Working out the pose, using a rough rig by Tyler Anthony.
Ignoring the crazy oxygen tubes in the back, how we looking here? Admittedl,y I'm going to have to ZBrush her face to really get the pose sold, but going for a grounded, guns blazing pose.
I'd also recommend tilting her head slightly to her left (viewer's right). This will get you a nice 'S' dynamic to her pose from the top of her head to her left leg.
Does anyone know what specifically makes Marmoset Toolbag 2 start chugging specifically? Or in another worded way, what's the most costliest items in Marmoset Toolbag 2? I've got about 6 materials running in the scene, and it starts chugging once I bring in the body, head, etc.
It depends on your GPU really, what GPU do you have? The faster/better your video card, the better performance you'll get.
The amount of materials generally shouldn't be a problem, unless you have hundreds, or if your textures are so high res that you're running out of VRAM.
Local reflections/SSR, AO, and high res shadows all reduce performance.
Dynamic lights can be pretty expensive, especially area lights (lights with a width > 0).
If you have resolution set to double that will hurt performance quite a bit as well, while res set to half will generally give very good performance even on low end GPUs. The resolution setting in the render tab has no effect on exported images.
I've got at most 8 materials in the scene, 2 using skin shaders.
But if it's the realtime post-processing items being the costliest, I will keep that in mind.
I guess also, I do wish that items like High-res shadows could be done only on image capture for those instances turning them off allow for easier operation.
Jinx isn't evil per se, just batshit crazy. An evil smile doesn't really suit her, your face looks like she's scheming something which isn't like her. This pic kinda captures her creepy smile
She has very wide open eyes with her bottom lids covering a little and high brows, with a full smile.
I think her face and hair, even without the smile could need a little bit more work to really look good and ''final''
Those are the two weakest part of this piece.
The expression just makes it even more obvious
But expression sure are hard to do
Definitely. I think I lost something from the previous shots I did from the face. Look way better from the previous WIPs. Definitely was deleting and cloning materials here and there to figure out why my scene was chugging.
But since I finally have a pose and shot comp down, I think I can just fiddle away with the materials and textures, which is good!
I fixed the expresison, feels better, feels more Jinx. Had to embiggen the iris on the head texture.
The hair is a mess. I have the physical mesh as stretched and layered hair planes, but my textures are a mess. I hope it's just a texture issue. Right now, the hair definitely doesn't feel feathery, and it's just reading as a shell
Redid the hair textures, added a handpainted Direction map that I picked up from my work on the Red Star Tracer.
How we looking?
I've gotten a very strong critique from a friend that the face has definitely hit the uncanny valley due to subtleties I do not have here from how faces muscles would deform during a smile.
I really like it, you did a good job man! I would probably add a little more resolution to the hair where it curls at the bottom though, where it is looking a little 'blocky'.
You might be able to fix it up by bringing the lower eyelids up. Pull the nasalabial folds up a bit more and have her mouth agape. Alternatively cover her lower teeth with her bottom lip. The grit-teeth look looks like the cover of a goosebumps novel.
You could also mess around with the top eyelid. Folding it up so that it's hidden by the brow will make her look more crazy.
I'll throw the tesellation property for the final close headshots to round em' off.
@Stirls, I'll mess around with those soon to see what I can get from it.
New draft of the final beauty shot. Trying to nail a photo or screengrab from a 1960's television show feel. Is it a little too noisy? There's at least three overlays going on it.
its abit late to say this but there isnt really any likeness between your character and the character Jinx or atleast i cant seem to see it in the face other then the expression which helps but doesnt get you all the way there i personally would have strived to try and get a much more accurate likeness as you intend to call her Jinx and are basing it on her
As I've written to Obscura, earlier on in the thread, there was this fight between emulating Jinx 1 to 1, emulating the pin-up style of Elvgren that the original concept was porbably inspired by, and keeping things realistically textured. I decided to make a compromise closer to the pin-up to keep in line with the concept's aesthetic, and I'm hoping the expression does reflect Jinx's mischeivous essense still. Perhaps it was a compromise too many.
The Red Star Tracer I'm working on is attempting to reflect the original Tracer face though, if that's of any satisfaction
The Red Star Tracer I'm working on is attempting to reflect the original Tracer face though, if that's of any satisfaction
Are you making your characters to please others or yourself.
