The Amazing Atheist is the kind of guy who bases his life around intolerance and bragging about being kicked out of fast food establishments. He is basically a sentient neckbeard/fedora combo.
I don't like Anita, I think her videos are unbearably smug, dishonest, unfair and ignorant.
But that dude making the death threats? That dude, needs a very large kick in the backside. Every five seconds. Continually. Until he knocks it the hell off. Seriously, what a douche.
Everyone has an agenda. To deny someone's accurate points because you don't like their overall persona is counterproductive. Counter the argument.
I agree that she often plays the victim. Compare her to someone like Jade Raymond who undoubtedly gets death threats although likely not as many or as vile. But we hardly hear anything about Jade in that regard - she just keeps on trucking.
At the same time, yes it is a potential danger to multiple people so that should be taken into account. I'd like to think that I'd be steadfast enough to push through such an event, considering there are some core values on the line, but honestly... I'm not 100% sure I would. You don't accurately know how you respond to a situation until you're in it.
It's so ingrained in our culture and socially accepted and I'm glad I can be an active part in fighting generalization and misogynist beliefs. Massive actually cares about these things and I feel lucky to be part of a company like that.
This is good to hear.
If I started a game studio, I would want to establish a rule of zero tolerance for sexism or racism in the workplace.
I'm glad there's another studio that's gotten behind this idea before I did.
I believe the most important issue coming up will be how can the internet come to a balance with anonymity, yet consequences for an individual's actions.
Anonymity is here to stay, it will only get more popular and more secure. Any attempts to clamp down on it will only increase the speed with which people embrace the even more secure and anonymous options.
This whole controversy highlights the dangers of NOT being anon on the net.
Anonymity is here to stay, it will only get more popular and more secure. Any attempts to clamp down on it will only increase the speed with which people embrace the even more secure and anonymous options.
This whole controversy highlights the dangers of NOT being anon on the net.
I disagree, I think the controversy highlights how invulnerable anon are in an internet without rules and consequences. No way the future will allow the internet to stay anarchic. Even now there is SOPA and net neutrality. Only a matter of time until we'll be swiping ID's to access this place...
... But who knows, maybe I've been binging on a little too much Blade Runner.
People are surrendering their personal information and willingly attaching them to their real world identities so they can use facebook and other 'social' networking sites. That information is sold, analyzed, modeled and resold over and over. And even more complicated methods of information gathering are created, which feeds back into the whole cycle. The people pushing for less anonymity aren't doing it for 'social good' they are doing it for profit. They want to sell you.
I don't see facebook's strategies becoming a normalcy in the future for handling people's privacy. I think if anything, facebook is showing people where to draw the line.
Anonymity is resistance, but it can become just as evil as facebook, as witnessed in these past few months.
I'm really in the middle. Each side has it's merits, but also it's ugly step children. Really can only hope for some decent compromise.
This is good to hear.
If I started a game studio, I would want to establish a rule of zero tolerance for sexism or racism in the workplace.
I'm glad there's another studio that's gotten behind this idea before I did.
I think you should start from hiring people based solely on their skill.
Because when I see all those actions like "We will hire woman! Even if you don't know what are you doing it's ok! You don't even have to have breasts, you must have to believe you are woman!"
Of course is exaggerated, but when I saw what GNOME did, how much money they wasted and how little this accomplished for project (beyond pushing some abstract and unimaginable (for me) political agenda), I just can't bear it.
As for me personally. I'd rather like you will be racist and sexist and jerk to me, and being honest and straight with me about it, than trying to pretend and behave nice. You will win my respect by behaving as you would do normally. Even if you will be telling me every 2 mins I'm idiot. I will even like you.
As long as you are not treating my freedom, I will not threaten yours. Whatever you do besides that, I don't give a crap.
I think you should start from hiring people based solely on their skill.
Because when I see all those actions like "We will hire woman! Even if you don't know what are you doing it's ok! You don't even have to have breasts, you must have to believe you are woman!"
I guess it's impossible to be unbiased when hiring somebody and also have a quality standard, right? I guess all those awesome female devs who work at companies like Epic, Blizzard, etc. just complained to get their job.
As for me personally. I'd rather like you will be racist and sexist and jerk to me, and being honest and straight with me about it, than trying to pretend and behave nice. You will win my respect by behaving as you would do normally. Even if you will be telling me every 2 mins I'm idiot. I will even like you.
As long as you are not treating my freedom, I will not threaten yours. Whatever you do besides that, I don't give a crap.
So basically, you're fine with being treated like a lesser being as long as somebody gives their honest opinion with you? Well in that case, I'd like to say that this is probably the dumbest thing I've read all day, and that's saying something because I went to the comments section of clickbait material posted on /r/gaming today.
If somebody is doing something wrong, there are a plethora of ways you can correct them without coming off like an asshole. If somebody is treating you less than an equal, call them out on it or kick their ass. Doing otherwise is how you get taken advantage of.
As for me personally. I'd rather like you will be racist and sexist and jerk to me, and being honest and straight with me about it, than trying to pretend and behave nice.
this sentence makes me assume that you are a straight, white male. correct me if im wrong.
You know, I don't have to agree with everything Amazing Atheist says to agree with some of his points. What I am more interested about Anita cancelling her speech/lecture case, though, was; why the University didn't cancel it outright !!!? Was it supposed to be on the Campus ? I imagine maybe it's Communication class that invited her to come in and talk about it ? I don't know, but the University should be the very first one to come out and cancel it.
This is good to hear.
If I started a game studio, I would want to establish a rule of zero tolerance for sexism or racism in the workplace.
I think the complication is that sometimes racism/sexism is relative and subjective. One might see it as a teasing/flirting while another says it's sexual harassment. Or, one college tells another that he has trouble understanding him due to the other's 'accent', who replies 'I don't have an accent, you Asian might not be used to it, but we don't tolerate racism here.' (real life story here!).
I guess it's impossible to be unbiased when hiring somebody and also have a quality standard, right? I guess all those awesome female devs who work at companies like Epic, Blizzard, etc. just complained to get their job.
So basically, you're fine with being treated like a lesser being as long as somebody gives their honest opinion with you? Well in that case, I'd like to say that this is probably the dumbest thing I've read all day, and that's saying something because I went to the comments section of clickbait material posted on /r/gaming today.
I'm fine, because I don't give crap what people talk about (;. People talk so much, that I don't pay attention to it, unless it's something interesting. Well, that 's probabaly means I pay some attention at least.
I say it this way. I don't see any reason why would want pretned anything to me. Your freedom is at least as important as mine. So, as long as you don't try to restrict it, you can say whatever you want in any way you want. Why would I care, as long as you don't want to kick my teeth ?
this sentence makes me assume that you are a straight, white male. correct me if im wrong.
I'm fine, because I don't give crap what people talk about (;. People talk so much, that I don't pay attention to it, unless it's something interesting. Well, that 's probabaly means I pay some attention at least.
I say it this way. I don't see any reason why would want pretned anything to me. Your freedom is at least as important as mine. So, as long as you don't try to restrict it, you can say whatever you want in any way you want. Why would I care, as long as you don't want to kick my teeth ?
kind of my position on honesty too.
but people sometimes just look for reasons to get offended so they can rage out and let off steam to compensate for other shortcommings in their miserable lifes.
kind of my position on honesty too.
but people sometimes just look for reasons to get offended so they can rage out and let off steam to compensate for other shortcommings in their miserable lifes.
