I really don't want to join in on this conversation but I just have to call you out on that. These laws exist for a reason and we should be encouraging people to use them. To claim that victims do not have the responsibility to seek lawful retribution is in my eyes simply wrong. It's definitely not easy for the victim to seek justice, but it is the only way to ensure that the person accused of wrongdoing is actually guilty and that they are punished accordingly.
If you are not happy with how the legal system is approaching these issues then I encourage you that you campaign to change them. If you think the law is ineffective (and there are clearly many instances of when it is broken), then lets fix it. But while saying that we should "cultivate a culture that's able to see bullying and sexism and is able to call it out as bullshit" may seem noble, it results far too often in existence of self righteous mobs that cause as many problems as they claim to fix. The legal system has mechanisms to protect both the victim and the accused. Encouraging public to execute the punishment does not.
I don't believe that was saying that victims shouldn't seek legal redress, but that it's often futile to do so and many don't have they money for lawyers or the energy to fight it. Also, the call to cultivate culture isn't to execute punishment, it's to create a space where the victims aren't automatically blamed for what was done to them. Teaching people to understand these interactions and to stop saying things like "You must have provoked (him/her)," is at least as important as efforts to change the legal landscape, if not more so.
Example time! Most US schools have rules that say that if two people are in a physical fight, both must be punished equally. So if a bully punches me, we both get in the same amount of trouble unless I have multiple witnesses that can agree that I didn't defend myself (and even then, student witnesses are usually ignored/discounted). That's on top of the issue of being banned from defending one's self -- if I shoved the bully to get away from the fight and stop getting punched, I "fought" too, so I'd have to get the same punishment no matter what. There's not even legal redress for this. There's very little governing schools, and the few cases that get anywhere take several years to resolve. It's almost guaranteed that any kid in question will be out of that school in that time.
The laws for employment are also horrid. Let's look at wrongful termination, which is what you would file any time you want to say you were fired for an illegal reason. The last time someone I know tried to do this, the wrongful termination suit first gave the employer 24 months to offer the job back or otherwise rectify the problem. Do you have two years to sit around waiting to see if they fix the problem? Are you absolutely confident that they won't find other ways to seek retribution against you if you do accept the job? If you take a new job in the interim it can damage your case and if you don't accept your old job back if they offer it your case is over. So yes, that law should be changed. But in the interim, acknowledging that the system is strongly flawed and that there's not an equal opportunity for protection in the law is necessary to instigate change. If no one knows how much this sucks, they won't know to advocate for something better.
After reading through both comments again, I think my reply may sound too harsh. To clarify, I do not mean to imply that you encourage mobs to seek out justice outside of law. Instead, arguments such as yours are often used as a justification for online vigilantism.
I definitely agree that cultivating a culture that can recognize sexism and bullying is a good thing, but we have to be careful in how we call it out. Hence why I think we should encourage people to make use of the existing laws.
I just now saw this -- I'll let my original reply stand as it was since it was mostly focusing on how the existing laws are problematic. Thank you for the clarification!
I don't believe that was saying that victims shouldn't seek legal redress, but that it's often futile to do so and many don't have they money for lawyers or the energy to fight it. Also, the call to cultivate culture isn't to execute punishment, it's to create a space where the victims aren't automatically blamed for what was done to them. Teaching people to understand these interactions and to stop saying things like "You must have provoked (him/her)," is at least as important as efforts to change the legal landscape, if not more so.
Example time! Most US schools have rules that say that if two people are in a physical fight, both must be punished equally. So if a bully punches me, we both get in the same amount of trouble unless I have multiple witnesses that can agree that I didn't defend myself (and even then, student witnesses are usually ignored/discounted). That's on top of the issue of being banned from defending one's self -- if I shoved the bully to get away from the fight and stop getting punched, I "fought" too, so I'd have to get the same punishment no matter what. There's not even legal redress for this. There's very little governing schools, and the few cases that get anywhere take several years to resolve. It's almost guaranteed that any kid in question will be out of that school in that time.
