I think the changes are improvements for getting the best items good ratings.
There are flaws from watching the tf2 workshop imo though.
'top rated' for today is misleading. It counts up and down votes. So if something gets 300 down votes it could be 'most popular' for today. Which probably leads to more down votes.
The good thing is that people are voting on old stuff. So the best of the best will be going up no matter how old. And the worst will be going down.
The misleading part is only the author can see the popularity of their items. You really can't see anymore what the most popular items are. But I guess Valve can and that's what matters. And this system seems to be helping that a lot.
I have old items that were popular (and some that are not) and now they are getting voted on again either way.
So it's no longer who can put out the best items this week, but overall. That's good because there are a lot of really good old items that just seemed to get lost before.
My current concern leans toward 'oversaturation', but only due to how little Valve seems to put things in at the present time. A majority of the items recently have been affiliated things, and there are far more great quality sets getting submitted than they ever come close to accepting, which on one hand is fine, but can be frustrating when you consider it's been to be 2-3 org chests in a row, and then an event which might last even longer and of course will introduce another 3-4 months worth of potential content. It feels like the backlog will continue to grow and many things will unavoidably be forgotten, quality or not. (I mean, by the time new bloom items stop getting in, we will probably have another 20 fantastic sets waiting on top of what's waiting now)
basically what I'm trying to say is, even if there are lots of great things, it feels like awesome submissions far outpace valve's current rate of acceptance. Of course, this can always change in the future, who knows if they will dump like 30 sets at once or something to 'catch up' (or even singles would be nice!). I just really hope that people aren't forced to partner up with tournaments for the only chance to see their stuff in within 8 months/ever. With more stuff available I'm sure Valve still wants to keep up some seblance of value for sets too, and that must be really difficult for them considering the overwhelming flow of great content submitted.
What do you guys feel is the best course of action going forward if the current trend sticks? (Valve being valve, I'm pretty sure it will continue to change indefinitely, but I find it really interesting to think about)
personally I'm thinking of just submitting far less stuff, but spending more time on making sure the design/result is as good as I am capable. It's tough for me because I love doing this but it's discouraging seeing tournaments getting priority over artists, instead of even just doing half/half. and yes I know I ramble. Apologies! I think about this shit way too much, hehe.
Its such a mix of problems. Quality/Amount of community interest should matter over sponsorship, but doesn't. You can't get rid of sponsored items entirely, but balancing it with just completely stand alone community stuff is apparently tricky to do. Other than have an equal quota for both like 1 sponsored chest and 1 community chest every x months, or x sets/huds/etc of each every x month I'm not really sure.
There could be some kind of system to match up already existing-yet-not added Workshop content with tournament organizers who are seeking stuff. That way instead of flooding things constantly some of the already existing content could get utilized. But that'd take more work on the organizers part. Which is why I kind of doubt it would ever happen. (Not flaming them I just doubt they have the time to become part of an approval system, even for their own tournament/chest/etc)
Either way Workshop with only Dota 2 as a job was feasible to me like a year ago, but now it feels less likely to be the case unless Valve changes things a bit. We got a new bloom event coming up which is good, problem being events like that, especially when they aren't very often as far as Workshoppers all participating in one thing, have so much competition that it isn't consistent for anyone involved. If Valve did events more often, like every few months, that would probably help balance how often community-specific content gets in over sponsored stuff, because essentially at that point its "Valve"-sponsored, since that is who we are catering to.
So there are routes to get things to work. And I imagine with the overall outlook people in this thread seem to have Valve needs to do something, its just a matter of how long it will take them to (hopefully) listen and make it a better environment for everyone.
I think the changes are improvements for getting the best items good ratings.
Really? I am consistently seeing (in general) worse quality submissions on the main items page than before the changes were implemented, and much more randomness due to the 1-2 day cutoff for visibility.
The good thing is that people are voting on old stuff. So the best of the best will be going up no matter how old. And the worst will be going down.
Getting more comments on certain old submissions than anything I've released since the workshop changes is not a good sign to me, and certainly doesn't provide me anything helpful. I would much prefer to have more eyes on my new work than what has already gone through the cycle. Besides, there was always a "most popular all time" tab, nothing seemed in dire need of fixing or changing.
The misleading part is only the author can see the popularity of their items. You really can't see anymore what the most popular items are. But I guess Valve can and that's what matters. And this system seems to be helping that a lot.
That's actually less information for the artist, no benefit there. I used to pay close attention to the ratings of new submissions every week; it was a decent way to judge the community's response to new ideas/trends in a workshop whose community is always changing and evolving. I'm feeling much less in-tune with what's currently being produced in the artist community now than in any point in the past (and I've been around since the dawn of all workshops), and I'm not very pleased about it.
Of course I'm willing to make due, but if I were to wake up tomorrow and the old system was magically back in place, I would shed a single tear of joy. Actually, two, one for each eye.
Hmm I only recently started getting into making items for the workshop so this thread is pretty helpful. I've made only one item so far and from the looks of things I should make that one item into a set!
It is very hard to get a feel of how well my item is doing, and why it may not be doing well also.
I guess it's just too big of an ocean out there now?
Really? I am consistently seeing (in general) worse quality submissions on the main items page than before the changes were implemented, and much more randomness due to the 1-2 day cutoff for visibility.
Getting more comments on certain old submissions than anything I've released since the workshop changes is not a good sign to me, and certainly doesn't provide me anything helpful. I would much prefer to have more eyes on my new work than what has already gone through the cycle. Besides, there was always a "most popular all time" tab, nothing seemed in dire need of fixing or changing.
That's actually less information for the artist, no benefit there. I used to pay close attention to the ratings of new submissions every week; it was a decent way to judge the community's response to new ideas/trends in a workshop whose community is always changing and evolving. I'm feeling much less in-tune with what's currently being produced in the artist community now than in any point in the past (and I've been around since the dawn of all workshops), and I'm not very pleased about it.
Of course I'm willing to make due, but if I were to wake up tomorrow and the old system was magically back in place, I would shed a single tear of joy. Actually, two, one for each eye.
I did a lot of TF2 stuff and it would be popular for awhile and fade into obscurity. I think some of my older items were still my best ideas/work (stuff last year). It's good to see it getting some attention again, there are still a few items I want in game that I think fit well and would do very good in the store.
I don't want to think of that stuff as a waste of time just because I made it awhile back.
One thing though, while I have been getting a lot more ratings on stuff recently, I am probably getting fewer comments. But that's OK because comments were usually 'add it now' or stick figure bob spam.
It might be less info as to how popular it is overall, but they added and graph line for total votes/down votes so you can judge the popularity better.
I do miss the 'most popular all time/weekly/3 months', like I said the new most popular today is misleading now because it's good and bad votes together.
The new system is also better for artists like me with fewer items. I'm sure you (Chemical Alia)(tf2 and dota accepted right?) have a larger following and that alone helps gets more votes/push to front page to get even more votes.
But that's also what would bury a lot of other/older work quickly.
As far as TF2, another benefit imo is the best items no matter the age will rise to top.
exp:
I made a tf2 'backpack' teddybear. Before xmas last year I got a lot of popular votes. I had like a 95% approval. Then they only put in like 10 xmas items and eventually for months I didn't get any votes/comments at all.
(now I am getting votes with the same percent again)
Just a few weeks ago someone else released a teddy bear backpack. Surprise. Not really, this has happened to me several times, I have an idea that is pretty unique, make it, get good votes, it fades away , someone else makes one and it gets votes right before an update and gets in game.
Now a few days ago another teddy backpack appears.
I did it a year ago and quite possibly gave other people the idea. Should mine not get in game while theirs do because the release is closer to update?
Or should the best get in because they are all being seen and voted on frequently, so if valve wants to add that item they now get a much better idea of which is most popular.
It still might not be mine but at least I'm not penalized for making it 'too early'.
Not saying all the changes were for the better, but I think the system is working the way Valve intended it too.
I have to agree with Baddcog here:
The new system doesn't show well what new items are popular.
But at the same time, it does let old items come up once again and,
as Baddcog mentioned, you are not penalized as much for submitting items too early.
(I was really stunned to see parts of my QoP set on the front page,
considering it got at most to the 3rd page on the day it was submitted).
What I find really good about this new system is that items don't remain forever
on the front page and change quite frequently. In the old system, even if the items
were absolutely amazing, I still kind of hated that it was always the same stuff on
the front page and not something I have not seen before.
And the votes/views graph lets you track the popularity of your items even if it
is a bit more cumbersome.
Oh wow I never noticed the button that gets you to that graph. Hmm whats a good percentage of positive votes to have? Mine is quite low, sitting on 58% positive
@Alismuffin It's kind-of a mixed bag now. A lot of newly submitted items will be getting around 50-50. As for a 'target' for percentage (over 50% positive I guess..?), but I'm not really sure if there is one. However, I now believe that getting a lot of traffic to the item/set page is most important (Even if people don't vote).
I agree with ChemicalAlia on this new state of the workshop. A change may have been needed, but it's total chaos right now.
Part of me wants to think it'll all even out given enough time, but it's showing no signs of it so far.
Before, there was a certain balance in the way things worked every week. It wasn't perfect, by any means, but I definitely preferred it to what we have currently.
I don't know how Valve picks and chooses, what stats they look at now, or how you would begin to get their attention with a set unless they're watching the workshop every day.
