Pyr's Daily Speed Blockout Thread
polycounter lvl 12
I'm a little tired of spending a whole week just to get the character to look similar to the concept art. I been running into bad posture, head too small, shoulders too wide, lacking hip bones, and what not. So far, I think I get away with just hard working and amazing feedback I get from other members. But I want to improve myself. I want to get good. I just want to sit down for a few hrs, and when I get up again, I have something tangible to show for the time I spend.
So, I am going to, everyday, blockout a full character by using either a sphere or a zsphere.(except hands! It's IMM.Hand all the way) Total time will be between 1hr - 3hr. What character? Well, random stuff from my Pinterest feed...
Please let me know how I can improve myself.
Cheers
Day 001 - 1h 45m
So, I am going to, everyday, blockout a full character by using either a sphere or a zsphere.(except hands! It's IMM.Hand all the way) Total time will be between 1hr - 3hr. What character? Well, random stuff from my Pinterest feed...
Please let me know how I can improve myself.
Cheers
Day 001 - 1h 45m
Replies
Best advice I can give you is to do anatomy studies, set a strict time limit (1 or 2 hours) and make a head, torso, arms, upper body, doing that over and over with improving results will show in your other work.
I personally think your torsos and shoulder/pec areas are some of the areas most in need. You said it yourself, with "shoulders too wide", but I think these kinds of issues would be avoided entirely by understanding how things connect in those areas, why they sit the way they do, etc. Having a great understanding of form will only get you so far, and will still have you slipping up on angles that the concept doesn't cover. You need to dig a little deeper into actual construction.
Also, I am not sure if making a full block out of a new character daily is a good idea for less experienced sculptors. I know you know this, but this shit takes a ton of time, especially when we are trying to become more proficient at it. I struggle with this constantly, what I do is I focus on very specific anatomical areas till I get them right. I've been told speed comes with experience, but right now what is most important is hitting that quality level while disregarding time frame.
I was thinking the form is like a step before anatomy, so that's why I started with this. But I will do anatomy practice instead then.
I usually work on female characters more than male counterpart. But for this practice, should I focus on fitness model with clear muscle, or should I aim for similar model to what I work on ? (subtle toned muscle with smoothness all around)
Here's day 2. 90mins practice.
Better to do this after you nail Average Man and Average Woman, though. For now, I'd suggest heavily using refs like this.
http://opengameart.org/content/senshistock-female-human-reference-packs
http://opengameart.org/content/senshistock-male-human-reference-packs
Also, don't forget this. https://www.anatomy4sculptors.com/
As far as this day's practice goes, there are quite a few areas you could improve. The deltoids should be longer than they are, there's no indention at the acromion process, the pectoralis major looks like it inserts into the rib cage, and where it should insert over the clavicle it inserts under it. Your model has two additional breasts under the primary breasts rather than showing ribs there as it should, the external obliques are less prominent than they should be given the size of the butt, the primary pair of breasts is pushed up like it's in a bra even though no bra is present, there should be more indication of where the rib cage ends underneath the rectus abdominus, there's no indication of any vertebrae on the back, you have an indent at the anterior superior iliac crest where there should be a protrusion, there's no indent on the spine of the scapula, the trapezius is wider and shorter than it should be, and the region from the infraspinatus fascia to the latissimus dorsi is inaccurate and doesn't include the serratus anterior muscle, which should definitely be indicated given the magnitude of the other muscles.
Tl;dr: Use moar reference. You may wish to draw studies of the muscles and bony protrusions before you try to sculpt them, since you can usually do more studies at a higher quality in a shorter time in 2D.
Is good to see that you been very consistent in producing work.
Rather than doing female anatomy, I would rather you start with male anatomy as is something that forms are more defined.
Start by drawing the outline of the human body and get used to the silhouette of the different view. Do low poly box model of that if you think that drawing is alien to you.
After that, you could start study the reasons of why all these forms are created. This skill set not only applied for anatomy study but is also essential as being a 3D artist.
