about the plans valve might have or not have, it does actualy not matter for valve when we are done with this chest - since they will not drop everything they do just to add our chest at the second we submit it anyways we need our time to work stuff out, and then it needs time in workshop (valve likes it if stuff is in workshop before they add it, ofc its not a fix rule..) and then when the time is right and valve has time they can check our chest and add it. we wont get lost only because we are "faster" in time ^^
i think the rule lets it open that after u have finished a set with ur team u could form a new team with other people and then do another project.
but if u think about it, we are so many polycount artists - the chest should be collection of those different artists. showing each unique facette. and not end up with (i gona use random numbers and names now^^) containing 15sets from different polycount artists and 10sets from "team DNA", only because u may be able to work hell fast. it should be fair. also ofc u are not forced to do only 1 set and then doing nothing for another 3month until the next chest event starts. u can still do ur own *non-chest* stuff besides^^
@theme, i think its about us i like to work with a theme as much as i like to work free.
we can gather up some theme ideas, and then make a vote themeA vs themeB vs ... vs no theme
The fact that you cannot compete with some of the other artists should not be hindering their work.
;(
I think having a limit to the number of submissions is a limitation to the creativity and work process of the event. Also, a deadline that long isn't helping anyone. All the rules you are setting are focusing on helping the amateur's have a shot and diminishing the professionals' work. I think you are not correct here as this feels a lot like communism.
I think you are not correct here as this feels a lot like communism.
...what?
The goal here is quality over quantity. You'll stand out by submitting your best work, not by smothering out the competition with a ton of items. If we want the pool of items to be dominated by a handful of big names then, well, we already have the workshop for that!
With one entry per person/team, everyone gets a chance to show what they can do. That's the point, isn't it?
The goal here is quality over quantity. You'll stand out by submitting your best work, not by smothering out the competition with a ton of items. If we want the pool of items to be dominated by a handful of big names then, well, we already have the workshop for that!
With one entry per person/team, everyone gets a chance to show what they can do. That's the point, isn't it?
No? The idea is to make Valve release the PolyCount chest/chests. The more we produce the more items they can choose from increasing the chances for this to happen.
If you want to limit the submissions to one entry per person/team then limit the deadline to 2 weeks, too.
No? The idea is to make Valve release the PolyCount chest/chests. The more we produce the more items they can choose from increasing the chances for this to happen.
That's what you think it's about. Basically everyone else in this thread disagrees with you, including the person whose idea this is. I think he's more likely to know what it's about than you are.
No one is going to stop you releasing as many sets as you like, but that's not the point of doing this chest. You don't have to take part in it if you don't like it.
lets not argue, we have that in the other threads more then we need^^.
the solution is simple.. we will do it that way most people prefers it to be handled.
@DNAdota
So basically, either have the best of the best and cut out the rest (which would create some rifts withing the community)
Or have a community where the worst becomes better? Even with this option, nobody will force cooperation between two people that don't want to collaborate. The only rule I see that's "unfair" for professionals is the rule about having to give feedback. Which I view ridiculous because feedback is good for everybody.
The 1 limit is to make sure that nobody can "own" the chest. However I think 1 limit for 3 months may be too harsh (depending on how many sets will be made). I'd suggest if there's not a lot of sets within the first month it should be changed to 3 (once a month). If there is an over saturation problem during the first month (lets say 10 sets get completed), we will need to just compile it and start a brand new one.
As for one entry per team, I agree with hudson (if no problems occur), it basically means show the best you have. This solution means that there'd be less items in the chest though.
:thumbup: This is exactly why I have been bringing up the idea of trying to do more of a community update, like the tf2 robotic boogaloo, as opposed to a competition/Polycount chest. The way I see it there is already enough competition on the workshop as is by its intended design. If we could manage to actually do a massive collaboration, and get other aspects of the dota community involved, like DC doing tie in vids or whatever, I feel this could be something truly special for a game, and all of its communities that we are so passionate about. On that note I kind of went rogue earlier and dropped an email over to Valve bringing up what was being discussed here and shared this thread to see if we could get some sort of response, or blessing, or anything really from them on this. of course IF, and again I said IF they email me back I will be sure to share back here :poly136:
1 entry in 2 months is inadequate. Seriously tho, if u can make 5 good sets then make them. If u can't, well it's your problem, but don't limit others.
1 entry in 2 months is inadequate. Seriously tho, if u can make 5 good sets then make them. If u can't, well it's your problem, but don't limit others.
Nothing is stopping you from making 5 sets, you just have to enter the best one for the chest and release the others on your own. It's not rocket surgery.
I agree that reducing the deadline is better than allowing more sets per artist/team.
It will be an activity that people can participate once and when it is finished one can go back to its normal sets which are off this activity. I mean, you can always make 3-4 maybe 5 sets per 3(now its 2 ? ) months but not all of them must be in this PC chest/competition/activity, are they ? @Shock 2 months seems pretty good i think
And if people want to do more things for this chest considering they have already finished their set, there could be a chest design including theme, a comic, trailer video and such.
event start20.january (cause until then new bloom stuff has to be published already)
event deadline20.march (so we have exactly 2months time)
goal is to produce hero sets, ward, courier our hud - in a friendly and supportive atmosphere
there wont be a limit on the number of people who will be allowed to join this event,
as well as every project that is finished in time will be added to the one big workshop chest collection.
if valve likes to add our polycount chest, they can decide which submission they wana take in.
as soon as we open the event, we will create a new thread.
