The problem of the workshop mainly due to item saturation in the economy. Valve won't add too many items if there are already too many items in the market. However their current system is flawed and they're just prolonging its crash by selling organization/team items (mainly).
Why does Valve currently importing sets? maybe because they think they'll be making more money. However, as stated before, the problem is item saturation. All Valve needs to do is make a system where old items are destroyed and newer items and made. Its kind of a craft system. But then that would mean artists won't gain money. So how would we fix this? Simply make the crafting system apply as a bonus to an item/set. Loading screens, FX would apply to a bundle/item. The way it would happen is that you take a couple items and "craft" it into the set thus getting the "extra" items.
This way, items with particles are kind of equal to normal single items, (until it unlocks particles). So when the old items are destroyed. That would older items even less available and thus maybe even increase their price (instead of being trash and not being sold through steam market).
Once the economy is fixed, then Valve can add as many items as they want, singles, sets. The main goal is a constant item destruction and item distribution. That way Valve can add whatever they want without that much consequence.
I think something else that would benefit items are notes saying "this will not be accepted" and "more votes required".
Just some more info like that will help everyone I think.
How do you guys feel about the changes they made to the workshop?
Personally while I understand the benefits of the "popular today" system I kind of wish they would also have the popular "this week" option as well. With the popular today version you only get to be on the first page for 1 day, then kind of linger on the 2nd page the next day, and then you're lost in the abyss which is the workshop lol. Which means the window of time you get for your set to be exposed to the masses is much shorter. I assume this is why they implemented the voting queue but I guess it's too soon to tell if people will actually use it.
I realized that even though we have one button for voting for sets in a queue, the front page still shows all of the set thumbnails at a time, which still clutters up workshop visibility and misses the entire point of why we wanted things combined.
also, moving this here from the big workshop thread:
tales from the new workshop:
thought you guys might find this funny. We had to unhide our pudge set so nexon could see that it existed, and within the day it already received over 1200 votes and is on the front page.
why is this notable? for a couple reasons, actually. First, it's the particle slot. The thumbnail is an image of the head, with the word 'particles' across it. When you view the item, that is still the only image available. There are no images of the set, nor the effects. Yet not only did it get lots of votes, it also got on the front page. Even better, it's on the front page with a 50% rating. This means (most likely) that the front page is simply items with the most traffic. Which means even more that organizations or individuals with advertising power will dominate the front page regardless of if their items are liked or not. Sweet !
just thought that was pretty interesting.
*for those wondering, this was an alternate style of our pudge set for nexon to use for promotional purposes. It wasn't imported for votes and has no description or images because the original submission handles all that. It was never meant to be public and is only there to represent the files.
mm, This is pretty scarey BounchFX. I've noticed myself that most of sets on the front page have been in my queue.
it seems in order to get votes the options currently are
* Luck out and get in the queue
* Advertise heavily outside of workshop
* Attach your items to a popular 3rd party
* Get noticed in the recent's page ( which I suspect gets even less views then it did before, as people will be looking in the queue system instead )
Individuals seem to be very reliant on getting in the random pick queue.
The new system really does seem to favor those connected to 3rd party's or those with heavy advertising more then ever. Which I imagine in Valve's view would be a good thing. Items sets that have been heavily pre-advertised both help sales of the set and promote the game. Both of which are good for their bottom line.
From a business point ,it doesn't make sense for valve to add an item set from an un-advertised individual over a heavily pre-advertised group.
Is this an extra nail in the coffin of the humble individual workshop artist? I guess the next couple waves of accepted sets will show us. Given the last couple items/set accepted were both connected to 3rd parties, seem both to have very few votes ( wlad's comments actually seem to be negative in nature ) I'm very very worried.
-Toasty
As an update, my new items updates in an older set have now joined the queue it seems. They are on the front page, however with quite poor 40-60% ratings like BounchFX saw for his items. The front page seems to favor, items being voted on, not popular items. It's quite disheartening to see your overall set to crash from 90-95% to now -85%, lowering by the minute. I guess the queue system would be a lot like flicking TV channels. As a viewer you are forced to glimpse things they aren't really interesting in, so you keep clicking no/next until you hit something you are actually interesting in. Will this system give Valve a better real world rating of sets? Time will tell I guess.
I will need to think carefully if I will mark my new collections as sets. From what I saw if you have collection market as set it is put into queue instead of your items. So users get to vote only once on collection instead of voting for example 6 times on items. This is very risky. More over you cant put any screenshots or further advertising graphics on collection page which can lead to single downvote of all parts. That is a bit scary.
@Konras I think the best upside to this is that we now know that Valve are taking into account votes on collections in addition to individual items. Collections weren't a big deal in the last workshop (in comparison to top row home page then).
It might also take into account that they are possibly focusing more on pos/neg ratings rather then the amount of ratings. That's just a guess though.
it seems in order to get votes the options currently are
* Luck out and get in the queue
* Advertise heavily outside of workshop
* Attach your items to a popular 3rd party
* Get noticed in the recent's page ( which I suspect gets even less views then it did before, as people will be looking in the queue system instead )
I think we have to keep in mind that sets or items don't automatically get in just based on votes. Votes and stats are useful tools for Valve to judge the interest of players but I really don't think that's the whole story ... At the end of the day someone at Valve still has to curate entries and take the decision of putting something in or not.
In short : the workshop voting system gives the players a certain illusion of control while providing useful stats, but maybe we shouldn't worry too much about it ?
I think we have to keep in mind that sets or items don't automatically get in just based on votes. Votes and stats are useful tools for Valve to judge the interest of players but I really don't think that's the whole story ... At the end of the day someone at Valve still has to curate entries and take the decision of putting something in or not.
Although thats true, Valve also looks at what the players like and put items in accordingly. If Valve likes an item but the community doesn't, Valve probably won't put the item into the game. But if Valve doesn't like an item but the community loves it, they might put it into the game.
I think we have to keep in mind that sets or items don't automatically get in just based on votes. Votes and stats are useful tools for Valve to judge the interest of players but I really don't think that's the whole story ... At the end of the day someone at Valve still has to curate entries and take the decision of putting something in or not.
In short : the workshop voting system gives the players a certain illusion of control while providing useful stats, but maybe we shouldn't worry too much about it ?
Then again, who knows really ...
It is more about worrying how the people assigned by Valve chooses the stuff... (tinfoil hat on!)
If Valve likes an item but the community doesn't, Valve probably won't put the item into the game. But if Valve doesn't like an item but the community loves it, they might put it into the game.
While I can see some odd stuff happening when third parties/organisations are involved, it seems to me that this kind of situation happens much less with "regular" items. Now there is always the problem of quality items being forgotten and lost in limbo regardless of votes, but the queue system seems to have been designed to address this issue - so at the end of the day I feel like there is not much to be worried about really.
I think we have to keep in mind that sets or items don't automatically get in just based on votes. Votes and stats are useful tools for Valve to judge the interest of players but I really don't think that's the whole story ... At the end of the day someone at Valve still has to curate entries and take the decision of putting something in or not.
Votes are used as an excuse, at the very least, but still in a way that I can't seem to understand. We've had them turn down 95% 300-1000 rated rated stuff of ours before because 'not enough interest', and then have seen them accept 4* 100-200 vote rated items. Mystery for sure, hah. I think it's pretty much what you said though. If Valve likes + they think it will sell to consumers then it will get in (and exposure has a LOT to do with this..). If valve doesn't like but they still see it gaining popularity than they seem to as well in a lot of cases.
All I know is I see some very low quality items getting in rather often which makes me second guess their actual quality control (despite how strict they've made it seem to us in the past) in favor of popularity and earnings potential. I can't blame em, but it sure doesn't do the in-game art favors when stuff like that gets accepted. But hey, it's subjective and I'm only speaking for myself. If the player base as a whole likes it, that's the important part !
- Votes/likes
- Design, quality, does it look good in-game
- Difficulty of implementation (yes we can/no we can't/not yet)
...and probably a few more I've missed.
