[UE4] A.Vlaskin's Pirate Lair
polycounter lvl 8
Hey guys long time no see. I started this scene some time ago but never finished it, so I decided to give it a shot with UE4. It's based on a concept from Artyom Vlaskin ( who doesn't know him, seriously ? ), and, as it was designed for the abandonned game Captain Blood, I guess it's some kind of pirate lair, so I'll call it like that ^^ ( doesn't look really pirate-ish but well ).
Note that it's just a fanart, I didn't work on Captain Blood of course.
So, there is no specular nor normal maps in the scene, I wanted to do something purely with hand painted diffuse maps and lighting ( on the other hand I started an entirely sculpted scene to do real next gen stuff, but I don't know when I will finish it ).
Enough talking, here are some preview screens. Feel free to comment, it's not completely finished yet and I can change some stuff.
Original concept :
Note that it's just a fanart, I didn't work on Captain Blood of course.
So, there is no specular nor normal maps in the scene, I wanted to do something purely with hand painted diffuse maps and lighting ( on the other hand I started an entirely sculpted scene to do real next gen stuff, but I don't know when I will finish it ).
Enough talking, here are some preview screens. Feel free to comment, it's not completely finished yet and I can change some stuff.
Original concept :
Replies
my only crit is I think the scene is a little big, the concept is more cramped together, less free space.
Quick list of stuff I'll change/add :
- FOV
- adding some spider webs maybe ?
- reducing the fog
- reducing the bloom
- darkening the ground a bit ?
- adding some decals on the ground ( wine stains, dirt )
Unfortunately, I haven't used UE4 so I can't offer suggestions. In UDK I believe those settings were under the environment settings.
Also I don't like the fog. Maybe personal preference but more detail in the rafter textures and the lighting should really help add visual interest instead of seeing the rafters fade into fog
Very nice scene
Other than that, pretty sweet. I like.
Anyway here are some new shots with decreased bloom and fog. I added some floating "dust" and spider webs, and darkened the ground a bit. And changed the FOV, looks less stretched now.
If someone can help with the ambiant lighting, I'd glady appreciate ^^.
Is there a reason you haven't included the bear & deer heads?
The folds in the curtain are too sharp.
I'm hesitating for the windows. I tried to make them dark, it doens't look as good. I'm looking for an easy way to add godrays, but in the engine examples they use blueprints for that and I don't know how to use this...
I've been staring at this a while thinking about how you can continue pushing the lighting and atmosphere and it hasn't been easy (I'm a bit rusty). I think for me, I'd like to see greater importance put on the table at the head of the feast. I don't think you have a particularly strong focal point, and because you have so many practical sources, nothing takes precedence.
I think you should down-play the hanging lanterns a little. The lanterns aren't falling off enough and there's a lot of overlap with the adjacent light sources. This overlap is creating a lack of definition for each of the lights, making the left and right wall feel very even. This issue isn't very pronounced, you've done a pretty good job, but I'd like to feel the light dissipating as it travels away from the source. You could gently crescendo the lights in intensity as they approach the head table.
At the head table, litter it with candles - allow there to be more light and warmth here. Pull the saturation of the lanterns down a little so that there's some focal saturation to really pull your eye here.
Overall, a little variety in intensity and saturation will bring some more character to the space, regardless if you take all or some of my comments to heart.
Very nice job so far, just some minor suggestions. Keep it up!
-Jon
And I finally managed to make godrays coming from the windows so I removed the planks ^^. Took me like 3 hours to understand the blueprint and shader of the example scene.
I did a quick paintover of the major things I see.
There's a few other issues here and there:
Scale on things is super off.
-Chair on the right (and maybe all over) is too wide.
-The deals holding the lanterns (I outlined the left one) is squashed. Check the concept closer.
-Larger rugs on the floor
The roof support appears too high near the end.
Where's the deer mount and bear? Those are super cool shapes that you're lacking in this box room right now. Get those in!
Flour sacks on the right are rigid and stiff. Make a version slumped over that has a bit more organic feel to it.
