Hey everyone, this is my first dota 2 item hopefully I can learn fast enough to get it submitted befor the deadline.
Here are my initial concepts for Brewmaster's flail, hard part is deciding what concept to go with. My two favourite are the palm strike and monkey king bar flail.
I was originally going to model the palm strike for the compo but it seems the mkb is far more popular so I'l switch to working on that.
Heres the hi-rez palm strike model:
For my first try I made the hi-rez first planning to bake it down to the low rez later. But for the mkb I'm trying a different approach, I'm making the game rez mesh first then I will use the low poly as a base for the high-rez sculpt.
Which method yields better results? low poly > high poly or high > low?
Heres the Low poly mesh for the monkey king bar:
I have to admit I'm struggling to get the detail I want with the low poly limit.
@Visigoth: you're using too many polies for the chain rings. I would make all the links hexagonal with four sides on each division ((6*4 + 6*4 + 4*4)*2 = 128 tris for the chain instead of (6*2 + 4*6 + 6*6)*2 = 144 tris). It should look better an you get some polies for the other things.
Usually going highpoly to lowpoly is faster and easier. But I wouldn't say that either way is better or worse. It usually depends on your skills/what you're used to.
BTW very nice concepts
Tnx for the advice, cutting out the polys in the chain freed up a few polys for more detail for other parts. Here is the current progress on it as well as some ingame tests(with quick ugly textures):
Looking at the ingame model the detail in the tail warping around the staff is kind of subtle, so my thoughts on it are that I wouldn't need the real geometry there to get the same effect. I could instead make the handle a conical shape and bake the tail into the texture/normal. This would also free more valuable tris.
I have also gone ahead and started making progress on the hi-rez sculpt here:
@paskie
I can't really see that item being a weapon. I would think it'd work as a ward better. All you have to do for the ward is make the fish flail a bit and make the grill more ornate.
@Visigoth
I liked the concepts (Jade Key was the best IMO). But for the item you're doing right now. The head looks kind of fat.
So I did a little color (still WIP) I'll probably have to add a little more red. And I tested the rig/color in the loadout. But I don't really know how to rig.
This is what I found out after looking at the default files. Brew's arm slot is split up into 3 sections for each hand. Bicep, Elbow, and Wrist. There is very little to bicep, a little more on elbow, while the majority is on the wrist.
My question is. How do I actually rig this thing? How do I know which verts go where?
@GhostDetector Weapon? It's for the backslot instead of his backpack. It will definitly have more ornaments on it, they usually have some nice patterns and stuff on them.
hi all, @visigoth, the first one with jade key was lot better but its yours choice @Ghostdetector, its nice to see that you work in blender, i will definitly ask for help with any export problems
Ok, so i decided to learn a bit about workflow on how to make/export/ character to game thats why im here
rough sketch of a brewmaster helmet, nothing special. On to the sculpting part.
regards
@GhostDetector Weapon? It's for the backslot instead of his backpack. It will definitly have more ornaments on it, they usually have some nice patterns and stuff on them.
My bad, Idk where I got that from though I think it was because the grill was too close to the weapon making me think it was part of the flail.
Today I have resized/moved about some of the parts of the game mesh to make it fit the bones better and so its not dragging along the ground.
Then I unwrapped the model ... this took up most of my day trying to eek as much detail as I could out of a 256 texture.
My unwrap when from looking like this:
To this:
This is the first time I'v attempted to use overlapping UVWs but I think I finnaly have a workflow/method for getting nice looking normals/texture bakes with mirrored UVs
I was unhappy with the first dragonhead sculpt so I chose to re-sculpt it:
Finally I baked down some textures then threw it in game and ... run into a few problems with parts not showing texture just looking black:
but on the bright side the normal map is working and has reasonable detail the spec map,color map and metal map also appear to be working.
Still lots left to do but its getting there slowly.