Those are some of the topics I think they would consider when choosing items and based on what's been accepted so far, we should have a good understanding of what's expected. I think when people have mentioned "You can only get something in if tourney/pro etc...", shouldn't affect their decision to implement or not. Decisions shouldn't be skewed based on who or what it's made for (and I don't think this is the case).
I've also recently come to the solid conclusion that the 'guidelines' can be bent (I was hoping that they couldn't be), a good example of this is some timber sets, a bunch of nyx sets, some jug sets etc... and I can't even count the number of accepted sets that have introduced new colors. So, I guess the main thing to consider when designing is that, as long as the character is recognisable, anything goes.
One last thing to ask, are they now expecting a loading screen to go with every set?
Some good discussion happening in this thread. It seems we are all unsure of one main thing. What combination of positive vote % + number of votes + art quality + advertising + Valve's interest + Valve's implementation overhead does it take to get in game? It seems like an ever changing, evolving answer.
On another note, Konras has brought up a very good point. Under the new collection set option the page that players see in the queue system has 1 image ( most likely a loading screen), possible a youtube video (most people don't see to watch), and icons for the items in the set. It doesn't give the viewer much to judge your work on. I can't imagine people bother to click on an individual item to see the extra images/gifs etc.
It would be very nice if the collection page also included the ability to add list of extra images like the individual items can. This would allow us to only place those extra images on the collection page, and not on each and every individual item in the set.
1: I want single items to come back. Give regular, consistent $.99 single item chests a spot on the store.
The main store updates are sets sets sets. Courier and Wards and HuDs are sparely added, limiting the workshop artists focus and stifling a lot of potential creativity.
2: Separate Organisation addition to the workshop into their own category when being added. meet a quota per month of items added to the store which should not the cut into by Organisations, Tourney Tickets and similar event bonuses.
Not just to chests, but add some items to the storefront too.
I just want to repeat what Anuxi had to say. I agree with it.
The votes on the workshop are weird. I've never really felt like they actually mattered for getting stuff in game, but they do matter for workshop artists if they want to be recognized for what they've done by the general public.
just submitted my first set since the changes.. we'll see how it goes. I do wish they would let us add images to the collection page, as well as reduce the huge grey bar along the top of the image we can have. Also, let us insert images and gifs into the collection description like the other pages if this is the direction they seem to want to push. It's a start but there's a lot more to tinker with hehe.
See that's why the system makes no sense to begin with. People are voting to show interest more or less just to get Valve's attention, but they have no real correlation to anything.
Valve could honestly gain a lot of traction I think if they'd just be open for like, a week with the Workshop community about how they choose things and what their actual goal with it is. Maybe making a system where artists don't just sit around hoping to get in, but actually have some kind of threshold of traffic/vote quality to reach. That way if you don't get in you at least know why.
They should do a Workshop project where the community redesigns the Workshop to work better. There seems to be a pretty strong consensus for a lot of the changes. Don't really see why Valve, short of random Valve reasons and secrecy would not want to do them.
I'm just going to drop in something somewhat unrelated but somewhat related here about what my experience has been with the Valve selection process.
When you submit an item or a set to Valve as part of a tournament ticket, or a chest, or anything that "forces" Valve to make some kind of statement regarding what's going on, that's when you get some insight into how the process works, or what they want.
I'm going to stay as vague as possible here to keep all parties involved somewhere in the grey unknown.
Sometimes, you'll get a message back with a confirmation that they're looking into a set. Sometimes that's all you hear, but sometimes they'll tell you that they're going to pass this around the office to get everyone's opinions. To me, this is somewhat reassuring because it implies it's not just a guy, or a couple of guys selecting stuff to get in, but something a bit more personal to the Dota 2 Family or "Valve" as we like to call them.
Sometimes you'll get feedback on why something wasn't chosen, and this is usually the only time you'll get feedback from Valve. I've heard about cosmetics being too similar to what a hero already looks like, or existing cosmetics. Sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't. When you stick to Valve's established guidelines, it's sometimes hard to distinguish one set from another at a glance, and a lot of times I get the feeling that they want us to push outside of that bubble.
Several times I've heard them express interest in seeing something more different, to go extravagant with something. I know that's vague, but I don't believe they mean just shapes here, but also colors. Now, this is going up against established guidelines, and there are presumably limits to what you can get away with. That being said, it really feels like they want to move away from the traditional color and form design they originally wanted to enforce.
Sometimes (and this is usually the only way you'll find out about this) you'll hear back that they're not looking for items for a specific hero at this time. In this case, Slardar. Would've never guessed that on my own, the guy is in serious need of new cosmetics. What the reason is, nobody but Valve knows, but in the meantime, some artists will be "wasting" a lot of man hours making Slardar stuff. Even if they're doing a model rework and want to keep sets coming in for maybe later evaluation, it seems more reasonable for people to create cosmetics around the final product...
All of the above is based on my experiences, and I realize I've had less experience than a lot of artists here. Some of it's my interpretation of the things I've heard and seen, so take it with a grain of salt.
Never put too much trust in a guy that says "Sometimes" that many times in one post! :poly124:
Thanks for that post Chiz; it was pretty insightful. :O Wish valve would tell us what heroes to avoid working on - they'd kind of done that before in teh past, when they removed luna from the workshop requirements page. (also, there's a Nexon slardar weapon in this patch. *facepalm*)
Who wants stats? XD
Here's a list of the raw data of every non-valve item since TI4, sorted by patch date (hopefully not missing anything): http://i.imgur.com/7gWd0Wj.png
October and November have been awful for independent artists! It's probably why it's been feeling cynical around here lately.
When you do a count for contributors:
Normal artist submission: 32
Submission with a tournament/organization: 49
Submission with a pro-player/personality: 4
Submission with Perfect World/Nexon: 18
When you sort the data by submission type, you can see the following breakdown:
Couriers: 7/12 attached to a tournament/organization/PW/Nexon. (Almost evenly split)
Huds: 7/8 attached to a tournament/organization.
Wards: 4/5 attached to a tournament/organization.
Single Items: 16/16 attached to a tournament/organization/PW/Nexon.
When sorted by date range (From date of submission to the workshop to the patch where the item is released): http://i.imgur.com/YDEDGOh.png
Average number of days on the workshop before a set gets in game: 80.16 (Tossed out the empress naga set (710 days!!!) and the frozen emperor lich set, cuz data skewage.) There are 55 sets that have under 80 days, and out of those 11 are independent artist submissions.
It looks like tournaments/organizations do get preferential treatment in getting into the game. The purples solidly occupy the top of the list, but are also pretty evenly scattered through the rest. I think this is because tournaments are on a deadline, and are also able to communicate with valve wrt item acceptability and direction. The scattering can be explained by their ability to cherry pick existing good sets that aren't yet in game and expedite the admittance process, at the cost of a x% cut of the profits.
The bottom smattering of purple is because I couldnt actually find the item on the workshop. DotaCinema in particular, did not submit their most recent tournament items through the workshop. Going to point out SLTV Star Series Season 11 did the same thing as DotaCinema: their luna set was submitted to the workshop Oct.22, containing only the thumbnail file and no other screenshots or images. Then on Nov. 13, the day it was released in store, the workshop files were all edited to contain screenshots. Clearly, it also did not go through the proper submission procedure.
Other possible bits of interest:
There is also a column where the artists are listed for the sets. Just wanted to say that valve has really been adding sets from a varied and wide pool of people. I dont have a good way of displaying/organizing/visualizing that data though, since excel doesnt let me store arrays in a single cell.
I do think that the bad organizations are being slowly weeded out. Now, having never worked with anyone at all, I can't really be a judge of what makes an org good or bad... But there are some organizations that do multiple collaborations with the same artists, so it seems they're both happy with the arrangement. And then there are others that seem to exist on a one-and-done deal, no matter who they pair up with. Given enough time, this could sort itself out, as the predatory organizations run out of people who are willing to collaborate.
wow teabiscuit, really awesome. Great breakdown. Thank you for taking the time to do that!