Buy the tutorial from Rafael Grassetti's gumroad.
Is one of the most 3D artist friendly tutorial when it come to learning anatomy.
Wish you all the best and I be looking forward for your growth
From a 3D artist that drawing is the last thing he will do other than for communicating and studying purposes.
@JedTheKrampus Gotta google up those muscle names +.+ I will try to leave mental notes of the ones I usually mess up for the upcoming sculpts to look out for. Thanks for the help man! And yes, I do draw muscle group onto the mesh before I sculpt them out. Gotta do better though :P
@Rafael Grassetti's gumroad, alright, got it. I will check it out. Thanks man.
I did the 3rd one while the forge is still hot. You're right, I have no clue how anatomy works yet. Like, the shoulder. Next piece will be shoulder down to hand, I guess.
....Maybe too busty... Among many other things. I been focusing more on the mid section of the body. Ab and back...
Use more ref, orthographic if you have to. See this:
1: The breasts, from the front, appear to have no gravity at all, while from the side they're just kind of misshapen. The fat deposit for them appears to take up far too much of the chest area, I was once told to think of them more as bags of flour or fat attached at one point under the collar bone, and left to droop from there. More or less accurate (see the guides I've drawn to the right), and stops you thinking "I know what boobs look like" and just going off the thought of sweet baps.
Additionally, define each separately. The curve you have between them is attractive to the eye, but probably preventing you from actually sitting the breasts correctly. I used to do this also.
2: Your ribs are... backwards...? I don't understand the line you've chosen to use here. Also, too high up.
3: Hips are a cartoon-ish fakery of hips. It's not a single line, but a combination of bone and muscle; there should be an indent, which is clearly visible on the right.
You should work on your general eye for proportion; there's rules you can follow when unsure once you know them. One of my favorites is that the bottom of the rib cage often lines up with the elbow pit.
Also, while I was googling ref for you, I found this;
https://www.pinterest.com/davidartstar/anatomy-reference-full-body/
Should be good for your understanding of construction, and there are some more good refs there. It's not enough to understand the forms of each muscle, but how they affect each other and work in conjunction, along with how they work with the outside world (eg, gravity), and a basic idea of what function they serve.
PS: You seem to be somewhat focusing on polishing. Try to keep dynamic with your strokes and low with your subdiv. The perceived form is all that matters, not how smooth it is.
http://www.zygotebody.com/#nav=0.19,118.09,115.28
I'm on this with Bagel, I too suggest you try to use a more "stroke"-style for making a base of the bust first. Clean-up doesn't really help early. Chaos is alright here, especially if you can nail the flow of different groups of muscles and such.
As for the 2. I think he went for something like this (from his Pintrest I tend to use to 'thief' Ref he finds :P):
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/07/d6/ae/07d6aeb7dd54c3253e2d03110ed605a4.jpg
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/54/98/79/549879b12bf07120e96fdc8ce7c36641.jpg
Angle is still wrong, but I have come across this kind of body while hunting for more 'soldier'-type ref a bunch. I guess the lower oblique's aren't getting bulky here, so it leads to this slight T/arrow-shape.
Hips are my personal nemesis besides cheekbones even when I understand how the structure of bone and muscle work. I found the only solution is to sculpt them over and over and over until you kinda get it. Good luck, it's driving me mad still :P
Thanks for the link! http://www.zygotebody.com is frigging awesome. And now I understand better how muscles work together.
Hmmm, apparently my day is shorter than 24 hrs.... Eh, it's alright.
Ran out of time on this one...Her hips are way too far back. Duh. Also missing the bump on her hip/waist.
You have a harsh line where the fatty bit of the breast sits on top of the pec, but it's a much softer transition, not really noticable. Under the skin it blends into this one soft form.
Keep it up!
You have an extra muscle above your lats. Your traps aren't coming down the back far enough. Your torso is too compressed at the moment.
The curve on your clavicle is arching the wrong way.