Before, you had a week to make an impact in the workshop. Not everyone made it to the front page, very few made it to the top spots, and it was anything but "fair". Now you have a single chaotic day, and then you're gone, which makes it incredibly difficult to develop a following, not to mention having a good chance of getting seen by many. That includes Valve, unless they're just looking at numbers now.
It really would help to have the "Most Popular this Week" back in addition to the day. A tab for "Most Popular this Month" would be good, too. I don't know why we lost the week, because the Custom Games section still has it... along with a ton of other options.
I agree with ChemicalAlia on this new state of the workshop. A change may have been needed, but it's total chaos right now.
Part of me wants to think it'll all even out given enough time, but it's showing no signs of it so far.
Before, there was a certain balance in the way things worked every week. It wasn't perfect, by any means, but I definitely preferred it to what we have currently.
I don't know how Valve picks and chooses, what stats they look at now, or how you would begin to get their attention with a set unless they're watching the workshop every day.
Before, you had a week to make an impact in the workshop. Not everyone made it to the front page, very few made it to the top spots, and it was anything but "fair". Now you have a single chaotic day, and then you're gone, which makes it incredibly difficult to develop a following, not to mention having a good chance of getting seen by many. That includes Valve, unless they're just looking at numbers now.
It really would help to have the "Most Popular this Week" back in addition to the day. A tab for "Most Popular this Month" would be good, too. I don't know why we lost the week, because the Custom Games section still has it... along with a ton of other options.
See the thing with the old system was it was super easy to fix, just condense everything. 30 slots on the front page is plenty for weekly popular as far as "quality content" reaching front page goes if everything is only 1 slot.
The new system doesn't really solve any of the important problems the old system had and makes a few new ones on top of it.
There are things I like about the new system, and stuff I liked about the old one. I preferred how the browse pages used to be generated on the old system for one, and seeing how many stars and ratings items got was very useful for seeing where my work stood relative to others. I'd very much like that back.
As for the new system I do really like the queue and the new set voting features. Both of these seem to greatly help exposure for sets that would otherwise get ignored in the old system from my experience. Especially sets from lesser known artists like myself.
Ultimately I think a preferable workshop would be a mix of what we have now and what we had then. Current set voting and queue with the old page ranking rules. Condensed sets in the item pages as always would be a plus.
I agree with snowstorm about the previous voting system reflecting on the quality of submission.
Currently, my newest item isn't really doing well. Since "No" and "Not Interested" are the same button, its hard to gauge whether somebody doesn't like the item or it isn't interesting to them. Valve could have easily have a separate "Not interested" button and they can judge the item demand solely on the percentage of positive votes. The "Not interested" would mainly be for the contributors.
The combination of the "No" and "Not Interested" isn't a good thing. It may more accurately represent the percentage of users who will actively seek out and buy that item, but it heavily favors the popular heroes. Will a pudge item get less downvotes than a chen item? How will that affect the visibility of the items? How does visibility affect your chance to get your item in game?
The "flash in a pan" type of attention that the new workshop seems to have makes it harder for you to gain followers too.
I'm still waiting to form my opinion, having not uploaded anything since the change. But like you guys, a mix of the old style and the new would be preferable
I really think this 'queue' system is great. Basically "here's a bunch of items for you to vote on". And its a mixed bag of quality, not just the most popular. I'm glad to see the time gone where a single set would get all the attention for a week or more, considering that items are uploaded daily.
But yes, like most have said, there still isn't much focus on the authors at all.
The 'follow author' button needs to be added on item/collection pages.
I've noticed this on the bottom of the item stats page
Some geospatial data on this website is provided by geonames.org.
Its probably been there since forever, but I realized it just now.
Anyways, do you guys think that incorporating the location of the votes would matter? I'd think it be of benefit to the contributors since we can see who likes what and infer what people like in different regions.
Anyways, do you guys think that incorporating the location of the votes would matter? I'd think it be of benefit to the contributors since we can see who likes what and infer what people like in different regions.
Would that encourage hatters to focus on what the more populous (in terms of votes on the Workshop) regions like though?
@Remixx
Not necessarily. It'll be up to the artist whether they choose to make something awesome or cater to other people. But the information basically shows which region cares about the item (If the information includes positive/negative votes). Knowing which regions give more votes can also vaguely show the consumer base of that item (Based on region). Its entirely possible that one region hates the item, but another loves the item. Also this information can lead to what heroes a certain region likes or dislikes.
Nobody is intererested in quality tournaments. Everyone is interested in hats. That's the market today. And we are forced to dance in this market. So, yes, next season there will be cool hats. Since noone gives a shit about the tournament itself.
Right now I feel like the current system does not support high level competitive play. There are too many tournaments so players cant try their best for most of them. There are too many games for the casters to cast so they dont try for most of them. And the viewers arent using their money to support high level dota but to buy item bundles.
The crazy thing to me is that tournament organizers and players both recognize that artists are an integral part of ticket sales and tournament success. So why is it common practice for artists to accept exploitive and heavy-handed cuts? These tournaments manage to get artists to pony up 50% of item profits while not sharing stream or sponsorship revenue. Does anyone think it's fair for DC to effectively earn 5 times the amount that any of the actual artists will get paid on chest sales alone? What about beyond the summit? Those guys didn't even have anything to do with the creation of their sets, and the creators had to take risks with creating the sets alone. It wasn't a collaborative effort, and yet the organizers treat it as it it were.
We have artists questioning the value in pairing up with a tournament while tournament organizers keep getting priority treatment for workshop matters (ie: communication, quality, etc). We have a situation where people from all facets of the esports scene involved (artists, players, organizers) are unhappy with how things are being handled, and not shockingly, we are all pretty much responsible for creating it.
Nine months ago, we voiced our concerns about communication and tournament/organization favoritism. Since then, things have only gotten worse. In general though, Valve seems pretty laissez faire about managing the dota scene, so maybe it's up to us to fix the problem.
Until V1lat's confirmation, it was just my pure speculation how important artists are. I thought people like Red Moon Studios would be able to negotiate favorable terms, considering the strength in their positions as talented and popular artists... And the fact that these percentages (50%) seem to be the standard just boggles my mind. Especially now that we KNOW that they need us.
(The first reddit post also contains some interesting discussion on artists and their relationship with tournaments and organizations, and I do suggest reading it.)
It wasn't a collaborative effort, and yet the organizers treat it as it it were.
They view it as they're selling the product. But they're are just the unnecessary middleman between Artist and Valve. All they have is a little bit more freedom in how they can sell their product, they use that for their cut.
Does anyone think it's fair for DC to effectively earn 5 times the amount that any of the actual artists will get paid on chest sales alone? What about beyond the summit? Those guys didn't even have anything to do with the creation of their sets, and the creators had to take risks with creating the sets alone.
This is one of the main reasons why I don't really understand why some artists actually work for tournaments. I understand if they want to help them out or get a free pass life before. But otherwise it just seems kind of silly to partner up with a tournament just for fun. (Basically there needs to be a reason to work with them.)
we are all pretty much responsible for creating it.
Actually I think it was more about the supply/demand. The Dota 2 community kind of snowballed while artists/tournaments couldn't keep up. When the first tournament had a bundle, basically ever other big tournament needed a bundle (to keep their viewers) Mainly because now the community is expecting a bundle with their ticket.
---
50% for their cut? Exactly what do they do? Is it that their ticket bundle would generate more revenue than chest? Or is it still the lenient submission. (3rd parties had lenient submissions, while solo had a higher bar to fulfill.
I also remember (vaguely) somebody posting on polycount that tournamnets should be getting 15-40% (I don't really remember the details but it definitely wasn't 50%)
In the end its all about how to get more money with less the effort.
They view it as they're selling the product. But they're are just the unnecessary middleman between Artist and Valve. All they have is a little bit more freedom in how they can sell their product, they use that for their cut.
But according to v1lat's statements, the artists are the ones selling THEIR products (tickets).
50% for their cut? Exactly what do they do? Is it that their ticket bundle would generate more revenue than chest? Or is it still the lenient submission. (3rd parties had lenient submissions, while solo had a higher bar to fulfill.
I also remember (vaguely) somebody posting on polycount that tournamnets should be getting 15-40% (I don't really remember the details but it definitely wasn't 50%)
Maybe someone else can chime in and confirm if working with tournaments (and getting that extra exposure/sales) actually pays off.
I got the 50% from motenai's post, and it is in line with what I've been told by 2 separate sources. If that's not typical, I'd be happy to be wrong!
Okay, so, Chemical and I work fulltime on the workshop, as do a lot of you. So obviously we're always trying to stay on top of trends and make sure we're not completely missing anything important.
Honestly, we've been on both sides of this discussion in the past. For a while, we observed that tournament things were the only items going into the game, which made us align with tournaments to pay the bills. This was a folly in my opinion, and something that we've since corrected. Making tournament items ONLY brings money and notoriety to the tournament, not for the artists. The tournaments don't realize the amount of work it takes to make a cosmetic set, and they overvalue their contribution or the benefit of their involvement. Personally, I won't do any more tournament work, and I actually wish everyone would stop. We give them the power in this, and they really don't give us anything in return. If there's too many items being bundled with too many tournaments, the best way to combat that is to cut it off at the source.