in that thread u can sign in to take part. u should write what u can do /like to do
(concept, modeling, texture, animation, particles, whatever) and give a link to ur workshop
and /or ur personal polycount thread, so its easier for everyone to find a team.
maybe u can even say what u are looking for.
teams can be one or more persons, i know there are several people out there who are able to produce
a set all alone - u can do that, but it would be nice if u would still team up with anyone
that would push a bit the learning from each other effect. also use the chance and do not team up someone u allways team up^^
use the chance and team up with someone new, maybe someone who u allways wanted to work with - but never had the chance to.
as well as one team must only focus on one project and try to make that as good as possible.
another little limitation here is that u can max. take part in 2 projects (if u do one project with one team,
and the other one with another team)
the % revenue share should be choosen inside the team individual to how the work split is. we wont set up anything fix here.
the theme is either free or chosen by the group of signed artists.
(maybe u should not pick chen slardar or kotl, since i heard valve doesnt like
to add sets for those heroes atm since they are going get a touchup)
feedback and criticism: i think we should use the thread to show wips (same as it is currently done in the monthly polycount competition).
but we can also use skype groupchat - or google hangout.
if u give feedback to something, plz keep in mind the other guy is also a human with feelings.
try to avoid things like "looks allover shit" but try to give constructive feedback.
what do u think? did i miss stomething? should we add anything other?
what do u people prefer?
if we go for a theme, it should be a theme that is not limiting too hard.
any good ideas? it could be something like "Sound of War" what would more
or less allow anything.
I'd probably opt for no theme if it were me (and not because I already have some ideas, promise!), but if we go for a theme I'm sure we'll come up with something good.
Whether or not it is a contest doesn't really matter does it?
There's got to be quality control, and the best way (less hurt feelings) is to have outside judges decide.
The point of the 'event' is to help everyone make the best possible set they can. Aside from that there still has to be final quality control.
The difference between this and the TF2 events is that it is open to all forum members.
The TF2 event was a selective group of artists and they did NOT allow anyone in.
If this event was like that there would be 5-10 regular contributors who were making stuff in secret and releasing to valve.
I'm up for an all inclusive event, but most likely stuff will have to be trimmed from that event.
As far as percentages, if they are submitted as a chest, then the percent would have to be equally divided amongst all item creators, no matter their involvement. How would you split revenue between 10 sets so that the modeller gets a certain % and a concept artist get a certain %.
I appreciate the enthusiasm on display in this thread ! Good stuff
The following is a bit of a side note, but something I thought I'd bring up : when it comes to the organization of any kind of group event (online or not !) it is always best to avoid thinking of the planning and setup as being done by some hypothetical "we" - sadly, things never really work that way in practice. Many things can get in the way of a smooth group collaboration, and when it happens there is always a need for someone to hold things together. These things take a lot of dedication to make them happen !
Just think of the time and effort required to submit a set, even when going barebones ; that is to say, not adding particles or crazy SFM movies but simply creating nice thumbnails, taking the best screenshots possible, and maybe putting a quick video trailer together. This alone takes a lot of time and effort ; sometime *weeks* if done as a side project. Now all this gets multiplied when dealing with multiple people.
Now I am not saying such group efforts are not possible ; from experience I can confirm that they can be done, and it is extremely satisfying when things finally come together. Just something to keep in mind
[edit] Baddcog, these details about the TF2 group effort are very interesting. Is there any other successful community-driven efforts that we could study ? From the top of my head I can think of the older Unreal Community Bonus Packs ; the current Unreal4 initiative ; and of course the DotaCinema chest. Anything else ?
As far as percentages, if they are submitted as a chest, then the percent would have to be equally divided amongst all item creators, no matter their involvement. How would you split revenue between 10 sets so that the modeller gets a certain % and a concept artist get a certain %.
The system is already in place at the item level - I don't think there is any need to make things more complicated !
Great idea, and thanks for taking the initiative on this, Shock. Kind of late to the party, but I agree with a lot of the comments already posted.
Personally, I like the idea of having a theme, because it ties the project together a bit. It's not necessary though, and valve's chests only sometimes have a loose theme.
Are you limiting the chest to full sets? Wards? Couriers? Singles?
Personally I'd think limiting it to single items might not be bad as more artists can contribute and as a big sign to Valvo that we want single items back.
No more Pudge hooks or Axe axes pls though.
I'm thinking that I need to make a page on the Hattery just for the Polycount community's work.
Are you limiting the chest to full sets? Wards? Couriers? Singles?
Personally I'd think limiting it to single items might not be bad as more hatters can contribute and as a big sign to Valvo that we want single items back.
No more Pudge hooks or Axe axes pls though.
I'm thinking that I need to make a page on the Hattery just for the Polycount community's work.
I think single items are pretty much dead in the water at this point, sadly. I suspect that they don't make anywhere near as much as sets do, which is why valve seems to be killing them off.
I also doubt that valve would put singles and sets in the same chest as it'd be pretty disappointing to buy a chest and win a single item. Maybe if we had a bundle of single items take up a single slot in the chest, but even then I don't think valve would like it. This might just be me being a bit glass half empty though... there may still be room for them, perhaps each set could also come with a single or two as a bonus?
also if we wanted to go for single items we could just skip this whole event and take all the winners of this years polycount competition and put them together into one chest.
that would result in mostlikly not beeing added, since if valve wanted to have those items ingame they had the whole year time to add them already. as well as we would loose all the social ideas behind this current event concept. i think all of u agree with me that we want to produce something new, together. something that is showcasing all the individual fantastic artists of this community as well as having a realistic chance of beeing added to the game.
