hours a week (mandatory weekends).
I told them I simply was NOT interested in anything like, to which they started to chastise me, telling me I didn't have the Balls to work there, and I wasn't 'Hardcore' enough, and called me a fucking pussy, which is about the time I hung up on them.
So yes, those places do exist. But not all places are like that.
Replies
[edit] here it is :
https://twitter.com/RyseGame/status/390146055494303744
That's probably the dumbest thing a studio could possible post on their Twitter page, and by all means a red flag for anyone interested in working there.
Lol, I did the math on this.
120 hours a week, is 24 hours a day for 5 days a week.
So assuming they're expecting/forcing you to work every day of the week (7 days) you'd have 6 hours of free time every day. These guys must have been complete tards.
120 hours is absolutely gruelling. You barely get to sleep.
The fact that they called it a 'crunching team' tells you everything - also, 11,500 dinners is a colossal amount of crunch - that's 6 months solid for 100 people.
Its really weird to me that i keep seeing people say this about the passion in the industry, that people enjoy the work. Yet im really not sure that these people fully understand that other human beings are taking advantage of your passion, using you and your passion, and abusing you, to make money for themselves.
We have labor laws for a reason, and every new human is born with nothing in their heads, and since empathy is largely learned, enough people are born every day who simply will not have the life experience to empathize with your plight will be available to fill in those positions that other un-empathetic higher ups need to be filled by people willing to crack the whip.
This is why i would guess that only new labor laws will solve this situation. What a bummer.
This is another great benefit to a higher minimum wage in my opinion. It makes it so that if you hate the place you're working at you don't have to settle for something like $7 bucks an hour and make perhaps major life changes just to look for another job. When so much of modern business is simply the process of getting others to do the work for you, then F rich people who do nothing but use others.
Sorry for the rant, but thats the tip of the ice berg of logical info i have against many elements of nu-bridled capitalism.
Its theorized that the reason women's life span, which average 7 years longer than men, has been lowering is that they have been entering the work force more often, implying that the work we do itself can be harmful to ourselves. Does our work shorten our lives? Im not really sure about sedentary work, but i'd definitely recommend anyone with a sedentary life style watch this great Ted Talks.
[ame="
Neil Blevens, one of the cg artists on Walle, recently exclaimed that everyone needed to fight back against industry abuse, but the problem i see with that is that you don't see too many people picking fights on the street they don't think they can can. People will fight, when they feel they can win and win without losing as well.
Its scary to think about the consequences of creating new labor laws in only one country, like the US, since they could simply outsource from other countries i would assume, or perhaps a US labor law would need to contain regulations about outsourcing too. Also, i love Asian art, its often very complex and angular in a way i love, so I wonder if a lot of art one day will come from Asia.
So come in at noon and be ready to work for a 12 hour stretch with hopefully decent dinner provided.
If no and you also have to drive rush hour next morning you better be paid 6 figures annualy :poly136:
See, the reason they can't win is because most people are afraid to say no. You can't win if you`re a minority. If everyone decides together that this is enough, and everyone in the studio says "no, we aren't doing overtime anymore, you have to plan better", then you can bet your ass things will change...
Kind of why unions keep popping up in conversation.
I don't think crunch is exploitative IF the studio accomodates your needs (mental, emotional, etc.) as a worker after your core hours.
I mean, I'd go all in for crunch if:
a) studio helps me with transportation: is there a shuttle, would they give taxi/ uber vouchers, reserved hotel rooms?
b) studio helps with the food situation: is there an on-site stocked cafeteria, free pop and snacks? to go with the free dinner that has a rotating daily menu
c) I can play online or watch netflix AFTER my core hourse and if I don't have anything on my task list, because many times you're just asked to be on site for crunch in case there's an art bug that you can fix
d) can I take Friday off if I have off hours security access to the building so I can come in anytime on a weekend.
This is what I can think of so far. You can use it as discussion/negotiating points in an interview.
I just do remote freelance now so when my client company is in crunch the most uncomfortable thing that I experienced was an unexpected wake up call from a panicked lead at 4 in the morning.
I wonder why the studio is no longer around... lol.
Treat your people like shit, you can expect to eat a shit salad in the long run as well, this kind of "professional karma" does exist.
Some of the older companies that are still around, most likely went through a massive culture change, because your burned out employees will eventually leave and word gets across about how bad the studio is, not to mention it reflects in the quality of the projects.
Is the game industry really that bad to work in?
There's no yes or no answer to this, we're all very different to one another, but short answer is, if you work for a studio that respects you then that goes a long way to have a happy and fulfilling professional life.
I agree, if it's voluntary paid crunch. If you're being forced to, that stuff can absolutely demolish your personal life, especially if it goes on for a while. And no amount of "We'll make it up to you with stuff" can make up for that.
Is the industry bad to work in? Well, maybe. Definitely at times. Sometimes it's great, if you have fun work to do, with no deadlines dead ahead, and no one hassling you to be faster. But there are also times when you're doing boring soul-draining work under ridiculous deadlines because some people didn't plan correctly.
And also, there are times when communication is absolutely absent, and deadlines get sprung on you seemingly out of nowhere. Or "Surprise! You're working all weekend." with no warning.
A lot of older folks, now higher ups, like to wear their past crunch on their sleeves, like it's a form of paying your dues. I hate that though; it's just perpetuating the broken system into the future.
Love the idea of a union. Workers' rights need to be protected, and this industry has its fair share of maltreatment.
On another note, I think salaried "software developers" in California are supposed to be required by law to be paid overtime. I know it's just wikipedia, but I'd love to hear a lawyer's interpretation:
Source (with links to legislation): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_developer#Crunch_time
That's more about the psychology of the average game artist than it is about the industry.
Be aggressive (in a positive way) and try something new.
so true.
what most studios fail to grasp , wich is incredible basic is : if you treat the emplyees like shit/pay like shit/demand insane work hours with no return in any kind , how do you expect the employee not to junp ship at the firsy better offer that comes around ? its basic common sense.
the game industry is not bad to work on , you just need a solid portfolio and know how and put your foot down on abusive schedules/work. its like other jobs really !
Mine has been pretty good. Granted there have been some things which rubbed me the wrong way, however it really comes down to finding somewhere that suits you as an individual.
Personally, I will never choose a company for a project, nor even the company itself. Never put yourself in a position where you hate going into work because you hate the project or the people.
As far as crunch goes, I've been in crunch periods but the companies have always given time off after, as well as milestone bonuses. I even remember being paid overtime for the Xmas/New year period back at another company which was pretty sweet.
Don't ever be pressured into crunching. Too many people try to do it to impress the higher ups and you'll just end up burning out as a result. Good Producers/Leads will always protect their team from this. From my experience, I try my best to keep a healthy work/life balance these days. It's so easy to get burned out and for some it can be very difficult to recover from.
Team Bondi?
If the reason we are given for doing overtime is inexistent, or due to somebody else's mismanagements I definitely wont do any extra hours.
And if it's a case of studio asking for insane hours off the bat, well I woudln't work there in the first place.
You don't always have the choice though. But even if that is the case, you don't have to accept crunch time.