Because from what I've read you really get your hand-held throughout the process a lot and it shows because the likliness is completely disgregarded on jinx and on tracer. You didn't notice it , people pointed it out.
You need to look for yourself and stop asking other people "Is what I did okay? Is this okay? Pls critique? What about this?" And start really LOOKING and nitpicking.
To me, it's half and half. On one end, I wouldn't have started those projects without thinking this would be designs I would still consider good in 3D. On the other, it's understanding that none of the work I do as a game artist is immune to other's input, something I've been trying to leave myself open to for the last 5 years. And to me, that's part of the small beauty of the work of game development. Was hard at uni since not a lot of explicit game artists, but talking with engineers and designers, I still got valuable (mostly technical) critiques to implement. I value your guys' opinions and knowledge regarding the projects.
The likeness attempts, in whatever quality, is a first for me, so learning from you guys how ya'll observe and analyze definitely helps me see in the same way as well. Hopefully in the future, if I do this right, it's a less noticeable issue. I'm kind of happy that there hasn't been a lot of "your anatomy needs work straight up" critiques and it's just "The anatomy in RELATION to the likeness isn't there. Needs work straight up."
And hey, hopefully for anyone in the future, the thread(s) help show the itty bitty steps they need for their own work. I know as a younger artist I was perturbed by tutorials that just skipped several steps assuming one could extrapolate a written method, etc. I can overcome those baby steps a lot of times now, but I can still see how it was infuriating (regarding free educational content). The meticulousness of the project threads hopefully combats that.
Alright, I have the shots I need for GDC> Texture flats on my website.
The big thing that stands out to me that needs more love is the Zapgun. Needs more noise, more specific edge wear, but due to time contraints, I will most likely touch these after GDC time permitting.
Thank you to everyone who's helped over the past couple of months. Definitely learned a lot.
I'm kind of happy that there hasn't been a lot of "your anatomy needs work straight up" critiques and it's just "The anatomy in RELATION to the likeness isn't there. Needs work straight up."
I hope this doesn't come across as too harsh, but your anatomy does need a lot of work, straight up. It's all in those subtleties that your friend also brought up.
IMHO, the best source for learning these subtleties is Scott Eaton's courses. I realize you are in a rough spot right now, so taking these rather expensive courses may not be an option for you at this moment. That said, I do recommend you take them as soon as your situation permits. For me personally, these courses have been absolutely eye-opening.
If it's any consolation, you have been making great improvements with each character! So do keep it up, and I'm sure you'll find your first gig shortly.
Though are we zeroing in on face, body, or everything in general?
In reflection, I could have exaggerated the deltoids and biceps a lot more to get the "lines" from those muscle groups. Face, I mean, at the time it was issue between accentuating certain features like dimples and fat lines, and smoothing it out so she didn't look super old. I might have been to tunnel-focused in regards to that.
Everything in general, I would say. But, I would put special focus on the face and the body for now.
Since you were looking to make a photo-realistic Jinx, what would have helped is to look up references of a good Jinx cosplayer, and try to stick to those references as closely as humanly possible. Alternatively, you could have gone for a one-to-one match with the concept, but then ofcourse it would have been more stylized.
The way you approached it, trying to mix elements from the concept, Gil Elvgren's paintings and realism, the final result ends up being kind of a strange mish-mash that neither captures Jinx nor 50's pin-up girls. It also didn't end up as realistic as it could have, because then you would have had to really work with specific photo references.
It's especially tricky because Jinx's lanky body type and Gil Elvgren's pin-up body type are pretty much on opposing ends of the spectrum. In order for the character to read as Jinx, she needs to have that lankiness. I would have brought out that feature, even if that makes it less pin-up style. You can still make a very thin body type look curvy through posing. Victoria's Secret models do it all the time! !!
Quick addition: Still looking for a rigger who'd be interested in rigging this for a reel and would be okay with me having access to the final rig as well.
probably too late for you to fix now, but one thing that immediately stuck out to me was the face. a lot of features look just a bit off, and that really detracts from the rest of the model since the face is a major focal point. one example is the muscles around the eye, theyre just a bit too small - this area is generally done fairly accurately in League of Legends as the eye is an incredibly important area.
i tried to do a red line to demonstrate, it's a bit more (but not totally) accurate.