Black spots are most likely overlapping uv's, you need to offset in the uv space by 1.0.
for example, looks like all your rings are stacked. Move all except on over 1.0 in uv. Then it will only bake one and the others will have that bake tiled onto them.
It won't give you as good of an AO bake for shadowing but you can probably get by with it.
The other parts are hard to say because I can't tell where their uvs are exactly, but most likely same problem.
@Visigoth: I think you could give the head a lot more detail, if you would change the handle into less poly's. It looks like you used 8 sides for it, I would only use 6 sides at max, maybe even just 4 for the middle, especially for the lod_1 version.
Your concept looks really nice and clean, and I think there's too much little detail in your sculp. If you can add more detail to teh head, I think this weapon will look amazing!
This was a first sketch
after-making a high
But after I remember about a polygon counting and crying when I were doing retopo, THinking"When somebody doing retopo like this, one kitty crying in the world"
So i can't make a symmetrical retopo -> really bad
And i shoud cut a part of it >^<
and some textures with AO,prtN,prtP and Displesment with cavity :O
and - in game:
and Promo if it is good
Please i need your really usefull advices
P.S. Sorry for mistakes
P.P.S. I don't understand how to make offtopic or spoiler .Tgs like
[OT][/OT] isn't work
P.P.P.S submit and vote up pls
thx
big update on our whole efreet-ember collabo (hayes, rocket, horse strangler and me):
there are still missing both weaponmodels, the size of the mainhand sword particle needs to be adjusted - as well as the spawning point of the fire hair needs to be more voluminous. those will be the next steps.
Finally I baked down some textures then threw it in game and ... run into a few problems with parts not showing texture just looking black:
but on the bright side the normal map is working and has reasonable detail the spec map,color map and metal map also appear to be working.
Still lots left to do but its getting there slowly.
@Gumbata wow harsh, help me fix it... what would you say is wrong with it that makes it so horrible? is it the sculpt the bake the lighting? the spec? the over all design or just everything?
I know the color map is bad but I haven't really put too much work into that yet, been focusing on figuring out how to use the texture space and make effective bakes.
@Baddcog Ah man so simple why didnt I think of doing that in the first place. Thanks!!! you have made my baking process sooo much simpler and I'm sure doing the uvs that way will also fix the black texture problem.
@Gumbata wow harsh, help me fix it... what would you say is wrong with it that makes it so horrible? is it the sculpt the bake the lighting? the spec? the over all design or just everything?
I know the color map is bad but I haven't really put too much work into that yet, been focusing on figuring out how to use the texture space and make effective bakes.
@Baddcog Ah man so simple why didnt I think of doing that in the first place. Thanks!!! you have made my baking process sooo much simpler and I'm sure doing the uvs that way will also fix the black texture problem.
Hey Visigoth, if this is your first item, I'd say good job on getting the pipeline down
As for the dragon head, I think the problem is you have too many details and they're not too polished, making the bake look a little blobby. The UV layout is good so I don't think thats the issue.
I think if you go back to the sculpt and refine it, polish some edges, make the details bigger it might help
More progress on the sculpt, tried to incorporate some of the feedback so thanks guys.
@Gumbata Wow dude, L2feedback. Offer something constructive to help someone instead of just firing shots.
For the dragons heads, I know you said tris are super tight but if it was me I'd fight pretty hard to try and get some more geometry into the dragon head. especially in areas like the eyebrows and a mouth and more concentrated on the parts of those areas that change the silhouette.
I think if you can make the 'tail' around the handle more integral in the handle, and use fewer sides you can probably squeeze more polys into the head.
Use them for more pronounced eyelids and mouth.
Of course when you paint if you make the eyebrows and lips/eyes different tones that will help them pop a lot too.