Picnic table in the back is darker in value than the concept so it blends in. Make it pop!
The pillars near the great table in the back same thing. So dark. Raise the value of those and add that detailing.
Overall comment about the texture rendering too. None of the textured assets stand on their own as having depth. They are all real shallow. You might want to add some normals on those or repaint most of them (brick walls biggest offenders). Faking depth is part of this style and you're missing the opportunity to do that. I would rework the brick wall texture. Paint it with a larger brush than the one you did now.
Make sure to compare values. The up close fireplace shot you can see it's all 1 value of grey. Adjust that so there's contrast. I did a write up on my blog about that kind of thing. Easier than retyping http://blog.environmentartist.com/?p=1127 it all up.
It's a great scene with tons of potential. You're like 80% there. That last 20% is what makes or breaks a piece. It also can take the longest to get through and can be tedious. So keep chipping away. When you get bored or want to rush though make a deer mount head thing. Do some smaller assets for fun when the last 20% drags on you.
Well firstly let me say I'm a noob in environment art, I didn't make that since school, like, 4 years ago ^^. Wanted to be a character artist but it didn't go well so I gave a try at env art. Let's say it's my first scene in 4 years.
I understand that pushing the work as far as we can is better, but I don't have the time to redo all the textures to give them more depth. In fact the walls and ground are just placeholders and with the lighting and all the props I thought I could save some time by letting those textures as they are. I know it's a shame, I just can't spend 6 months refining this scene.
Now I agree with what you said but :
- I didn't try to reproduce the concept exactly, people seem to focus on small details like the ones you mentionned. I really don't think it's important to have the lanterns at the exact same size than the concept...
- they are not deer and bear heads but it's a moose ( the horns are larger ) and a gorilla head. I'm gonna try to add that even if I really don't like animal trophies like I said, but I admit that they add something to the scene.
- those flour sacks are actually wood logs.
- about the table and the pillars, I had a problem : they were really lighter at first, like in the concept, but then with the lighting, and especially the skylight coloring everything in blue/purple, they poped too much. I had to correct a lot of textures to balance them with the lighting ( the candle holders were too dark for example ).
- a friend of mine working as an environment artist told me that the objects shouldn't "stand on their own", they are just here to fill the level and the player shouldn't focus on them. That's also why I didn't put a lot of work in each asset, because I knew that once in the scene and lit, we wouldn't focus on each one. Sure when you do nice screenshots of individual props without nothing else around, it's better to make them extra nice.
- on your gif you did put godrays coming from two different directions, left and right... are there two suns or something ? Looks a bit odd. In the last version I changed the wondows so the light doesn't seem to come from both sides. Unfortunately my godrays suck, I'm not good at FX and stuff like this.
Anyway, I'm not as skilled as you in texturing, I have a lot to learn and I'm gonna do some individual big props ( not related with this scene ) for practice. I'm gonna try to work on that scene as far as I can, but I'm really lacking time unfortunately.
If you're an aspiring Artist then yes you do have the time and you should use it to make your work as amazing as possible.
-It is important. Employers are going to want to see you nail the concept not half do it and deviate and not listen. You should try to match the concept as close as possible since you're starting out. It will make the making it awesome part a lot easier.
-Moose/deer/bear/antelope heads? Who cares? Put some animal heads there. It's more about shapes and form than specifics. You need to work towards that.
-Your wood logs look like flour sacks or just rectangles. Give them character.
-The table/pillar you're missing my point. It's the value of the texture. Match the concept closer. Once you do and adjust the lighting it'll fall into place.
-Yes and no. You need to make each asset awesome and the scene awesome. You sound like you're trying to rush through this. I'm not sure why. Rushed work will look bad and won't get you a job regardless on the number of pieces in your portfolio. You should take you take and focus on the process and improving not doing x project then y and z to get a job. I used to be like that and it didn't help
-It's less about god rays and more about break up and giving interest in the lighting. Again I would listen to Jon he's a lighter. I'm just an enviroment schmoo.