Hey Panda, I think it's generally going to be a pain in the butt if you need someone else to rig your character models. IMHO, learning how to do your own basic rig is a very valuable skill as a character artist. Then at least, you won't have to wait on anyone to finish up your work for your portfolio. Also, not too many people can do it, so it would make you more attractive as an all-round character artist, especially to indie companies who might not have a dedicated rigger.
@javert: are you talking about the orbicularis oculi?
googling that monster of a name tells me that looks like the right area
but yeah, take my advice with a grain of salt. i'm just offering an unbiased perspective of what looks wrong to me. it's such a shame because the rest of the model isn't that bad but the face really detracts from that. maybe i'm crazy. maybe it's awesome.
Replies
So I know the material definition applies to the suit as well, any clear issues with any of the elements, weapons included?
Working on the presentation template while waiting on the rig, being useful with my time The hair has also gone through some modifications..
Thank God for this tutorial!
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/5d/67/4e/5d674e7b79cb1688fe350ecf1b6ec149.jpg
It's subtle, but I think it made the face look WAY better.
Also fixed the subdermis map, it's supposed to actually have color (very red in this case).
Does anyone else know how else I might be able tp push the face?
I feel like I'm missing some material definition contrast or just a strong definition itself in the main body textures. Are you guys seeing that?
As well, also feels kind of plain. Should I darken up certain areas, provide really strong contrast?
If anyone needs to see the texture maps, I can do that as well.
Ignoring the crazy oxygen tubes in the back, how we looking here? Admittedl,y I'm going to have to ZBrush her face to really get the pose sold, but going for a grounded, guns blazing pose.
I'd also recommend tilting her head slightly to her left (viewer's right). This will get you a nice 'S' dynamic to her pose from the top of her head to her left leg.
Figured outa new, more stable pose.
Does anyone know what specifically makes Marmoset Toolbag 2 start chugging specifically? Or in another worded way, what's the most costliest items in Marmoset Toolbag 2? I've got about 6 materials running in the scene, and it starts chugging once I bring in the body, head, etc.
The amount of materials generally shouldn't be a problem, unless you have hundreds, or if your textures are so high res that you're running out of VRAM.
Local reflections/SSR, AO, and high res shadows all reduce performance.
Dynamic lights can be pretty expensive, especially area lights (lights with a width > 0).
If you have resolution set to double that will hurt performance quite a bit as well, while res set to half will generally give very good performance even on low end GPUs. The resolution setting in the render tab has no effect on exported images.
But if it's the realtime post-processing items being the costliest, I will keep that in mind.
I guess also, I do wish that items like High-res shadows could be done only on image capture for those instances turning them off allow for easier operation.
Her face looks hideous, though I don't know if that's because of her villainours smile of my failure to do a proper villanous smile.
Any critiques?
Jinx isn't evil per se, just batshit crazy. An evil smile doesn't really suit her, your face looks like she's scheming something which isn't like her. This pic kinda captures her creepy smile
She has very wide open eyes with her bottom lids covering a little and high brows, with a full smile.
I think her face and hair, even without the smile could need a little bit more work to really look good and ''final''
Those are the two weakest part of this piece.
The expression just makes it even more obvious
But expression sure are hard to do
But since I finally have a pose and shot comp down, I think I can just fiddle away with the materials and textures, which is good!
I fixed the expresison, feels better, feels more Jinx. Had to embiggen the iris on the head texture.
The hair is a mess. I have the physical mesh as stretched and layered hair planes, but my textures are a mess. I hope it's just a texture issue. Right now, the hair definitely doesn't feel feathery, and it's just reading as a shell
Does anyone have any fixes for me for the hair?
How we looking?
I've gotten a very strong critique from a friend that the face has definitely hit the uncanny valley due to subtleties I do not have here from how faces muscles would deform during a smile.
Is there anything I can do to salvage this?
You could also mess around with the top eyelid. Folding it up so that it's hidden by the brow will make her look more crazy.
I'll throw the tesellation property for the final close headshots to round em' off.