@Visigoth
Sorry dude, I was just too lazy to type back then But I totally agree with the others. KEEP IN MIND THAT IM TALKING JUST FOR THE DRAGON HEAD. The overall sculpt looks too blobby with no definition. Texture looks very flat, and the silhouette is very blocky, you obviously need more polygons, Im sure there are enough polygons you can find for it, when I make stuff for DOTA 2 I always have more than I need. Although if 350/450 tris are not enough for you, you should consider redesign. Sometimes when the concept is too detailed and is obviously gonna go over the tri limit, we need to make sacrifices. In such cases when I have doubts I blockout the item in Zbrush and start with the low poly, before I create a high-poly in 2-3 days and then have to trash it because i dont have enough polygons to make it look good enough. Dont worry everything comes with practice
@sukotto, nice and clean
hi, few hours ago i discovered that brewmaster does not wear helmet so i was forced to change my item ;/ here is what i've got so far
regards
@riceart If you are certain that you wont create clipping issues in the animation and with the other items then I dont see a reason why you cant make him a helm and load it into the shoulder slot. Assming you have the poly limit you'd need for a helm from the shoulder slot requirements.
Again thanks for the feed back its really useful just wanted to post an updated sculpt to see if I'm heading in the right direction or if I'v gone completely mad. Keep in mind this is still a WIP and I'm working on polishing the details to make the tighter and pop more.
Going off all of your feedback I threw out the old sculpt and started from scratch. Concentrating on the core design I looked more closely at the mkb icon(its really tiny and hard to see design >.<) I picked out the parts that make it recognizably the mkb instead of some blobby generic dragons head and incorperated it into this sculpt.
Again thanks for the feed back its really useful just wanted to post an updated sculpt to see if I'm heading in the right direction or if I'v gone completely mad. Keep in mind this is still a WIP and I'm working on polishing the details to make the tighter and pop more.
Going off all of your feedback I threw out the old sculpt and started from scratch. Concentrating on the core design I looked more closely at the mkb icon(its really tiny and hard to see design >.<) I picked out the parts that make it recognizably the mkb instead of some blobby generic dragons head and incorperated it into this sculpt.
This sculpt is definitely better but if you squish it into the same amount of polygons its still gonna look like a box Using your polygons wisely is vital in this situation Good Luck!
These are the edges I'd make sure to have in your mesh, they help show off the silhouette. The red arrows point to spots you might want to push a little more from that view.
@Baddcog tnx for the illustration I think I'v managed to get the edges in place to keep the silhouette, but oh man its been a struggle working with only 350 tris >.<
I think I'm getting it closer to where I want it to be just gotta finish working on the staff texture and then on to trying to figure out these mask 1 and 2 thingys.
looking much better, but you still have 8 tris to use
Yeah lol, first you complain about not having enough and now waste 8 triangles? I dont allow myself to waste more than 1-2 In your case its UNACCEPTABLE
Head style with particles looks forced. Modelled hair looks better and more fitting.
Such particles need some transition mesh for them like on lina's arcana or venge's base model. That said, very well done set!
Hey guys, is there a bug with Ember Spirit's weapon particles? I tried importing a mesh but the default particles are still there. I remember seeing this but wasn't sure if its been fixed?
I'm undecided on which tetsubo style might fit the Earth Spirit better. The 1st has a more primitive look like the character but the second could incorporate more sculpted detail.
You have a lot to improve. This looks like a base mesh to me not a finished sculpt. It has no detail, battle damage, wear and tear. Looks like this is the first or second time you open up the sculpting program. The baking and normal map wont change anything, the wraps will project flat because they need to be beveled. Obviously, you are new to baking, 90 degree angles do not give any depth. You need to smooth the edges of everything and then refine them.
I recommend you to watch videos or livestreams with voice preferably. You really need to start from the basics. Good luck!
You have a lot to improve. This looks like a base mesh to me not a finished sculpt. It has no detail, battle damage, wear and tear. Looks like this is the first or second time you open up the sculpting program. The baking and normal map wont change anything, the wraps will project flat because they need to be beveled. Obviously, you are new to baking, 90 degree angles do not give any depth. You need to smooth the edges of everything and then refine them.