Could always do the two chest ideas and have one chest directed at sets and a single item bundle like they had in the store a couple of times before. I'd be interested in participating if collaborations are allowed, sadly only a concept artist and designs would be the only way I could contribute.
Well after reading all comments I have a few point although some are being said allready:
1. 2 months is a good time period, especially when were working in teams
2. @DNAdota: I feel you don't get the point of this, you can make as many sets what u wnat and upload them to the workshop like you normally do. Like Hudsen allready stated, if you enter with your best one for the chest what's wrong with that.
3. No theme is fine by me, if you pick a theme you will limit the creativity, and that's somethign you don't want I think.
4. We still don't know abything about if singles are still being accepted, if we would accept that why would we change this from the normal mothly competition?
5. What I do miss now a bit is the (mixed) team purpose of it, I expected it more to be a team contest where you can work with new people. The way I read it now, it's probably still going to be an individual or team effort, where we will find the same people working together like always.
6. If there are more entry's and we feel they are all really good that we will make 2 chest, that won't be a problem..
also if we wanted to go for single items we could just skip this whole event and take all the winners of this years polycount competition and put them together into one chest.
There is no need to think of it in such black and white terms ! Both can happen. All it takes is the initial effort of compiling past monthly contest entries and winners, just to get an initial idea of what we have to work with. (I would love to help with that, I just don't have the time and resources to do that at the moment - no workstation available, and obligations for the holidays.)
Also, this is just a gut feeling but I am pretty confident that there is no hard rule in place at Valve when it comes to putting single items in the store - be it as a bundle or some kind of randomized chest ... It's all about putting out good content !
I would be more than happy to combine my items from this years comps into a chest.
Tvidotto's winning entry was already added though, maybe the 2nd place from that month?
Early on in the Year Valve expressed interest in seeing these items for possible addition, guess that seemed to fade fast. Idk.
Though I don't think that should replace a 'community event' chest. It could just be a first submission chest. The event could be more elaborate (sets) or themed or whatever, just more of a cohesive set.
If we did this years contest stuff the biggest thing would probably be nice artwork and a chest model. The promo art is definitely not my strongest point and my items could certainly use help in that regard.
Maybe someone would be willing to do promo art for a percent of the chest.
honestly i think those items idle in workshop since up to a year now. and not only those but there are also a lot of rly good other single items also stuck in the workshop limbo for like forever. reupping them to bundle them in a chest wont rly change that, since as if valve wanted to see them ingame, they had added them themselves. (its also not that i dislike ur winning submissions or something like that, i highly respect anyone who is winning a month. and u have some nice single items in ur workshop!) but it was also mentioned to some people, as well as some organizations that valve is not interested anymore in single items. sadly i have none of the chatlogs saved to prove it (as well as it may change again at a later point).
maybe anyone of the other artists can /sign what i said.
also i am not 100% against this "1 year of polycount competition chest" collection, but in this case - at this moment i think it would harm the effort that is happening here. creating something new (without also letting old stuff inside as well, if the idea is to combine old and new) will improve the chance to get the chest through. we have here already more then 50 artists who did show interest in this event, as well i "fear" there will come even some more when we start it
with such a mass of artists we will also create a huge volume of submissions <- that will be already tough for valve to choose if there are 20-30 submissions in our collection. if u now add maybe place1 (and 2) of the last years we got another 12-24 submissions inside. i think its simply too much as well as "blurring" our social goals:
- create something together
- giving smaller artists the chance to team up with others and also create a set (u would not think how many artists are out there who inside that point, who couldnt produce a set so far, because they were alone)
- learning from each other
and finally because the project is the most powerful if it is also interesting for valve, those favor sets couriers and wards at the moment.
still, i dont wana throw this idea away just like that, so if others also prefer to use the old polycount monthly competition single items we can still do it.
ps: sorry if my english is not perfect, it was tough for me to explain - i hope i was anyhow able to explain it in a way that u could follow my thoughts.
I have to say that I don't like the idea of entering existing items. Most of us have idle, unused items in our workshops but isn't this supposed to be more of an event to get people working together to make new things?
I have to say that I don't like the idea of entering existing items. Most of us have idle, unused items in our workshops but isn't this supposed to be more of an event to get people working together to make new things?
I agree, for this event we should be focusing on new fresh content to help promote collaboration, and the idea that we are a community, and show why we are the best game art community around! In this regard too, this is where a theme could help push the idea of new content
Indeed, why don't we plan a makeover chest where participants submit their items along with their Before and After comparisons? Fresh idea, inspires newcomers to improve, recycle old items from being wasted.
I don't seem why you shouldn't make a v2 of it, although there's probably a reason why it hasn't been added in the first place. Offcourse you will change a few things, but who know why they have't added it. quality, lore etc..
I completely agree with Hudson, the reason this is brought to life is where people cna work together making new things. If a certain old idea is recycled in a complete new one, that shouldn't be a problem.
i think it would be ofc possible that u take one of ur old items, rework it and create a set out of it.
lets say u did a rly great mount in one of the polycount competitions for a hero. u can take that one again, maybe rework texture or masks littlebit - because u have improved in the meantime and can do it better now. and then build a full set arround of it.
it would turn an old nonaccepted single item into a set that fits our idea of a marketable chest as well has good improved chance to get added. and also cover up the "create something new together" theme.