Haha, well it's probably impossible to prove over internet, but I'm really calm person. I can't honest say I don't remember when was last time I lost temper.
I'm fine, because I don't give crap what people talk about (;. People talk so much, that I don't pay attention to it, unless it's something interesting. Well, that 's probabaly means I pay some attention at least.
I say it this way. I don't see any reason why would want pretned anything to me. Your freedom is at least as important as mine. So, as long as you don't try to restrict it, you can say whatever you want in any way you want. Why would I care, as long as you don't want to kick my teeth ?
Well the problem is, what do you do when your freedoms ARE restricted? I'm not going to make an assumption about your gender, race, etc. but it sounds like you haven't exactly been in a position where you are restricted in one way or another because when that does happen, it is a pretty shitty feeling that is quite memorable.
Women for example, in the tech industry, are often assumed to be incompetent or lacking of skill before they even say or do anything. This often leads to situations where their ideas are thrown out the window or just blatantly ignored when working on a project. This doesn't happen to all women, but it does happen and that's where all this excessive political correctness comes from.
Women for example, in the tech industry, are often assumed to be incompetent or lacking of skill before they even say or do anything. This often leads to situations where their ideas are thrown out the window or just blatantly ignored when working on a project. This doesn't happen to all women, but it does happen and that's where all this excessive political correctness comes from.
what kind of argument is that? my ideas get rejected too, although i am white and male and whatever.
only because the ideas of a women might get rejected, doesn´t mean that they are rejected because she is a women.
what kind of argument is that? my ideas get rejected too, although i am white and male and whatever.
only because the ideas of a women might get rejected, doesn´t mean that they are rejected because she is a women.
I never said if a woman gets her ideas rejected, it's because she's a woman.
Have you ever been in a situation where you'll provide a detailed solution to a problem only to have nobody say anything, or somebody might just say "Sorry, no."? Those are the situations I'm talking about.
If somebody makes an attempt to understand your idea or even provide a technical reason as to why the idea is flawed, then sure, that's perfectly acceptable. But if you've ever been discriminated against, you'd know when it's happening simply because you'd get no explanation, you'd get ignored, you could get laughed at, etc.
I didn't believe any of this stuff was actually real until I saw it happening to my sister who is a software engineer.
Have you ever been in a situation where you'll provide a detailed solution to a problem only to have nobody say anything, or somebody might just say "Sorry, no."?
I never said if a woman gets her ideas rejected, it's because she's a woman.
Have you ever been in a situation where you'll provide a detailed solution to a problem only to have nobody say anything, or somebody might just say "Sorry, no."? Those are the situations I'm talking about.
If somebody makes an attempt to understand your idea or even provide a technical reason as to why the idea is flawed, then sure, that's perfectly acceptable. But if you've ever been discriminated against, you'd know when it's happening simply because you'd get no explanation, you'd get ignored, you could get laughed at, etc.
I didn't believe any of this stuff was actually real until I saw it happening to my sister who is a software engineer.
Congratz. You pretty much described IT industry in nutshell. Regardless if you are woman, man, shemale, trans, or whatever you think you are.
Women for example, in the tech industry, are often assumed to be incompetent or lacking of skill before they even say or do anything. This often leads to situations where their ideas are thrown out the window or just blatantly ignored when working on a project. This doesn't happen to all women, but it does happen and that's where all this excessive political correctness comes from.
Are you just supposed to ignore that too?
It happens to everyone. Just because you believe you are woman (or other thing), doesn't give you right to demand that your idea will be reviewed over all others.
Gratz you have idea. So does 129837 other people. And their ideas are also rejected.
It happens to everyone. Just because you believe you are woman (or other thing), doesn't give you right to demand that your idea will be reviewed over all others.
I don't understand where you are getting this from. As I have stated twice now, I am not saying that if you are a woman, your idea should be accepted every time.
How about the classic situation where a woman, or other discriminated person, shoots an idea to everybody else, is completely ignored, then has his/her idea implemented with no credit given to them? I'm guessing your solution to that would be to say "lol whatever" because apparently you really don't care if somebody takes advantage of you. Are you one of those developers that kisses the ass of anybody that is even slightly more skilled than them also?
I'm basically done with this thread though, you clearly have no intention of even imagining what it would be like to be in somebody else's shoes, most likely because you have never been discriminated against. I refuse to believe that somebody who HAS experienced any kind of discrimination, especially workplace discrimination, would not understand the issue that currently surrounds women (and other groups of people that are discriminated against) in the tech industry.
In the rare case that you are trying to understand anything being said, ask yourself if you'd be better off in the industry as a man or a woman (or any other type of person that is discriminated against.)
I don't understand where you are getting this from. As I have stated twice now, I am not saying that if you are a woman, your idea should be accepted every time.
How about the classic situation where a woman, or other discriminated person, shoots an idea to everybody else, is completely ignored, then has his/her idea implemented with no credit given to them? I'm guessing your solution to that would be to say "lol whatever" because apparently you really don't care if somebody takes advantage of you. Are you one of those developers that kisses the ass of anybody that is even slightly more skilled than them also?
I'm basically done with this thread though, you clearly have no intention of even imagining what it would be like to be in somebody else's shoes, most likely because you have never been discriminated against. I refuse to believe that somebody who HAS experienced any kind of discrimination, especially workplace discrimination, would not understand the issue that currently surrounds women (and other groups of people that are discriminated against) in the tech industry.
In the rare case that you are trying to understand anything being said, ask yourself if you'd be better off in the industry as a man or a woman (or any other type of person that is discriminated against.)
you are not listening either, so this conversation makes no sense.
yes women might be taken advantege of, but so is everybody else.
now let me ask you this, what would you do to change this?
if say, a certain percentage of new ideas that get implemented, hat to be as high as the percentage of women in the workforce do you think that would solve the problem? don´t you think people would discriminate women even more "her ideas only got taken because shes a women" etc.
or are all men in the tech industry just sexist pigs that need to go?
you are not listening either, so this conversation makes no sense.
yes women might be taken advantege of, but so is everybody else.
now let me ask you this, what would you do to change this?
if say, a certain percentage of new ideas that get implemented, hat to be as high as the percentage of women in the workforce do you think that would solve the problem? don´t you think people would discriminate women even more "her ideas only got taken because shes a women" etc.
or are all men in the tech industry just sexist pigs that need to go?
what is your solution to this supposed problem?
What does any of this have to do with percentages? The problem at hand is simple: Women, or other discriminated groups, can give solid ideas but there are situations where they will not be credited or they will be ignored solely on the basis that they are a woman or of a certain group, and sometimes their ideas are then taken and presented by another person who is then given all the credit.
The solution? Well, why do people take advantage of others? I'm guessing a couple of things could be done. For starters, if you are part of a team and have the knowledge/skills to make meaningful decisions for something but are constantly ignored, then step up and demand explanation for it. Maybe you could be ignored due to not understanding something, or maybe a solid plan was already chosen, etc. If you are not being discriminated against, then try to understand that not everybody is in that boat.