There's always exceptions to the rule, but we're not playing their game anymore. We have seen enough dirty tournament deals (btw, make sure they split the tournament ticket the exact same way as your item, if you INSIST on continuing making tournament crap), bungled PR and general "throw it over the fence" mentality to where I'd rather just work for ourselves. One of the perks of being a workshop developer is that you don't a boss. Why did everybody trade real bosses with real art experience for sheisty douchebags who want to steal your money from you?
As far as the new workshop organization is concerned, there's a lot of issues. The queue took the place of casual workshop browsing, but since it shows art from years ago along with new sets, it diffuses general interest in the workshop. We're seeing a huge drop in traffic from before, mainly because people don't think they need to go in and vote anymore, they think the art will be brought to them. But when it shows old art, I kinda just don't care, and every non artist I'm talking to says "oh man, the workshop? I haven't been there since it became confusing." The only person getting traffic now is the #1 of the week item STILL calculated and displayed next to dota in the game library.
I believe that we're seeing a transition from item based importance, to collection based importance. Collections are still showing what I think actually feels like a logical top 9 of the week, and showing those on the front page of the workshop might go a long way towards repairing the lack of casual workshop browsing. I always thought that having items featured so heavily was strange in a game economy focusing more and more on sets, so this feels like a natural transition, though very bumpy.
Artists give their art to 3rd parties, 3rd parties "sell" to Valve the art. In return, Valve adds the item and they essentially got your item ingame. Even though the bundles are what sell for tickets, the 3rd parties sell for "ingame". I think Valve put a higher standards on tournament items but it's still the same (just with a higher quality bar)
I always thought that having items featured so heavily was strange in a game economy focusing more and more on sets, so this feels like a natural transition, though very bumpy.
I could be wrong, but wasn't the workshop catered to singles before rather than sets?
As someone who's worked (and is currently working on) tournament bundled chests, I feel like I can speak to some of the reasons behind why you would choose to do something like this, the revenue share you drop, and how it feels to be on this end of the issue.
Like I've said before, I started doing the workshop thing in around March this year when the whole favoritism thing was going on. Immediately, it gave me the impression that the workshop is someplace a newcomer simply can't survive. To an extent, that's completely true, and continues to be the case.
Despite all that, I decided to go all in, full-time, push myself. I got lucky with the Enchantress set, and it was encouraging, because it was something I accomplished on my own.
Fast forward to late September, and I've made 6 more sets. One of them has done really well in the workshop, but Valve is showing no interest or plan as far as I know, to accept anything more of mine. This is normal for a lot of workshop artists... especially newcomers, where they feel like this probably isn't going to be worth it.
BTS contacts me about something they want to try that Valve has given them the go-ahead with. This is the important part. They've already talked to Valve, Valve's already said yes, the risk is minimal, even non-existent, and to the best of my knowledge, I'm failing miserably at this whole Workshop thing.
A lot of Workshop artists here are established, successful, experienced, and know what the lay of the land used to be. Success has given them the ability to know a good deal from a bad one, some pull to negotiate with, and I would assume the confidence to say "Hell no, I'll stand on my own."
When you have one (or no) sets in the game already, a 50% cut for up to 6, or what turned out to be three sets in one chest can look pretty damn good. Especially at the end of a year wherein you've accomplished very little while working overtime nearly every day.
Only a few days after BTS gets the results back from Valve, my Omniknight set is in the schema for the Test Client. It literally feels like they had no idea it was in the workshop this entire time, and was only made aware by this email.
Why do artists settle for a cut of the amount they deserve? In my case, it's because I haven't seen the greener pastures some people seem aware and fond of. I'm new to the Workshop, to all of this, and no one talks about what a fair deal constitutes, or what organizations have the power to do, not in public, and not with strangers. Not until it blows up like this.
Throughout the year, it's also been proven just how little power we Workshop artists actually wield in comparison to other contributors. Think about it...
We are the basic primary contributors to the Dota 2 economy, and have been since the beginning of the game, yet what is our level of communication with Valve? How can tournament organizers talk to Valve via email and conference calls, arrange to release an entire chest of cosmetics, choose, in large part, exactly what goes into this chest, and have it in the store a month later?
Meanwhile, we (by which I mean some workshop artists) get together in teams, produce entire chests worth of content, promote it as such in the workshop, gain immense popularity, and they tend to sit there in infinite limbo.
I guess it's stupid to think we'll ever have that kind of influence, too. It would lead to exactly the kind of favoritism everyone was afraid of earlier this year, but on a much larger scale.
So what we have is what people are referring to as "middlemen," the tournament organizers, who act as another link in a chain of diminishing returns that starts with Valve's 75% cut.
They now seem to act as a buffer for what Valve seems either incapable or uninterested in handling, which is the large volume of content produced too quickly by us. It's not something I wanted to see happen, because the Workshop was an idea that was extremely appealing in its intended form, but it's the direction Valve seems intent on taking it.
With all that's going on, between all the of complaint about the current state of things, it feels like the workshop artist community is splitting, and I'm being pushed to the "sell-out" side, a contributor to a problem that is entirely within our power to stop. It's not a comfortable place to be.
The crazy thing to me is that tournament organizers and players both recognize that artists are an integral part of ticket sales and tournament success. So why is it common practice for artists to accept exploitive and heavy-handed cuts? These tournaments manage to get artists to pony up 50% of item profits while not sharing stream or sponsorship revenue. Does anyone think it's fair for DC to effectively earn 5 times the amount that any of the actual artists will get paid on chest sales alone? What about beyond the summit? Those guys didn't even have anything to do with the creation of their sets, and the creators had to take risks with creating the sets alone. It wasn't a collaborative effort, and yet the organizers treat it as it it were.
We have artists questioning the value in pairing up with a tournament while tournament organizers keep getting priority treatment for workshop matters (ie: communication, quality, etc). We have a situation where people from all facets of the esports scene involved (artists, players, organizers) are unhappy with how things are being handled, and not shockingly, we are all pretty much responsible for creating it.
Nine months ago, we voiced our concerns about communication and tournament/organization favoritism. Since then, things have only gotten worse. In general though, Valve seems pretty laissez faire about managing the dota scene, so maybe it's up to us to fix the problem.
Until V1lat's confirmation, it was just my pure speculation how important artists are. I thought people like Red Moon Studios would be able to negotiate favorable terms, considering the strength in their positions as talented and popular artists... And the fact that these percentages (50%) seem to be the standard just boggles my mind. Especially now that we KNOW that they need us.
(The first reddit post also contains some interesting discussion on artists and their relationship with tournaments and organizations, and I do suggest reading it.)
Hello, I'd like to know where you get your information.
I feel that DotaCinema has a big bullseye on our back from the vocal minority. I have heard horror stories about other organizations that will remain nameless, but I don't know what else to say on our behalf other than we just don't operate that way.
The artists we use regularly (Drywall included) know that our collaboration ACTUALLY IS a collaboration.
And whether you believe me or not, artists that work with us actually make MORE money than they would have otherwise.
But for tournament tickets in particular, I can absolutely agree that it is usually a rip-off for artists. My goals for season 2 of our tournament were to make sure that the artists were taken care of. I mean, if you're in our shoes, why would we want to piss off the artists we work with all the time? The tournament-ticket system is a little wacky, but we found a way to make sure that everyone was rewarded for the work involved.
The question now is where do we go from here? Is the system we implemented from season 2 viable for other tournaments? I have no clue and only time will tell.
I'd like to finish this by saying that despite what I've been reading lately, DC is a pro-artist organization. It's always in our best interest to make sure our artists are happy. Feel free to ask any one of them. For the most part it seems we are grouped up in this "anti-organization" movement. I would just appreciate if you don't lump us in that group without any proof of wrongdoing.
I have no data and knowledge about DC hat sells so I will no comment on that. However there is one thing I really got impressed by. I saw some games casted by SUNSfan and he is actually talking a lot about cosmetics. Maybe it does not infuence anyone from us directly here, but I think in general that spreads interest in cosmetics. There was even funny situation when SUNSfan asked Pyrion which cosmetic in game is his favorite to get reply that Pyrion is actually dont have interest in hats. That was weird to me considering Pyrion Lich was uploaded to workshop recently Starladder crew based on latest info also treat cosmetics as something that just need to be added. I also saw many pros that play without any sets on their core heroes.
In general my point is that I would like to see more organizations and personalities actually apreciate cosmetics. Their interest influence interest of their followers and thus making demand for cosmetics a lot bigger.
Well DC, you aren't the one to blame imo. It is in the end, Valve's decision. You just happen to be the biggest community on the internet.
With that being said and you stating that your artists are highest paid, will Valve force us to run after organizations and beg them to collab with them?
How I see it there is one big problem with cosmetics and that is quality doesn't matter anymore. You can argue with me as much as you want but it is the plain truth. We see constantly work that is not by any means professional and sometimes even amateur getting approved and imported to the game. Constantly, over and over again, I witness items and sets created by non-professionals getting added. The problem here is that the masses (the average player) don't see the difference between a professional set and an amateur one. This is because their visual knowledge is far inferior to that of professional artists. Valve smartly uses this information so they can sell the not so pretty sets, too. There are tons of sets, that are clearly done in a way more professional manner, that are still waiting in the workshop, but the problem is only a handful of people can see that (mainly other artists).
