Enviro Art question: Does level size affect employment??
interpolator
Hello. Polycount.
This thread comes prematurely but I need to get something off my mind.
I've finally updated my portfolio to include some art pieces but I'm obviously still missing some stuff.
However, I was reading this thread and what caught my attention were the critiques referring to how big or how many stuff were being shown.
This somewhat worries me. I have 4 environments. 2 of them are from the outside and are going to big. The other 2 are interiors of a building and a room.
An idea of what I want to make.
A convenience store (complete with all shelves stocked with products).
A bathroom (with much more stuff lying around)
If I work on these, would they hurt my chances of getting a job in the game industry compared to, if they were outside environments?
This thread comes prematurely but I need to get something off my mind.
I've finally updated my portfolio to include some art pieces but I'm obviously still missing some stuff.
However, I was reading this thread and what caught my attention were the critiques referring to how big or how many stuff were being shown.
This somewhat worries me. I have 4 environments. 2 of them are from the outside and are going to big. The other 2 are interiors of a building and a room.
An idea of what I want to make.
A convenience store (complete with all shelves stocked with products).
A bathroom (with much more stuff lying around)
If I work on these, would they hurt my chances of getting a job in the game industry compared to, if they were outside environments?
Replies
What does matter is variety of subjects. Doing outdoor scenes requires some different skills than interiors (foliage creation, sculpting rocks, and so on), and if you don't show those skills, employers will assume you don't have them.
With the convenience store, I want to turn it into a real mess.
Products knocked on the floor, refrigerator doors shattered and broken, opened bottles of soda spilt everywhere. Would this be ok?
My bathroom was suppose to be a 1:1 look of a real one, I'm guessing this is no longer a good idea.
Seriously though maybe a mix? Just don't tackle a large enviro if you don't feel it's gonna be amazing.
Anyways, back to the topic... As the others said, quality is much more important. You don't need to show that you make big environments, the small can be good too , if its quality and memorable. From my experience, you not must need full environments to get an "environment artist" position. Don't mix it up with a level designer. Some buildings, or spectacular, complex props would do it.
A big level = more content. More content = more work. More work = need for motivation/dedication/planning/etc. All of that = pretty daunting. Daunting 'usually' = a lot of really mediocre pieces to fill out the env. That = a meh portfolio piece. Meh portfolio piece = probably no job.
Logic breakdown of smaller diorama or prop sets:
Smaller set = not as impressive based on scale. Not as impressive based on scale = more focus on the individual pieces. You kill the individual pieces = recruiter impressed. Recruiter impressed = probably job.
Do you want "probably job"? or "Probably no job"? lol Especially if you do not have any major work in your portfolio as it is, start small and work your way up. Like everyone will say, they would rather see you NAIL a single prop then have a bunch of shitty ones.
What studios are looking for is going to be different at each place.
Overall, what was said above rings true, shoot for Quality over Quantity. If you are trying to make large environments just for the sake of making them large...you are doing it wrong.
Another thing to keep in mind...you can have large outdoor areas, but still limit scope. You don't have to make a whole giant outdoor level. Focus on a smaller area with less assets....and make a nice low detail vista to fill in the background.
My advice for you is to stay very small. As others have said, you still have quite a bit to learn in terms of making quality assets. Focus your time on improving your skills in smaller spaces....worry about the big stuff later.
This is not true. In the past, I would post a lot, but people started complaining it made me look like I was doing nothing.
In response to that, I posted less and focused more on making art.
This is why I'm upset in the OP, because I don't want people getting the wrong message again. But because this is an emergency, I made this thread to get serious help.
Also, while I can understand the desire to do something as realistic as possible, I personally do not see the appeal of the two pictures you posted. Why not pick something more ... glamorous ? Eye catching ?
Now don't get me wrong, even the most mundane subject matter can be turned into a great piece if there is a strong intention being expressed. But these two pictures look like something straight out of a quick google search ... and this is precisely the thing that can make a piece fall flat, much more so than how big or small the environment is. The things that will make a piece great happen during the planning stages, not after the fact by haphazardly placing lights or messing around with the camera.
I'll simply ask you this : Why do you want to do a bathroom and a convenient store as a portfolio piece ?