I honestly have to wonder if the amount of org work we've done in the past has had an impact on the amount of personal stuff I get accepted, because I do both often but it's very unbalanced. I haven't seen a single "personal" item get in since January (Not counting TI4 since that was a special case). On one hand, that's great of Valve to diversify, on the other I feel like I'm boning myself (the orgs have gotten the majority share almost every time). At the end of this month I will have 7 sets sitting in the workshop: five personal, two being pro sets.. so two still affiliated but no small number overall.
I really enjoyed helping and working with lots of different people but in the end, outside of an accelerated timeline I can't say it has been worth it. Especially if it has contributed to not getting any of my own sets in (speculation). We have been burned and misled far more times than not and the amount of time, work, and trust I put towards them makes me uncomfortable to think about, but it was a good lesson learned even if it did take close to a year to come to my current state of mind and feelings about it. I don't regret helping any of them out and it was wonderful meeting so many people.
However, seeing those numbers just kind of drives the point home for me that this workshop is slowly being shifted away from being artist focused and more towards benefiting those who aren't actually creating the content being sold. I think it would be wonderful if tournaments got sales for the tickets and artists for the sets, but this mixture just seems to lead to a lot of people getting taken advantage of, with everyone questioning where the real value is. Maybe it's a temporary thing and Valve will get back to putting in a majority of things from the independent workshop scene, plus an assload of singles if we are so lucky, hehe. I don't know but it sure is interesting as shit to follow and participate in. Apologies for all the text! I think about this stuff far too often, and hope that some may benefit from me spilling my thoughts all over the page about my experiences with the workshop.
Wish valve would tell us what heroes to avoid working on - they'd kind of done that before in the past, when they removed luna from the workshop requirements page. (also, there's a Nexon slardar weapon in this patch. *facepalm*)
Couldn't agree more, that's what I addressed strongly in my original feedback. This is the first and foremost issue Valve needs to solve before we touch single items and others. I'm certain we appreciate the effort if they communicate us in advance, before wasted effort is made.
[*] There is also a column where the artists are listed for the sets. Just wanted to say that valve has really been adding sets from a varied and wide pool of people. I dont have a good way of displaying/organizing/visualizing that data though, since excel doesnt let me store arrays in a single cell.
I would like to see this broken down to how many sets per artists accepted. Or further analyse this before making that conclusion.
Teabiscuit: Could the short acceptance be because a lot of the third party sets aren't 'custom made' but are sets that are already on the workshop, that the third party then sees , asks Valve for approval and if it is granted they are resubmitted before being shipped with the ticket etc. shortly after?
@SLIMEface: That's probably true for some of them - if I could find an original submission (without the tournament inclusion), I used that date for when it was first uploaded to the workshop. By the way, congratulations on having the fastest independent upload to make it in game! XD
The artists in the left most column have the most items added to the game. This stands out quite a bit in the second treemap. The third treemap, colored by type, shows that these artists have gotten a lot of singles in game. Don Don, Pearington Pear, and Red Moon Studios all got their own single items chests, which greatly inflates their counts.
@Bounchfx: You really have a lot of experience working with other organizations, and I'd love to pick your mind about it. It's interesting that the organizations usually get majority share - You guys are a very successful studio, you produce high quality content, and you should have a strong negotiating position. Since it's harsher for smaller/newer individuals to partner up (like Chiz said, with having to offer more %).... the effects of this tournament/organization favoritism is just that much stronger.
Ultimately though, chests and items affiliated with tournaments and organizations take away from opportunities for independent artists. There are less personal sets getting in for everyone.
More stats!
Average days on the workshop before going in game for normal submissions: 103.13 days.
Before the workshop changes can really kick in, I thought it might be interesting to see if there were any trends between upload time and acceptance in game. Honestly, this graph doesn't mean too much, when it can't be compared to the total number of items submitted on a that day. But if you're superstitious, upload your work on mondays! XD (Any idea why this trend would exist? Do Mondays tend to give you higher exposure?) I'm excited to see how it changes with the new workshop page. :O
teabiscuit, that is some freaking amazing data! Love it! Thanks a lot for taking your time to do it, I'm sure a lot of people greatly appreciate what you are doing here.
wow, talk about a breakdown! it's really awesome of you to take the time to do this! Ouch, only one set of mine has really got in since jan, blargh, and even then it was originally for an org. So much work there though, wow. The community really is amazing.
oh, as a small note, Carty was also for an org (Dota Cinema), so in the second link we only really have one of our own item in since jan, and redpaw took over a year to get accepted. The shadow shaman TI4 might count as well? but that was done for Perfect World before they decided not to use it. Kinda makes me sick seeing how little I've done for myself heh.
I would be more than willing to have a chat if you'd like, feel free to PM me or add me on steam.
Thanks again for all your hard work putting this together.
Teabiscuit I doubt my data will help you much, but I can tell you for a fact because its happened a few times, if I intentionally avoided monday I'd get more traffic than if I uploaded on monday because I knew that's when everyone seems to upload things. I didn't understand why everyone was uploading on mondays either (Aside from the notion that maybe Valve sees the item when they come in on monday and might add it for the patch that is usually on wednesday/thursday) But I feel thats not often the case anymore either way.
That's for HUDs though. Not sure if the same is true of sets.
Getting taken advantage of lies also in the hand of the artists community. If someone is willing to work for a minimum wage the orgs will always have someone to abuse.
If you want more single items, produce more single items.
If you want orgs pay fair share for your work, dont do it under a certain cut. And it better be a fuckin good cut if you ask me. Cause you do the bloody work not one of those "I sell you exposure" rats
Your work has value, stand by it. They need you more than you need them, always remember that.
We, here at polycount dota2 are in a good position since we got a place where we can organise ourself, just boycott unfair organsizer offers. Let them see far they come with no artist doing anything. And if one artist does it, let them see how far he will come once hes the only one out there. workload is workload.
Turn the fuckin tide instead of just complaining about it. Its in your hand alone. It takes a bit of guts and a bit of patience but I bet we can make a statement.
Its always the same in all sectors of economy, almost looks like being taken advantage of is integrated in the mindset of the modern worker/employe/artist.
Make a difference, say NO!
Once there arent any sets left for valve to put ingame, they will surely notice all those juicy single items in the workshop. We are the content creators, without content no sale, fuck it, use your power!
@teabiscuit I got one more set: Rightful Heir that was released in June independent Chest. Somehow its missing on the list.
Also I think right now more and more sets are denied for 3rd parties by Valve. That was the case with life stealer set for DC chest. Most of the times we are unable to even reach to such info, but it would be interesting to know the numbers for this. I can only tell that I have been approach by many organizations asking for sets because what they initially proposed was denied by Valve.
Soon most likely most 3rd parties will go straight to workshop instead of preparing any set in advance. Somehow for me that breaks clear line between individual and 3rd parties items.
Anyway all of this is interesting topic worth reading
Thanks guys, I just really love stats. XD This would've been easier if the dota wiki didn't block my scraper (which was for a separate stat inquiry) Just imagine what kind of awesome information we could get if valve would give us sales stats!
Hatter union! I'm in! If I had a nickel for every time someone has told me "Yeah, it'll be free, but you can put it on your resume!", I could buy... more cosmetics!
@GhostDetector: Honestly, I might be in the minority here that doesn't really miss the disappearance of single items. ^_^; As a consumer, I'm more interested in clothes than weapons, and as an artist, I like making things I want to wear in game. Anyway, I got this information from the dota 2 wiki
@konras: ahhh, sorry. >.< Looks like I missed that entire chest. I'll edit that in so it can be in any future visualizations. Crap. Thanks for pointing that out, hopefully it's the only omission. >.<
Do you happen to know if the 3rd parties that get denied wanted to use a finished set? Or did they get approval/denial at an earlier concept stage?