Just for another idea, I came up with this event earlier in the year. Just never took off but I'd love for players especially ones who aren't super famous to get some hat support.
Pro player set event with the Dota2 Workshop community
This event will focus on the pro players and influential members of the dota2 community. Casters, players, and personalities (eg. cyborgmatt) to have sets designed for them by workshop artists via a small description and a list of their favourite heroes.
At the end of the event, players will then be able to choose their favourite sets as the winners, and if valve accepts the items into the game, they can go onto the player store.
Of course everything will go through the workshop meat grinder to make sure the community is on board.
We will send out a blanket wide invite to all pro players who would like to join in on this event. We explain the rules and they can decide whether or not this is worth their time.
Valves involvement in this can be a simple as a blog post, stating the start of the event and doing the regular workshop thing of evaluating sets and adding them to the game if they are popular enough.
But to really help out, making it easy for people to give a pro player a split would be to have a checkbox saying what pro player it is for, which automatically sets the split for them to be 30%.
For example of a Players info that a workshop artist will work off.
Player name: Sing_Sing
Current Team: Speed Gaming
Favourite heroes: Kunkka, Mirana, ShadowShaman, TA
Bio: I'm often the middle player for my team, and for public games, though the roles are incomparable in that regard, this is where I often feel I can do the most in a match making game, through actively controlling the runes, having (hopefully) a 1 vs 1 situation, and most importantly snowball and crush that same opponent.
When watching my stream, you'll will see me using some odd skill and item builds -- these builds are often unoptimal in most situations, however, even though I don't get the most effective builds, it doesn't mean that I'm not trying my hardest to win, more than often I still actually am. just through different ways than I've done a million times already.
Link to twitch account: Twitch.tv/sing_sing
Favourite in game items/ builds: Mask of Madness, Shadow Blade, Divine Rapier
Rules of the event:
Full sets or couriers only. Or perhaps we can have a section for single items too, and we can bundle a player chest at the end of the event.
Only heroes that have items enabled and working in the importer can be chosen.
Players will receive a 30% split on the set. The other 70% will go to the artists who worked on it.
If a player likes X amount of sets, perhaps we can release them over time, according to their preference.
Pros and Cons for holding an event for something like this
Cons
- Lack of direct interaction between players and artists, which we have had in the past.
- Higher chance of sets never getting in, if a player doesn't choose it.
-Time constraints can hinder busy pro artists.
- Not all heroes are available for work, which leaves a lot of players favourite or iconic heroes out of the running. (ie. N0tail Wisp and Bulba Clockwork)
Pros
- Increased influx of players getting items made for them. Especially players who wouldnt be a first choice for an artist over a higher ranked player.
- Community competition, increasing the quality and variety of the workshop.
- More exposure for good artists who arent as well known.
- Time Constraints means more organised management.
Sounds like a solid idea Anuxi. My only concern, mostly irrelevant and probably unsolvable, is the submission distribution between personalities. I think we'll get a lot for like 5 personalities with a very fast drop off.
Like I said, I don't think there is anything to be done for this, its just kinda the nature of the beast. and it might not even be the case. I would partake in this type of community event for sures.
Just for another idea, I came up with this event earlier in the year. Just never took off but I'd love for players especially ones who aren't super famous to get some hat support.
For like a year now I want to make a set with Fata- I have him in Skype too, but he never answers - its really sad that I cant make a set for him even tho he said yes but as long as he doesnt answer I can make one for him.
Well, I hope that one day I can make the set for him with Spudnik.
So what we would need for your idea is a good contact with the players and players that want sets. So we would need like say 10 Players that everyone can contact so we can pick them or they can pick us.
I would love to make a set for Fata-,H4nn1 or qojqva.
With all the ideas like this we could do it would be really nice if the Dota team had a workshop community liaison that would be able to help communicate Valve's plans and help organize more Valve approved community events like this
With all the ideas like this we could do it would be really nice if the Dota team had a workshop community liaison that would be able to help communicate Valve's plans and help organize more Valve approved community events like this
That'd be wonderful. As much as I love them, I have to admit that Valve aren't too great at this communication thing. :poly124:
I started quoting people but it became a huge post and I decided to start over
----
the overall idea is really nice, having a community effort to make something big is really nice but I think it should not be confused with the monthly contest. The monthly contest is focused in teaching people and preparing them for the workshop, that is why it is mostly based on single items. (They can be part of a set if you want). But as Pior mentioned, making a set is a huge effort and based on my experience not everyone are whiling to do that if they are not experienced.
I believe it could work if it is as community effort, with the motivation based only on that. For that we should not wait Valve to judge or be part of it ( they tend to be more neutral on those matters and there are other forums that would like this opportunity. Would not be fair to do it again with polycount like they did 2 years ago ).
I also believe it should not be in a form of a contest, like some people mentioned before
Some of the problems mentioned on the thread were the lack of consistent feedback and people joining in the singles contest in the end, not really participating.
It may happen on a community effort for a chest too. I dont think that the idea of creating a chest will solve those issues but it may motivate a group of people to work more and be more participative.
In the end the final motivation is the workshop itself and getting an item in game, An effort for a chest may help on that too
the main dota 2 thread and the monthly contest here should work like that, as a motivation to work, to post wips and get feedbacks. Same could work for a chest effort. Fresh ideas help boosting the motivation
In resume, I like the idea and you guys should try. as Pior said there is no need to wait something happen for it =]
Hey good stuff here. I'm totally down for that, I like the free theme, but if we have something more consistent will pop up.