I am not asking this in an attempt to dismiss the idea. (again, great stuff can be made out of everything, as demonstrated by Heavy Rain, for instance). I just think that listing the reasons why you picked such subject matters would help you to come up with a plan on how to interpret them and turn then into a striking portfolio piece that people associate with you.
Good luck !
[edit] Also, I think you are misinterpreting what people where suggesting in the thread you linked. I suppose you are probably referring to this :
But the full quote is :
Now that makes sense. If you want to convey the idea that something is a spaceship, then modeling the janitor closet of said spaceship is probably not the best way to go at it. But there is also nothing wrong with creating a badass janitor closet.
In 2013 I was looking to leave Turbine. I had a few art tests and phone interviews with studios. One of them, Edge of Reality in Austin, interviewed me. They specifically asked about the size of my Environments. Most of my work has been small in scope. My largest environment was maybe a football field in size? I remember it specifically working against me in that case.
In general though, smaller and very well done work is good. Quality over Quantity.
That being said, having varied scales in one's portfolio certainly is a good thing. But so is being excellent at a given niche too ... For instance, I could imagine that someone who is badass at building accurate, realistic sport stadiums in UE4 would be a perfect hire for a team working on the next PES or FIFA game. The same goes for fighting games backgrounds, which are much smaller in scale. And so on ...
I want to make a showcase for next gen consoles. A bathroom was a perfect example, because it's in a confined location, it can handle a lot more graphics being thrown at it. The real bathroom is also right next to me, so it gives me a chance to study everything in person.
The convenience store was a recent idea. It came from this thread I posted in. I wanted the convenience store to offset the bathroom, by giving it a story and being the complete opposite of what you expect.
Bathroom = photorealistic, nice looking
Convenience store = havoc, chaos, messy looking
Fair enough - then it's now time to work on all the elements of that story and plan everything in detail !
On a side note, I am not quite sure to understand how a bathroom is a better example than anything else when it comes to recent advanced in graphics. You could very well state something like "A giant spaceship was a perfect example, because it's very large in scale, it can handle a lot more graphics being thrown at it". But at the end of the day this is hardly relevant anyways - what matters isn't really the subject matter, but how you handle it and what you make out of it.
From there, more questions :
- In this dual environment (bathroom/convenient store), how do you plan to handle the transition between the two spaces ?
- What is the story that is being implied here ? That someone left the bathroom and went on to wreck havoc in the store ? (again, not dismissing the idea, just genuinely asking the question.)
[ame]
I thought it was funny seeing how much damage one kid was able to do a dollar store. So now I wanted to take that idea further. Same kid or person who is having a really bad day, decides to invade a store and turn it upside down. The employees who work there do nothing about it and the whole store ends up looking whack.
The Bathroom wasn't suppose to be related, but I could always change this if it makes my portfolio better.
Edit: Aware of how big a convenience store is, I will limit myself to 5 - 10 different props. If I get more time, I could then go beyond that.
After looking at your folio, here's what I would do.
1. Get the basics down (normal maps, HP modeling, texturing, etc).
2. Make 1 really good prop in the style you're shooting for (so I guess realism). Make sure it challenges you (modeling, texturing), but isn't too hard or complex. An example of this could be a digital camera (lots of interesting shapes). Really work on it till it hits the quality of studios you're looking at. If it doesn't hit that quality do another.
3. After finishing, start a SMALL env. Hit the quality bar of the previous prop throughout the entire env.
4. Decide what to do next.
Also, everyone can take a bad looking picture of even the greatest subjects, so merely modeling things accurately is never going to be enough. I guess the bottom line is, every game art project takes a lot of time and effort, so better plan things as best as you possibly can
1. Finish up my Cartoon and PS1 environment. The reason being, it helps me understand modeling better and I'm just putting things together now.
2. Start focusing on individual props. I have two in mind. A Bus and a Wacom Tablet. If the bus is too much, I'll just do a fan.
3. I will make a very small Bathroom with everything I learned in steps 1 and 2.
4. Finally, I will make a convenience store with the story planned out. The number of props will start out small.
If it's an emergency then it's probably freaking way too late already. It's not like you had to type a cv in a night for the next morning or get a haircut because you look messy. You're supposed to produce art, no one does great and beautiful thing in "emergency". No one does beautiful thing nor impress people because they did rush something.