Problem with the previous data: The treemap was case sensitive, so it didn't accurately represent the count of artists in game. There's a "redmoon studios" and a "Redmoon Studios" as separate entities, which explains where the Tang-Ki shaman set went.
It's there in the main data, but it's just listed under Vayne for the treemap. I limited the contributors to display in the big artist's graph due to hiccups importing the data from excel into the visualization software. (Which is Treemap, by UMD's HCIL)
Actually, the puckward IS listed! I know I saw it listed under Vayne; I know teabiscuit included items multiple times under different artists, so maybe that's what you're referring to. You also might be looking at the wrong list, since one of teabiscuit's tree table things are for sets only - which is probably a stat she's more interested in.
It would be really awesome if these were uploaded in some other format, so we could ctrl+f through it, for fact checking or simple curiosity. But I'm not complaining, it's already great as it is. It would be nice to be able to get more collaboration on it, since there really isn't much transparency between us. Hatter union is, imo, way overdue.
Great post Coyo.Te, you are absolutely correct, it is on all of us to stand up for ourselves. I wouldn't be against a "union" and in fact it's been talked about for quite a while off-forum but the main concern always comes down to those that would be willing to take a significantly low amount and undercut everyone. However at the same time, I feel like that's their prerogative if they want to work for so little, same as I don't blame anyone but myself for the decisions I made earlier, only I'm a bit wiser now and will make much different choices hah.
"Honestly, I might be in the minority here that doesn't really miss the disappearance of single items. ^_^; As a consumer, I'm more interested in clothes than weapons, and as an artist, I like making things I want to wear in game. "
This makes me sad, but only because of the "I'm more interested in clothes than weapons" part. Singles SHOULD NOT mean weapons, but that seems to be all anyone ever does. I tried to do my best to bring in a majority of non-weapons into the singles we did, but I understand that a) consumers place more value in weapons it seems, and b) artists like creating them more/they are easier. It is unfortunate though that singles do seem to = weapons at this point. Maybe it's part of the reason Valve has stopped putting them in? /speculation
bounchfx : I dont think it has passed enough time since the last single item chest to get the trend ( like we could ever figure out a trend:D ).
From what I know ( few info I got reading betwen the lines ) , they prepare chest a few in advance , and change them if necesary ; as we can see , they keep experimenting with the store.
I like the pricing for the sets vs chest from this patch . In my oppinion its made to give the chest value over time .
Ive learned some stufs the hard way this year(workshop, tournaments ,interaction with some of the most horrendus peoples like Marko from the Netolic ,and some others that I will not name ) , but I'm preety happy overall , and looking forward for the next year.
@bounchfx I think once again Valve showed really nicely what we should also consider as singles with their TI immortals. I mean especially my 2 favorites: WR cloak and DP skirt with legs
Btw. When I hear word UNIONS first thing I have in mind is a Detroit, or maybe what is left of it I would rather stay with friendly advice that we should give each other how to deal with problems and decision making
I don't know that a union is the right thing to call it, or compare it to. I don't know, maybe it's just putting a bad image of hostile exclusionary behavior in my head from previous experiences.
I do, however, think that the sharing of information, more transparency, and initiatives like the recent "Pro Players looking for sets" thread by Anuxi, are all important. Not just to new workshoppers, but to give the environment some much needed stability in the long run.
I'm not saying all information should be public, but there are a lot of things that seem to pass for "common knowledge" among people who have been doing this for a long time, and people already in the industry outside of the workshop.
I started creating stuff for the workshop back in March/April of this year, during the whole favoritism and "single items are dead!" uprising. It was a really discouraging time to be joining the workshop, just as it probably is right now. There was a degree of hostility going around that I'm fortunately not seeing now, and understandable as that was, it made it difficult and intimidating to look for answers to questions like "What's a fair revenue share between artists and tournament organizers/organizations?"
If someone's going to stand up for themselves, or have the guts to make a statement, it helps to come properly informed when you step up to the plate. Right now, I feel like very few people are, and until that information becomes common knowledge, it's hard to expect anyone to do anything.
When it comes to the idea of undercutting, it's pretty easy to see why that would remain appealing to some people, regardless of common standards across any group of people. The workshop is a world-spanning environment, with people in varying economies, living conditions, and currency situations. What's fair and appealing to some could easily not be worth the effort for someone else.
I'm sorry for sounding negative, I really am. I just think some basic steps are needed to get started if we're looking to make any kind of lasting impact by making more unified decisions.
I think that if someone has contacts in the organizers "camp" it would be interesting to hear their side of the issue. What justifies the percentages they're offering etc. I always assume they have certain costs to cover to some extent, depending on the situation such as a tournament, but I don't know anything about running tournaments or pro-player organizations.
I'd also like to say that if anyone's got any questions about anything workshop related, I'm always happy to try to answer them. I don't have the experience that a lot of you guys have, but I'm trying to learn as I go, and contribute what I can in the process.
1. Give singles back!
But as Konras pointed, the singles would have to be f*cking awesome for the current level of stuff we have being submitted now.
I highly agree with this. I'm all for single items if they are MUCH BETTER than what is in the workshop. I mean, no offense it's just my opinion, but there is about 4+ single item chests made by popular artists in the workshop. When I look at them, I really don't care or want them in the store because they are generally really "safe" in design. There are plenty of gems in the workshop, but I really hope if they do bring back single items, it won't be the community pre-made chests but hand picking individual single items from multiple artists.
"Honestly, I might be in the minority here that doesn't really miss the disappearance of single items. ^_^; As a consumer, I'm more interested in clothes than weapons, and as an artist, I like making things I want to wear in game. "
This makes me sad, but only because of the "I'm more interested in clothes than weapons" part. Singles SHOULD NOT mean weapons, but that seems to be all anyone ever does. I tried to do my best to bring in a majority of non-weapons into the singles we did, but I understand that a) consumers place more value in weapons it seems, and b) artists like creating them more/they are easier. It is unfortunate though that singles do seem to = weapons at this point. Maybe it's part of the reason Valve has stopped putting them in? /speculation
I never realized this, but you are right! The best single items in my opinion are the ones for clothes just like the CM winter solstice fashion scarf. We used to get a lot of interesting Juggernaut mask designs as well. :poly136: I'm not really interested in boring Rubick staffs or beastmaster axes
Singles do have their place in the grand scheme of things. Weapons are great for beginners: they're easily mirrored, they usually just have one bone to rig to, and they are easier to model (compared to something like fur or hair). I got into modeling specifically because of dota 2 - it's fun to make things and imagine being able to see other people wearing them... and I don't want that opportunity to go away for other new modelers. This is one of the coolest things you can do for an existing game.
(Unrelated anecdote: After Foxclover and I submitted our crystal maiden set, she was actually recognized in game! Some guy was like "i know you, my friends keep raving about your set! good luck getting in game!", etc. THE WARM AND FUZZIES!)
Anyway, there are some really good non-weapon singles in the workshop right now; zip's made this awesome pa cape and leshrac horns, and I am making the most desperate grabby hands at belkun's queen of pain wings. And for historic items, I'm still using snowstorm's cm hair all the time. Unfortunately though, these items are always the rare ones for the chests, while the weapons comprise the majority of the normal drops.
Do you guys think the TI4 immortals would've been as popular if they didnt have particle effects or new animations on every single one. If you stripped the immortals of the special things, would it be considered an interesting and popular chest? I don't see Valve allowing normal artists to create a singles chest where every item has a particle effect (esp not on a regular basis), and it'd be very hard to match the bar they set with a vanilla item. (Though I think the krob butterfly skirt would've been insanely successful without particles too)
I do, however, think that the sharing of information, more transparency, and initiatives like the recent "Pro Players looking for sets" thread by Anuxi, are all important. Not just to new workshoppers, but to give the environment some much needed stability in the long run.