Let's examine a scenario: You have 10 sets. 3 of them are extremely beautiful and well done, the other 7 vary from amateur to average. If you release the 3 beautiful you increase the visual level of the game - you are raising the bar. When you add the other 7 people will notice the difference and sales won't be as high. However, if you release the 7 first the mass audience can't feel the difference - they perceive the 7 average sets as beautiful. You get money from those, too. Then you add the other 3 beautiful sets and people buy those, too. It's actually a pretty simple concept. Based on the knowledge that the average person's visual culture is far inferior to the one of the artist for example.
What I dream of is Valve setting up a team of really top tier professional artists that manage the workshop - pages 1, 2 and 3. With an artist team responsible for the workshop there could be a lot more communication going on between Valve and the workshop artists who submit items. The main idea here is for them to be professional so they can give helpful feedback as well as sort out the professional work.
As for tickets/tournaments - yes, I do believe most organizations do not understand the amount of work it takes to create an item set. My words will just repeat what was said here already.
We are the basic primary contributors to the Dota 2 economy, and have been since the beginning of the game, yet what is our level of communication with Valve? How can tournament organizers talk to Valve via email and conference calls, arrange to release an entire chest of cosmetics, choose, in large part, exactly what goes into this chest, and have it in the store a month later?
Meanwhile, we (by which I mean some workshop artists) get together in teams, produce entire chests worth of content, promote it as such in the workshop, gain immense popularity, and they tend to sit there in infinite limbo.
I guess it's stupid to think we'll ever have that kind of influence, too. It would lead to exactly the kind of favoritism everyone was afraid of earlier this year, but on a much larger scale.
So what we have is what people are referring to as "middlemen," the tournament organizers, who act as another link in a chain of diminishing returns that starts with Valve's 75% cut.
They now seem to act as a buffer for what Valve seems either incapable or uninterested in handling, which is the large volume of content produced too quickly by us. It's not something I wanted to see happen, because the Workshop was an idea that was extremely appealing in its intended form, but it's the direction Valve seems intent on taking it.
This is perfectly worded and all around correct. The only serious contributor-level communication we had with Valve was about breaking up tiny and timbersaw, but that's pretty much it.
Seeing how handling of the workshop basically goes from hands to hands it's breaking up the pace we at least established not too long ago.
At least i hope new rules will allow Valve to cover more workshop ground and the range of sets accepted will increase, but this matter still needs to be brought up.
Okay, so, Chemical and I work fulltime on the workshop, as do a lot of you. So obviously we're always trying to stay on top of trends and make sure we're not completely missing anything important.
Honestly, we've been on both sides of this discussion in the past. For a while, we observed that tournament things were the only items going into the game, which made us align with tournaments to pay the bills. This was a folly in my opinion, and something that we've since corrected. Making tournament items ONLY brings money and notoriety to the tournament, not for the artists. The tournaments don't realize the amount of work it takes to make a cosmetic set, and they overvalue their contribution or the benefit of their involvement. Personally, I won't do any more tournament work, and I actually wish everyone would stop. We give them the power in this, and they really don't give us anything in return. If there's too many items being bundled with too many tournaments, the best way to combat that is to cut it off at the source.
There's always exceptions to the rule, but we're not playing their game anymore. We have seen enough dirty tournament deals (btw, make sure they split the tournament ticket the exact same way as your item, if you INSIST on continuing making tournament crap), bungled PR and general "throw it over the fence" mentality to where I'd rather just work for ourselves. One of the perks of being a workshop developer is that you don't a boss. Why did everybody trade real bosses with real art experience for sheisty douchebags who want to steal your money from you?
The lamest ones are when you're given for example a week to bring out fully designed set for a hero, just so it can heavily flunk and have Valve say ''no'' because it's rushed and not well done. I don't have anything against well established collaboration where there's limit set up for yes's and no's. (if I can put it that way)
But yeah, generally speaking, worst of it is that you as artist are giving up your name and skill in the place of the bigger organization. It's even more saddening when you get completely forgotten in the whole process. At first you might think it's some kind of honor working for something huge, but in the end you realize you're a pawn in a game of monopoly. And nothing more. I guess this is my ''welcome to the real world son''.
Hello, I'd like to know where you get your information.
I feel that DotaCinema has a big bullseye on our back from the vocal minority. I have heard horror stories about other organizations that will remain nameless, but I don't know what else to say on our behalf other than we just don't operate that way.
The artists we use regularly (Drywall included) know that our collaboration ACTUALLY IS a collaboration.
And whether you believe me or not, artists that work with us actually make MORE money than they would have otherwise.
But for tournament tickets in particular, I can absolutely agree that it is usually a rip-off for artists. My goals for season 2 of our tournament were to make sure that the artists were taken care of. I mean, if you're in our shoes, why would we want to piss off the artists we work with all the time? The tournament-ticket system is a little wacky, but we found a way to make sure that everyone was rewarded for the work involved.
The question now is where do we go from here? Is the system we implemented from season 2 viable for other tournaments? I have no clue and only time will tell.
I'd like to finish this by saying that despite what I've been reading lately, DC is a pro-artist organization. It's always in our best interest to make sure our artists are happy. Feel free to ask any one of them. For the most part it seems we are grouped up in this "anti-organization" movement. I would just appreciate if you don't lump us in that group without any proof of wrongdoing.
Worked with DC before, will work with DC again. They definitely don't take advantage of artists. Just throwin that in there.
First off, I won't be naming my sources. If they want to share their experience, good or bad, they can do so themselves. And if they feel hesitant to do so, then that's exactly why I suggested a private forum; this forum isn't a safe space for artists to discuss matters free of repercussions. For the 50% number, I referenced motenai's post, as well as 2 other artists. And I was able to figure out that BTS had nothing to do with their sets because they were all released independently on the workshop months before they were re-released with new percentages.
Your concerns about being targeted by a minority of artists are misguided. The majority of artists here in this thread dislike the favoritism that is shown to tournaments and organizations. DotaCinema is a prominent example of workshop favoritism. You're the only organization that has been allowed to break the rules, and you have an inside track of communication with valve. Proof of wrongdoing is not the same as proof of injustice.
I want to also note that I have also referenced BeyondtheSummit and StarLadder here. I'm not singling you out. DotaCinema still serves as a clear and undeniable referece for workshop favoritism.
The tournaments don't realize the amount of work it takes to make a cosmetic set, and they overvalue their contribution or the benefit of their involvement.
I have a feeling there are a lot of "idea guys" out there.
And whether you believe me or not, artists that work with us actually make MORE money than they would have otherwise.
No offense, but this would mean more if it came from an artist (with a track record for quality) than from the person it directly benefits. And you'd still have to factor in the bit where DC gets all their bells and whistles imported in game, while other artists are being told the particle pipeline is being reworked.
Ultimately, the point i was trying to make with my original post wasn't about dotacinema or beyondthesummit (and it's a little irritating how one sentence can derail the entire point). What I was trying to get across in my post is that artists are an important part of the tournament process, and that fact is now being publicly recognized across multiple sides of the community. I personally feel that recognition is not properly appreciated with a workcut of 50%, and artists should do something to change that.
In general my point is that I would like to see more organizations and personalities actually apreciate cosmetics. Their interest influence interest of their followers and thus making demand for cosmetics a lot bigger.
That would be nice. Even something as simple as a shoutout would be pretty cool to see. Zyori talks about cosmetics fairly often too.
Actually, if ALL artists refuse tournaments, the tournaments/organizations will be forced to release their tickets naked. But I don't think that's the way to go.
1: In regards to favoritism: Valve wants to make money. DC is bankable. Period. If you are referring to the incident with the XMG ticket and bypassing the workshop- Ya that was bullshit, and everyone knows it, but thats not DC. That was straight up valve. Sunsfan can share if he wants, but from my understanding all of that was a result of valve shitting the bed.
2: Here it is coming from the artist: I made more with DC than without.Plain and simple. Which is why, as I said before, I will work with them again. Not likely on a ticket tho, as tickets are still bullshit all around until valve takes the time to ensure that the rev split goes in favor of the artist after the tournament is over. Doesnt make much sense to give half to a ticket provider when a ticket is expired.
3: To DNAdota- Its not too much if they more than double your sales. They more than double your sales.
And no where have I blamed DotaCinema for that. It's been mentioned that the problem is with Valve. Discussing DotaCinema and favoritism in the same breath isn't blaming them, it's citing them.
2: Here it is coming from the artist: I made more with DC than without.Plain and simple. Which is why, as I said before, I will work with them again. Not likely on a ticket tho, as tickets are still bullshit all around until valve takes the time to ensure that the rev split goes in favor of the artist after the tournament is over. Doesnt make much sense to give half to a ticket provider when a ticket is expired.
3: To DNAdota- Its not too much if they more than double your sales. They more than double your sales.