I really liked the personalities chest thing, since it has more chances to go in + advertising, some don't like the idea to split % with 3rd parties, but for my personal experience I guess it worths.
hell, lets do both.
after new bloom is done we can do the personal polycount chest event. deadline 2months.
and after that we can go for the next event, the pro player chest anuxi came up with.
and after that im sure we find another thing
While I do like the idea of personalities-based items and dig the fact that artists can team up with pro players to create successful cosmetic items ... I am not so sure about using this as a springboard for a community effort.
Now of course there is no doubt that the end result would be commercially successful, with a lot if not all of the resulting sets most likely getting in ... but wouldn't that go against the very idea of an art community like Polycount showing that it can be free of third parties when it comes to getting items accepted ?
While I do like the idea of personalities-based items and dig the fact that artists can team up with pro players to create for successful cosmetic items ... I am not so sure about using this as a springboard for a community effort.
Now of course there is no doubt that the end result would be commercially successful, with a lot if not all of the resulting sets most likely getting in ... but wouldn't that go against the very idea of an art community like Polycount showing that it can be free of third parties when it comes to getting items accepted ?
While I do like the idea of personalities-based items and dig the fact that artists can team up with pro players to create successful cosmetic items ... I am not so sure about using this as a springboard for a community effort.
Now of course there is no doubt that the end result would be commercially successful, with a lot if not all of the resulting sets most likely getting in ... but wouldn't that go against the very idea of an art community like Polycount showing that it can be free of third parties when it comes to getting items accepted ?
Yeah, looking by this point of view... I completly agree.
(Shock)
after new bloom is done we can do the personal polycount chest event. deadline 2months.
and after that we can go for the next event, the pro player chest anuxi came up with.
(Pior)
While I do like the idea of personalities-based items and dig the fact that artists can team up with pro players to create successful cosmetic items ... I am not so sure about using this as a springboard for a community effort.
I'm fine if the events are two different events, that way artists can choose whether they want to participate. Pior, you are right, that it does kind of go against that principle.
However this is community that have different views due to the amount of people. Its not that All of polycount says don't do pro sets. Some people are for, against, or neutral about 3rd party stuff. It also may just be up to timing, if we show that we want to be free from 3rd parties then from just one just we "cash out" then it basically says we're just money grubbing.
I think that after the first event (depending on the amount of participants), we hold the community chest afterwards as well as the pro chest. The pro chest would be similar to a "side-quest" rather than a "main quest".
Oh don't get me wrong, I am absolutely not in the "against" camp when it comes to pro sets and/or third parties involvement ! And understandably so - I participated in both in the past ! It comes with ups and downs, but it sure is interesting.
The part that I find problematic with the idea of a "pro player sets chest contest" is the thought of artists basically competing for the favors of pro players or orgs, especially if the thing being judged on is a lineup of finished sets, which takes a *lot* of time to design and execute. I really hope I am not sounding too negative by pointing this out - I just want to be sure that we are all talking about the same thing.
For instance, let's imagine 5 groups of artists (assuming a concept artist + a modeler for each team) all competing for an hypothetical "Dendi set". That means 10 people each dedicating 1 to 2 months of work, to produce final designs, models and textures for 5 similar sets. Then one gets picked by the pro player at the very end, which is great ... but then 8 artists end up with no work to even put in the workshop, since the 4 remaining sets are likely to be quite similar (same hero, and following the same design brief) and would cause confusion if all submitted to the workshop at the same time as "pro player" sets.
Not to mention that one of these losing sets could very well end up being more popular than the winner within the Dota2 and/or Polycount and/or Reddit community, causing more confusion ... Again, I really hope that I am not coming out as overly negative here - I just want to keep an healthy discussion going, as I feel like the workshop is such a fantastic place !
Now on the plus side : I could very well see pro players getting in touch with artists simply by looking at the body of work of anyone interested in doing a set for them. For instance, if a given pro player wants to have a set made for him/her, he/she could simply contact the teams of artists he/she would like to work with by looking at all the portfolios and workshop pages of artists who showed interest in such a collaboration. This would be a lot like the way commission work is being handled traditionally between a freelancer and a client.
Now I am not sure to agree with the % splits discussed above (giving away part of one's revenue instead of being paid for one's work is an odd thing when you think about it ...) but that's another subject altogether so I'll leave that for later
For instance, let's imagine 5 groups of artists (assuming a concept artist + a modeler for each team) all competing for an hypothetical "Dendi set". That means 10 people each dedicating 1 to 2 months of work, to produce final designs, models and textures for 5 similar sets. Then one gets picked by the pro player at the very end, which is great ... but then 8 artists end up with no work to even put in the workshop, since the 4 remaining sets are likely to be quite similar (same hero, and following the same design brief) and would cause confusion if all submitted to the workshop at the same time as "pro player" sets.
Overlap should be discussed, maybe it should be based on first come first serve type of thing? For instance if a group wants to work on a Doom set, they say write on the thread and nobody else takes doom as a hero. That way nobody steps on each other's toes.
Shork! H4NN1 needs more sets! Send me a hoorah on skype (leave me a message) and I'll let Kai know ) id: anuxinamoon
Sry just saw ur msg today. Well I added u and sent you a little message. I would love to work with H4nn1 if he wants a set then I just need someone to do the 3D stuff. :-D
Replies
;(
I think having a limit to the number of submissions is a limitation to the creativity and work process of the event. Also, a deadline that long isn't helping anyone. All the rules you are setting are focusing on helping the amateur's have a shot and diminishing the professionals' work. I think you are not correct here as this feels a lot like communism.
