Indie; you'll probably learn much more about game design and avoid getting yourself into crippling debt. And a shipped game - or even an honest attempt at one - is worth far more in this industry than a degree. Working on a mod or indie project is still the best way of getting your foot in the door - especially in the capacity of a game designer. And who knows, if it's financially successful you may not even need a job anyway.
If anyone thinks you're going to go indie without money behind you, I can tell you it's a fools endeavour. Get a traditional degree, do games stuff on the side. This all said, going to college to do 'games design' probably wasn't a great move; you might not have the qualifications to actually get onto a traditional degree course.
If anyone thinks you're going to go indie without money behind you, I can tell you it's a fools endeavour. Get a traditional degree, do games stuff on the side. This all said, going to college to do 'games design' probably wasn't a great move; you might not have the qualifications to actually get onto a traditional degree course.
Do not go indie. If you think you want to go indie because you cannot afford uni, you are in for a financial shock on year down the line. Regardless, we are missing alot of information here.
What does game design level 3 mean? what is your experience? can you code? model? I would advise that unless you have a couple of prototype projects under your belt, and good spread of skills, take a uni course that will allow you to develop these skills.
Even if the course sucks, as mats effect mentioned, first and second year will give you plenty of time to work on personal projects, a very low interest loan to support yourself while doing so, and allow you to meet people who could help. And a degree even!
Level 3 means High School Diploma - he's done a high school diploma (I assume an NVQ) in 'Game Design', rather than take A-Levels in more traditional subjects like Mathematics, IT or sciences.
He's in the UK. Fees are paid by loans from the government that you pay back in tax when you leave and reach a specific income limit. Pretty much every course will cost £9000 per year and last for three years.
I'm not sure how university works in your area. I would strongly advise against attending an art school or other for-profit university focused on game development. These tend to be overpriced and focus on teaching software. (which is the wrong approach) You would be much better off attending a traditional university, and applying to various scholarships for them. You can take a major with a lighter workload, and take some minors that will help out with your game development.
If you lean toward the artistic side of things, I would recommend a major in fine arts or graphic design, and a minor in programming. If you have slightly more technical proficiency, get your major in Computer Science, and your minor in art, music, or theater. (or possibly literature)
Don't know if there is really a stand out games program at any uni in the UK at the moment. Staffs uni is pretty good, I went there and they are improving all the time.
Teeside has always had the best reputation from what I know anyway though its slap bang in the middle of a not so nice area.
Engineering wise Central Lancashire is good for gameplay. Their design course is quite poor however.
I'm not sure I could recommend doing a games course. There are 8000 jobs total in the UK games industry, and universities are pumping out 1500 odd games graduates a year. A traditional degree will help land a job whilst you build up your skills and work on getting a games job.
I am having my Master's Degree on Game Technologies ( or GATE) in the best University of the country, and the curriculum includes both design and technical courses.
The Production Pipeline and Design courses were must first semester and guess what happened ? You don't write a paper about designing games you are supposed to make a small game with random 2 other people from the same course by the end of semester and present it to people on a semester-end fair.
So... start doing indie thing because that is what you ae going to do in the end. Trust me
Don't know if there is really a stand out games program at any uni in the UK at the moment. Staffs uni is pretty good, I went there and they are improving all the time.
Teeside has always had the best reputation from what I know anyway though its slap bang in the middle of a not so nice area.
I've heard Teesside's reputation is awful tbh from a good many people (including former students). I'd say Hertfordshire's course is pretty solid.
I would say if you do go for a university course, find one that specialises in one field rather than being a general "all in one" games course.
At the end of the day, what you put in = what you get out of it. Most of your learning will most likely come from self study but working towards a degree certainly does help motivate you (especially when you know that failing that degree still means years of loan replacements :thumbdown:).
A degree also helps should you want to move to a country that gives out work visas based on points accumulated via work experience/education.
That and the university experience is certainly a good one, one that I don't think most people regret doing.
Just make sure you find a good, specialised course.
You can do both, but bear in mind that uni funding is finite.
You have 5 years worth of funding for uni (at least that was the case with Bradford LEA 5 years ago), which allows for two false starts if needed, otherwise it's 3 years of funding and that's that.
I did a uni degree after school in a relatively unrelated field. Now I'm working indie and would love to go back to education full time to really hone my skills but I've used up my funding so that's not an option now.
Social expectations notwithstanding, there's nothing stopping you trying at indie dev first and going to uni afterwards. You might hate it - at least then you still have the option of a degree in another field.
If you are rich/very skilled or supported by an understanding family or all of the above then go indie, if not then go to uni and stay true to your indie ideas but while you are under the wings of education use every minute to learn as much as possible and grow your idea at the same time, i.e. adapt every possible brief into your project so you can learn as much as you can, test out ideas and don't worry if they fail so long as document why it failed and explain your new direction then that's time you saved as an indie.
Also go for funding/prises the UK Government can not hand out the cash quick enough to students with good ideas, I think its one of the biggest advantages a student has over a pro. Creative England for example have millions to hand out to great ideas like yours. Then there are student competitions like Dare to be Digital that you can win a BAFTA, there are countless games jams and most reputable Uni's will have a research lab that will off you a free office space for a year or two with hardware, software and business support and so much more once you graduate.
I wish students could go to Uni after a 3-5 years in an internship so they have all the core skills in place, imagine what an opportunity it is to have 3-4 years on a BA to make a game and the greatest portfolio at the same time!
