And how this didn't end up in court ?
If Autodeks was EU compnany they would probably be in court by the time they tried to buy XSI. For sole reason that they tried to monopolize 3d app market.
Because as you said, Autodesk isn't a EU company. Business works completely different in the United States than it does in the EU (aka monopolies reign more freely).
Sucks that Softimage is going to be killed off but I was already expecting something along those lines.
On the up side, perhaps Autodesk will have the time to do some much needed work on Alias. That app doesn't look like it's seen more than a few cursory updates since the creation of Maya.
Because as you said, Autodesk isn't a EU company. Business works completely different in the United States than it does in the EU (aka monopolies reign more freely).
I don't believe thats accurate at all. Monopolies do not reign more freely. Autodesk has a vast influence on the market, since their applications get used more than others for certaint tasks, but they dont have a monopoly. If they kept buying all the competition, then yes it would be and in the past the system we have in place has stopped that.
The bigger problem is that Autodesk has the market cornered, not because of Autodesk necessarily but because the studios, schools and other places choose to continue to use Autodesk products. They would have a monopoly if there wasnt any alternative, there is, lots of alternatives for this field in fact...
So the bigger problem is with the user. This is not to say I like autodesk's practices, but they certainly dont have a monopoly that is being forced on us.
Well after this, there's pretty much only Maya for high-end character animation and thay have a grip on all the pipeline apps, Modo and Houdini are still not there yet.
And when they kill Max next year we'll all be on Maya.
Well after this, there's pretty much only Maya for high-end character animation and thay have a grip on all the pipeline apps, Modo and Houdini are still not there yet.
And when they kill Max next year we'll all be on Maya.
I think we will see Modo get to that point though. The Foundry's offerings are the closest thing you can get to a complete pipeline offering. They recently offered whats known as the Collective, which is modo, mari and heiro. A couple more iterations and Modo might end up being on more even ground as far as animating goes.
I do think autodesk's ultimate goal is to get everyone on Maya though.
I've been hearing rumors like this since about 2003. Is there a source on this?
They have been and continue to put Maya as their top priority, colleges teach it, it gets the most (though very little) love from Autodesk. The whole argument they used for stopping development to XSI could apply to 3DS Max. They also want more people on a subscription plan, thus the end to upgrades post 2015.
I dont think they would kill max off in such a sudden fashion though, its clear they are slowly restructuring how their licensing and infrasturcture works. If anything it would just slow and end development over a period time while pushing Maya harder and harder.
Really I dont think its far fetched to assume it cant or wont happen at this point.
What I'm hoping is that Autodesk has a separate team working on building a modern root application from scratch. Maya and Max are very powerful programs, but they are starting to show their age. You can only iterate on old code for so long...
What I'm hoping is that Autodesk has a separate team working on building a modern root application from scratch. Maya and Max are very powerful programs, but they are starting to show their age. You can only iterate on old code for so long...
only starting to show...?
at least a max rewrite was rumoured several times throughout the last decade. after ballsing up the development of their 'next-gen' compositor toxik (now named composite and bundled with max and maya?) one would think that a rewrite of such complex applications is no easy deal for them.
it would be likely that such an app would initially ship with far less functionality than we are used to now and by the time it's fully functional, the code might start to show it's age again. happened with max.
it's been quite a while but i believe both maya and XSI were bundled with their respective predecessors in their early releases - because they lacked a lot of functionality people had gotten used to.
and if i recall right XSI - the long delayed rewrite of softimage 3d - caused the then popular softimage to lose a big chunk of marketshare to alias and they have played third fiddle ever since.
all this rewrite business happened when the respective developers had real competition out there. what is the incentive of autodesk to do a great job nowadays though? all they have to do is somehow keep you on subscription.
i'd say the real change has to come from outside...
Stupid question, I have a student copy of Softimage, Autodesk seems to have removed every option of purchasing the software on their site. Is there anyway to still buy it for professional use?