I'm not saying all information should be public, but there are a lot of things that seem to pass for "common knowledge" among people who have been doing this for a long time, and people already in the industry outside of the workshop.
What I really think would be great to come out of this is for artists to have a safe space to discuss things and ask questions... like a password protected forum, where only artists get access. It seems like people are hesitant to talk about their experiences working with organizations/tournaments, percentages, earnings, etc. and I wonder if that's because this is a public and open forum. The things we say here can have reaching ramifications.
Another thing is that... it's actually really intimidating to post here. u_u; It always seems so serious business; people stick to basically posting art and commenting on art. It sometimes feels like it would be intruding if i asked questions about irrelevant things. It was really surprising the first time i joined teh google hangout; you guys were totally different there than here on the polycount forums.
And for historic items, I'm still using snowstorm's cm hair all the time. Unfortunately though, these items are always the rare ones for the chests, while the weapons comprise the majority of the normal drops.
TALKING ABOUT THE WARM AND FUZZIES...!
I really do love making single items, like the challenge of creating something really unique whilst fitting all that into a single slot and yet having it blend in with other items and sets is a huge. It's much better for artistic development to quickly iterate over a few smaller items too. Singles are like indie games where game designers push artistic boundaries, whilst sets are like AAA games where developers can do epic stuff.
If Valve continues along the lines they've been going with immortal singles though, it'll just continue to get harder to make suitable single items, just as it's getting harder to make full sets as compared to singles. For e.g. I'd love to have a blink effect with flower particles on the QoP hair I did with Fox recently, but that just means yet another layer of complexity to work with.
As for the Google hangouts, yeah it's always been a super awesome place. The biggest downside to me has always been the 10 person limit. Not that it matters any more since when I log on there's usually no one on. I keep thinking that if there had been no active user limit that it might have grown to becoming as mainstream as this forum is. The hangouts kept me motivated and going through the whole Torchbearer month and is a big reason why I'm still doing all this stuff. I'm actually considering building a website that uses Twitch API to do something similar to the hangouts so we can have a hangout and twitch streams running at the same time without a user limit. All the chat can be done via a twitch group chat and if you don't want to be running a twitch stream that'd be fine too. I just don't know if anyone will use it any more. If only I'd thought of this a year ago.
To be honest, the sombre atmosphere here vs the hangouts and the constant doom and gloom recently is also such a downer. If anything, I think that drives away both newer and more experienced artists from posting here and contributing as much as the workshop developments do. Important as these topics are, reading all the negativity also really affects how much people want to continue doing our sort of work, participating in our sort of community. After reading Vayne's post about how he intended to stop soon I stopped to consider whether I wanted to continue working on Dota 2 stuff too. I'll definitely be continuing until at least the next International because I intend to attend though.
doom and gloom: it's been well over a year since i've got something in-game, ive only ever gotten one set in-game. I used to get really down about it, but i realized doing sets and items is just great practice and i enjoy the moment to moment of it.
Every once in a while i'll read these threads and see other peoples stats on how many items they have in-game and feel like a sack of shit, but then i just try to remind myself im doing this for myself to get better. Not really making any point here, i guess just agreeing with the Doom and gloom mentality a little and self loathing etc etc, blah blah on my part.
Luckily i'm not relying on this for any kind of actual income.
whatever the actual function...i really like the "hatters union" name we need a badge. we gotta rock it.
its not that its even something rather unusual, people have organized themselves like this for centuries, this might be the internet but the same rules for jobs should apply. it might sound a bit funny at first but it is a serious idea for a serious issue. if ppl want to use our work or our work power and expertise we should stand by a few rules, off everybody is free and as said in my previous post everybody has to decide for themselves, I stand by what I said and believe deeply in the value of my work, may it be dota2 related or not, amateurish or professional, there will always be room to improve but time and dedication also have value. I deeply believe in the value and the relevance of creative work for our modern day society, no matter whats the specific surrounding. artists have most often been the looked down to, not really valued ppl in a lot of situations yet our work inspires, enlightens, creates emotions and all sorts of other essential human reactions. It satisfies a deep human need for expression. So that said, why go for less?! Go for more!
I think a free hatters union would be a good place to start to have some guidelines, for ourselves and for possible customers, it could also work to have people as representatives and contacts, to talk to valve or organizers and such. I think it could possibly strengthen our business. these are all just ideas being tossed out, some might work some might be too good to become true, idk. maybe we should start considering...
it might just an experiment but it might be one worthwhile.
Replies
Why does Valve currently importing sets? maybe because they think they'll be making more money. However, as stated before, the problem is item saturation. All Valve needs to do is make a system where old items are destroyed and newer items and made. Its kind of a craft system. But then that would mean artists won't gain money. So how would we fix this? Simply make the crafting system apply as a bonus to an item/set. Loading screens, FX would apply to a bundle/item. The way it would happen is that you take a couple items and "craft" it into the set thus getting the "extra" items.
This way, items with particles are kind of equal to normal single items, (until it unlocks particles). So when the old items are destroyed. That would older items even less available and thus maybe even increase their price (instead of being trash and not being sold through steam market).
Once the economy is fixed, then Valve can add as many items as they want, singles, sets. The main goal is a constant item destruction and item distribution. That way Valve can add whatever they want without that much consequence.
Just some more info like that will help everyone I think.
Personally while I understand the benefits of the "popular today" system I kind of wish they would also have the popular "this week" option as well. With the popular today version you only get to be on the first page for 1 day, then kind of linger on the 2nd page the next day, and then you're lost in the abyss which is the workshop lol. Which means the window of time you get for your set to be exposed to the masses is much shorter. I assume this is why they implemented the voting queue but I guess it's too soon to tell if people will actually use it.
Thoughts?
also, moving this here from the big workshop thread:
tales from the new workshop:
thought you guys might find this funny. We had to unhide our pudge set so nexon could see that it existed, and within the day it already received over 1200 votes and is on the front page.
why is this notable? for a couple reasons, actually. First, it's the particle slot. The thumbnail is an image of the head, with the word 'particles' across it. When you view the item, that is still the only image available. There are no images of the set, nor the effects. Yet not only did it get lots of votes, it also got on the front page. Even better, it's on the front page with a 50% rating. This means (most likely) that the front page is simply items with the most traffic. Which means even more that organizations or individuals with advertising power will dominate the front page regardless of if their items are liked or not. Sweet !
just thought that was pretty interesting.
*for those wondering, this was an alternate style of our pudge set for nexon to use for promotional purposes. It wasn't imported for votes and has no description or images because the original submission handles all that. It was never meant to be public and is only there to represent the files.
it seems in order to get votes the options currently are
* Luck out and get in the queue
* Advertise heavily outside of workshop
* Attach your items to a popular 3rd party
* Get noticed in the recent's page ( which I suspect gets even less views then it did before, as people will be looking in the queue system instead )
Individuals seem to be very reliant on getting in the random pick queue.
The new system really does seem to favor those connected to 3rd party's or those with heavy advertising more then ever. Which I imagine in Valve's view would be a good thing. Items sets that have been heavily pre-advertised both help sales of the set and promote the game. Both of which are good for their bottom line.
From a business point ,it doesn't make sense for valve to add an item set from an un-advertised individual over a heavily pre-advertised group.
Is this an extra nail in the coffin of the humble individual workshop artist? I guess the next couple waves of accepted sets will show us. Given the last couple items/set accepted were both connected to 3rd parties, seem both to have very few votes ( wlad's comments actually seem to be negative in nature ) I'm very very worried.
-Toasty
As an update, my new items updates in an older set have now joined the queue it seems. They are on the front page, however with quite poor 40-60% ratings like BounchFX saw for his items. The front page seems to favor, items being voted on, not popular items. It's quite disheartening to see your overall set to crash from 90-95% to now -85%, lowering by the minute. I guess the queue system would be a lot like flicking TV channels. As a viewer you are forced to glimpse things they aren't really interesting in, so you keep clicking no/next until you hit something you are actually interesting in. Will this system give Valve a better real world rating of sets? Time will tell I guess.