If a team has female developers there is no expectation that they should take ideas from them simply because they are female, again, this would be the third time I've clarified this, I don't know how I can make this any clearer but it seems like that is how my post is being understood as. I'm simply saying, ideas from female developers, or from developers of groups that are discriminated against, should weigh no less and no more than those of anybody else of equal knowledge/skill 100% of the time. Is that really so much to ask for?
Maybe a TL;DR would make things clearer since there appears to be some mis-communication going on:
1.) Learn to respect yourself if you feel others are taking advantage of you. You aren't a lesser being than anybody else because at the end of the day, everybody is human.
I don't understand where you are getting this from. As I have stated twice now, I am not saying that if you are a woman, your idea should be accepted every time.
How about the classic situation where a woman, or other discriminated person, shoots an idea to everybody else, is completely ignored, then has his/her idea implemented with no credit given to them? I'm guessing your solution to that would be to say "lol whatever" because apparently you really don't care if somebody takes advantage of you. Are you one of those developers that kisses the ass of anybody that is even slightly more skilled than them also?
I'm basically done with this thread though, you clearly have no intention of even imagining what it would be like to be in somebody else's shoes, most likely because you have never been discriminated against. I refuse to believe that somebody who HAS experienced any kind of discrimination, especially workplace discrimination, would not understand the issue that currently surrounds women (and other groups of people that are discriminated against) in the tech industry.
In the rare case that you are trying to understand anything being said, ask yourself if you'd be better off in the industry as a man or a woman (or any other type of person that is discriminated against.)
Technically speaking, in corporate world you don't have right to be given credit to anything you done.
You are in your work time, owned by company. Anything you do, is owned by company.
If you have been given credit, it is goodwill of corporation. Not something you have right to.
If you want to be appreciated by your work in person, you should start your own business.
Or start shooting people in suits.
Whatever suits you better.
For starters, if you are part of a team and have the knowledge/skills to make meaningful decisions for something but are constantly ignored, then step up and demand explanation for it. Maybe you could be ignored due to not understanding something, or maybe a solid plan was already chosen, etc. If you are not being discriminated against, then try to understand that not everybody is in that boat.
okay so why would that not apply to a women the same way it would apply to me?
how do i know if i am beeing discriminated against? do the people tell you that they don´t take your idea because you are female or are you just assuming that?
I'm simply saying, ideas from female developers, or from developers of groups that are discriminated against, should weigh no less and no more than those of anybody else of equal knowledge/skill 100% of the time. Is that really so much to ask for?
i´ll just take your statemant as it is, and assume that there is a problem.
i have witnessed all kinds of bullshiterry in the corporate world, but none of that ever had anything to do with gender or race.
its just a tough place for everyone at times.
and yeah thats bad, but thats just the way it is, and if you want to change that, then complaining on the internet wont help.
as suggested if you realy think its that bad, probably the only way to change that is to start a company and lead as an example.
I think Goeddy is right, everyone should by now know that there's no shortages of people who act like an ass in the tech industry, and all the other professions we work with.
That one of these tech-illiterate people dismisses legitimately good ideas or steal them isn't proof of anything other than that particular person being an ass. It's happened a million times to men, it's happening a million times to women, and eventually it'll happen a million times to any other gender.
Having someone just be an ass and then claiming it's sexism is, at best, jumping the gun, and at worst shows narcissistic tendencies.
haha negevpro is trying to swim upstream in a river of ignorence.
dudes, serously, what you are saying is basically; "i dont belive there is discrimination against women or other minoritys in the tech industry, because im a white male, and ive never been discriminated."
dudes, serously, what you are saying is basically; "i dont belive there is discrimination against women or other minoritys in the tech industry, because im a white male, and ive never been discriminated."
sort of correct, i don´t think discrimination in the tech industry is such a common occurence as you ought it to be, because of all the women i know in my industry none have ever complained about beeing victim of such things.
ofcourse there might be discrimination somewhere in the industry, there probably always is something like that happening here or there.
but its not like we are deaf and blind, when stuff like this happens people talk about it.
sort of correct, i don´t think discrimination in the tech industry is such a common occurence as you ought it to be, because of all the women i know in my industry none have ever complained about beeing victim of such things.
No, they haven't complained to you. If I know someone doesn't believe discrimination exists, and is going to dismiss my experiences and say things like, "Oh, that happens to everyone, suck it up," I'm not going to talk to them about it. I'll talk to someone who will actually listen and not automatically be dismissive.
they wouldn´t talk to me about it because i am a sexist asshole, thanks for jumping to conclusions.
i´ll just say im not and thats all i can do, believe it or not.
keep on living in your perceived world where everytime a males idea gets rejected its cause hes stupid and if its a female in his stead its mysoginy.
You've repeatedly said that discrimination against women isn't happening and that everyone has their ideas dismissed. How is my pointing that out and deliberately not judging that equal to jumping to conclusions or calling you sexist or an asshole? If those things make you a sexist asshole in your mind perhaps you should reconsider your position.
My entire point was that I wouldn't ever talk to you if I had a problem where I felt I was being discriminated against based on what you've said here. If you've said similar things that were either in front of female colleagues or got back to them from other people, it's likely they'd never tell you either. This is especially true because you take statements that are repeatedly clarified to point out that it's something that sometimes happens and you insist that people are saying that it's always true. If you can't even tell the difference between sometimes and always when people are writing things to you and you can refer back to what was said...
I had a good friend once who would often say that child abuse was overblown because he never knew anyone that had been abused as a kid. I also knew that several of our mutual friends had been abused as kids as they had confided in me about it. They just never talked to him about it because he kept saying it wasn't happening and didn't exist every time the subject came up, even tangentially. If you said blue paint wasn't real and I had a gallon of it dumped on me, I wouldn't talk to you about that either.
it looks like you are refusing to understand what i am trying to say.
yes i think most of the negative things that happen to women, done by men, are seen as being mysoginy when most of it is just good old genderneutral assholeness. that does not mean i dont believe in the existance of sexism.
Women for example, in the tech industry, are often assumed to be incompetent or lacking of skill before they even say or do anything. This often leads to situations where their ideas are thrown out the window or just blatantly ignored when working on a project. This doesn't happen to all women, but it does happen and that's where all this excessive political correctness comes from.
now if you were to replace the word "often" with "sometimes" i´d have no problem with that statement whatsoever.
but all i am getting back is accusations and insisting on what a massive global problem that is and how i am too blind to see it.
you clearly have no intention of even imagining what it would be like to be in somebody else's shoes, most likely because you have never been discriminated against. I refuse to believe that somebody who HAS experienced any kind of discrimination, especially workplace discrimination, would not understand the issue that currently surrounds women (and other groups of people that are discriminated against) in the tech industry.
now if you were to replace the word "often" with "sometimes" i´d have no problem with that statement whatsoever.
Exactly.
First of all, let's (try and?) establish a fact of life. We all experience situations at work on a fairly regular basis that are frustrating and make us feel like we're being treated unfairly to one degree or another. Maybe you put forward an idea that get's shot down (ouch). Or maybe some guy who's a real jerk get's a promotion that you felt you were much better suited to (grrr).
Just to be clear, I don't doubt that when you are a female dev there ARE times when unfair things DO happen because of sexism. And I don't mind saying in those cases, go for the jugular feminists, I'm all for it (and I'm pretty sure you'd find most people here at polycount would agree).