When autodesk bought maya I assumed they did so to build a new third piece of software that combined the best features of both 3dsmax and maya. Then I found out that autodesk is happy to just make incremental updates and add viewcubes to all their software...
The fact that they've not made any attempts to combine the strongest elements of Max and Maya all this time does seem like a strong sign of apathy on Autodesk's part. Why try to do better if you've already cornered the market, I guess.
It actually seems ludicrous to me that they've been supporting multiple separate programs all this time which serve essentially the same purpose.
You can still get it apparently. They're doing a terrible job of publicising this. Jill Ramsay is helping to communicate Autodesk's XSI wind down, so things are improving a bit. Her advice was also to check with your local distributor to see what their status is but I'd guess you can point them at that communication and get some movement on their side.
I'm really going to miss XSI, it feels like the most robust end-to-end software for what I do. I was sad that ICE never got straight hooks into any game engines, but my hope for that is that Fabric Engine can pick that up and run with it.
That's why I despised Autodisk for acquiring XSI (Yes, XSI, not freaking Softimage, that's the company!) since day one and said it right away that it would not go well, and can now say "TOLD YOU SO!" to all the bozos who said "Oh but they get more money to do updates now ect"... yeah right :P
That's why I despised Autodisk for acquiring XSI (Yes, XSI, not freaking Softimage, that's the company!) since day one and said it right away that it would not go well, and can now say "TOLD YOU SO!" to all the bozos who said "Oh but they get more money to do updates now ect"... yeah right :P
You are so ungrateful.
The ViewCube was the feature that everyone waited for years!
So how does it make you feel about the Maya acquisition? Autodesk always buys companies to kill them off except when they don't? Maybe it's my years in the MMO biz that drove home the idea that the customer's perception doesn't always line up with reality.
XSI was getting large updates and had great cheap purchasing options for freelancers and hobbyists. ICE Interactive Creative Environment was released in 2008, and is basically a more flexible version of UE4's blueprints that can be used for programing, fluid and physics simulations, particles, add animation features, etc. Autodesk buys Softimage later in 2008, adds small features like viewcube, better integration with Maya and 3ds Max, etc. But basically sits on the software until 2014. Obviously the purchasing options IMO were worse and more expensive.
So how does it make you feel about the Maya acquisition? Autodesk always buys companies to kill them off except when they don't? Maybe it's my years in the MMO biz that drove home the idea that the customer's perception doesn't always line up with reality.
It isn't a stretch to say Maya was acquired with the possible intent of cannibalizing its features for 3dsmax. What Autodesk discovered instead was that Max's architecture had reached its limits for further improvement and expansion. The program is 80% plugins. Retrofitting new features required enormous amounts of time due to tweaks needed for an old core.
With that realization, Autodesk focused on upgrading the Maya core for the purposes of easier maintenance with the intent to add new features later. Maya's architecture is much more conducive to this. In addition to the new bi-frost and bullet solver mechanics, more features are slated to be introduced (which I suspect will be saved for the post-mandatory subscription phase). Autodesk evidently has big plans for Maya.
As for 3dsmax, the shoe is now on the other foot. Autodesk knows customers are NOT happy with the lack of improvement since 3dsmax 2009 (its worse in fact). Autodesk now offers an upgrade option to switch to Maya. That's right, for only $2000, you can pay for Autodesk's massive fuck up with 3dsmax.
If Autodesk was to ever consider putting another major 3d app on its chopping block, it will probably be Max. After of course, it ports most of its modeling toolset to Maya.
CAD has always been Autodesk's bread and butter and it most certainly shows in how the company regards its 3D animation assets.
From some source I know that some bi-frost mechanics will be applied to both Maya and Max, but Max will be finally cancelled sooner or later. Unlike other softs it won't be just tossed away. It's gonna be replaced with something new. And here comes project excalibur.