Thanks for this post. This is definitely some interesting insight.
i may still be not the same level as u guys, so my point of view might be different from urs, just wanted to point that out before i start.
my way so far is that i work on workshop stuff since over a year. i have been working like a fucking maniac. up to 16hours a day. day by day. everyday. project by project i slowly kept getting a little better - and out of shitloads of single items and many sets, i got 1 set accepted by valve over the whole time, just had luck with that one. additional to that i had a deal with a rly small amateur tourney that bundled 2 of my wards with their tickets (i ended up earning 400dollar for each of them, more or less a joke). but since i loved those wards and wanted to see them ingame (valve didnt show interesst in them at all for a long time) im not crying about it, but being happy and proud about my selfmades.
right at the moment i see such brands like dc and other organisations and tourneys becoming so big that valve is adding their stuff nearly every patch and the original valve chests are getting more rare. nobody of that big brands ever contacted me or asked me for anything. maybe its because as i mentioned earlier i am too new. whatever. but it gives me the feeling that if i dont team up with anybody i will not get anything more ingame in future.
nobody can live from nothing.
the allover situation would also not bother me that much if i would see rly great items to go in, but (sry if i attack anyone of u now - its nothing personal so) very often i see stuff getting in without beeing in the workshop before, having blured textured and wrong faced normals ingame - or just look bored and hasted. and that makes me sad, and i guess some other artists also feel the same way. just a little insight of how i feel on the current situation of dota cosmetics.
and last point: i hate that new workshop, i think its just a total bullshit that u can not browse the best voted items per hero anymore. it makes it SO hard to find specific entrys. and loosing the star system even annoys me too because it was at least a little indicator of how much people like ur work. and u could compare with others, now there is nothing.
2: Here it is coming from the artist: I made more with DC than without.Plain and simple. Which is why, as I said before, I will work with them again. Not likely on a ticket tho, as tickets are still bullshit all around until valve takes the time to ensure that the rev split goes in favor of the artist after the tournament is over. Doesnt make much sense to give half to a ticket provider when a ticket is expired.
Well since DC is an organization it has its followers, some followers will support their organization and basically any artist that works with them will also get a cut. Once you attach a name to the set, people will buy it.
3: To DNAdota- Its not too much if they more than double your sales. They more than double your sales.
There is no guarantee in doubling one's sale though. Even if they can double your sales, they're still basically getting free money by adding their name to it.
--
I personally think all items should be judged "artistically" rather than who's behind the item. Items should speak for itself.
Well since DC is an organization it has its followers, some followers will support their organization and basically any artist that works with them will also get a cut. Once you attach a name to the set, people will buy it.
There is no guarantee in doubling one's sale though. Even if they can double your sales, they're still basically getting free money by adding their name to it.
--
I personally think all items should be judged "artistically" rather than who's behind the item. Items should speak for itself.
Well see, there is no guarantee (but pretty close), but they are definitely NOT getting free money. You know why they have so much power to push an item? Because they have 1.1 Million followers. Don't tell me you think that shit just happened... I gave them 50% of my cut to make videos every goddamn day so they could maintain a captive audience that would then be subjected to seeing my set on every other video they watched.
And items are still judged artistically, even DC has rejected items (from an established artist, no less).
Where the issue comes up is when an organization thinks they are anywhere near that level and demand 50% as well and don't do jack shit to promote it. Many organizations aren't worth their salt, and I feel that when speaking of the majority of artists' collective dissent to the bullshit going on with organizations and the workshop, DC gets lumped in with others than genuinely deserve a raised eyebrow, even if they don't (and they don't) deserve it themselves. I think the overall low quality of tournament and organization bundles is a symptom of this. Artists can see its a raw deal, so the ones that really don't need any help in getting things in pass on any deal and the lower quality stuff gets in. Now that's on artists. If you feel like you are getting a raw deal with a tournament, don't take the deal. If you are compelled to do it because you are worried about not getting accepted otherwise, then its on you to put more time into making your set worth getting accepted.
Well see, there is no guarantee (but pretty close), but they are definitely NOT getting free money. You know why they have so much power to push an item? Because they have 1.1 Million followers. Don't tell me you think that shit just happened... I gave them 50% of my cut to make videos every goddamn day so they could maintain a captive audience that would then be subjected to seeing my set on every other video they watched.
And items are still judged artistically, even DC has rejected items (from an established artist, no less).
Where the issue comes up is when an organization thinks they are anywhere near that level and demand 50% as well and don't do jack shit to promote it. Many organizations aren't worth their salt, and I feel that when speaking of the majority of artists' collective dissent to the bullshit going on with organizations and the workshop, DC gets lumped in with others than genuinely deserve a raised eyebrow, even if they don't (and they don't) deserve it themselves. I think the overall low quality of tournament and organization bundles is a symptom of this. Artists can see its a raw deal, so the ones that really don't need any help in getting things in pass on any deal and the lower quality stuff gets in. Now that's on artists. If you feel like you are getting a raw deal with a tournament, don't take the deal. If you are compelled to do it because you are worried about not getting accepted otherwise, then its on you to put more time into making your set worth getting accepted.
There is no argue that DC were working like madmen to be where they are right now. Few people know how much work's going in in managing a channel like theirs. But I don't think DC have the eye of a professional artist. I don't think they can tell the difference between Monet and Degas else than one is drawing nature. I don't think DC knows that their Centaur axe has no texture whatsoever. However, I do think they have the eye of the average player which Valve is after.
right at the moment i see such brands like dc and other organisations and tourneys becoming so big that valve is adding their stuff nearly every patch and the original valve chests are getting more rare. nobody of that big brands ever contacted me or asked me for anything.
This brings up an interesting point to me. When the third party organizations are getting this amount of control and power over the workshop, they can essentially 'filter out' the artists they want to see succeed or not, and you can very easily see favoritism (if not from valve) in their selections.
There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with this, it's completely up to the organization to pick who they are comfortable working with. However.. it becomes a big ugly issue when we start having a situation like the workshop today when a majority of the items are coming from said orgs as opposed to Valve who might (ideally) be much more objective about their choices, picking sets on a case by case basis, and being a lot more inclusive in their selections.
@DNAdota- Yea, but back then i wasn't even remotely good .
You know why they have so much power to push an item? Because they have 1.1 Million followers. Don't tell me you think that shit just happened... I gave them 50% of my cut to make videos every goddamn day so they could maintain a captive audience that would then be subjected to seeing my set on every other video they watched.
I understand that, but now they don't have to do anything extra but just endorse item. All they need to do is endorse an item and reap from the revenue. Whether you decided to work with them or not affect their current plans, only their future goals (i.e, chests). Anyways items are only a bonus for them. They build that empire themselves, they don't need the artists to continue the path they've build.
So exactly what is the 50% cut? Advertising? Do they need that 50% cut when they already have their audience? Did they contribute at all to the product? If they did, then they should get a cut.
I'm not saying that artists should or should not give 50% to them. Any percentage should be because the artist wants to contribute to that organization.
I'm not condemning DC for their fanbase, I was using them as an example of endorsement. If they actually contributed to the product, so be it.
Many organizations aren't worth their salt, and I feel that when speaking of the majority of artists' collective dissent to the bullshit going on with organizations and the workshop, DC gets lumped in with others than genuinely deserve a raised eyebrow, even if they don't (and they don't) deserve it themselves. I think the overall low quality of tournament and organization bundles is a symptom of this.
And no where have I blamed DotaCinema for that. It's been mentioned that the problem is with Valve. Discussing DotaCinema and favoritism in the same breath isn't blaming them, it's citing them.
Teabisuit wasn't saying that DC was bad.
DC wasn't just lumped in with the bad crowd due to exploitation, they were lumped in was because they are also a 3rd party organization that ships items.
And items are still judged artistically, even DC has rejected items (from an established artist, no less).
You may not know it, but a couple years ago when the first tournament ticket bundles were sold, many items basically "bypassed" the standard quality bar and got shipped in game. Even though there were better items in the workshop. Why did those items get ingame? Its because those items had a name attached to it (3rd party). Even though Valve has gotten stricter on 3rd parties they are still more lenient to 3rd parties than regular workshoppers since they already have a lot of potential customers.
You know why they have so much power to push an item?
The push isn't a problem, its the fact when an organization has too much power, they can get horribly-made items into the game just because Valve can make a lot of money off of it. A little push can be fine. It became a problem when good items got stuck in limbo while lesser items were imported due to being endorsed by a 3rd party. (even if the item was low quality)
This brings up an interesting point to me. When the third party organizations are getting this amount of control and power over the workshop, they can essentially 'filter out' the artists they want to see succeed or not, and you can very easily see favoritism (if not from valve) in their selections. There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with this, it's completely up to the organization to pick who they are comfortable working with. However.. it becomes a big ugly issue when we start having a situation like the workshop today when a majority of the items are coming from said orgs, as opposed to Valve who might (ideally) be much more objective about their choices, picking sets on a case by case basis, and being a lot more inclusive in their selections.
I agree with this. I think artists should have the priority because they are the provider of items.
This brings up an interesting point to me. When the third party organizations are getting this amount of control and power over the workshop, they can essentially 'filter out' the artists they want to see succeed or not, and you can very easily see favoritism (if not from valve) in their selections.
There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with this, it's completely up to the organization to pick who they are comfortable working with. However.. it becomes a big ugly issue when we start having a situation like the workshop today when a majority of the items are coming from said orgs as opposed to Valve who might (ideally) be much more objective about their choices, picking sets on a case by case basis, and being a lot more inclusive in their selections.
Wanted to say this but couldn't word it properly so didn't. So yeah, this is what will happen even more and more as time goes on.
For the record, I recall a discussion happening right here about organizations taking over the workshop due to them having a lot of followers. It seems it went beyond getting votes.
Replies
There are flaws from watching the tf2 workshop imo though.
'top rated' for today is misleading. It counts up and down votes. So if something gets 300 down votes it could be 'most popular' for today. Which probably leads to more down votes.
The good thing is that people are voting on old stuff. So the best of the best will be going up no matter how old. And the worst will be going down.