...what?
The goal here is quality over quantity. You'll stand out by submitting your best work, not by smothering out the competition with a ton of items. If we want the pool of items to be dominated by a handful of big names then, well, we already have the workshop for that!
With one entry per person/team, everyone gets a chance to show what they can do. That's the point, isn't it?
No? The idea is to make Valve release the PolyCount chest/chests. The more we produce the more items they can choose from increasing the chances for this to happen.
If you want to limit the submissions to one entry per person/team then limit the deadline to 2 weeks, too.
That's what you think it's about. Basically everyone else in this thread disagrees with you, including the person whose idea this is. I think he's more likely to know what it's about than you are.
No one is going to stop you releasing as many sets as you like, but that's not the point of doing this chest. You don't have to take part in it if you don't like it.
the solution is simple.. we will do it that way most people prefers it to be handled.
So basically, either have the best of the best and cut out the rest (which would create some rifts withing the community)
Or have a community where the worst becomes better? Even with this option, nobody will force cooperation between two people that don't want to collaborate. The only rule I see that's "unfair" for professionals is the rule about having to give feedback. Which I view ridiculous because feedback is good for everybody.
The 1 limit is to make sure that nobody can "own" the chest. However I think 1 limit for 3 months may be too harsh (depending on how many sets will be made). I'd suggest if there's not a lot of sets within the first month it should be changed to 3 (once a month). If there is an over saturation problem during the first month (lets say 10 sets get completed), we will need to just compile it and start a brand new one.
As for one entry per team, I agree with hudson (if no problems occur), it basically means show the best you have. This solution means that there'd be less items in the chest though.
:thumbup: This is exactly why I have been bringing up the idea of trying to do more of a community update, like the tf2 robotic boogaloo, as opposed to a competition/Polycount chest. The way I see it there is already enough competition on the workshop as is by its intended design. If we could manage to actually do a massive collaboration, and get other aspects of the dota community involved, like DC doing tie in vids or whatever, I feel this could be something truly special for a game, and all of its communities that we are so passionate about. On that note I kind of went rogue earlier and dropped an email over to Valve bringing up what was being discussed here and shared this thread to see if we could get some sort of response, or blessing, or anything really from them on this. of course IF, and again I said IF they email me back I will be sure to share back here :poly136:
Do whatever you like. I'm not arguing with you.
Nothing is stopping you from making 5 sets, you just have to enter the best one for the chest and release the others on your own. It's not rocket surgery.
It will be an activity that people can participate once and when it is finished one can go back to its normal sets which are off this activity. I mean, you can always make 3-4 maybe 5 sets per 3(now its 2 ?
@Shock 2 months seems pretty good i think
And if people want to do more things for this chest considering they have already finished their set, there could be a chest design including theme, a comic, trailer video and such.
Polycount Community Chest Event #1
event start 20.january (cause until then new bloom stuff has to be published already)
event deadline 20.march (so we have exactly 2months time)
goal is to produce hero sets, ward, courier our hud - in a friendly and supportive atmosphere
there wont be a limit on the number of people who will be allowed to join this event,
as well as every project that is finished in time will be added to the one big workshop chest collection.
if valve likes to add our polycount chest, they can decide which submission they wana take in.
as soon as we open the event, we will create a new thread.
in that thread u can sign in to take part. u should write what u can do /like to do
(concept, modeling, texture, animation, particles, whatever) and give a link to ur workshop
and /or ur personal polycount thread, so its easier for everyone to find a team.
maybe u can even say what u are looking for.
teams can be one or more persons, i know there are several people out there who are able to produce
a set all alone - u can do that, but it would be nice if u would still team up with anyone
that would push a bit the learning from each other effect. also use the chance and do not team up someone u allways team up^^
use the chance and team up with someone new, maybe someone who u allways wanted to work with - but never had the chance to.
as well as one team must only focus on one project and try to make that as good as possible.
another little limitation here is that u can max. take part in 2 projects (if u do one project with one team,
and the other one with another team)
the % revenue share should be choosen inside the team individual to how the work split is. we wont set up anything fix here.
the theme is either free or chosen by the group of signed artists.
(maybe u should not pick chen slardar or kotl, since i heard valve doesnt like
to add sets for those heroes atm since they are going get a touchup)
feedback and criticism: i think we should use the thread to show wips (same as it is currently done in the monthly polycount competition).
but we can also use skype groupchat - or google hangout.
if u give feedback to something, plz keep in mind the other guy is also a human with feelings.
try to avoid things like "looks allover shit" but try to give constructive feedback.
what do u think? did i miss stomething? should we add anything other?
what do u people prefer?
if we go for a theme, it should be a theme that is not limiting too hard.
any good ideas? it could be something like "Sound of War" what would more
or less allow anything.
There's got to be quality control, and the best way (less hurt feelings) is to have outside judges decide.
The point of the 'event' is to help everyone make the best possible set they can. Aside from that there still has to be final quality control.
The difference between this and the TF2 events is that it is open to all forum members.
The TF2 event was a selective group of artists and they did NOT allow anyone in.
If this event was like that there would be 5-10 regular contributors who were making stuff in secret and releasing to valve.
I'm up for an all inclusive event, but most likely stuff will have to be trimmed from that event.
As far as percentages, if they are submitted as a chest, then the percent would have to be equally divided amongst all item creators, no matter their involvement. How would you split revenue between 10 sets so that the modeller gets a certain % and a concept artist get a certain %.