It's still rumor, but it has some sense. I guess that reaching limits in max, as phaedarus written above, forced them to work on something new. Maybe just new incarnation of max with completely new core. It's their product from its beginning so maybe that's why the work on replacement instead of throwing everything into Maya. But time will show. What we can do is just guessing, guessing...
Ugh, not buying Maya. Would rather chop off my left nut.
Well, you asked if you can buy XSI. Yes, you can and also get Max or Maya for free. Is it bad?
but Max will be finally cancelled sooner or later. (...)
And here comes project excalibur.
Yeah, super awesome project excalibur from people who can't even code simple scene explorer. Creating new 3d package makes no sense for AD atm. They would rather get rid of whole M&E thing.
Maya's position is not so firm as you think, it mostly holds on big studios and they are trying to get rid of Maya and move to Houdini or inhouse tools.
I don't think they could kill off Max without a large number of people switching to Modo instead of Maya. It is interesting seeing large studios like Epic Games and Valve moving more towards Maya.
From some source I know that some bi-frost mechanics will be applied to both Maya and Max, but Max will be finally cancelled sooner or later. Unlike other softs it won't be just tossed away. It's gonna be replaced with something new. And here comes project excalibur.
It's still rumor, but it has some sense. I guess that reaching limits in max, as phaedarus written above, forced them to work on something new. Maybe just new incarnation of max with completely new core. It's their product from its beginning so maybe that's why the work on replacement instead of throwing everything into Maya. But time will show. What we can do is just guessing, guessing...
And your source is trustworthy? For me this reads like a rehash of old rumors and semi accurate information.
Maybe just their animation teams use Maya, I don't know if they've ever released numbers or figures. But their UE4 animation and rigging tool is only for Maya.
I was sort of alluding to this in the other thread on modo, but I'm still curious if it can cover any of the big game production work outside of modelling?
I'd love to try it out over learning more maya but I can't tell if modo is able to replace maya for character rigging, animation, scene and collab referencing tasks, pipeline and tools dev, and all the other sorts of things we need to keep using maya and max for? Or for game dev, is it just used as an awesome modelling app for most people?
Modo does have some rigging tools, they're not as advanced or as developed as Maya's, but considering what was added in the rigging department of Modo since the put rigging in couple of years ago, eventually, i think they will reach Maya's level.
And on the subject of Epic using Maya, i remember during one of their twitch broadcasts, the tech art director (I think thats what he does anyway) said that they use Max internally for modelling, and Maya for animation, which is why the toolkit is maya only. Though i don't see why they can't use Modo internally as well.
And about the licensing thing, i'm just wondering what all these big companies are going to do when they are forced to start paying annual subscription fees weather they want to or not, when Autodesk switch to a sub-only system, like adobe did. (it'll happen gradually over the next two years), i'm pretty sure most companies are using perpetual licenses (or most are),
not speaking for a big company, but if the subscirption is as fair priced as adobes i'd totally be up to it, my fear is, that it will just be overpriced. so by now i think when it happens we will switch our internal pipeline to blender and use max and maya for data conversion only...
lets do the math, that is 2340 euro a year, a full license costs 3900 euro, so thats 1,6 years of owning a license
now adobes mastersuite (read ALL of their tools) are 3568,23 euro(cs6 price), the monthly payment is 61,49 euro - that makes 4,8 years, photoshop alone is a little below 4 years
upgrade fees will slightly change the outcome, still, being on max 2011, and using 2014/15 only to open and save down files. i don't see me putting the whole studio on such a subscription plan. While we already have all seats covered wit CC by Adobe. lets face it, with the money we save we can easily hire a coder to get our tools work in blender. As long as the clients gets their data in a clean manner, that works for them, this should be fine.
As far as I understand it, perpetual licenses won't be sold for Autodesk products much longer, but subscription plans for existing perpetual licenses will continue. (We'll see for how much longer, but they'd face a mob with pitchforks if they simply discontinued these.)