The misleading part is only the author can see the popularity of their items. You really can't see anymore what the most popular items are. But I guess Valve can and that's what matters. And this system seems to be helping that a lot.
I have old items that were popular (and some that are not) and now they are getting voted on again either way.
So it's no longer who can put out the best items this week, but overall. That's good because there are a lot of really good old items that just seemed to get lost before.
basically what I'm trying to say is, even if there are lots of great things, it feels like awesome submissions far outpace valve's current rate of acceptance. Of course, this can always change in the future, who knows if they will dump like 30 sets at once or something to 'catch up' (or even singles would be nice!). I just really hope that people aren't forced to partner up with tournaments for the only chance to see their stuff in within 8 months/ever. With more stuff available I'm sure Valve still wants to keep up some seblance of value for sets too, and that must be really difficult for them considering the overwhelming flow of great content submitted.
What do you guys feel is the best course of action going forward if the current trend sticks? (Valve being valve, I'm pretty sure it will continue to change indefinitely, but I find it really interesting to think about)
personally I'm thinking of just submitting far less stuff, but spending more time on making sure the design/result is as good as I am capable. It's tough for me because I love doing this but it's discouraging seeing tournaments getting priority over artists, instead of even just doing half/half. and yes I know I ramble. Apologies! I think about this shit way too much, hehe.
tacos!!
There could be some kind of system to match up already existing-yet-not added Workshop content with tournament organizers who are seeking stuff. That way instead of flooding things constantly some of the already existing content could get utilized. But that'd take more work on the organizers part. Which is why I kind of doubt it would ever happen. (Not flaming them I just doubt they have the time to become part of an approval system, even for their own tournament/chest/etc)
Either way Workshop with only Dota 2 as a job was feasible to me like a year ago, but now it feels less likely to be the case unless Valve changes things a bit. We got a new bloom event coming up which is good, problem being events like that, especially when they aren't very often as far as Workshoppers all participating in one thing, have so much competition that it isn't consistent for anyone involved. If Valve did events more often, like every few months, that would probably help balance how often community-specific content gets in over sponsored stuff, because essentially at that point its "Valve"-sponsored, since that is who we are catering to.
So there are routes to get things to work. And I imagine with the overall outlook people in this thread seem to have Valve needs to do something, its just a matter of how long it will take them to (hopefully) listen and make it a better environment for everyone.
Really? I am consistently seeing (in general) worse quality submissions on the main items page than before the changes were implemented, and much more randomness due to the 1-2 day cutoff for visibility.
Getting more comments on certain old submissions than anything I've released since the workshop changes is not a good sign to me, and certainly doesn't provide me anything helpful. I would much prefer to have more eyes on my new work than what has already gone through the cycle. Besides, there was always a "most popular all time" tab, nothing seemed in dire need of fixing or changing.
That's actually less information for the artist, no benefit there. I used to pay close attention to the ratings of new submissions every week; it was a decent way to judge the community's response to new ideas/trends in a workshop whose community is always changing and evolving. I'm feeling much less in-tune with what's currently being produced in the artist community now than in any point in the past (and I've been around since the dawn of all workshops), and I'm not very pleased about it.
Of course I'm willing to make due, but if I were to wake up tomorrow and the old system was magically back in place, I would shed a single tear of joy. Actually, two, one for each eye.
It is very hard to get a feel of how well my item is doing, and why it may not be doing well also.
I guess it's just too big of an ocean out there now?
I completely agree with this!
I did a lot of TF2 stuff and it would be popular for awhile and fade into obscurity. I think some of my older items were still my best ideas/work (stuff last year). It's good to see it getting some attention again, there are still a few items I want in game that I think fit well and would do very good in the store.
I don't want to think of that stuff as a waste of time just because I made it awhile back.
One thing though, while I have been getting a lot more ratings on stuff recently, I am probably getting fewer comments. But that's OK because comments were usually 'add it now' or stick figure bob spam.
It might be less info as to how popular it is overall, but they added and graph line for total votes/down votes so you can judge the popularity better.
I do miss the 'most popular all time/weekly/3 months', like I said the new most popular today is misleading now because it's good and bad votes together.
The new system is also better for artists like me with fewer items. I'm sure you (Chemical Alia)(tf2 and dota accepted right?) have a larger following and that alone helps gets more votes/push to front page to get even more votes.
But that's also what would bury a lot of other/older work quickly.
As far as TF2, another benefit imo is the best items no matter the age will rise to top.
exp:
I made a tf2 'backpack' teddybear. Before xmas last year I got a lot of popular votes. I had like a 95% approval. Then they only put in like 10 xmas items and eventually for months I didn't get any votes/comments at all.
(now I am getting votes with the same percent again)
Just a few weeks ago someone else released a teddy bear backpack. Surprise. Not really, this has happened to me several times, I have an idea that is pretty unique, make it, get good votes, it fades away , someone else makes one and it gets votes right before an update and gets in game.
Now a few days ago another teddy backpack appears.
I did it a year ago and quite possibly gave other people the idea. Should mine not get in game while theirs do because the release is closer to update?
Or should the best get in because they are all being seen and voted on frequently, so if valve wants to add that item they now get a much better idea of which is most popular.
It still might not be mine but at least I'm not penalized for making it 'too early'.
Not saying all the changes were for the better, but I think the system is working the way Valve intended it too.
The new system doesn't show well what new items are popular.
But at the same time, it does let old items come up once again and,
as Baddcog mentioned, you are not penalized as much for submitting items too early.
(I was really stunned to see parts of my QoP set on the front page,
considering it got at most to the 3rd page on the day it was submitted).
What I find really good about this new system is that items don't remain forever
on the front page and change quite frequently. In the old system, even if the items
were absolutely amazing, I still kind of hated that it was always the same stuff on
the front page and not something I have not seen before.
And the votes/views graph lets you track the popularity of your items even if it
is a bit more cumbersome.
Thanks for that insight
Part of me wants to think it'll all even out given enough time, but it's showing no signs of it so far.
Before, there was a certain balance in the way things worked every week. It wasn't perfect, by any means, but I definitely preferred it to what we have currently.
I don't know how Valve picks and chooses, what stats they look at now, or how you would begin to get their attention with a set unless they're watching the workshop every day.
Before, you had a week to make an impact in the workshop. Not everyone made it to the front page, very few made it to the top spots, and it was anything but "fair". Now you have a single chaotic day, and then you're gone, which makes it incredibly difficult to develop a following, not to mention having a good chance of getting seen by many. That includes Valve, unless they're just looking at numbers now.
It really would help to have the "Most Popular this Week" back in addition to the day. A tab for "Most Popular this Month" would be good, too. I don't know why we lost the week, because the Custom Games section still has it... along with a ton of other options.
See the thing with the old system was it was super easy to fix, just condense everything. 30 slots on the front page is plenty for weekly popular as far as "quality content" reaching front page goes if everything is only 1 slot.
The new system doesn't really solve any of the important problems the old system had and makes a few new ones on top of it.
As for the new system I do really like the queue and the new set voting features. Both of these seem to greatly help exposure for sets that would otherwise get ignored in the old system from my experience. Especially sets from lesser known artists like myself.
Ultimately I think a preferable workshop would be a mix of what we have now and what we had then. Current set voting and queue with the old page ranking rules. Condensed sets in the item pages as always would be a plus.
Currently, my newest item isn't really doing well. Since "No" and "Not Interested" are the same button, its hard to gauge whether somebody doesn't like the item or it isn't interesting to them. Valve could have easily have a separate "Not interested" button and they can judge the item demand solely on the percentage of positive votes. The "Not interested" would mainly be for the contributors.
The "flash in a pan" type of attention that the new workshop seems to have makes it harder for you to gain followers too.
I'm still waiting to form my opinion, having not uploaded anything since the change. But like you guys, a mix of the old style and the new would be preferable
But yes, like most have said, there still isn't much focus on the authors at all.
The 'follow author' button needs to be added on item/collection pages.
Its probably been there since forever, but I realized it just now.
Anyways, do you guys think that incorporating the location of the votes would matter? I'd think it be of benefit to the contributors since we can see who likes what and infer what people like in different regions.
Would that encourage hatters to focus on what the more populous (in terms of votes on the Workshop) regions like though?
Not necessarily. It'll be up to the artist whether they choose to make something awesome or cater to other people. But the information basically shows which region cares about the item (If the information includes positive/negative votes). Knowing which regions give more votes can also vaguely show the consumer base of that item (Based on region). Its entirely possible that one region hates the item, but another loves the item. Also this information can lead to what heroes a certain region likes or dislikes.
http://www.liquiddota.com/blogs/473477-my-perspective-on-%EF%BC%A4%EF%BD%8F%EF%BD%94%EF%BC%A1%EF%BC%92
The crazy thing to me is that tournament organizers and players both recognize that artists are an integral part of ticket sales and tournament success. So why is it common practice for artists to accept exploitive and heavy-handed cuts? These tournaments manage to get artists to pony up 50% of item profits while not sharing stream or sponsorship revenue. Does anyone think it's fair for DC to effectively earn 5 times the amount that any of the actual artists will get paid on chest sales alone? What about beyond the summit? Those guys didn't even have anything to do with the creation of their sets, and the creators had to take risks with creating the sets alone. It wasn't a collaborative effort, and yet the organizers treat it as it it were.