I'm not that great at texturing. I'm not comparing your textures and my work. I'm saying that your textures are flat in those areas. The brick work still stands out. Spend some time reworking that is my advice.
At the end of the day you seem pretty combative about critiques. That's your opinion because it's your work. Not sure why you're posting and asking for feedback if you're arguing with the feedback.
I'm just trying to help and give you an extra push to make this as awesome as the concept. Polycount isn't about kid gloves here. Straight forward critiques and improving is a big thing here. If you want great jobs and that's so awesome print it out and put it on your Mom's fridge or post at Zbrushcentral.
Also check your camera FOV. It looks super off for the concept.
Two small things I spotted that I don't think anybody else mentioned:
1) The rugs are begging for some thickness/depth, especially the bear skin rug. The pelts themselves are usually extremely thick, and most times a lot of the head and skull structure is left intact so the head raises up off the floor.
2) The emissive textures on your lanterns are too uniform, they look artificially lit. Imagine what the inside of that glass would look like after years of candles burning inside. Make the middle of the glass a nice hot color and have the edges fade out into a soft warmer glow. Also, maybe even some soot darkening at the top would help it pop a bit more.
3) Do you have ambient occlusion turned on? It's off by default. You might want to double check and tweak the settings in the World Settings window under Lightmass. Tweaking it and pushing some shadows into the corners would help your lighting pop a lot more.
The godrays could be done with geometry instead of blueprints/FX (alpha shape etc...).
If you're going to take multiple shots of an environment then you're going to want some nice refined assets in there, if all the work goes into a focal point and you want to shoot something else, then that something else is going to look poop by comparison.
For example I like the chest in the foreground (You've added that yourself I take it?), I'd like to see some stylization on it, maybe some big gold metal details. I'm more of a fan of nice little nuggets throughout an environment (well balanced ofc) as opposed to a great central piece and this has plenty of opportunity for that
Like I said it's looking great, and with some of this ace feedback from people implemented, this will be a really strong piece
I know you're trying to help don't worry, I'll keep your advices in mind. I was always trying to be awesome in the past, but it's so frustrating, maybe I just can't. At least not now. I try to improve my skills with every project a bit, I'm just not good enough to do something near perfect. I'll need years for that I guess. I know I'm above average but still not great enough, that's the harder wall to break.
I'll add the heads and tweak the lighting a bit ( it's difficult because I feel like the light sources are all over the scene, hard to focus on something ).
@Harbinger : yup you're right, those should have been real meshes and not simple planes with alpha. I'll see if I find some time to redo them, or maybe I will replace them with rugs.
I think I will redo those lanterns and put a candle in them with transparent glasses. It looks really fake like thise indeed.
And about the Ao, are you talking about the SSAO or the baked AO ? I tried to turn the baked AO on and it didn't really change anything. I just have a slight SSAO here.
mheyman : I'm hesitating. The godrays always add a nice touch ( when they are well done, which is not the case here ^^ ), but having night time outdoor would be much easier I guess. The thing is, I can't find an easy tutorial to do nice godrays on unreal. Every darn tuto I watch is always overcomplicated, with shaders with a shitload of nodes everywhere, and now blueprints with UE4...
Ok guys here are some new shots. After doing some tests with Romy I found out how the GI and indirect lighting affects the scene, so I did a new lighting from scratch. I also changed some things :
- replaced the emissive on the lanterns with glass, and a little brasero inside ( I tried with candles but they were too small, looked weird )
- re-did the bear rug with volume ( yeah looks more like a teddy bear rug... )
- added a boar head above the firepit ( it's an old mesh a did for an unfinished project, I re-textured it )
- added an elk skull above the main table
- added reflections in the windows with reflection spheres.
Some thoughts: Fog is good to get some depth into the scene and you could argue that the fire and lanterns will add a lot of smoke, but right now it's a bit too much for my taste and instead of subtly enhancing the scene it draws attention, also because it's unnaturally light.