Yearly subscription is around 650 Euro right now for perpetual licenses, which is ridiculous enough if you look at what "real" updates without a plan used to cost, but still cheaper than rental (aka "desktop subscription").
But will Autodesk eventually stop supporting license re-activation for the perpetual licenses for those who have already bought one (and will before they stop selling them). That will all but force users to go Desktop/yearly sub, or switch entirely.
For instance, Adobe are still selling CS6 suites, but how long do you think they'll keep doing that? (and how long before they turn off the license servers)
The only way AD will save themselves loosing a lot of customers is if they drop that £160 monthly sub down to something like £40 maximum. But lets face it, they won't do that.
But will Autodesk eventually stop supporting license re-activation for the perpetual licenses for those who have already bought one (and will before they stop selling them). That will all but force users to go Desktop/yearly sub, or switch entirely.
For existing licenses and contracts they basically have to activate them and I expect them to do so for the next couple of years at least. I suppose they will "eventually" stop to do so and wiggle their way out of it in one way or another but when that will happen is another question.
Usually they tend to be a bit more lenient and forthcoming on a person to person level compared to their outrageous EULAs. I'd just take the time to read those carefully for every new release and be roughly up to date with the jurisdiction of your country.
XSI was getting large updates and had great cheap purchasing options for freelancers and hobbyists. ICE Interactive Creative Environment was released in 2008, and is basically a more flexible version of UE4's blueprints that can be used for programing, fluid and physics simulations, particles, add animation features, etc. Autodesk buys Softimage later in 2008, adds small features like viewcube, better integration with Maya and 3ds Max, etc. But basically sits on the software until 2014. Obviously the purchasing options IMO were worse and more expensive.
ICE was extended into modelling under Autodesk but I think that was a continuation of a roadmap, rather than innovation under AD.
The sad thing is, XSI was marketed as a companion app rather than a full DCC platform. It always appeared obvious that AD's stable was too full but I'd expected them to strip XSI clean and port things before killing it off. There's no direct comparison to things like ICE and Gator in Maya. The speculation was that AD suffered some fairly weak financials and had to appear to act in their media division (which only makes 15% of the revenues...). As XSI renewals had slowed down, particularly in Japan, it got the chop.
My personal hope is somewhere between Houdini and Fabric Engine, which is made up largely of former XSI guys. As a fairly advanced ICE user, Fabric looks to have a very similar, full featured visual programming set-up in the works. The integration with multiple programs seems to indicate great flexibility as well.
I like using Elastic Reality to shape photos to fit UV maps.
( least pixel destruction possible in the deform!
Where trying to do the same with liquify would not have nearly as much control or undo-able freedom )
Elastic Reality got folded into XSI.
But now Elastic Reality also lives on in Autodesk Composite!
Replies
I think it is a good move.
Because as you said, Autodesk isn't a EU company. Business works completely different in the United States than it does in the EU (aka monopolies reign more freely).
Sucks that Softimage is going to be killed off but I was already expecting something along those lines.
I don't believe thats accurate at all. Monopolies do not reign more freely. Autodesk has a vast influence on the market, since their applications get used more than others for certaint tasks, but they dont have a monopoly. If they kept buying all the competition, then yes it would be and in the past the system we have in place has stopped that.
The bigger problem is that Autodesk has the market cornered, not because of Autodesk necessarily but because the studios, schools and other places choose to continue to use Autodesk products. They would have a monopoly if there wasnt any alternative, there is, lots of alternatives for this field in fact...
So the bigger problem is with the user. This is not to say I like autodesk's practices, but they certainly dont have a monopoly that is being forced on us.
And when they kill Max next year we'll all be on Maya.
Don't see why they'd give it up, the animation tools are still up there if not better than Mayas and the modelling is still great.
It's not like Autodesk was actively supporting it since its acquisition, a few more years without support can't hurt.