We have artists questioning the value in pairing up with a tournament while tournament organizers keep getting priority treatment for workshop matters (ie: communication, quality, etc). We have a situation where people from all facets of the esports scene involved (artists, players, organizers) are unhappy with how things are being handled, and not shockingly, we are all pretty much responsible for creating it.
Nine months ago, we voiced our concerns about communication and tournament/organization favoritism. Since then, things have only gotten worse. In general though, Valve seems pretty laissez faire about managing the dota scene, so maybe it's up to us to fix the problem.
Until V1lat's confirmation, it was just my pure speculation how important artists are. I thought people like Red Moon Studios would be able to negotiate favorable terms, considering the strength in their positions as talented and popular artists... And the fact that these percentages (50%) seem to be the standard just boggles my mind. Especially now that we KNOW that they need us.
(The first reddit post also contains some interesting discussion on artists and their relationship with tournaments and organizations, and I do suggest reading it.)
They view it as they're selling the product. But they're are just the unnecessary middleman between Artist and Valve. All they have is a little bit more freedom in how they can sell their product, they use that for their cut.
This is one of the main reasons why I don't really understand why some artists actually work for tournaments. I understand if they want to help them out or get a free pass life before. But otherwise it just seems kind of silly to partner up with a tournament just for fun. (Basically there needs to be a reason to work with them.)
Actually I think it was more about the supply/demand. The Dota 2 community kind of snowballed while artists/tournaments couldn't keep up. When the first tournament had a bundle, basically ever other big tournament needed a bundle (to keep their viewers) Mainly because now the community is expecting a bundle with their ticket.
---
50% for their cut? Exactly what do they do? Is it that their ticket bundle would generate more revenue than chest? Or is it still the lenient submission. (3rd parties had lenient submissions, while solo had a higher bar to fulfill.
I also remember (vaguely) somebody posting on polycount that tournamnets should be getting 15-40% (I don't really remember the details but it definitely wasn't 50%)
In the end its all about how to get more money with less the effort.
But according to v1lat's statements, the artists are the ones selling THEIR products (tickets).
Maybe someone else can chime in and confirm if working with tournaments (and getting that extra exposure/sales) actually pays off.
I got the 50% from motenai's post, and it is in line with what I've been told by 2 separate sources. If that's not typical, I'd be happy to be wrong!
Thank you for your thoughtful contribution.
Honestly, we've been on both sides of this discussion in the past. For a while, we observed that tournament things were the only items going into the game, which made us align with tournaments to pay the bills. This was a folly in my opinion, and something that we've since corrected. Making tournament items ONLY brings money and notoriety to the tournament, not for the artists. The tournaments don't realize the amount of work it takes to make a cosmetic set, and they overvalue their contribution or the benefit of their involvement. Personally, I won't do any more tournament work, and I actually wish everyone would stop. We give them the power in this, and they really don't give us anything in return. If there's too many items being bundled with too many tournaments, the best way to combat that is to cut it off at the source.
There's always exceptions to the rule, but we're not playing their game anymore. We have seen enough dirty tournament deals (btw, make sure they split the tournament ticket the exact same way as your item, if you INSIST on continuing making tournament crap), bungled PR and general "throw it over the fence" mentality to where I'd rather just work for ourselves. One of the perks of being a workshop developer is that you don't a boss. Why did everybody trade real bosses with real art experience for sheisty douchebags who want to steal your money from you?
As far as the new workshop organization is concerned, there's a lot of issues. The queue took the place of casual workshop browsing, but since it shows art from years ago along with new sets, it diffuses general interest in the workshop. We're seeing a huge drop in traffic from before, mainly because people don't think they need to go in and vote anymore, they think the art will be brought to them. But when it shows old art, I kinda just don't care, and every non artist I'm talking to says "oh man, the workshop? I haven't been there since it became confusing." The only person getting traffic now is the #1 of the week item STILL calculated and displayed next to dota in the game library.
I believe that we're seeing a transition from item based importance, to collection based importance. Collections are still showing what I think actually feels like a logical top 9 of the week, and showing those on the front page of the workshop might go a long way towards repairing the lack of casual workshop browsing. I always thought that having items featured so heavily was strange in a game economy focusing more and more on sets, so this feels like a natural transition, though very bumpy.
+1
Artists give their art to 3rd parties, 3rd parties "sell" to Valve the art. In return, Valve adds the item and they essentially got your item ingame. Even though the bundles are what sell for tickets, the 3rd parties sell for "ingame". I think Valve put a higher standards on tournament items but it's still the same (just with a higher quality bar)
I could be wrong, but wasn't the workshop catered to singles before rather than sets?
Like I've said before, I started doing the workshop thing in around March this year when the whole favoritism thing was going on. Immediately, it gave me the impression that the workshop is someplace a newcomer simply can't survive. To an extent, that's completely true, and continues to be the case.
Despite all that, I decided to go all in, full-time, push myself. I got lucky with the Enchantress set, and it was encouraging, because it was something I accomplished on my own.
Fast forward to late September, and I've made 6 more sets. One of them has done really well in the workshop, but Valve is showing no interest or plan as far as I know, to accept anything more of mine. This is normal for a lot of workshop artists... especially newcomers, where they feel like this probably isn't going to be worth it.
BTS contacts me about something they want to try that Valve has given them the go-ahead with. This is the important part. They've already talked to Valve, Valve's already said yes, the risk is minimal, even non-existent, and to the best of my knowledge, I'm failing miserably at this whole Workshop thing.
A lot of Workshop artists here are established, successful, experienced, and know what the lay of the land used to be. Success has given them the ability to know a good deal from a bad one, some pull to negotiate with, and I would assume the confidence to say "Hell no, I'll stand on my own."
When you have one (or no) sets in the game already, a 50% cut for up to 6, or what turned out to be three sets in one chest can look pretty damn good. Especially at the end of a year wherein you've accomplished very little while working overtime nearly every day.
Only a few days after BTS gets the results back from Valve, my Omniknight set is in the schema for the Test Client. It literally feels like they had no idea it was in the workshop this entire time, and was only made aware by this email.
Why do artists settle for a cut of the amount they deserve? In my case, it's because I haven't seen the greener pastures some people seem aware and fond of. I'm new to the Workshop, to all of this, and no one talks about what a fair deal constitutes, or what organizations have the power to do, not in public, and not with strangers. Not until it blows up like this.
Throughout the year, it's also been proven just how little power we Workshop artists actually wield in comparison to other contributors. Think about it...
We are the basic primary contributors to the Dota 2 economy, and have been since the beginning of the game, yet what is our level of communication with Valve? How can tournament organizers talk to Valve via email and conference calls, arrange to release an entire chest of cosmetics, choose, in large part, exactly what goes into this chest, and have it in the store a month later?
Meanwhile, we (by which I mean some workshop artists) get together in teams, produce entire chests worth of content, promote it as such in the workshop, gain immense popularity, and they tend to sit there in infinite limbo.
I guess it's stupid to think we'll ever have that kind of influence, too. It would lead to exactly the kind of favoritism everyone was afraid of earlier this year, but on a much larger scale.
So what we have is what people are referring to as "middlemen," the tournament organizers, who act as another link in a chain of diminishing returns that starts with Valve's 75% cut.
They now seem to act as a buffer for what Valve seems either incapable or uninterested in handling, which is the large volume of content produced too quickly by us. It's not something I wanted to see happen, because the Workshop was an idea that was extremely appealing in its intended form, but it's the direction Valve seems intent on taking it.
With all that's going on, between all the of complaint about the current state of things, it feels like the workshop artist community is splitting, and I'm being pushed to the "sell-out" side, a contributor to a problem that is entirely within our power to stop. It's not a comfortable place to be.
Hello, I'd like to know where you get your information.
I feel that DotaCinema has a big bullseye on our back from the vocal minority. I have heard horror stories about other organizations that will remain nameless, but I don't know what else to say on our behalf other than we just don't operate that way.
The artists we use regularly (Drywall included) know that our collaboration ACTUALLY IS a collaboration.
And whether you believe me or not, artists that work with us actually make MORE money than they would have otherwise.
But for tournament tickets in particular, I can absolutely agree that it is usually a rip-off for artists. My goals for season 2 of our tournament were to make sure that the artists were taken care of. I mean, if you're in our shoes, why would we want to piss off the artists we work with all the time? The tournament-ticket system is a little wacky, but we found a way to make sure that everyone was rewarded for the work involved.
The question now is where do we go from here? Is the system we implemented from season 2 viable for other tournaments? I have no clue and only time will tell.
I'd like to finish this by saying that despite what I've been reading lately, DC is a pro-artist organization. It's always in our best interest to make sure our artists are happy. Feel free to ask any one of them. For the most part it seems we are grouped up in this "anti-organization" movement. I would just appreciate if you don't lump us in that group without any proof of wrongdoing.
In general my point is that I would like to see more organizations and personalities actually apreciate cosmetics. Their interest influence interest of their followers and thus making demand for cosmetics a lot bigger.
With that being said and you stating that your artists are highest paid, will Valve force us to run after organizations and beg them to collab with them?
P.S. Your weekly top 5 workshop video is late!
Let's examine a scenario: You have 10 sets. 3 of them are extremely beautiful and well done, the other 7 vary from amateur to average. If you release the 3 beautiful you increase the visual level of the game - you are raising the bar. When you add the other 7 people will notice the difference and sales won't be as high. However, if you release the 7 first the mass audience can't feel the difference - they perceive the 7 average sets as beautiful. You get money from those, too. Then you add the other 3 beautiful sets and people buy those, too. It's actually a pretty simple concept. Based on the knowledge that the average person's visual culture is far inferior to the one of the artist for example.