But sometimes when stuff doesn't go the way you want it to at work it doesn't have anything to do with your gender or sexual orientation (or anything else that you feel might be causing people to discriminate against you). Sometimes it's just life being life where you don't always get everything you want exactly how you want it every single time.
This is why SOMETIMES it can be frustrating when I listen to and read some of the things being said by people who are aggressively feminist. SOMETIMES it's like they're saying "every time a female feels like she's being treated unfairly it's because of sexism so therefore there should be some sort of politically correct machinery that activates and forcefully manipulates the workplace environment so that things always go the way she wanted them to".
Pardon my bluntness, but that sounds pretty sexist to me. Why should females be granted diplomatic immunity from the day to day frustration of not always having things go the way you want them to?
I'll be even more blunt. Over the years I've worked with a wide range of female coworkers and I don't remember any of them being the sort of person who would want that sort of unfair advantage. And yet this seems to be exactly what some people in modern feminism are demanding.
So my advice is, look after each other at work and when someone gets treated unfairly, band together and stick up for them regardless of their gender. And beware of celebrity activists who claim to have the best interests of women at heart, some of them are just grandstanding narcissists who will say anything and do anything to gain notoriety and attention.
Having said that, I'm no genius so feel free to pick apart everything I've said - I'm happy to change my mind if my mind if someone can come up with a compelling argument to do so.
This is going to be a little out of order, because I want to get to the most important thing first. Also, I'm not getting in-depth on everything, because I'm sick and it takes a stupid amount of effort to focus on this stuff.
now if you were to replace the word "often" with "sometimes" i´d have no problem with that statement whatsoever.
but all i am getting back is accusations and insisting on what a massive global problem that is and how i am too blind to see it.
This right here? This is where the big breakdown in communication is happening. There are two aspects. #1 is in the "massive global problem" phrase and #2 is "often/sometimes". I'm going to break those down a little in a second. I want to also note that I'm trying very hard not to attribute anything to people that they haven't clearly said and I'm trying to use the actual words they did as often as possible.
1) Almost all communication about widespread phenomena should have an implied "in my culture/subculture/personal experience" tacked on to it. I have no idea what the degree of systematic or personal bias is in places I've never been, and I certainly don't think that sexism is equally distributed across the globe. I can only speak to how it is in the US and Australia, because those are the only places I've lived. Even then my personal experiences are obviously limited. While I have studied the subject a lot -- at university I studied sociology with an emphasis on sex/gender, but it wasn't anthropology. In other words, my training is to examine it in my culture, not someone else's.
That said, I want to emphasize that even if people are saying that sexism is literally a "massive global problem" they aren't necessarily saying that it's equally a problem everywhere. If I make a peanut butter sandwich but only spread the peanut butter thickly over 3/4 of the bread and have it very thin over the other 1/4, I'm not going to bother calling it a peanut butter sandwich except for that one part that didn't get enough peanut butter and is kind of dry but whatever. I'm just going to call it a peanut butter sandwich.
2) The word "often" seems like it's being rounded off a lot. I generally consider it to be just a little bit above "sometimes". It seems that many people are considering it to be on the level of "almost always". Now, some of this is also going to vary by location -- it might happen often in one country (or state, or city) and rarely in another.
it looks like you are refusing to understand what i am trying to say.
Alternatively, you aren't communicating as well as you think you are. I'm pretty sure there's mixes of both those things for everyone here. If I wasn't trying to understand I'd have stuck to my earlier statement of not posting in here again.
yes i think most of the negative things that happen to women, done by men, are seen as being mysoginy when most of it is just good old genderneutral assholeness. that does not mean i dont believe in the existance of sexism.
There is no shortage of assholes in the world, that's something I'm sure we can all agree on. The vast majority of women don't assume that men being assholes is automatically misogynistic or even that women being assholes isn't -- I've known some astoundingly misogynistic women. It's different, though, when it's disproportionately targeted toward women, or accompanied by little nicknames like 'sweetheart' or 'babe', or some guy who always talks to women's chests, etc.
If a guy is an ass to men 10% of the time that he deals with them and to women 75% of the time he deals with them, a lot of guys tend to say, "But he's a jerk to everyone sometimes!" Women, myself included, tend to get pretty defensive at those sorts of statements, because we notice when the proportions are different. That's part of what I was getting at when I said that it's unlikely that women you know personally would confide in you about those things happening. Really, though, any indication that you think that sexism is usually blown out of proportion will make it substantially less likely that someone would confide in you about it. It's exhausting enough to have to deal with the sexism without having to convince someone that it really happened. If there's any doubt about one person believing something bad happened to you and there's someone else around that you definitely know won't doubt it, who would you go to with a problem?
There are times when discrimination is painfully clear though. A personal example: I once went shopping in a barely-upscale store. It's a chain, but it's a snobby chain. I was trying to get the attention of the woman working there. I was literally tapping her on the shoulder while I said excuse me, and she completely ignored me. Never looked over, never stopped what she was doing, just... nothing. I may as well have been an actual ghost. Every other customer that came in she said hello to, and she helped a few of them get things. Now, it's possible she just decided to ignore every 10th person that walked in or something like that, but it's unlikely, especially since I had a distinct difference in personal appearance to the people she did speak to. Not precisely sexism since I can't think of any concisely painfully obvious examples of that off of the top of my head, but not equal-access assholishness either. Unfortunately, bias is one of those things that is incredibly difficult to prove, and that's one of the main reasons these sorts of conversations break down.
This is why SOMETIMES it can be frustrating when I listen to and read some of the things being said by people who are aggressively feminist. SOMETIMES it's like they're saying "every time a female feels like she's being treated unfairly it's because of sexism so therefore there should be some sort of politically correct machinery that activates and forcefully manipulates the workplace environment so that things always go the way she wanted them to".
Pardon my bluntness, but that sounds pretty sexist to me. Why should females be granted diplomatic immunity from the day to day frustration of not always having things go the way you want them to?
It's an extreme minority at best that wants things like that. Based on what I've seen happening here most of it is misunderstanding and hearing "I want people to not be biased assholes" as "I want to be protected from all assholes". (Frankly, I think all of us would like assholes to knock it off, but that's still not looking for special treatment.) The vast majority of feminists strongly want equal treatment for everyone. And it's pretty frustrating when an environment looks like it's full of sharks with razor blades for skin because people are reacting to the extremist minority views (or even views that no one is advocating). I'm strongly feminist because, as I said above, I want equitable treatment across the board. I'm also strongly against any other type of bias that causes anyone to be judged on anything other than whether or not they'd do well at a job (if you're hiring them or working with them) or whether or not you get along with them (if you're making friends or hanging out).
Stick with me to the end of this paragraph. As to social machinery to protect people and forcibly change workplaces, that is sometimes necessary to combat people who absolutely won't stop being racist, sexist, etc. This is mostly because it's nearly impossible to prove that the bias exists on an individual level. Example: There have been numerous studies in the US demonstrating that you can send identical resumes to open job positions but change the name on top -- "ethnic" sounding names and clearly female names aren't even contacted or are told the job isn't available in a disturbing number of cases, but the more mainstream or more commonly male names are called for interviews. Sometimes they'll happen in exactly that order. But short of carrying out that study yourself when you're looking for a job, you can't prove why you weren't hired or weren't called back. Even then, it's easy for a company to lie and say, "Oh, we thought they were asking about some other job," or whatever. I don't know of any better ways to combat that sort of insidious practice.