Still, much improved over your first iteration. Keep at it.
"Please let me know how I can improve myself."
It might just be the internet not conveying sarcasm/humor correctly.
Anyway, still improving, but watch your planes on the female form, they are there, but they need to be softer. If you look at your back view you can see actual cliffs coming off her hips. From the side, you have her butt sticking out way farther than her back. From the side her front is also nearly planar in Y. If you think about the curve of the body without the breasts there should still be a large arc coming from the clavicle to the crotch. Look at the image BagelHero posted and study that arc for the front as well as the S for the back.
Study where the serratus anterior muscles connect to each rib, and make a note that it does. Knowing that, If you don't know where your ribs are actually positioned inside the torso, you can't sculpt these correctly.
Also take note of how far forward the latissimus dorsi actually comes and where it connects to the humerus. Notice that it is also flush with the bottom of the scapula when connecting to the spine.
Your torso is still rather compressed. What references are you using while sculpting?
I know this is a long line of "look what you did wrong", but that is how we improve as artists. Until you can see these issues for yourself comments and critiques are only really there to help you improve as an artist. If you only want someone to tell you that your artwork is amazing then you should probably just call your mom.
+1 to the above post tho'.
Anyway, these are the ref I use during the sculpting. http://www.pinterest.com/PyrZern/anatomy-overview/
One thing I'd like to know is what brushes are you currently using? Because this all is very clean compared to a normal sketch-base with the clay build-up brush for example.
@Xaragoth I do use Clay Buildup, I just smooth them out <_<" I will post a full list after lunch!!
I think torso is a tad too long... Bosoms too high ?
Standard and Inflate to balloon it up a tad more. So low ZIntensity here.
And I use Orb_Crack to make a cut.
I smooth the crap outta everything at the moment because I don't subdiv that much yet, can't really see the direction/strokes of claybuildup/tube at all... It's just mess <_<"
Standard is Standard :P Inflate I only use very little anymore (Believe it or not at one point it was the ONLY BRUSH I USED. Nubagoth.) for like breasts and such mostly. I suggest Slash for things like buttcracks. Works wonders for me.
Try to not smooth too much and too early. It tends to destroy dynamesh details a lil' in my experience. You should totally wait with that until you retopo the mesh and then project your chaotic base onto it. You can go a lil' ham on the smooth there, while your retopo-subd should at that point hold the shape quite nicely.
I'm not sure how helpful this is going to be for you, but I figured maybe seeing how my practice sculpt from today (~45m) looked chaotic-middle-cleaned might help? I could send you pictures of that via PM
For measuring I tend to use this a lot and then check if the distance between neck-nipple-navel-nether (4N is easy to remember) checks out. Though obviously the body varies a lot person-to-person so the best tool is still having a head to measure with and looking at ref.
http://i.imgur.com/IFWgmMl.jpg
As for the feedback:
Neck is too long, me thinks
Breasts just a tiny bit too far up, it's mostly the would-be-deltoid that does make them look derp.
Shoulders either too far together or that deltoid-imposter is making them look like that.
Torso is either too long or too short, my brain can't decide. But you need to re-measure her for sure.
I tend to forgo the whole double-line on the hips and just make it more muscular myself. Mostly because screw hip modeling. Should look ok if you smooth the transition.
Curves in either view is still not there sadly. You need to get the curve of the shoulder/upperback area out a bit more and work on the ribcage-hip curve.
Side of the legs is too fat.
Trapezius is far too pronounced. You're not trying to build an anatomical dummy with muscles, so try to focus more on having the shape towards the latissimus and the neck, but make it sublte. push the scapula area shape a bit more. I haven't seen anyone besides people on steroids who have a crazy pronounced trapezius - especially females.
Uhm. I think that's all I can see. But some of it might be due to weird shapes. Take it with a pinch of salt.
The pelvic area is too far forward, now, and the butt is taking up a little too much mass.
Another redline to describe some of the ways you could fix the cruder forms.
Getting there, though.