What I dream of is Valve setting up a team of really top tier professional artists that manage the workshop - pages 1, 2 and 3. With an artist team responsible for the workshop there could be a lot more communication going on between Valve and the workshop artists who submit items. The main idea here is for them to be professional so they can give helpful feedback as well as sort out the professional work.
As for tickets/tournaments - yes, I do believe most organizations do not understand the amount of work it takes to create an item set. My words will just repeat what was said here already.
Seeing how handling of the workshop basically goes from hands to hands it's breaking up the pace we at least established not too long ago.
At least i hope new rules will allow Valve to cover more workshop ground and the range of sets accepted will increase, but this matter still needs to be brought up.
The lamest ones are when you're given for example a week to bring out fully designed set for a hero, just so it can heavily flunk and have Valve say ''no'' because it's rushed and not well done. I don't have anything against well established collaboration where there's limit set up for yes's and no's. (if I can put it that way)
But yeah, generally speaking, worst of it is that you as artist are giving up your name and skill in the place of the bigger organization. It's even more saddening when you get completely forgotten in the whole process. At first you might think it's some kind of honor working for something huge, but in the end you realize you're a pawn in a game of monopoly. And nothing more. I guess this is my ''welcome to the real world son''.
Worked with DC before, will work with DC again. They definitely don't take advantage of artists. Just throwin that in there.
Your concerns about being targeted by a minority of artists are misguided. The majority of artists here in this thread dislike the favoritism that is shown to tournaments and organizations. DotaCinema is a prominent example of workshop favoritism. You're the only organization that has been allowed to break the rules, and you have an inside track of communication with valve. Proof of wrongdoing is not the same as proof of injustice.
I want to also note that I have also referenced BeyondtheSummit and StarLadder here. I'm not singling you out. DotaCinema still serves as a clear and undeniable referece for workshop favoritism.
I have a feeling there are a lot of "idea guys" out there.
No offense, but this would mean more if it came from an artist (with a track record for quality) than from the person it directly benefits. And you'd still have to factor in the bit where DC gets all their bells and whistles imported in game, while other artists are being told the particle pipeline is being reworked.
Ultimately, the point i was trying to make with my original post wasn't about dotacinema or beyondthesummit (and it's a little irritating how one sentence can derail the entire point). What I was trying to get across in my post is that artists are an important part of the tournament process, and that fact is now being publicly recognized across multiple sides of the community. I personally feel that recognition is not properly appreciated with a workcut of 50%, and artists should do something to change that.
That would be nice. Even something as simple as a shoutout would be pretty cool to see. Zyori talks about cosmetics fairly often too.
1: In regards to favoritism: Valve wants to make money. DC is bankable. Period. If you are referring to the incident with the XMG ticket and bypassing the workshop- Ya that was bullshit, and everyone knows it, but thats not DC. That was straight up valve. Sunsfan can share if he wants, but from my understanding all of that was a result of valve shitting the bed.
2: Here it is coming from the artist: I made more with DC than without.Plain and simple. Which is why, as I said before, I will work with them again. Not likely on a ticket tho, as tickets are still bullshit all around until valve takes the time to ensure that the rev split goes in favor of the artist after the tournament is over. Doesnt make much sense to give half to a ticket provider when a ticket is expired.
3: To DNAdota- Its not too much if they more than double your sales. They more than double your sales.
If this is true then yeah, simple math wins. Btw, any info on your Doom set? There are like 7 sets accepted for the game still waiting in workshop.
Thanks for this post. This is definitely some interesting insight.
my way so far is that i work on workshop stuff since over a year. i have been working like a fucking maniac. up to 16hours a day. day by day. everyday. project by project i slowly kept getting a little better - and out of shitloads of single items and many sets, i got 1 set accepted by valve over the whole time, just had luck with that one. additional to that i had a deal with a rly small amateur tourney that bundled 2 of my wards with their tickets (i ended up earning 400dollar for each of them, more or less a joke). but since i loved those wards and wanted to see them ingame (valve didnt show interesst in them at all for a long time) im not crying about it, but being happy and proud about my selfmades.
right at the moment i see such brands like dc and other organisations and tourneys becoming so big that valve is adding their stuff nearly every patch and the original valve chests are getting more rare. nobody of that big brands ever contacted me or asked me for anything. maybe its because as i mentioned earlier i am too new. whatever. but it gives me the feeling that if i dont team up with anybody i will not get anything more ingame in future.
nobody can live from nothing.
the allover situation would also not bother me that much if i would see rly great items to go in, but (sry if i attack anyone of u now - its nothing personal so) very often i see stuff getting in without beeing in the workshop before, having blured textured and wrong faced normals ingame - or just look bored and hasted. and that makes me sad, and i guess some other artists also feel the same way. just a little insight of how i feel on the current situation of dota cosmetics.
and last point: i hate that new workshop, i think its just a total bullshit that u can not browse the best voted items per hero anymore. it makes it SO hard to find specific entrys. and loosing the star system even annoys me too because it was at least a little indicator of how much people like ur work. and u could compare with others, now there is nothing.
edit: typos
Well since DC is an organization it has its followers, some followers will support their organization and basically any artist that works with them will also get a cut. Once you attach a name to the set, people will buy it.
There is no guarantee in doubling one's sale though. Even if they can double your sales, they're still basically getting free money by adding their name to it.
--
I personally think all items should be judged "artistically" rather than who's behind the item. Items should speak for itself.
Yes. But the workshop doesn't work like that from a long time ago. ;(
Well see, there is no guarantee (but pretty close), but they are definitely NOT getting free money. You know why they have so much power to push an item? Because they have 1.1 Million followers. Don't tell me you think that shit just happened... I gave them 50% of my cut to make videos every goddamn day so they could maintain a captive audience that would then be subjected to seeing my set on every other video they watched.
And items are still judged artistically, even DC has rejected items (from an established artist, no less).
Where the issue comes up is when an organization thinks they are anywhere near that level and demand 50% as well and don't do jack shit to promote it. Many organizations aren't worth their salt, and I feel that when speaking of the majority of artists' collective dissent to the bullshit going on with organizations and the workshop, DC gets lumped in with others than genuinely deserve a raised eyebrow, even if they don't (and they don't) deserve it themselves. I think the overall low quality of tournament and organization bundles is a symptom of this. Artists can see its a raw deal, so the ones that really don't need any help in getting things in pass on any deal and the lower quality stuff gets in. Now that's on artists. If you feel like you are getting a raw deal with a tournament, don't take the deal. If you are compelled to do it because you are worried about not getting accepted otherwise, then its on you to put more time into making your set worth getting accepted.
There is no argue that DC were working like madmen to be where they are right now. Few people know how much work's going in in managing a channel like theirs. But I don't think DC have the eye of a professional artist. I don't think they can tell the difference between Monet and Degas else than one is drawing nature. I don't think DC knows that their Centaur axe has no texture whatsoever. However, I do think they have the eye of the average player which Valve is after.
This brings up an interesting point to me. When the third party organizations are getting this amount of control and power over the workshop, they can essentially 'filter out' the artists they want to see succeed or not, and you can very easily see favoritism (if not from valve) in their selections.
There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with this, it's completely up to the organization to pick who they are comfortable working with. However.. it becomes a big ugly issue when we start having a situation like the workshop today when a majority of the items are coming from said orgs as opposed to Valve who might (ideally) be much more objective about their choices, picking sets on a case by case basis, and being a lot more inclusive in their selections.
I understand that, but now they don't have to do anything extra but just endorse item. All they need to do is endorse an item and reap from the revenue. Whether you decided to work with them or not affect their current plans, only their future goals (i.e, chests). Anyways items are only a bonus for them. They build that empire themselves, they don't need the artists to continue the path they've build.
So exactly what is the 50% cut? Advertising? Do they need that 50% cut when they already have their audience? Did they contribute at all to the product? If they did, then they should get a cut.
I'm not saying that artists should or should not give 50% to them. Any percentage should be because the artist wants to contribute to that organization.
I'm not condemning DC for their fanbase, I was using them as an example of endorsement. If they actually contributed to the product, so be it.
Teabisuit wasn't saying that DC was bad.
DC wasn't just lumped in with the bad crowd due to exploitation, they were lumped in was because they are also a 3rd party organization that ships items.
You may not know it, but a couple years ago when the first tournament ticket bundles were sold, many items basically "bypassed" the standard quality bar and got shipped in game. Even though there were better items in the workshop. Why did those items get ingame? Its because those items had a name attached to it (3rd party). Even though Valve has gotten stricter on 3rd parties they are still more lenient to 3rd parties than regular workshoppers since they already have a lot of potential customers.
The push isn't a problem, its the fact when an organization has too much power, they can get horribly-made items into the game just because Valve can make a lot of money off of it. A little push can be fine. It became a problem when good items got stuck in limbo while lesser items were imported due to being endorsed by a 3rd party. (even if the item was low quality)
I agree with this. I think artists should have the priority because they are the provider of items.
Wanted to say this but couldn't word it properly so didn't. So yeah, this is what will happen even more and more as time goes on.
For the record, I recall a discussion happening right here about organizations taking over the workshop due to them having a lot of followers. It seems it went beyond getting votes.