Shorter version: pretty much no one wants special treatment. We just want the "special" (meaning bad) treatment to stop. I want to know that if someone ignores me, it's because they're a complete jerk, not just a jerk to me because of whatever factor. I want to be able to walk alone at night without that being seen as an "invitation". I want to know that I'm being given equal consideration when I'm applying to jobs. I also want to know that I can both go to work where I want to and publicly state that I think everyone should be treated equally while being certain I won't get death threats or rape threats and that my family won't be targeted or hurt over it. I really don't think that's too much to ask.
If a guy is an ass to men 10% of the time that he deals with them and to women 75% of the time he deals with them, a lot of guys tend to say, "But he's a jerk to everyone sometimes!"
Sheesh, I must've had a good run with jobs. All the places I've worked if a guy singled out females like that the other males (including me) would've probably lynched him.
Example: There have been numerous studies in the US demonstrating that you can send identical resumes to open job positions but change the name on top -- "ethnic" sounding names and clearly female names aren't even contacted or are told the job isn't available in a disturbing number of cases, but the more mainstream or more commonly male names are called for interviews.
I hate the idea of someone having their hard work to get where they are disregarded unfairly but I find it difficult to trust stories about studies like that. I've argued on and off for years with different people of various political and ethical persuasions and the one common characteristic I've seen across all of them (right vs left, religious vs atheist etc etc) is the propensity to gravitate towards stories that over simplify difficult problems in a way that supports their pre-existing bias.
Not saying it didn't happen mind you, just saying I've seen enough activist fudging of the truth to not blindly trust stuff like that without digging into it deeper and checking the track record and character of the people making the claims.
Having said that, thank you for your patience explaining stuff from your point of view. It's making me think about these things more than I normally would, and question what I believe and why (which is cool with me).
Example: There have been numerous studies in the US demonstrating that you can send identical resumes to open job positions but change the name on top -- "ethnic" sounding names and clearly female names aren't even contacted or are told the job isn't available in a disturbing number of cases, but the more mainstream or more commonly male names are called for interviews.
Just want to point out that this really depends on the industry and type of job. Over these past several years trying to find various, halfway decent paying "normal" day jobs (as in, not flipping burgers) while learning art at home - almost all of the time I've wound up losing out to women, because the types of jobs I was applying to are dominated by them (many office "desk" jobs, anything clerical, book keeping, library work, insurance companies, etc).
I'm not arguing against your overarching point, and I certainly wouldn't be surprised if higher paying/management roles followed a pattern similar to what your mentioned studies discovered. I just wanted to point out that when it comes to simply finding a job to pay the bills - being a girl isn't always a bad thing. I'd probably have an easier time getting a tech support job - my wife would probably have an easier time getting a clerical type job. In that case, hers would probably pay more, though (based on personal experience).
...of course, would my wife have a higher chance of getting harassed at her clerical type job that paid a bit more than me at my tech support job that paid a little less? Absolutely. :poly122:
That's part of what I was getting at when I said that it's unlikely that women you know personally would confide in you about those things happening. Really, though, any indication that you think that sexism is usually blown out of proportion will make it substantially less likely that someone would confide in you about it. It's exhausting enough to have to deal with the sexism without having to convince someone that it really happened. If there's any doubt about one person believing something bad happened to you and there's someone else around that you definitely know won't doubt it, who would you go to with a problem?
that behavior makes no sense to me.
when you have a problem and you always talk to the people who will aggree with you anyway, you will never find the true cause of the problem and you will never fix the problem, you will just isolate your thinking and obsess about your perceived version of reality.
if you want to change the way things are you can not be affraid of confrontation.
if its something at the job like say your boss, who would fire you when you speak up, you won´t help yourself by just accepting that and then raging about it in secret your whole life.
anyhow i don´t think any of the women i´ve known in the industry know about my stance on sexism, because it never was an issue, so we never talked about it.
Bullying in schools still happens because often when people speak up it just means more punishment. Teachers are often too deep in the thick of it to actually realise what they're seeing is bullying.
Same thing with women in the workplace. You can confront people, but what happens when the boss does something illegal, like firing you? You really think all the people this happens to will go to court?
These aren't issues that get solved by putting the responsibility onto the victim of the bad behaviour.
We need to educate people to cultivate a culture that's able to see bullying and sexism and is able to call it out as bullshit. And when we've got that culture, we need to nurture that motherfucker or in 10 years it'll go to shit in all the same ways that in today's world "PC" and "feminism" and "equality" have anything but positive reactions.
Same thing with women in the workplace. You can confront people, but what happens when the boss does something illegal, like firing you? You really think all the people this happens to will go to court?
These aren't issues that get solved by putting the responsibility onto the victim of the bad behaviour.
I really don't want to join in on this conversation but I just have to call you out on that. These laws exist for a reason and we should be encouraging people to use them. To claim that victims do not have the responsibility to seek lawful retribution is in my eyes simply wrong. It's definitely not easy for the victim to seek justice, but it is the only way to ensure that the person accused of wrongdoing is actually guilty and that they are punished accordingly.
If you are not happy with how the legal system is approaching these issues then I encourage you that you campaign to change them. If you think the law is ineffective (and there are clearly many instances of when it is broken), then lets fix it. But while saying that we should "cultivate a culture that's able to see bullying and sexism and is able to call it out as bullshit" may seem noble, it results far too often in existence of self righteous mobs that cause as many problems as they claim to fix. The legal system has mechanisms to protect both the victim and the accused. Encouraging public to execute the punishment does not.
edit:
After reading through both comments again, I think my reply may sound too harsh. To clarify, I do not mean to imply that you encourage mobs to seek out justice outside of law. Instead, arguments such as yours are often used as a justification for online vigilantism.
I definitely agree that cultivating a culture that can recognize sexism and bullying is a good thing, but we have to be careful in how we call it out. Hence why I think we should encourage people to make use of the existing laws.
I hate the idea of someone having their hard work to get where they are disregarded unfairly but I find it difficult to trust stories about studies like that. (snipped for space)
I'll see if I can find any of the original studies, but I can make no promises. I generally do try to investigate which biases the researchers have on things like that (acknowledging here that everyone has biases and as much as people like to pretend, they can't eliminate them entirely when doing research). You're also quite right that many people like to use research results in skewed ways. I do my best to avoid that, but it isn't always possible I'm sure. One thing I like about the studies with the names is that it's more of an example of how a problem manifests than an explanation of a large problem. Bias tends to be rather hard to pin down with concrete and repeatable examples.
Having said that, thank you for your patience explaining stuff from your point of view. It's making me think about these things more than I normally would, and question what I believe and why (which is cool with me).
That is absolutely my pleasure, and thank you for the same! I believe it's important to think through why one believes what they do and I enjoy the opportunity to do it. I'm glad others get to do so too!