It might also take into account that they are possibly focusing more on pos/neg ratings rather then the amount of ratings. That's just a guess though.
I think we have to keep in mind that sets or items don't automatically get in just based on votes. Votes and stats are useful tools for Valve to judge the interest of players but I really don't think that's the whole story ... At the end of the day someone at Valve still has to curate entries and take the decision of putting something in or not.
In short : the workshop voting system gives the players a certain illusion of control while providing useful stats, but maybe we shouldn't worry too much about it ?
Then again, who knows really ...
Although thats true, Valve also looks at what the players like and put items in accordingly. If Valve likes an item but the community doesn't, Valve probably won't put the item into the game. But if Valve doesn't like an item but the community loves it, they might put it into the game.
Also, +1 Fanbase
It is more about worrying how the people assigned by Valve chooses the stuff... (tinfoil hat on!)
On this subject :
While I can see some odd stuff happening when third parties/organisations are involved, it seems to me that this kind of situation happens much less with "regular" items. Now there is always the problem of quality items being forgotten and lost in limbo regardless of votes, but the queue system seems to have been designed to address this issue - so at the end of the day I feel like there is not much to be worried about really.
But of course only time will tell.
Votes are used as an excuse, at the very least, but still in a way that I can't seem to understand. We've had them turn down 95% 300-1000 rated rated stuff of ours before because 'not enough interest', and then have seen them accept 4* 100-200 vote rated items. Mystery for sure, hah. I think it's pretty much what you said though. If Valve likes + they think it will sell to consumers then it will get in (and exposure has a LOT to do with this..). If valve doesn't like but they still see it gaining popularity than they seem to as well in a lot of cases.
All I know is I see some very low quality items getting in rather often which makes me second guess their actual quality control (despite how strict they've made it seem to us in the past) in favor of popularity and earnings potential. I can't blame em, but it sure doesn't do the in-game art favors when stuff like that gets accepted. But hey, it's subjective and I'm only speaking for myself. If the player base as a whole likes it, that's the important part !
- Votes/likes
- Design, quality, does it look good in-game
- Difficulty of implementation (yes we can/no we can't/not yet)
...and probably a few more I've missed.
Those are some of the topics I think they would consider when choosing items and based on what's been accepted so far, we should have a good understanding of what's expected. I think when people have mentioned "You can only get something in if tourney/pro etc...", shouldn't affect their decision to implement or not. Decisions shouldn't be skewed based on who or what it's made for (and I don't think this is the case).
I've also recently come to the solid conclusion that the 'guidelines' can be bent (I was hoping that they couldn't be), a good example of this is some timber sets, a bunch of nyx sets, some jug sets etc... and I can't even count the number of accepted sets that have introduced new colors. So, I guess the main thing to consider when designing is that, as long as the character is recognisable, anything goes.
One last thing to ask, are they now expecting a loading screen to go with every set?
On another note, Konras has brought up a very good point. Under the new collection set option the page that players see in the queue system has 1 image ( most likely a loading screen), possible a youtube video (most people don't see to watch), and icons for the items in the set. It doesn't give the viewer much to judge your work on. I can't imagine people bother to click on an individual item to see the extra images/gifs etc.
It would be very nice if the collection page also included the ability to add list of extra images like the individual items can. This would allow us to only place those extra images on the collection page, and not on each and every individual item in the set.
-Toasty
I just want to repeat what Anuxi had to say. I agree with it.
The votes on the workshop are weird. I've never really felt like they actually mattered for getting stuff in game, but they do matter for workshop artists if they want to be recognized for what they've done by the general public.
A core function that's missing is a 'Follow author' button on item/collection pages.
Should be placed next to Thumbs up/down.
Valve could honestly gain a lot of traction I think if they'd just be open for like, a week with the Workshop community about how they choose things and what their actual goal with it is. Maybe making a system where artists don't just sit around hoping to get in, but actually have some kind of threshold of traffic/vote quality to reach. That way if you don't get in you at least know why.
They should do a Workshop project where the community redesigns the Workshop to work better. There seems to be a pretty strong consensus for a lot of the changes. Don't really see why Valve, short of random Valve reasons and secrecy would not want to do them.
When you submit an item or a set to Valve as part of a tournament ticket, or a chest, or anything that "forces" Valve to make some kind of statement regarding what's going on, that's when you get some insight into how the process works, or what they want.
I'm going to stay as vague as possible here to keep all parties involved somewhere in the grey unknown.
Sometimes, you'll get a message back with a confirmation that they're looking into a set. Sometimes that's all you hear, but sometimes they'll tell you that they're going to pass this around the office to get everyone's opinions. To me, this is somewhat reassuring because it implies it's not just a guy, or a couple of guys selecting stuff to get in, but something a bit more personal to the Dota 2 Family or "Valve" as we like to call them.
Sometimes you'll get feedback on why something wasn't chosen, and this is usually the only time you'll get feedback from Valve. I've heard about cosmetics being too similar to what a hero already looks like, or existing cosmetics. Sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't. When you stick to Valve's established guidelines, it's sometimes hard to distinguish one set from another at a glance, and a lot of times I get the feeling that they want us to push outside of that bubble.
Several times I've heard them express interest in seeing something more different, to go extravagant with something. I know that's vague, but I don't believe they mean just shapes here, but also colors. Now, this is going up against established guidelines, and there are presumably limits to what you can get away with. That being said, it really feels like they want to move away from the traditional color and form design they originally wanted to enforce.
Sometimes (and this is usually the only way you'll find out about this) you'll hear back that they're not looking for items for a specific hero at this time. In this case, Slardar. Would've never guessed that on my own, the guy is in serious need of new cosmetics. What the reason is, nobody but Valve knows, but in the meantime, some artists will be "wasting" a lot of man hours making Slardar stuff. Even if they're doing a model rework and want to keep sets coming in for maybe later evaluation, it seems more reasonable for people to create cosmetics around the final product...
All of the above is based on my experiences, and I realize I've had less experience than a lot of artists here. Some of it's my interpretation of the things I've heard and seen, so take it with a grain of salt.
Never put too much trust in a guy that says "Sometimes" that many times in one post! :poly124:
Who wants stats? XD
Here's a list of the raw data of every non-valve item since TI4, sorted by patch date (hopefully not missing anything): http://i.imgur.com/7gWd0Wj.png
October and November have been awful for independent artists! It's probably why it's been feeling cynical around here lately.
When you do a count for contributors:
- Normal artist submission: 32
- Submission with a tournament/organization: 49
- Submission with a pro-player/personality: 4
- Submission with Perfect World/Nexon: 18
When you sort the data by submission type, you can see the following breakdown:- Couriers: 7/12 attached to a tournament/organization/PW/Nexon. (Almost evenly split)
- Huds: 7/8 attached to a tournament/organization.
- Wards: 4/5 attached to a tournament/organization.
- Single Items: 16/16 attached to a tournament/organization/PW/Nexon.
When sorted by date range (From date of submission to the workshop to the patch where the item is released): http://i.imgur.com/YDEDGOh.png- Average number of days on the workshop before a set gets in game: 80.16 (Tossed out the empress naga set (710 days!!!) and the frozen emperor lich set, cuz data skewage.) There are 55 sets that have under 80 days, and out of those 11 are independent artist submissions.
- It looks like tournaments/organizations do get preferential treatment in getting into the game. The purples solidly occupy the top of the list, but are also pretty evenly scattered through the rest. I think this is because tournaments are on a deadline, and are also able to communicate with valve wrt item acceptability and direction. The scattering can be explained by their ability to cherry pick existing good sets that aren't yet in game and expedite the admittance process, at the cost of a x% cut of the profits.