I recommend you to watch videos or livestreams with voice preferably. You really need to start from the basics. Good luck!
You are right, i'm new at modelling at all not only on sculpt. I will work more on this. Thanks.
Replies
Here are my initial concepts for Brewmaster's flail, hard part is deciding what concept to go with. My two favourite are the palm strike and monkey king bar flail.
I was originally going to model the palm strike for the compo but it seems the mkb is far more popular so I'l switch to working on that.
Heres the hi-rez palm strike model:
For my first try I made the hi-rez first planning to bake it down to the low rez later. But for the mkb I'm trying a different approach, I'm making the game rez mesh first then I will use the low poly as a base for the high-rez sculpt.
Which method yields better results? low poly > high poly or high > low?
Heres the Low poly mesh for the monkey king bar:
I have to admit I'm struggling to get the detail I want with the low poly limit.
Usually going highpoly to lowpoly is faster and easier. But I wouldn't say that either way is better or worse. It usually depends on your skills/what you're used to.
BTW very nice concepts
Tnx for the advice, cutting out the polys in the chain freed up a few polys for more detail for other parts. Here is the current progress on it as well as some ingame tests(with quick ugly textures):
Looking at the ingame model the detail in the tail warping around the staff is kind of subtle, so my thoughts on it are that I wouldn't need the real geometry there to get the same effect. I could instead make the handle a conical shape and bake the tail into the texture/normal. This would also free more valuable tris.
I have also gone ahead and started making progress on the hi-rez sculpt here:
I can't really see that item being a weapon. I would think it'd work as a ward better. All you have to do for the ward is make the fish flail a bit and make the grill more ornate.
@Visigoth
I liked the concepts (Jade Key was the best IMO). But for the item you're doing right now. The head looks kind of fat.
So I did a little color (still WIP) I'll probably have to add a little more red. And I tested the rig/color in the loadout. But I don't really know how to rig.
This is what I found out after looking at the default files. Brew's arm slot is split up into 3 sections for each hand. Bicep, Elbow, and Wrist. There is very little to bicep, a little more on elbow, while the majority is on the wrist.
My question is. How do I actually rig this thing? How do I know which verts go where?
@visigoth, the first one with jade key was lot better but its yours choice
@Ghostdetector, its nice to see that you work in blender, i will definitly ask for help with any export problems
Ok, so i decided to learn a bit about workflow on how to make/export/ character to game thats why im here
rough sketch of a brewmaster helmet, nothing special. On to the sculpting part.
regards
My bad, Idk where I got that from though I think it was because the grill was too close to the weapon making me think it was part of the flail.
Today I have resized/moved about some of the parts of the game mesh to make it fit the bones better and so its not dragging along the ground.
Then I unwrapped the model ... this took up most of my day trying to eek as much detail as I could out of a 256 texture.
My unwrap when from looking like this:
To this:
This is the first time I'v attempted to use overlapping UVWs but I think I finnaly have a workflow/method for getting nice looking normals/texture bakes with mirrored UVs
I was unhappy with the first dragonhead sculpt so I chose to re-sculpt it:
Finally I baked down some textures then threw it in game and ... run into a few problems with parts not showing texture just looking black:
but on the bright side the normal map is working and has reasonable detail the spec map,color map and metal map also appear to be working.
Still lots left to do but its getting there slowly.
@GhostDetector
sry I'v made the head even fatter :P
Black spots are most likely overlapping uv's, you need to offset in the uv space by 1.0.
for example, looks like all your rings are stacked. Move all except on over 1.0 in uv. Then it will only bake one and the others will have that bake tiled onto them.
It won't give you as good of an AO bake for shadowing but you can probably get by with it.
The other parts are hard to say because I can't tell where their uvs are exactly, but most likely same problem.