Just want to point out that this really depends on the industry and type of job. (snipped for space)
That's a very good point. Traditionally "female" jobs, especially ones such as nursing, teaching younger children, and clerical jobs will often end up generating discrimination toward men who want to work in those roles. Really especially nursing -- I've heard some unpleasant stories there. It's definitely worth pointing out situations where the discrimination is consistently reversed.
when you have a problem and you always talk to the people who will aggree with you anyway, you will never find the true cause of the problem and you will never fix the problem, you will just isolate your thinking and obsess about your perceived version of reality.
I never said it was always wise, I said it's what people do.
Replies
I like this guy already. Thanks for link!
But that dude making the death threats? That dude, needs a very large kick in the backside. Every five seconds. Continually. Until he knocks it the hell off. Seriously, what a douche.
I agree that she often plays the victim. Compare her to someone like Jade Raymond who undoubtedly gets death threats although likely not as many or as vile. But we hardly hear anything about Jade in that regard - she just keeps on trucking.
At the same time, yes it is a potential danger to multiple people so that should be taken into account. I'd like to think that I'd be steadfast enough to push through such an event, considering there are some core values on the line, but honestly... I'm not 100% sure I would. You don't accurately know how you respond to a situation until you're in it.
If I started a game studio, I would want to establish a rule of zero tolerance for sexism or racism in the workplace.
I'm glad there's another studio that's gotten behind this idea before I did.
There have been other threats to people besides Anita, such as:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2789937/female-game-developer-forced-flee-home-twitter-user-publishes-address-threatens-rape-kill-criticised-video-game-group.html
The whole situation seems like a cluster fuck.
Way to draw the line guys.
Anonymity is here to stay, it will only get more popular and more secure. Any attempts to clamp down on it will only increase the speed with which people embrace the even more secure and anonymous options.
This whole controversy highlights the dangers of NOT being anon on the net.
Yes, it seems like people have chosen to forget that there are groups of dedicated trolls who take their craft extremely seriously.
I disagree, I think the controversy highlights how invulnerable anon are in an internet without rules and consequences. No way the future will allow the internet to stay anarchic. Even now there is SOPA and net neutrality. Only a matter of time until we'll be swiping ID's to access this place...
... But who knows, maybe I've been binging on a little too much Blade Runner.
Anonymity is resistance.
Anonymity is resistance, but it can become just as evil as facebook, as witnessed in these past few months.
I'm really in the middle. Each side has it's merits, but also it's ugly step children. Really can only hope for some decent compromise.
I think you should start from hiring people based solely on their skill.
Because when I see all those actions like "We will hire woman! Even if you don't know what are you doing it's ok! You don't even have to have breasts, you must have to believe you are woman!"
Of course is exaggerated, but when I saw what GNOME did, how much money they wasted and how little this accomplished for project (beyond pushing some abstract and unimaginable (for me) political agenda), I just can't bear it.
As for me personally. I'd rather like you will be racist and sexist and jerk to me, and being honest and straight with me about it, than trying to pretend and behave nice. You will win my respect by behaving as you would do normally. Even if you will be telling me every 2 mins I'm idiot. I will even like you.
As long as you are not treating my freedom, I will not threaten yours. Whatever you do besides that, I don't give a crap.
So basically, you're fine with being treated like a lesser being as long as somebody gives their honest opinion with you? Well in that case, I'd like to say that this is probably the dumbest thing I've read all day, and that's saying something because I went to the comments section of clickbait material posted on /r/gaming today.
If somebody is doing something wrong, there are a plethora of ways you can correct them without coming off like an asshole. If somebody is treating you less than an equal, call them out on it or kick their ass. Doing otherwise is how you get taken advantage of.
this sentence makes me assume that you are a straight, white male. correct me if im wrong.
Your statement is racist and full of prejudice.
I think the complication is that sometimes racism/sexism is relative and subjective. One might see it as a teasing/flirting while another says it's sexual harassment. Or, one college tells another that he has trouble understanding him due to the other's 'accent', who replies 'I don't have an accent, you Asian might not be used to it, but we don't tolerate racism here.' (real life story here!).
http://www.zdnet.com/gnome-bled-dry-by-outreach-programs-7000028383/
Just make me mad.
I'm fine, because I don't give crap what people talk about (;. People talk so much, that I don't pay attention to it, unless it's something interesting. Well, that 's probabaly means I pay some attention at least.
I say it this way. I don't see any reason why would want pretned anything to me. Your freedom is at least as important as mine. So, as long as you don't try to restrict it, you can say whatever you want in any way you want. Why would I care, as long as you don't want to kick my teeth ?
That's is so haaardd to guess
Basically it almost sink GNOME Foundation. All money throw at project where nothing important for GNOME has been achieved.
The only reason why GNOME still exist after this fiasco, is the fact thaat RedHat is founding them. Yet.
kind of my position on honesty too.
but people sometimes just look for reasons to get offended so they can rage out and let off steam to compensate for other shortcommings in their miserable lifes.
Haha, well it's probably impossible to prove over internet, but I'm really calm person. I can't honest say I don't remember when was last time I lost temper.
Women for example, in the tech industry, are often assumed to be incompetent or lacking of skill before they even say or do anything. This often leads to situations where their ideas are thrown out the window or just blatantly ignored when working on a project. This doesn't happen to all women, but it does happen and that's where all this excessive political correctness comes from.
Are you just supposed to ignore that too?
what kind of argument is that? my ideas get rejected too, although i am white and male and whatever.
only because the ideas of a women might get rejected, doesn´t mean that they are rejected because she is a women.
Have you ever been in a situation where you'll provide a detailed solution to a problem only to have nobody say anything, or somebody might just say "Sorry, no."? Those are the situations I'm talking about.
If somebody makes an attempt to understand your idea or even provide a technical reason as to why the idea is flawed, then sure, that's perfectly acceptable. But if you've ever been discriminated against, you'd know when it's happening simply because you'd get no explanation, you'd get ignored, you could get laughed at, etc.
I didn't believe any of this stuff was actually real until I saw it happening to my sister who is a software engineer.
It happens to everyone. Just because you believe you are woman (or other thing), doesn't give you right to demand that your idea will be reviewed over all others.
Gratz you have idea. So does 129837 other people. And their ideas are also rejected.
How about the classic situation where a woman, or other discriminated person, shoots an idea to everybody else, is completely ignored, then has his/her idea implemented with no credit given to them? I'm guessing your solution to that would be to say "lol whatever" because apparently you really don't care if somebody takes advantage of you. Are you one of those developers that kisses the ass of anybody that is even slightly more skilled than them also?
I'm basically done with this thread though, you clearly have no intention of even imagining what it would be like to be in somebody else's shoes, most likely because you have never been discriminated against. I refuse to believe that somebody who HAS experienced any kind of discrimination, especially workplace discrimination, would not understand the issue that currently surrounds women (and other groups of people that are discriminated against) in the tech industry.
In the rare case that you are trying to understand anything being said, ask yourself if you'd be better off in the industry as a man or a woman (or any other type of person that is discriminated against.)
you are not listening either, so this conversation makes no sense.
yes women might be taken advantege of, but so is everybody else.
now let me ask you this, what would you do to change this?
if say, a certain percentage of new ideas that get implemented, hat to be as high as the percentage of women in the workforce do you think that would solve the problem? don´t you think people would discriminate women even more "her ideas only got taken because shes a women" etc.
or are all men in the tech industry just sexist pigs that need to go?
what is your solution to this supposed problem?