- The bottom smattering of purple is because I couldnt actually find the item on the workshop. DotaCinema in particular, did not submit their most recent tournament items through the workshop. Going to point out SLTV Star Series Season 11 did the same thing as DotaCinema: their luna set was submitted to the workshop Oct.22, containing only the thumbnail file and no other screenshots or images. Then on Nov. 13, the day it was released in store, the workshop files were all edited to contain screenshots. Clearly, it also did not go through the proper submission procedure.
Other possible bits of interest:I honestly have to wonder if the amount of org work we've done in the past has had an impact on the amount of personal stuff I get accepted, because I do both often but it's very unbalanced. I haven't seen a single "personal" item get in since January (Not counting TI4 since that was a special case). On one hand, that's great of Valve to diversify, on the other I feel like I'm boning myself (the orgs have gotten the majority share almost every time). At the end of this month I will have 7 sets sitting in the workshop: five personal, two being pro sets.. so two still affiliated but no small number overall.
I really enjoyed helping and working with lots of different people but in the end, outside of an accelerated timeline I can't say it has been worth it. Especially if it has contributed to not getting any of my own sets in (speculation). We have been burned and misled far more times than not and the amount of time, work, and trust I put towards them makes me uncomfortable to think about, but it was a good lesson learned even if it did take close to a year to come to my current state of mind and feelings about it. I don't regret helping any of them out and it was wonderful meeting so many people.
However, seeing those numbers just kind of drives the point home for me that this workshop is slowly being shifted away from being artist focused and more towards benefiting those who aren't actually creating the content being sold. I think it would be wonderful if tournaments got sales for the tickets and artists for the sets, but this mixture just seems to lead to a lot of people getting taken advantage of, with everyone questioning where the real value is. Maybe it's a temporary thing and Valve will get back to putting in a majority of things from the independent workshop scene, plus an assload of singles if we are so lucky, hehe. I don't know but it sure is interesting as shit to follow and participate in. Apologies for all the text! I think about this stuff far too often, and hope that some may benefit from me spilling my thoughts all over the page about my experiences with the workshop.
Couldn't agree more, that's what I addressed strongly in my original feedback. This is the first and foremost issue Valve needs to solve before we touch single items and others. I'm certain we appreciate the effort if they communicate us in advance, before wasted effort is made.
I would like to see this broken down to how many sets per artists accepted. Or further analyse this before making that conclusion.
I love reading that data.
@Vayne: I have the stats you are looking for!
Artist distribution since TI4: http://i.imgur.com/wegXUzr.png
Artist distribution since Feb 2014: http://i.imgur.com/jcPoK9n.png
Artist distribution since Feb 2014 (colored by type): http://i.imgur.com/9lq7uRV.png
Artist distribution since Feb 2014 (filtered to sets only): http://i.imgur.com/AD4BZH5.png
The artists in the left most column have the most items added to the game. This stands out quite a bit in the second treemap. The third treemap, colored by type, shows that these artists have gotten a lot of singles in game. Don Don, Pearington Pear, and Red Moon Studios all got their own single items chests, which greatly inflates their counts.
@Bounchfx: You really have a lot of experience working with other organizations, and I'd love to pick your mind about it. It's interesting that the organizations usually get majority share - You guys are a very successful studio, you produce high quality content, and you should have a strong negotiating position. Since it's harsher for smaller/newer individuals to partner up (like Chiz said, with having to offer more %).... the effects of this tournament/organization favoritism is just that much stronger.
Ultimately though, chests and items affiliated with tournaments and organizations take away from opportunities for independent artists. There are less personal sets getting in for everyone.
More stats!
Average days on the workshop before going in game for normal submissions: 103.13 days.
Before the workshop changes can really kick in, I thought it might be interesting to see if there were any trends between upload time and acceptance in game. Honestly, this graph doesn't mean too much, when it can't be compared to the total number of items submitted on a that day. But if you're superstitious, upload your work on mondays! XD (Any idea why this trend would exist? Do Mondays tend to give you higher exposure?) I'm excited to see how it changes with the new workshop page. :O
oh, as a small note, Carty was also for an org (Dota Cinema), so in the second link we only really have one of our own item in since jan, and redpaw took over a year to get accepted. The shadow shaman TI4 might count as well? but that was done for Perfect World before they decided not to use it. Kinda makes me sick seeing how little I've done for myself heh.
I would be more than willing to have a chat if you'd like, feel free to PM me or add me on steam.
Thanks again for all your hard work putting this together.
That's for HUDs though. Not sure if the same is true of sets.
If you want more single items, produce more single items.
If you want orgs pay fair share for your work, dont do it under a certain cut. And it better be a fuckin good cut if you ask me. Cause you do the bloody work not one of those "I sell you exposure" rats
Your work has value, stand by it. They need you more than you need them, always remember that.
We, here at polycount dota2 are in a good position since we got a place where we can organise ourself, just boycott unfair organsizer offers. Let them see far they come with no artist doing anything. And if one artist does it, let them see how far he will come once hes the only one out there. workload is workload.
Turn the fuckin tide instead of just complaining about it. Its in your hand alone. It takes a bit of guts and a bit of patience but I bet we can make a statement.
Its always the same in all sectors of economy, almost looks like being taken advantage of is integrated in the mindset of the modern worker/employe/artist.
Make a difference, say NO!
Once there arent any sets left for valve to put ingame, they will surely notice all those juicy single items in the workshop. We are the content creators, without content no sale, fuck it, use your power!
Make a difference, say NO!
Thanks for the data!
Its kind of unnerving that there are as many set as singles that in game (if not more).
How did you get this data? Have you accumulated it through time?
Also I think right now more and more sets are denied for 3rd parties by Valve. That was the case with life stealer set for DC chest. Most of the times we are unable to even reach to such info, but it would be interesting to know the numbers for this. I can only tell that I have been approach by many organizations asking for sets because what they initially proposed was denied by Valve.
Soon most likely most 3rd parties will go straight to workshop instead of preparing any set in advance. Somehow for me that breaks clear line between individual and 3rd parties items.
Anyway all of this is interesting topic worth reading
Hatter union! I'm in! If I had a nickel for every time someone has told me "Yeah, it'll be free, but you can put it on your resume!", I could buy... more cosmetics!
@GhostDetector: Honestly, I might be in the minority here that doesn't really miss the disappearance of single items. ^_^; As a consumer, I'm more interested in clothes than weapons, and as an artist, I like making things I want to wear in game. Anyway, I got this information from the dota 2 wiki
@konras: ahhh, sorry. >.< Looks like I missed that entire chest. I'll edit that in so it can be in any future visualizations. Crap. Thanks for pointing that out, hopefully it's the only omission. >.<
Do you happen to know if the 3rd parties that get denied wanted to use a finished set? Or did they get approval/denial at an earlier concept stage?
Problem with the previous data: The treemap was case sensitive, so it didn't accurately represent the count of artists in game. There's a "redmoon studios" and a "Redmoon Studios" as separate entities, which explains where the Tang-Ki shaman set went.
Here are updated images: (fixed some problems, including carty)
Artist distribution since Feb 2014: http://i.imgur.com/Ap9wGpz.png
Artist distribution since Feb 2014 (filtered to sets only): http://i.imgur.com/vf6cmeo.png
So insignificant
It would be really awesome if these were uploaded in some other format, so we could ctrl+f through it, for fact checking or simple curiosity. But I'm not complaining, it's already great as it is. It would be nice to be able to get more collaboration on it, since there really isn't much transparency between us. Hatter union is, imo, way overdue.
"Honestly, I might be in the minority here that doesn't really miss the disappearance of single items. ^_^; As a consumer, I'm more interested in clothes than weapons, and as an artist, I like making things I want to wear in game. "
This makes me sad, but only because of the "I'm more interested in clothes than weapons" part. Singles SHOULD NOT mean weapons, but that seems to be all anyone ever does. I tried to do my best to bring in a majority of non-weapons into the singles we did, but I understand that a) consumers place more value in weapons it seems, and b) artists like creating them more/they are easier. It is unfortunate though that singles do seem to = weapons at this point. Maybe it's part of the reason Valve has stopped putting them in? /speculation
From what I know ( few info I got reading betwen the lines ) , they prepare chest a few in advance , and change them if necesary ; as we can see , they keep experimenting with the store.