I think we will see Modo get to that point though. The Foundry's offerings are the closest thing you can get to a complete pipeline offering. They recently offered whats known as the Collective, which is modo, mari and heiro. A couple more iterations and Modo might end up being on more even ground as far as animating goes.
I do think autodesk's ultimate goal is to get everyone on Maya though.
I've been hearing rumors like this since about 2003. Is there a source on this?
Softimage was classed as a support package to Maya in the creation suite, despite being enough of a package to stand on it's own feet.
They have been and continue to put Maya as their top priority, colleges teach it, it gets the most (though very little) love from Autodesk. The whole argument they used for stopping development to XSI could apply to 3DS Max. They also want more people on a subscription plan, thus the end to upgrades post 2015.
I dont think they would kill max off in such a sudden fashion though, its clear they are slowly restructuring how their licensing and infrasturcture works. If anything it would just slow and end development over a period time while pushing Maya harder and harder.
Really I dont think its far fetched to assume it cant or wont happen at this point.
only starting to show...?
at least a max rewrite was rumoured several times throughout the last decade. after ballsing up the development of their 'next-gen' compositor toxik (now named composite and bundled with max and maya?) one would think that a rewrite of such complex applications is no easy deal for them.
it would be likely that such an app would initially ship with far less functionality than we are used to now and by the time it's fully functional, the code might start to show it's age again. happened with max.
it's been quite a while but i believe both maya and XSI were bundled with their respective predecessors in their early releases - because they lacked a lot of functionality people had gotten used to.
and if i recall right XSI - the long delayed rewrite of softimage 3d - caused the then popular softimage to lose a big chunk of marketshare to alias and they have played third fiddle ever since.
all this rewrite business happened when the respective developers had real competition out there. what is the incentive of autodesk to do a great job nowadays though? all they have to do is somehow keep you on subscription.
i'd say the real change has to come from outside...
It actually seems ludicrous to me that they've been supporting multiple separate programs all this time which serve essentially the same purpose.
„Anyone can buy extra seats of the Maya + Softimage bundle until Feb 1, 2016, at the same price as Maya – you do not need to be on maintenance”.
You can still get it apparently. They're doing a terrible job of publicising this. Jill Ramsay is helping to communicate Autodesk's XSI wind down, so things are improving a bit. Her advice was also to check with your local distributor to see what their status is but I'd guess you can point them at that communication and get some movement on their side.
I'm really going to miss XSI, it feels like the most robust end-to-end software for what I do. I was sad that ICE never got straight hooks into any game engines, but my hope for that is that Fabric Engine can pick that up and run with it.
You are so ungrateful.
The ViewCube was the feature that everyone waited for years!
YOU...WHY....YOU.... *RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE*
It isn't a stretch to say Maya was acquired with the possible intent of cannibalizing its features for 3dsmax. What Autodesk discovered instead was that Max's architecture had reached its limits for further improvement and expansion. The program is 80% plugins. Retrofitting new features required enormous amounts of time due to tweaks needed for an old core.
With that realization, Autodesk focused on upgrading the Maya core for the purposes of easier maintenance with the intent to add new features later. Maya's architecture is much more conducive to this. In addition to the new bi-frost and bullet solver mechanics, more features are slated to be introduced (which I suspect will be saved for the post-mandatory subscription phase). Autodesk evidently has big plans for Maya.
As for 3dsmax, the shoe is now on the other foot. Autodesk knows customers are NOT happy with the lack of improvement since 3dsmax 2009 (its worse in fact). Autodesk now offers an upgrade option to switch to Maya. That's right, for only $2000, you can pay for Autodesk's massive fuck up with 3dsmax.
If Autodesk was to ever consider putting another major 3d app on its chopping block, it will probably be Max. After of course, it ports most of its modeling toolset to Maya.
CAD has always been Autodesk's bread and butter and it most certainly shows in how the company regards its 3D animation assets.