I think smoothing that much may be detrimental. Sometimes it's just better to leave it rough. I also think, while orb_crack is wonderful for a lot of things, it's possibly not the best thing to use on more realistic flesh. Dam_Standard has a more natural falloff, which makes it good for softer forms. Slash is pretty good if you need something a bit harder.
I can't say anything in regards to Clay Tubes v Clay build up; I've always just used build up.
Keep on keeping on!
I am definitely struggling with the shoulders. It still doesn't make sense to me how it works.
I notice that having a head placeholder in there helps with the measurement. So I will continue to make one as well.
I don't think I have Slash brush in my collection. But Dam_Standard will do, sure thing.
I noticed her lower part was too forward, so I pushed em back... Now they're too far back
I think my biggest woe right now is the shoulder and the back muscle.
Oh, and thank you for the paintover !!
Her bosoms still a tad too high, I think.
Thought I'd throw my 2cents in, Seeing as you have a head now, you can use it as a guide to line up everything else and make sure it fits.
Check out Loomis' example.
http://www.webcomicalliance.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/prop_female.gif
Proportion first, then lay in the landmarks, then refine.
Sideboob still looks a lil' off and the curve towards the crotch could be slightly better.
Curve from latissimus to ass seems a lil' off as well.
Transition of ribcage to spine seems a little steep to me.
Not a fan of the hipbones, but that's a bit personal taste there. They could use a lil' more muscle.
Legs still a bit fat on the sides :P
Latissimus is a bit extreme on the dent.
Measurements are correct, based on the head. No idea if your head is right though, since you measure that with eyes *lol*
Shoulders are a bit 'fuck you' at first. Trapezius on the top of the back, giving the transition the slight curve, deltoid and infraspinatus come in from the side/back. Scapula + Clavicle gives it that slightly boney look on most people. On a more fit person it's not as likely, because the deltoid bulges a bit.
@beta_channel I import ref into ZB when I set up proportion. Then I mostly just 2nd monitor as ref to sculpt muscles.
@Xaragoth I will refer more to the ref while I sculpt
@slosh Thanks man. At the moment, I use Dynamesh until I get the proportion in place. Then I start subd. BTW, what does "carving in muscle shapes as opposed to building them naturally" mean ?? I should build muscles up from skinny person instead of cutting in gaps between muscles ?
Question: Can anyone explain how to get this from this muscle underlay ? I can't understand how scapula can be seen from the outside when trapesius seems to overlap it (partially)...
And here's the result.
Butt still too big, I believe. And can't really see back muscles.
It seems like the girl is pulling her shoulder back.
The trapezius and the Infraspinatus are thin muscles which cover over the scapula.
Thus is more easily to be seen the scapula.
Hope this could help.
The yellow part are the fatty pad of a female body.
not sure if this image helps but it kind of shows it.
Last version was a lot closer, really
Hips are pretty okay btw :P
Actually it kinda depends also on what you are going for here now. Are you going bodybuilder or still fit like before? Bit sleepy, so I figured you're still doing fit.
Also here's some old stuff from Haz I found
I feel like I'm hitting a plateau. Oh... and neck too wide. Her boobs also gravity-defying. How's her back ?
I think the shoulders go a bit low. Scapula isn't that long.
You might wanna ease a little off the latissimus.
What the bloody hell are those arms? Does she drag trucks for a living? And then throws them at people?
I think if you take a little bit off her legs sides and push the hipbones slightly, you got that done. Don't make them go too far towards the center though (looks like that right now).
Her ass is ... weird. It's doing the van damme split right now. Push the entire upper area closer together. See Haz stuff.
Sideview: Too much on the front of the leg. Curve of the upper back (ribcage) looks off. So does the neck transition.
Breasts are a bit of a speedbump right now, but you knew that already.
Aside from that you might wanna go and see if you can't watch some of Almighty_gir's Ivy VoDs. That helped me plenty besides Haz stream (go watch his Pepper VoDs if they are up).