Also it seems to be a bit too cool for the scene. (Again, helps to get some depth, but also draws attention. Maybe you could try to add an exaggerated Skylight (hole/windows in the roof, not technical term),which adds a bit blue from the top. )
Then again, I've seen similar use of fog in games already. Just doesn't lend itself so well for an indoor location, in my opinion, and looks like the kind of fog you'd add to blend out distant geometry as fast as possible.
You could still tone down the lanters a bit and make them more localized. They seem very bright and the scene could have a clearer lighting hierarchy.
Lastly the wood of the benches but especially some of the pillars is very close to the stone in h/s/v.
I'd probably remove some or all candles on the stair in front of the main table, in order to make the focus even clearer.
Edit: I'd also avoid putting different lightsources next to each other, if possible, like the lanterns in front of the fireplace. Combined with the similar intensity and color, it makes the lighting in that area seem flat and takes away the impact of the fireplace.
I'd check the placement of the mounted animal heads, chairs, etc. The hallway design of the room is hiding some of these. You can adjust the placement a touch to make them viewable.
Anyway here are some other shots, but I think I'll go back to what I had before because I prefer the previous version.
- pushed back the wooden structure and the lanterns into the walls to have a better look at the boar head ( it was hidden by the lantern ).
- added a small light under the elk skull to hightlight it a bit.
- reduced the fog ( but it looks worse now I don't like it, gonna change that ).
- reduced the lanterns lights a bit
- desaturated the whole scene a bit
- reduced the bloom ( I'm gonna change that too )
And here is a shot without fog. I don't know why but the skylight deosn't work without the fog, at all...
I know that this kind of fog is not realistic but honestly it adds something to the lighting and helps lighting the dark areas.
Could you make a Breakdown for us?
Also I'd really turn off the lanterns left and right of the fireplace and add some more bounce light from the fire/below in that area. But that's just me.
edit: Just to make that clear: I'm not saying to get rid of the fog completely. Like mentioned, it's an important tool to give depth and enhance the atmosphere, but to use it more subtly and work more with the light itself. And if you liked the older version, then by all means keep that.
Yet all the carpets around the red one seem a bit of, but maybe thats just me.
Anyway, Great work
I like the idea of the dust particles, but they look more like lit ashes right now.
Keep going looks good!
very very cool
Here are the UDN docs for it for more info https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest/INT/Engine/Content/Types/Textures/Cubemaps/index.html
Also, instead of a generic cubemap, you should just be placing the SphereReflection actors, they'll help quite a bit. If you can find an appropriate cubemap it might help, but it will also be very "fake."
Thanks I'm gonna try that.
MooseCommander : I think that ambiant cubemaps in UE4 are different from reflection cube maps; Il already did put reflections sphere for the reflection in the scene ( on the glass ).
I'm gonna try to find out how to do the outline, it could look good indeed.
Totally agree, you should give it a try !
I do also believe you could add a little variation in your wall bricks, they all have exactly the same color/brightness. Or maybe it's too subtle for my poor eyes
Well, there is a difference, but to put it simply...
With PBR, everything has a reflection, even the most rough and diffuse of surfaces.
Because of this, the reflection spheres are applying a cubemap to your materials. In many ways, this is replicating an ambient cubemap because you're essentially telling the surface to reflect that environment, which increases how "bright" that material appears. So it does add a slight difference on top of your base lighting. Not a lot, it is subtle, but it does.
I also tried to add an outline, with the post process shader from the example, but it doesn't look good. Either I have an outline on all the assets but big artefacts on the surface wich are paralel to the camera, or I have an outline only on half the assets and no artefacts. Both look bad, and the outline flickers a lot.
Now I could continue working on this for weeks, but the more I work on it, the more I want to start over ^^. I guess I'll just gonna keep going and start something else to learn the PBR materials.
Anyway here are the last changes :
- went back to the old fog
- added some variations to the wall texture ( it's still bad but well... )
- darkened the bench and tabl texture
- lightened the pillars
- added some dirt decals on the walls and ground
- disabled the dust particles
If I don't change my mind I'll do the final shots, and a small breakdown but really there is nothing interesting to see.
Done with this, time to move on.