I like the pricing for the sets vs chest from this patch . In my oppinion its made to give the chest value over time .
Ive learned some stufs the hard way this year(workshop, tournaments ,interaction with some of the most horrendus peoples like Marko from the Netolic ,and some others that I will not name ) , but I'm preety happy overall , and looking forward for the next year.
Btw. When I hear word UNIONS first thing I have in mind is a Detroit, or maybe what is left of it
I do, however, think that the sharing of information, more transparency, and initiatives like the recent "Pro Players looking for sets" thread by Anuxi, are all important. Not just to new workshoppers, but to give the environment some much needed stability in the long run.
I'm not saying all information should be public, but there are a lot of things that seem to pass for "common knowledge" among people who have been doing this for a long time, and people already in the industry outside of the workshop.
I started creating stuff for the workshop back in March/April of this year, during the whole favoritism and "single items are dead!" uprising. It was a really discouraging time to be joining the workshop, just as it probably is right now. There was a degree of hostility going around that I'm fortunately not seeing now, and understandable as that was, it made it difficult and intimidating to look for answers to questions like "What's a fair revenue share between artists and tournament organizers/organizations?"
If someone's going to stand up for themselves, or have the guts to make a statement, it helps to come properly informed when you step up to the plate. Right now, I feel like very few people are, and until that information becomes common knowledge, it's hard to expect anyone to do anything.
When it comes to the idea of undercutting, it's pretty easy to see why that would remain appealing to some people, regardless of common standards across any group of people. The workshop is a world-spanning environment, with people in varying economies, living conditions, and currency situations. What's fair and appealing to some could easily not be worth the effort for someone else.
I'm sorry for sounding negative, I really am. I just think some basic steps are needed to get started if we're looking to make any kind of lasting impact by making more unified decisions.
I think that if someone has contacts in the organizers "camp" it would be interesting to hear their side of the issue. What justifies the percentages they're offering etc. I always assume they have certain costs to cover to some extent, depending on the situation such as a tournament, but I don't know anything about running tournaments or pro-player organizations.
I'd also like to say that if anyone's got any questions about anything workshop related, I'm always happy to try to answer them. I don't have the experience that a lot of you guys have, but I'm trying to learn as I go, and contribute what I can in the process.
I highly agree with this. I'm all for single items if they are MUCH BETTER than what is in the workshop. I mean, no offense it's just my opinion, but there is about 4+ single item chests made by popular artists in the workshop. When I look at them, I really don't care or want them in the store because they are generally really "safe" in design. There are plenty of gems in the workshop, but I really hope if they do bring back single items, it won't be the community pre-made chests but hand picking individual single items from multiple artists.
I never realized this, but you are right! The best single items in my opinion are the ones for clothes just like the CM winter solstice fashion scarf. We used to get a lot of interesting Juggernaut mask designs as well. :poly136: I'm not really interested in boring Rubick staffs or beastmaster axes
(Unrelated anecdote: After Foxclover and I submitted our crystal maiden set, she was actually recognized in game! Some guy was like "i know you, my friends keep raving about your set! good luck getting in game!", etc. THE WARM AND FUZZIES!)
Anyway, there are some really good non-weapon singles in the workshop right now; zip's made this awesome pa cape and leshrac horns, and I am making the most desperate grabby hands at belkun's queen of pain wings. And for historic items, I'm still using snowstorm's cm hair all the time. Unfortunately though, these items are always the rare ones for the chests, while the weapons comprise the majority of the normal drops.
Do you guys think the TI4 immortals would've been as popular if they didnt have particle effects or new animations on every single one. If you stripped the immortals of the special things, would it be considered an interesting and popular chest? I don't see Valve allowing normal artists to create a singles chest where every item has a particle effect (esp not on a regular basis), and it'd be very hard to match the bar they set with a vanilla item. (Though I think the krob butterfly skirt would've been insanely successful without particles too)
What I really think would be great to come out of this is for artists to have a safe space to discuss things and ask questions... like a password protected forum, where only artists get access. It seems like people are hesitant to talk about their experiences working with organizations/tournaments, percentages, earnings, etc. and I wonder if that's because this is a public and open forum. The things we say here can have reaching ramifications.
Another thing is that... it's actually really intimidating to post here. u_u; It always seems so serious business; people stick to basically posting art and commenting on art. It sometimes feels like it would be intruding if i asked questions about irrelevant things. It was really surprising the first time i joined teh google hangout; you guys were totally different there than here on the polycount forums.
TALKING ABOUT THE WARM AND FUZZIES...!
I really do love making single items, like the challenge of creating something really unique whilst fitting all that into a single slot and yet having it blend in with other items and sets is a huge. It's much better for artistic development to quickly iterate over a few smaller items too. Singles are like indie games where game designers push artistic boundaries, whilst sets are like AAA games where developers can do epic stuff.
If Valve continues along the lines they've been going with immortal singles though, it'll just continue to get harder to make suitable single items, just as it's getting harder to make full sets as compared to singles. For e.g. I'd love to have a blink effect with flower particles on the QoP hair I did with Fox recently, but that just means yet another layer of complexity to work with.
As for the Google hangouts, yeah it's always been a super awesome place. The biggest downside to me has always been the 10 person limit. Not that it matters any more since when I log on there's usually no one on. I keep thinking that if there had been no active user limit that it might have grown to becoming as mainstream as this forum is. The hangouts kept me motivated and going through the whole Torchbearer month and is a big reason why I'm still doing all this stuff. I'm actually considering building a website that uses Twitch API to do something similar to the hangouts so we can have a hangout and twitch streams running at the same time without a user limit. All the chat can be done via a twitch group chat and if you don't want to be running a twitch stream that'd be fine too. I just don't know if anyone will use it any more. If only I'd thought of this a year ago.
To be honest, the sombre atmosphere here vs the hangouts and the constant doom and gloom recently is also such a downer. If anything, I think that drives away both newer and more experienced artists from posting here and contributing as much as the workshop developments do. Important as these topics are, reading all the negativity also really affects how much people want to continue doing our sort of work, participating in our sort of community. After reading Vayne's post about how he intended to stop soon I stopped to consider whether I wanted to continue working on Dota 2 stuff too. I'll definitely be continuing until at least the next International because I intend to attend though.
Every once in a while i'll read these threads and see other peoples stats on how many items they have in-game and feel like a sack of shit, but then i just try to remind myself im doing this for myself to get better. Not really making any point here, i guess just agreeing with the Doom and gloom mentality a little and self loathing etc etc, blah blah on my part.
Luckily i'm not relying on this for any kind of actual income.
its not that its even something rather unusual, people have organized themselves like this for centuries, this might be the internet but the same rules for jobs should apply. it might sound a bit funny at first but it is a serious idea for a serious issue. if ppl want to use our work or our work power and expertise we should stand by a few rules, off everybody is free and as said in my previous post everybody has to decide for themselves, I stand by what I said and believe deeply in the value of my work, may it be dota2 related or not, amateurish or professional, there will always be room to improve but time and dedication also have value. I deeply believe in the value and the relevance of creative work for our modern day society, no matter whats the specific surrounding. artists have most often been the looked down to, not really valued ppl in a lot of situations yet our work inspires, enlightens, creates emotions and all sorts of other essential human reactions. It satisfies a deep human need for expression. So that said, why go for less?! Go for more!
I think a free hatters union would be a good place to start to have some guidelines, for ourselves and for possible customers, it could also work to have people as representatives and contacts, to talk to valve or organizers and such. I think it could possibly strengthen our business. these are all just ideas being tossed out, some might work some might be too good to become true, idk. maybe we should start considering...
it might just an experiment but it might be one worthwhile.