This latest sculpt is more solid, but I feel like her rib cage is a bit small, and therefore also her lats.
EDIT: Just to clarify, also, look at how far you've come in like... a little over a week. Just a slight comparison from your first female bust and this latest one. Took me months to make the same progress. If you start feeling like you're having trouble knowing what improvements to make anymore and it just starts looking the same, try something a bit different just to refresh the palate.
Hmmm, next one I will try something a lil different. Not sure yet.
Seems I'm starting to mix bottom of ribcage and upper part of ab muscles together... Not good.
Wrong date. It's Day 11.
Ribcage looks a lot better, but in the back area, it's curve is too high.
Butt-crack-curve is still a little steep. round it out a tiny bit.
Pronounce the hipbone just slightly and that should look better
Breasts maybe a tiny, tiny bit closer together on the middle.
Oblique is bulging a little bit too hard above the hipbone.
I wish I could give you a paintover, but my 2d art skills were once described as "the devils poo" :P
But it's getting there! Keep going!
Instead of 'etching' on the surface of your blockout, try to think in general terms of shape and mass.
The problem I see you having is that your underlying form is.... well, formless. It seems like you build up a blob using reference, to get a general shape. (its a good way to start).
But then instead of refining that blob, which is what should be happening, in terms of mass and shape, you are etching on the surface to try to find your 'landmarks'. From there, you create muscles (almost the same depth and structure) by building up between the lines. What you get is musculature that is more or less correct in terms of location, but because it's superficially built up on top of a shapeless blob, it all looks very unshapely and blobby. And because you aren't getting the right shapes and mass, I see compensation in areas like where the hips meet the torso, where you are tried to carve a thick deep line into the model to account for the leg attachment, since you're not getting the actual form, and you need something to delineate that area.
Instead, stop etching in the lines before you start. Instead of thinking of muscles in terms of location (this goes here, this goes here), try to think in terms of mass. This builds up the shoulder here, and this muscle sits over the top of this muscle so there is more mass here, which changes the the way the shoulder connects to the pectoral. That way you're also thinking about the way physiology in one area affects its neighbors etc.
Also, I think it's good practice to think about actual physiology when you're praticing anatomy. Aim for a specific body build and think realistically. If you're gonna go for a body-builder type, think about fat distribution, so for instance you're not going to get huge breasts since they are mostly fat. If you're going for a more everday person, think about fat pockets and the way they sit with muscle etc.
Today I made 2 attempts. I tried with lower ab down to knees. But results were horrible. I'm not getting the thighs area right.
And you can do that with the muscle subtools, but it would be more of an exercise of learning names and insertions. Learning the mass and shape of anatomy is probably better done in one tool until you understand the underlying form.
Although I guess I should say that everyone learns differently and if you think that would help more than one subtool definitely try it and see.
I also attempted to get the butt muscle down to the side of her thighs... Didn't look right, of course...
First thing I see, right off the bat, is some pretty big proportional problems. Before anything I would suggest going back to subdivision 1, and aligning your model with the reference.
Right now just simple things, length of the legs, position of the legs, check the gap between the legs, size of the hips, gravity of the butt and breasts, curve of the stomach, just the very general things.
Really important to get this right before moving on. Best done at low subdiv.
I'm just gonna spend time to make it good, instead of restarting over and over and make the same mistakes again and again.
Started from zsphere.
I know a lot of people are throwing ref up here. I think what will help you when applying feedback is to think in terms of volumes. Remember that there are literally no convexities in the human form, there is only volumes interlocking into other volumes that may give the appearance of a convexity. Try masking out the shape of the muscle and then sculpting the volume of that muscle, avoid "free sculpting" without masking anything.
This will help you break down the process into parts, where you can first concentrate on getting the overall shape of whatever muscle you are working on and then you can concentrate on the volume of that shape.
Also remember that perfect spheres also do not exist on the human form and every volume you create should have an apex weighted to one side or the other.
also check out this video: http://vimeo.com/36214313