It's still rumor, but it has some sense. I guess that reaching limits in max, as phaedarus written above, forced them to work on something new. Maybe just new incarnation of max with completely new core. It's their product from its beginning so maybe that's why the work on replacement instead of throwing everything into Maya. But time will show. What we can do is just guessing, guessing...
Yeah, super awesome project excalibur from people who can't even code simple scene explorer.
Maya's position is not so firm as you think, it mostly holds on big studios and they are trying to get rid of Maya and move to Houdini or inhouse tools.
MODO
They do? I thought Epic games was using a lot of MODO :O
I'd love to try it out over learning more maya but I can't tell if modo is able to replace maya for character rigging, animation, scene and collab referencing tasks, pipeline and tools dev, and all the other sorts of things we need to keep using maya and max for? Or for game dev, is it just used as an awesome modelling app for most people?
And on the subject of Epic using Maya, i remember during one of their twitch broadcasts, the tech art director (I think thats what he does anyway) said that they use Max internally for modelling, and Maya for animation, which is why the toolkit is maya only. Though i don't see why they can't use Modo internally as well.
And about the licensing thing, i'm just wondering what all these big companies are going to do when they are forced to start paying annual subscription fees weather they want to or not, when Autodesk switch to a sub-only system, like adobe did. (it'll happen gradually over the next two years), i'm pretty sure most companies are using perpetual licenses (or most are),
lets do the math, that is 2340 euro a year, a full license costs 3900 euro, so thats 1,6 years of owning a license
now adobes mastersuite (read ALL of their tools) are 3568,23 euro(cs6 price), the monthly payment is 61,49 euro - that makes 4,8 years, photoshop alone is a little below 4 years
upgrade fees will slightly change the outcome, still, being on max 2011, and using 2014/15 only to open and save down files. i don't see me putting the whole studio on such a subscription plan. While we already have all seats covered wit CC by Adobe. lets face it, with the money we save we can easily hire a coder to get our tools work in blender. As long as the clients gets their data in a clean manner, that works for them, this should be fine.
Yearly subscription is around 650 Euro right now for perpetual licenses, which is ridiculous enough if you look at what "real" updates without a plan used to cost, but still cheaper than rental (aka "desktop subscription").
For instance, Adobe are still selling CS6 suites, but how long do you think they'll keep doing that? (and how long before they turn off the license servers)
The only way AD will save themselves loosing a lot of customers is if they drop that £160 monthly sub down to something like £40 maximum. But lets face it, they won't do that.
Usually they tend to be a bit more lenient and forthcoming on a person to person level compared to their outrageous EULAs. I'd just take the time to read those carefully for every new release and be roughly up to date with the jurisdiction of your country.
ICE was extended into modelling under Autodesk but I think that was a continuation of a roadmap, rather than innovation under AD.
The sad thing is, XSI was marketed as a companion app rather than a full DCC platform. It always appeared obvious that AD's stable was too full but I'd expected them to strip XSI clean and port things before killing it off. There's no direct comparison to things like ICE and Gator in Maya. The speculation was that AD suffered some fairly weak financials and had to appear to act in their media division (which only makes 15% of the revenues...). As XSI renewals had slowed down, particularly in Japan, it got the chop.
My personal hope is somewhere between Houdini and Fabric Engine, which is made up largely of former XSI guys. As a fairly advanced ICE user, Fabric looks to have a very similar, full featured visual programming set-up in the works. The integration with multiple programs seems to indicate great flexibility as well.
( least pixel destruction possible in the deform!
Where trying to do the same with liquify would not have nearly as much control or undo-able freedom )
Elastic Reality got folded into XSI.
But now Elastic Reality also lives on in Autodesk Composite!
( which is now free on Autodesk's App Exchange! )
https://apps.exchange.autodesk.com/3DSMAX/en/Detail/Index?id=appstore.exchange.autodesk.com:autodeskcomposite_windows64:en