The solution? Well, why do people take advantage of others? I'm guessing a couple of things could be done. For starters, if you are part of a team and have the knowledge/skills to make meaningful decisions for something but are constantly ignored, then step up and demand explanation for it. Maybe you could be ignored due to not understanding something, or maybe a solid plan was already chosen, etc. If you are not being discriminated against, then try to understand that not everybody is in that boat.
If a team has female developers there is no expectation that they should take ideas from them simply because they are female, again, this would be the third time I've clarified this, I don't know how I can make this any clearer but it seems like that is how my post is being understood as. I'm simply saying, ideas from female developers, or from developers of groups that are discriminated against, should weigh no less and no more than those of anybody else of equal knowledge/skill 100% of the time. Is that really so much to ask for?
Maybe a TL;DR would make things clearer since there appears to be some mis-communication going on:
1.) Learn to respect yourself if you feel others are taking advantage of you. You aren't a lesser being than anybody else because at the end of the day, everybody is human.
2.) Don't be an asshole.
You are in your work time, owned by company. Anything you do, is owned by company.
If you have been given credit, it is goodwill of corporation. Not something you have right to.
If you want to be appreciated by your work in person, you should start your own business.
Or start shooting people in suits.
Whatever suits you better.
okay so why would that not apply to a women the same way it would apply to me?
how do i know if i am beeing discriminated against? do the people tell you that they don´t take your idea because you are female or are you just assuming that?
i´ll just take your statemant as it is, and assume that there is a problem.
i have witnessed all kinds of bullshiterry in the corporate world, but none of that ever had anything to do with gender or race.
its just a tough place for everyone at times.
and yeah thats bad, but thats just the way it is, and if you want to change that, then complaining on the internet wont help.
as suggested if you realy think its that bad, probably the only way to change that is to start a company and lead as an example.
That one of these tech-illiterate people dismisses legitimately good ideas or steal them isn't proof of anything other than that particular person being an ass. It's happened a million times to men, it's happening a million times to women, and eventually it'll happen a million times to any other gender.
Having someone just be an ass and then claiming it's sexism is, at best, jumping the gun, and at worst shows narcissistic tendencies.
dudes, serously, what you are saying is basically; "i dont belive there is discrimination against women or other minoritys in the tech industry, because im a white male, and ive never been discriminated."
sort of correct, i don´t think discrimination in the tech industry is such a common occurence as you ought it to be, because of all the women i know in my industry none have ever complained about beeing victim of such things.
ofcourse there might be discrimination somewhere in the industry, there probably always is something like that happening here or there.
but its not like we are deaf and blind, when stuff like this happens people talk about it.
they wouldn´t talk to me about it because i am a sexist asshole, thanks for jumping to conclusions.
i´ll just say im not and thats all i can do, believe it or not.
keep on living in your perceived world where everytime a males idea gets rejected its cause hes stupid and if its a female in his stead its mysoginy.
My entire point was that I wouldn't ever talk to you if I had a problem where I felt I was being discriminated against based on what you've said here. If you've said similar things that were either in front of female colleagues or got back to them from other people, it's likely they'd never tell you either. This is especially true because you take statements that are repeatedly clarified to point out that it's something that sometimes happens and you insist that people are saying that it's always true. If you can't even tell the difference between sometimes and always when people are writing things to you and you can refer back to what was said...
I had a good friend once who would often say that child abuse was overblown because he never knew anyone that had been abused as a kid. I also knew that several of our mutual friends had been abused as kids as they had confided in me about it. They just never talked to him about it because he kept saying it wasn't happening and didn't exist every time the subject came up, even tangentially. If you said blue paint wasn't real and I had a gallon of it dumped on me, I wouldn't talk to you about that either.
yes i think most of the negative things that happen to women, done by men, are seen as being mysoginy when most of it is just good old genderneutral assholeness. that does not mean i dont believe in the existance of sexism.
the only point why this went off in this direction is this:
now if you were to replace the word "often" with "sometimes" i´d have no problem with that statement whatsoever.
but all i am getting back is accusations and insisting on what a massive global problem that is and how i am too blind to see it.
Exactly.
First of all, let's (try and?) establish a fact of life. We all experience situations at work on a fairly regular basis that are frustrating and make us feel like we're being treated unfairly to one degree or another. Maybe you put forward an idea that get's shot down (ouch). Or maybe some guy who's a real jerk get's a promotion that you felt you were much better suited to (grrr).
Just to be clear, I don't doubt that when you are a female dev there ARE times when unfair things DO happen because of sexism. And I don't mind saying in those cases, go for the jugular feminists, I'm all for it (and I'm pretty sure you'd find most people here at polycount would agree).
But sometimes when stuff doesn't go the way you want it to at work it doesn't have anything to do with your gender or sexual orientation (or anything else that you feel might be causing people to discriminate against you). Sometimes it's just life being life where you don't always get everything you want exactly how you want it every single time.
This is why SOMETIMES it can be frustrating when I listen to and read some of the things being said by people who are aggressively feminist. SOMETIMES it's like they're saying "every time a female feels like she's being treated unfairly it's because of sexism so therefore there should be some sort of politically correct machinery that activates and forcefully manipulates the workplace environment so that things always go the way she wanted them to".
Pardon my bluntness, but that sounds pretty sexist to me. Why should females be granted diplomatic immunity from the day to day frustration of not always having things go the way you want them to?
I'll be even more blunt. Over the years I've worked with a wide range of female coworkers and I don't remember any of them being the sort of person who would want that sort of unfair advantage. And yet this seems to be exactly what some people in modern feminism are demanding.
So my advice is, look after each other at work and when someone gets treated unfairly, band together and stick up for them regardless of their gender. And beware of celebrity activists who claim to have the best interests of women at heart, some of them are just grandstanding narcissists who will say anything and do anything to gain notoriety and attention.
Having said that, I'm no genius so feel free to pick apart everything I've said - I'm happy to change my mind if my mind if someone can come up with a compelling argument to do so.
1) Almost all communication about widespread phenomena should have an implied "in my culture/subculture/personal experience" tacked on to it. I have no idea what the degree of systematic or personal bias is in places I've never been, and I certainly don't think that sexism is equally distributed across the globe. I can only speak to how it is in the US and Australia, because those are the only places I've lived. Even then my personal experiences are obviously limited. While I have studied the subject a lot -- at university I studied sociology with an emphasis on sex/gender, but it wasn't anthropology. In other words, my training is to examine it in my culture, not someone else's.
That said, I want to emphasize that even if people are saying that sexism is literally a "massive global problem" they aren't necessarily saying that it's equally a problem everywhere. If I make a peanut butter sandwich but only spread the peanut butter thickly over 3/4 of the bread and have it very thin over the other 1/4, I'm not going to bother calling it a peanut butter sandwich except for that one part that didn't get enough peanut butter and is kind of dry but whatever. I'm just going to call it a peanut butter sandwich.
2) The word "often" seems like it's being rounded off a lot. I generally consider it to be just a little bit above "sometimes". It seems that many people are considering it to be on the level of "almost always". Now, some of this is also going to vary by location -- it might happen often in one country (or state, or city) and rarely in another.