The following is a bit of a side note, but something I thought I'd bring up : when it comes to the organization of any kind of group event (online or not !) it is always best to avoid thinking of the planning and setup as being done by some hypothetical "we" - sadly, things never really work that way in practice. Many things can get in the way of a smooth group collaboration, and when it happens there is always a need for someone to hold things together. These things take a lot of dedication to make them happen !
Just think of the time and effort required to submit a set, even when going barebones ; that is to say, not adding particles or crazy SFM movies but simply creating nice thumbnails, taking the best screenshots possible, and maybe putting a quick video trailer together. This alone takes a lot of time and effort ; sometime *weeks* if done as a side project. Now all this gets multiplied when dealing with multiple people.
Now I am not saying such group efforts are not possible ; from experience I can confirm that they can be done, and it is extremely satisfying when things finally come together. Just something to keep in mind
[edit] Baddcog, these details about the TF2 group effort are very interesting. Is there any other successful community-driven efforts that we could study ? From the top of my head I can think of the older Unreal Community Bonus Packs ; the current Unreal4 initiative ; and of course the DotaCinema chest. Anything else ?
The system is already in place at the item level - I don't think there is any need to make things more complicated !
Personally, I like the idea of having a theme, because it ties the project together a bit. It's not necessary though, and valve's chests only sometimes have a loose theme.
Personally I'd think limiting it to single items might not be bad as more artists can contribute and as a big sign to Valvo that we want single items back.
No more Pudge hooks or Axe axes pls though.
I'm thinking that I need to make a page on the Hattery just for the Polycount community's work.
I think single items are pretty much dead in the water at this point, sadly. I suspect that they don't make anywhere near as much as sets do, which is why valve seems to be killing them off.
I also doubt that valve would put singles and sets in the same chest as it'd be pretty disappointing to buy a chest and win a single item. Maybe if we had a bundle of single items take up a single slot in the chest, but even then I don't think valve would like it. This might just be me being a bit glass half empty though... there may still be room for them, perhaps each set could also come with a single or two as a bonus?
that would result in mostlikly not beeing added, since if valve wanted to have those items ingame they had the whole year time to add them already. as well as we would loose all the social ideas behind this current event concept. i think all of u agree with me that we want to produce something new, together. something that is showcasing all the individual fantastic artists of this community as well as having a realistic chance of beeing added to the game.
1. 2 months is a good time period, especially when were working in teams
2. @DNAdota: I feel you don't get the point of this, you can make as many sets what u wnat and upload them to the workshop like you normally do. Like Hudsen allready stated, if you enter with your best one for the chest what's wrong with that.
3. No theme is fine by me, if you pick a theme you will limit the creativity, and that's somethign you don't want I think.
4. We still don't know abything about if singles are still being accepted, if we would accept that why would we change this from the normal mothly competition?
5. What I do miss now a bit is the (mixed) team purpose of it, I expected it more to be a team contest where you can work with new people. The way I read it now, it's probably still going to be an individual or team effort, where we will find the same people working together like always.
6. If there are more entry's and we feel they are all really good that we will make 2 chest, that won't be a problem..
There is no need to think of it in such black and white terms ! Both can happen. All it takes is the initial effort of compiling past monthly contest entries and winners, just to get an initial idea of what we have to work with. (I would love to help with that, I just don't have the time and resources to do that at the moment - no workstation available, and obligations for the holidays.)
Also, this is just a gut feeling but I am pretty confident that there is no hard rule in place at Valve when it comes to putting single items in the store - be it as a bundle or some kind of randomized chest ... It's all about putting out good content !
Tvidotto's winning entry was already added though, maybe the 2nd place from that month?
Early on in the Year Valve expressed interest in seeing these items for possible addition, guess that seemed to fade fast. Idk.
Though I don't think that should replace a 'community event' chest. It could just be a first submission chest. The event could be more elaborate (sets) or themed or whatever, just more of a cohesive set.
If we did this years contest stuff the biggest thing would probably be nice artwork and a chest model. The promo art is definitely not my strongest point and my items could certainly use help in that regard.
Maybe someone would be willing to do promo art for a percent of the chest.
maybe anyone of the other artists can /sign what i said.
also i am not 100% against this "1 year of polycount competition chest" collection, but in this case - at this moment i think it would harm the effort that is happening here. creating something new (without also letting old stuff inside as well, if the idea is to combine old and new) will improve the chance to get the chest through. we have here already more then 50 artists who did show interest in this event, as well i "fear" there will come even some more when we start it
with such a mass of artists we will also create a huge volume of submissions <- that will be already tough for valve to choose if there are 20-30 submissions in our collection. if u now add maybe place1 (and 2) of the last years we got another 12-24 submissions inside. i think its simply too much as well as "blurring" our social goals:
- create something together
- giving smaller artists the chance to team up with others and also create a set (u would not think how many artists are out there who inside that point, who couldnt produce a set so far, because they were alone)
- learning from each other
and finally because the project is the most powerful if it is also interesting for valve, those favor sets couriers and wards at the moment.
still, i dont wana throw this idea away just like that, so if others also prefer to use the old polycount monthly competition single items we can still do it.
ps: sorry if my english is not perfect, it was tough for me to explain - i hope i was anyhow able to explain it in a way that u could follow my thoughts.
greez
I agree, for this event we should be focusing on new fresh content to help promote collaboration, and the idea that we are a community, and show why we are the best game art community around! In this regard too, this is where a theme could help push the idea of new content
I see no harm in this, especially if the item is being remade completely
I completely agree with Hudson, the reason this is brought to life is where people cna work together making new things. If a certain old idea is recycled in a complete new one, that shouldn't be a problem.
lets say u did a rly great mount in one of the polycount competitions for a hero. u can take that one again, maybe rework texture or masks littlebit - because u have improved in the meantime and can do it better now. and then build a full set arround of it.
it would turn an old nonaccepted single item into a set that fits our idea of a marketable chest as well has good improved chance to get added. and also cover up the "create something new together" theme.