Your concept looks really nice and clean, and I think there's too much little detail in your sculp. If you can add more detail to teh head, I think this weapon will look amazing!
after-making a high
But after I remember about a polygon counting and crying when I were doing retopo, THinking"When somebody doing retopo like this, one kitty crying in the world"
So i can't make a symmetrical retopo -> really bad
And i shoud cut a part of it >^<
and some textures with AO,prtN,prtP and Displesment with cavity :O
and - in game:
and Promo if it is good
Please i need your really usefull advices
P.S. Sorry for mistakes
P.P.S. I don't understand how to make offtopic or spoiler .Tgs like [OT][/OT] isn't work
P.P.P.S submit and vote up pls
thx
there are still missing both weaponmodels, the size of the mainhand sword particle needs to be adjusted - as well as the spawning point of the fire hair needs to be more voluminous. those will be the next steps.
@Shock Really like how the neck scarf thing turned out, great balance of detail.
Started working on a small Brewmaster item! Concept underway!
No offence but the dragon head looks horrible....
I know the color map is bad but I haven't really put too much work into that yet, been focusing on figuring out how to use the texture space and make effective bakes.
@Baddcog Ah man so simple why didnt I think of doing that in the first place. Thanks!!! you have made my baking process sooo much simpler and I'm sure doing the uvs that way will also fix the black texture problem.
Hey Visigoth, if this is your first item, I'd say good job on getting the pipeline down
As for the dragon head, I think the problem is you have too many details and they're not too polished, making the bake look a little blobby. The UV layout is good so I don't think thats the issue.
I think if you go back to the sculpt and refine it, polish some edges, make the details bigger it might help
More progress on the sculpt, tried to incorporate some of the feedback so thanks guys.
For the dragons heads, I know you said tris are super tight but if it was me I'd fight pretty hard to try and get some more geometry into the dragon head. especially in areas like the eyebrows and a mouth and more concentrated on the parts of those areas that change the silhouette.
Keep on working hard and youll get there.
I think if you can make the 'tail' around the handle more integral in the handle, and use fewer sides you can probably squeeze more polys into the head.
Use them for more pronounced eyelids and mouth.
Of course when you paint if you make the eyebrows and lips/eyes different tones that will help them pop a lot too.
Sorry dude, I was just too lazy to type back then
hi, few hours ago i discovered that brewmaster does not wear helmet so i was forced to change my item ;/ here is what i've got so far
regards
It's been done on the workshop before.
Going off all of your feedback I threw out the old sculpt and started from scratch. Concentrating on the core design I looked more closely at the mkb icon(its really tiny and hard to see design >.<) I picked out the parts that make it recognizably the mkb instead of some blobby generic dragons head and incorperated it into this sculpt.
This sculpt is definitely better but if you squish it into the same amount of polygons its still gonna look like a box
These are the edges I'd make sure to have in your mesh, they help show off the silhouette. The red arrows point to spots you might want to push a little more from that view.
I think I'm getting it closer to where I want it to be just gotta finish working on the staff texture and then on to trying to figure out these mask 1 and 2 thingys.
Yeah lol, first you complain about not having enough and now waste 8 triangles?
Such particles need some transition mesh for them like on lina's arcana or venge's base model. That said, very well done set!
You have a lot to improve. This looks like a base mesh to me not a finished sculpt. It has no detail, battle damage, wear and tear. Looks like this is the first or second time you open up the sculpting program. The baking and normal map wont change anything, the wraps will project flat because they need to be beveled. Obviously, you are new to baking, 90 degree angles do not give any depth. You need to smooth the edges of everything and then refine them.
I recommend you to watch videos or livestreams with voice preferably. You really need to start from the basics. Good luck!
Progress update, finished up the highpoly sculpt.
It's because i made the key parts with different objects. I will remake the key in one object. Thanks.
You are right, i'm new at modelling at all not only on sculpt. I will work more on this. Thanks.