@Stirls, I'll mess around with those soon to see what I can get from it.
New draft of the final beauty shot. Trying to nail a photo or screengrab from a 1960's television show feel. Is it a little too noisy? There's at least three overlays going on it.
The Red Star Tracer I'm working on is attempting to reflect the original Tracer face though, if that's of any satisfaction
Are you making your characters to please others or yourself.
Because from what I've read you really get your hand-held throughout the process a lot and it shows because the likliness is completely disgregarded on jinx and on tracer. You didn't notice it , people pointed it out.
You need to look for yourself and stop asking other people "Is what I did okay? Is this okay? Pls critique? What about this?" And start really LOOKING and nitpicking.
The likeness attempts, in whatever quality, is a first for me, so learning from you guys how ya'll observe and analyze definitely helps me see in the same way as well. Hopefully in the future, if I do this right, it's a less noticeable issue. I'm kind of happy that there hasn't been a lot of "your anatomy needs work straight up" critiques and it's just "The anatomy in RELATION to the likeness isn't there. Needs work straight up."
And hey, hopefully for anyone in the future, the thread(s) help show the itty bitty steps they need for their own work. I know as a younger artist I was perturbed by tutorials that just skipped several steps assuming one could extrapolate a written method, etc. I can overcome those baby steps a lot of times now, but I can still see how it was infuriating (regarding free educational content). The meticulousness of the project threads hopefully combats that.
The big thing that stands out to me that needs more love is the Zapgun. Needs more noise, more specific edge wear, but due to time contraints, I will most likely touch these after GDC time permitting.
Thank you to everyone who's helped over the past couple of months. Definitely learned a lot.
I hope this doesn't come across as too harsh, but your anatomy does need a lot of work, straight up. It's all in those subtleties that your friend also brought up.
IMHO, the best source for learning these subtleties is Scott Eaton's courses. I realize you are in a rough spot right now, so taking these rather expensive courses may not be an option for you at this moment. That said, I do recommend you take them as soon as your situation permits. For me personally, these courses have been absolutely eye-opening.
Here's the link: http://www.scott-eaton.com/
If it's any consolation, you have been making great improvements with each character! So do keep it up, and I'm sure you'll find your first gig shortly.
Though are we zeroing in on face, body, or everything in general?
In reflection, I could have exaggerated the deltoids and biceps a lot more to get the "lines" from those muscle groups. Face, I mean, at the time it was issue between accentuating certain features like dimples and fat lines, and smoothing it out so she didn't look super old. I might have been to tunnel-focused in regards to that.
Since you were looking to make a photo-realistic Jinx, what would have helped is to look up references of a good Jinx cosplayer, and try to stick to those references as closely as humanly possible. Alternatively, you could have gone for a one-to-one match with the concept, but then ofcourse it would have been more stylized.
The way you approached it, trying to mix elements from the concept, Gil Elvgren's paintings and realism, the final result ends up being kind of a strange mish-mash that neither captures Jinx nor 50's pin-up girls. It also didn't end up as realistic as it could have, because then you would have had to really work with specific photo references.
It's especially tricky because Jinx's lanky body type and Gil Elvgren's pin-up body type are pretty much on opposing ends of the spectrum. In order for the character to read as Jinx, she needs to have that lankiness. I would have brought out that feature, even if that makes it less pin-up style. You can still make a very thin body type look curvy through posing. Victoria's Secret models do it all the time!
I get it now
Regarding the 80s, I was thinking of this: https://www.google.com/search?q=Saved+by+the+Bell&rlz=1C1GIWA_enUS570US570&espv=2&biw=1338&bih=974&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=TuHuVLa2Ac3YoATohYGYAg&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ
Email me if you're interested!
i tried to do a red line to demonstrate, it's a bit more (but not totally) accurate.
googling that monster of a name tells me that looks like the right area
but yeah, take my advice with a grain of salt. i'm just offering an unbiased perspective of what looks wrong to me. it's such a shame because the rest of the model isn't that bad but the face really detracts from that. maybe i'm crazy. maybe it's awesome.
I see there is some discussion about periods, the weapons look 50's to me, which is a look I really love.
Keep em comin'.
Cheers