Like I said, I don't think there is anything to be done for this, its just kinda the nature of the beast. and it might not even be the case. I would partake in this type of community event for sures.
Well, I hope that one day I can make the set for him with Spudnik.
So what we would need for your idea is a good contact with the players and players that want sets. So we would need like say 10 Players that everyone can contact so we can pick them or they can pick us.
I would love to make a set for Fata-,H4nn1 or qojqva.
That'd be wonderful. As much as I love them, I have to admit that Valve aren't too great at this communication thing. :poly124:
I started quoting people but it became a huge post and I decided to start over
----
the overall idea is really nice, having a community effort to make something big is really nice but I think it should not be confused with the monthly contest. The monthly contest is focused in teaching people and preparing them for the workshop, that is why it is mostly based on single items. (They can be part of a set if you want). But as Pior mentioned, making a set is a huge effort and based on my experience not everyone are whiling to do that if they are not experienced.
I believe it could work if it is as community effort, with the motivation based only on that. For that we should not wait Valve to judge or be part of it ( they tend to be more neutral on those matters and there are other forums that would like this opportunity. Would not be fair to do it again with polycount like they did 2 years ago ).
I also believe it should not be in a form of a contest, like some people mentioned before
Some of the problems mentioned on the thread were the lack of consistent feedback and people joining in the singles contest in the end, not really participating.
It may happen on a community effort for a chest too. I dont think that the idea of creating a chest will solve those issues but it may motivate a group of people to work more and be more participative.
In the end the final motivation is the workshop itself and getting an item in game, An effort for a chest may help on that too
the main dota 2 thread and the monthly contest here should work like that, as a motivation to work, to post wips and get feedbacks. Same could work for a chest effort. Fresh ideas help boosting the motivation
In resume, I like the idea and you guys should try. as Pior said there is no need to wait something happen for it =]
I really liked the personalities chest thing, since it has more chances to go in + advertising, some don't like the idea to split % with 3rd parties, but for my personal experience I guess it worths.
after new bloom is done we can do the personal polycount chest event. deadline 2months.
and after that we can go for the next event, the pro player chest anuxi came up with.
and after that im sure we find another thing
are u all with me?
Now of course there is no doubt that the end result would be commercially successful, with a lot if not all of the resulting sets most likely getting in ... but wouldn't that go against the very idea of an art community like Polycount showing that it can be free of third parties when it comes to getting items accepted ?
OH SNAP!
Yeah, looking by this point of view... I completly agree.
I'm fine if the events are two different events, that way artists can choose whether they want to participate. Pior, you are right, that it does kind of go against that principle.
However this is community that have different views due to the amount of people. Its not that All of polycount says don't do pro sets. Some people are for, against, or neutral about 3rd party stuff. It also may just be up to timing, if we show that we want to be free from 3rd parties then from just one just we "cash out" then it basically says we're just money grubbing.
I think that after the first event (depending on the amount of participants), we hold the community chest afterwards as well as the pro chest. The pro chest would be similar to a "side-quest" rather than a "main quest".
The part that I find problematic with the idea of a "pro player sets chest contest" is the thought of artists basically competing for the favors of pro players or orgs, especially if the thing being judged on is a lineup of finished sets, which takes a *lot* of time to design and execute. I really hope I am not sounding too negative by pointing this out - I just want to be sure that we are all talking about the same thing.
For instance, let's imagine 5 groups of artists (assuming a concept artist + a modeler for each team) all competing for an hypothetical "Dendi set". That means 10 people each dedicating 1 to 2 months of work, to produce final designs, models and textures for 5 similar sets. Then one gets picked by the pro player at the very end, which is great ... but then 8 artists end up with no work to even put in the workshop, since the 4 remaining sets are likely to be quite similar (same hero, and following the same design brief) and would cause confusion if all submitted to the workshop at the same time as "pro player" sets.
Not to mention that one of these losing sets could very well end up being more popular than the winner within the Dota2 and/or Polycount and/or Reddit community, causing more confusion ... Again, I really hope that I am not coming out as overly negative here - I just want to keep an healthy discussion going, as I feel like the workshop is such a fantastic place !
Now on the plus side : I could very well see pro players getting in touch with artists simply by looking at the body of work of anyone interested in doing a set for them. For instance, if a given pro player wants to have a set made for him/her, he/she could simply contact the teams of artists he/she would like to work with by looking at all the portfolios and workshop pages of artists who showed interest in such a collaboration. This would be a lot like the way commission work is being handled traditionally between a freelancer and a client.
Now I am not sure to agree with the % splits discussed above (giving away part of one's revenue instead of being paid for one's work is an odd thing when you think about it ...) but that's another subject altogether so I'll leave that for later
I hope this makes sense !
Overlap should be discussed, maybe it should be based on first come first serve type of thing? For instance if a group wants to work on a Doom set, they say write on the thread and nobody else takes doom as a hero. That way nobody steps on each other's toes.