Alternatively, you aren't communicating as well as you think you are. I'm pretty sure there's mixes of both those things for everyone here. If I wasn't trying to understand I'd have stuck to my earlier statement of not posting in here again.
There is no shortage of assholes in the world, that's something I'm sure we can all agree on. The vast majority of women don't assume that men being assholes is automatically misogynistic or even that women being assholes isn't -- I've known some astoundingly misogynistic women. It's different, though, when it's disproportionately targeted toward women, or accompanied by little nicknames like 'sweetheart' or 'babe', or some guy who always talks to women's chests, etc.
If a guy is an ass to men 10% of the time that he deals with them and to women 75% of the time he deals with them, a lot of guys tend to say, "But he's a jerk to everyone sometimes!" Women, myself included, tend to get pretty defensive at those sorts of statements, because we notice when the proportions are different. That's part of what I was getting at when I said that it's unlikely that women you know personally would confide in you about those things happening. Really, though, any indication that you think that sexism is usually blown out of proportion will make it substantially less likely that someone would confide in you about it. It's exhausting enough to have to deal with the sexism without having to convince someone that it really happened. If there's any doubt about one person believing something bad happened to you and there's someone else around that you definitely know won't doubt it, who would you go to with a problem?
There are times when discrimination is painfully clear though. A personal example: I once went shopping in a barely-upscale store. It's a chain, but it's a snobby chain. I was trying to get the attention of the woman working there. I was literally tapping her on the shoulder while I said excuse me, and she completely ignored me. Never looked over, never stopped what she was doing, just... nothing. I may as well have been an actual ghost. Every other customer that came in she said hello to, and she helped a few of them get things. Now, it's possible she just decided to ignore every 10th person that walked in or something like that, but it's unlikely, especially since I had a distinct difference in personal appearance to the people she did speak to. Not precisely sexism since I can't think of any concisely painfully obvious examples of that off of the top of my head, but not equal-access assholishness either. Unfortunately, bias is one of those things that is incredibly difficult to prove, and that's one of the main reasons these sorts of conversations break down.
Stick with me to the end of this paragraph. As to social machinery to protect people and forcibly change workplaces, that is sometimes necessary to combat people who absolutely won't stop being racist, sexist, etc. This is mostly because it's nearly impossible to prove that the bias exists on an individual level. Example: There have been numerous studies in the US demonstrating that you can send identical resumes to open job positions but change the name on top -- "ethnic" sounding names and clearly female names aren't even contacted or are told the job isn't available in a disturbing number of cases, but the more mainstream or more commonly male names are called for interviews. Sometimes they'll happen in exactly that order. But short of carrying out that study yourself when you're looking for a job, you can't prove why you weren't hired or weren't called back. Even then, it's easy for a company to lie and say, "Oh, we thought they were asking about some other job," or whatever. I don't know of any better ways to combat that sort of insidious practice.
Shorter version: pretty much no one wants special treatment. We just want the "special" (meaning bad) treatment to stop. I want to know that if someone ignores me, it's because they're a complete jerk, not just a jerk to me because of whatever factor. I want to be able to walk alone at night without that being seen as an "invitation". I want to know that I'm being given equal consideration when I'm applying to jobs. I also want to know that I can both go to work where I want to and publicly state that I think everyone should be treated equally while being certain I won't get death threats or rape threats and that my family won't be targeted or hurt over it. I really don't think that's too much to ask.
Sheesh, I must've had a good run with jobs. All the places I've worked if a guy singled out females like that the other males (including me) would've probably lynched him.
I hate the idea of someone having their hard work to get where they are disregarded unfairly but I find it difficult to trust stories about studies like that. I've argued on and off for years with different people of various political and ethical persuasions and the one common characteristic I've seen across all of them (right vs left, religious vs atheist etc etc) is the propensity to gravitate towards stories that over simplify difficult problems in a way that supports their pre-existing bias.
Not saying it didn't happen mind you, just saying I've seen enough activist fudging of the truth to not blindly trust stuff like that without digging into it deeper and checking the track record and character of the people making the claims.
Having said that, thank you for your patience explaining stuff from your point of view. It's making me think about these things more than I normally would, and question what I believe and why (which is cool with me).
Just want to point out that this really depends on the industry and type of job. Over these past several years trying to find various, halfway decent paying "normal" day jobs (as in, not flipping burgers) while learning art at home - almost all of the time I've wound up losing out to women, because the types of jobs I was applying to are dominated by them (many office "desk" jobs, anything clerical, book keeping, library work, insurance companies, etc).
I'm not arguing against your overarching point, and I certainly wouldn't be surprised if higher paying/management roles followed a pattern similar to what your mentioned studies discovered. I just wanted to point out that when it comes to simply finding a job to pay the bills - being a girl isn't always a bad thing. I'd probably have an easier time getting a tech support job - my wife would probably have an easier time getting a clerical type job. In that case, hers would probably pay more, though (based on personal experience).
...of course, would my wife have a higher chance of getting harassed at her clerical type job that paid a bit more than me at my tech support job that paid a little less? Absolutely. :poly122:
that behavior makes no sense to me.
when you have a problem and you always talk to the people who will aggree with you anyway, you will never find the true cause of the problem and you will never fix the problem, you will just isolate your thinking and obsess about your perceived version of reality.
if you want to change the way things are you can not be affraid of confrontation.
if its something at the job like say your boss, who would fire you when you speak up, you won´t help yourself by just accepting that and then raging about it in secret your whole life.
anyhow i don´t think any of the women i´ve known in the industry know about my stance on sexism, because it never was an issue, so we never talked about it.
Same thing with women in the workplace. You can confront people, but what happens when the boss does something illegal, like firing you? You really think all the people this happens to will go to court?
These aren't issues that get solved by putting the responsibility onto the victim of the bad behaviour.
We need to educate people to cultivate a culture that's able to see bullying and sexism and is able to call it out as bullshit. And when we've got that culture, we need to nurture that motherfucker or in 10 years it'll go to shit in all the same ways that in today's world "PC" and "feminism" and "equality" have anything but positive reactions.
I really don't want to join in on this conversation but I just have to call you out on that. These laws exist for a reason and we should be encouraging people to use them. To claim that victims do not have the responsibility to seek lawful retribution is in my eyes simply wrong. It's definitely not easy for the victim to seek justice, but it is the only way to ensure that the person accused of wrongdoing is actually guilty and that they are punished accordingly.
If you are not happy with how the legal system is approaching these issues then I encourage you that you campaign to change them. If you think the law is ineffective (and there are clearly many instances of when it is broken), then lets fix it. But while saying that we should "cultivate a culture that's able to see bullying and sexism and is able to call it out as bullshit" may seem noble, it results far too often in existence of self righteous mobs that cause as many problems as they claim to fix. The legal system has mechanisms to protect both the victim and the accused. Encouraging public to execute the punishment does not.
edit:
After reading through both comments again, I think my reply may sound too harsh. To clarify, I do not mean to imply that you encourage mobs to seek out justice outside of law. Instead, arguments such as yours are often used as a justification for online vigilantism.
I definitely agree that cultivating a culture that can recognize sexism and bullying is a good thing, but we have to be careful in how we call it out. Hence why I think we should encourage people to make use of the existing laws.
you guys keep on comming with every trick in the book, i am done arguing with you morally suppirior hipsters.