The laws for employment are also horrid. Let's look at wrongful termination, which is what you would file any time you want to say you were fired for an illegal reason. The last time someone I know tried to do this, the wrongful termination suit first gave the employer 24 months to offer the job back or otherwise rectify the problem. Do you have two years to sit around waiting to see if they fix the problem? Are you absolutely confident that they won't find other ways to seek retribution against you if you do accept the job? If you take a new job in the interim it can damage your case and if you don't accept your old job back if they offer it your case is over. So yes, that law should be changed. But in the interim, acknowledging that the system is strongly flawed and that there's not an equal opportunity for protection in the law is necessary to instigate change. If no one knows how much this sucks, they won't know to advocate for something better.
I agree with most of the sentiments in your post. Unfortunately I wasn't quick enough in editing my previous post, but I've noticed that my initial reply was a bit too harsh and not clear enough. To clarify, I have no problems with cultivating such culture, but I've seen a lot of disagreement in different circles over what methods should be used to achieve that goal. There are calls to educate people, but there are also calls to shame people. The latter is one I take issue with, as it encourages online vigilantism that had become quite prevalent.
I cannot speak about the US laws as I do not live there, but I don't doubt that what you are saying is true. However, I think the best course of action is to improve these laws and encourage people to use them. I think that it is also a goal that many people can agree on, regardless of where they stand politically. Attempts to change culture are often a controversial topic, because it's not something that has easily measurable goals.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying, "Blame the victim" like it makes me right. At all. That's why I avoided those words -- it's putting *responsibility* on the victim which is wrong.
We need to all be responsible for ourselves, but it's important for us to also acknowledge that we can only be responsible for ourselves if we're given equal powers -- so we need equality first, and equality comes from education and constant vigilance. If nobody will listen to you, it doesn't matter how much you try to fight for your rights.
Replies
Example time! Most US schools have rules that say that if two people are in a physical fight, both must be punished equally. So if a bully punches me, we both get in the same amount of trouble unless I have multiple witnesses that can agree that I didn't defend myself (and even then, student witnesses are usually ignored/discounted). That's on top of the issue of being banned from defending one's self -- if I shoved the bully to get away from the fight and stop getting punched, I "fought" too, so I'd have to get the same punishment no matter what. There's not even legal redress for this. There's very little governing schools, and the few cases that get anywhere take several years to resolve. It's almost guaranteed that any kid in question will be out of that school in that time.
The laws for employment are also horrid. Let's look at wrongful termination, which is what you would file any time you want to say you were fired for an illegal reason. The last time someone I know tried to do this, the wrongful termination suit first gave the employer 24 months to offer the job back or otherwise rectify the problem. Do you have two years to sit around waiting to see if they fix the problem? Are you absolutely confident that they won't find other ways to seek retribution against you if you do accept the job? If you take a new job in the interim it can damage your case and if you don't accept your old job back if they offer it your case is over. So yes, that law should be changed. But in the interim, acknowledging that the system is strongly flawed and that there's not an equal opportunity for protection in the law is necessary to instigate change. If no one knows how much this sucks, they won't know to advocate for something better.
I just now saw this -- I'll let my original reply stand as it was since it was mostly focusing on how the existing laws are problematic. Thank you for the clarification!
I agree with most of the sentiments in your post. Unfortunately I wasn't quick enough in editing my previous post, but I've noticed that my initial reply was a bit too harsh and not clear enough. To clarify, I have no problems with cultivating such culture, but I've seen a lot of disagreement in different circles over what methods should be used to achieve that goal. There are calls to educate people, but there are also calls to shame people. The latter is one I take issue with, as it encourages online vigilantism that had become quite prevalent.
I cannot speak about the US laws as I do not live there, but I don't doubt that what you are saying is true. However, I think the best course of action is to improve these laws and encourage people to use them. I think that it is also a goal that many people can agree on, regardless of where they stand politically. Attempts to change culture are often a controversial topic, because it's not something that has easily measurable goals.
edit:
Just noticed your edit
We need to all be responsible for ourselves, but it's important for us to also acknowledge that we can only be responsible for ourselves if we're given equal powers -- so we need equality first, and equality comes from education and constant vigilance. If nobody will listen to you, it doesn't matter how much you try to fight for your rights.