Just find something you love, GTFO the pbr and trying to impress the queen of England, Find a concept art you love, one that make you say "Wow" AND DO IT. Forgot everything else, I've check at most of your topic and you always do the same error, you're so stressed (And i know what stress is, i'm probably the most anxious girl alive on the planet) that you forget the important part and act like a robot, you're not doing a desk job, you're doing an artistic job, where's your artist vibes ? Stop reading, asking the wrong question, half-argumentation, JUST DO ART.
The rest of This is going to be rude but as someone who put all my time and love in my future job, you really make me cringe:
Why would you want to do huge complex environment when there's not even a single props finish on your portfolio ? My bad, there's actually only one finished asset, the rest is a bad concept art, texture shot of a plain wall, a text of your love for PS1 (also doing ps1 graphic won't gave you a job don't lose time, if you want to do a tribute take a game and redo it in current gen) and a title.
If you can' take the right decision, then ask yourself the right question. Do you really want to do this job for the rest of your life or do you just want a job because you're finishing 3years of school you didn't like and you feel like it's too late to do anything else in your life. Because right now when i read your post you sound like people in my class who waited 3 years to realize they don't want to do 3D for the rest of their life but didn't want to deceive their parents for paying the school.
If it's an emergency because you're running low on money, just get a shitty boring job like everyone, you live in Canada it's like the most easiest place on earth to find a student job even when you don't live in a big city.
All I can say is, there's too much miscommunication right now. There has to be more patience. Please.
What's your ultimate goal and how much time do you have for that?
The PS1 environment was a nice idea and I agree you can learn a thing or two about modeling that way, but it's probably not worth sinking some more weeks into it. Now I'm not saying it won't happen, but it's not really something that's sought after today and turnaround times for low spec props/environments are fast and the quality is considerably higher than what you have right now. So I'd maybe think about a diorama or something else on a smaller scale, built from the props you have and polished.
And then I'd really get as fast as possible to do high quality normal mapped props, both high and lowpoly. The bus seems like a good final project to me after you flexed your fingers a bit. This way you could apply as a prop modeler, which is your most likely first role at a games company. If you want to build a whole environment I'd strongly recommend to work from a great concept. That way many things are taken care of already that can take a lot of time to learn.
You say you want to impress people with the most photorealistic scene and touch some stylized results as well, that's a fine goal. But you'll have to work hard do that, just like everyone else on this forum. It just doesn't come to you.
I would also maybe look at tutorials online (3DMotive, Gummroad, the usuals). I've no idea what you learn at school, but again the basics are not there. It might not be the school's fault of course, but maybe it would be a bit easier for you to learn those basics on the side.
Forget about environment for now, focus on modeling. Then on baking. Then on texturing. Then on sculpting/advanced details.
As for small-scale versus large-scale, I feel both are interesting. Sure a small-scale environment lets you push things further, but there's a whole lot of things you can't really show in a small environment. Large scale composition and lighting, the ability to change your workflow to speed things up (using modularity, vertex painting, ...), focusing on what matters and not losing time on what doesn't really matter, the endurance to finish the whole piece even though it's quite a major one, ...
Ideally I feel you should have both. In the end, you'll work on both when you work in the industry. You're supposed to be an environment artist, not a 3D bathroom and corridor artist. People will expect you to work on all kinds of things.
But yeah of course, starting small with high quality is definitely better. And you'll learn what matters and how to speed things up by doing that too.
I didn't post yesterday because I'm not really feeling well. I didn't mean for my portfolio to be taken at face value this early. The critiques are still welcome, but my first concern was my size question.
I wanted to go back modeling, but it's been bothering me I showed something that's unfinished.
I'll say though, Autocon's words are uplifting. If quality and a good story is the most important, then I want to work towards that the most. I'm still having problems though understanding what is always right or wrong when making stuff.
Starting out, items around the house and basic shapes are a great way to learn as most you have as physical objects to study and recreate in a physical space to start mastering the difficult art of nailing proportions in a 3D space without a 3D scan. For portfolio pieces, the more unique the shapes, the better off you are to leave an impression. My personal rule of thumb when I am thinking of project ideas.