If you go down the Uni route then look around for the best course, ask questions, staff skills, student showreel, costs and so on. If you are going to study in the UK then check out the courses on the Skillset website. http://www.creativeskillset.org/
If you go indie just keep it simple, i.e. think about your game idea and cut it down to 20% and make it good, 6-8 hours game play will do for your first title then expand.
This guy managed to do alone though Kickstarter, but my God the man has got some drive! hats off to him.
War Front is an incredibly ambitious game. It's a combination of real-time strategy, MOBA, role-playing game and third-person shooter, set in a wholly original universe. Impressive, moreso when you realize everything you see and hear in the video is the work of one guy.
From personal experience, I went to College (uni) and got myself into tons of debt, the whole time being told that I would never get anywhere without a degree.
So I got the degree and guess what most companies don't even mention it during interviews, it just isn't really necessary in this industry, what you show in your portfolio is everything.
If I could go back and do it again, I wouldn't have gone to college and would have just taught myself (which I ended up doing anyway since the college I went to was shit).
I have found the best way to teach myself things is to work on indie games, just don't expect them to make a bunch of money or anything, treat it as a learning experience and work your ass off.
Indie; you'll probably learn much more about game design and avoid getting yourself into crippling debt. And a shipped game - or even an honest attempt at one - is worth far more in this industry than a degree. Working on a mod or indie project is still the best way of getting your foot in the door - especially in the capacity of a game designer. And who knows, if it's financially successful you may not even need a job anyway.
In the game industry, you only ever need a degree if you are specifically trying to climb the ranks in management. Essentially, if you want to make it big in the corporate side of things, a college degree may prove necessary.
For just about every other role in game development, a degree is optional. For a few of the more technical disciplines, like programming, a degree is a good idea, but still not strictly necessary. All they care about is experience and results. The best way to accrue both is to actually work on producing your own software. Working a part-time job to pay the bills while spending the rest of your time as an indie developer is a pretty safe route.
In the game industry, you only ever need a degree if you are specifically trying to climb the ranks in management.
OR you want to work in another country. It's tough to emigrate without an official degree. I advocate against schools as well but the one time I relent is if the person in question wants to move to the States or Canada or whatever.
Regarding the crippling debt element, this doesn't really apply in the UK as the loan is government supplied and you only start paying it off once you earn a certain amount.
The interest is so small (especially at the minute due to the low base rate).
stay away from uni, go indie, you'll thank me later
This. If you are motivated you can learn what you need to by yourself. People are going to care more about how good you are and your portfolio than ANYTHING. PERIOD. Can you do the work well? It doesnt matter if you have fucking PHD in modeling (lel) if you can't model well you wont matter. If you are not already at a decent level in 3d and have learned a lot on your own then I'd say it's worth going to it to learn more but if you've already gotten that far on your own then what is the point? I know people who have gone to uni and suck really bad because they didn't put the time in, make excuses ect, so if you're not that type of person learn on your own and go indie, even if you're not making much if any money you're learning and NOT getting any bit into debt.
All that money you spend in school could be a down-payment on a house, car or fucking savings.
Try to avoid being US centric when giving advice. Over here schooling can run you the cost of a house, skipping school is justifiable because you already live in a country with a large game industry presence AND quite possibly one of the hardest countries to emigrate to.
But what if you live in a country that schooling is the cost of a car, where car ownership isn't a necessity because of robust public transportation?
When it comes to getting a work Visa years of schooling matter more than even professional experience and I've heard people complain that it's difficult to get governments to acknowledge indie or freelance experience.
ambershee: I swore I saw a $ sign! :P this is the trouble with debating something like this on an international forum, differences in wages, cost of living, taxes, and other expenses, makes it hard to give advice.
I'm in Australia and my Degree is worth about $20,000 but I don't have to pay until I get a job. While I know this is an art forum I think having a Degree is useful - in a world where these kinds of institutions of education still carry weight. That said it is not 'game degree' and since I don't see myself getting a job in the industry any time soon, I'm hoping it will be helpful.
Also like others have said here, going Indie might be better than uni (because costs) but you're laughing if you think you can just up and do it like you're in industry already (because costs.)
I got my degree in economics, and learned a lot of things I would have really struggled with on my own, or would have not been exposed to. I don't feel it was a mistake, even though I have never used it to get a job, but it does take time and money.
Making it as an indie developer is really hard, and I think it's basically dumb unless you have some part of you that refuses to do anything else, or you're just out of other options.
If you can get a government loan with a near zero interest rate, then that is a really good deal.
There are a lot of degree programs that are not very demanding that don't take up all your time, so you could do both.
If you are thinking about going indie, you may consider some other degree outside of art or CS. Basically anything is applicable.
ambershee: I swore I saw a $ sign! :P this is the trouble with debating something like this on an international forum, differences in wages, cost of living, taxes, and other expenses, makes it hard to give advice.
Haha, yeah. That's one of the reasons I brought up the numbers here and there in the thread.
The UK does have a disproportionately large game development scene*, and it's also one of the most influential. The issue though is that we do genuinely have too many graduates and juniors, which is why I would strongly advocate a more traditionally degree over a specialised one, despite the fact that there are some genuinely really good games orientated courses here. I suspect there could now be more unemployed (i.e not employed in games) games graduates than there are game developers in this country. Even if you're determined to get into games, you've got to be prepared to spend time to cut through the competition and get there.
*Unfortunately, I don't have the source to hand, but the UK has the second greatest proportion of game developers per capita than any other country; double the USA and Japan. Iceland actually wins out thanks to having a few hundred staff in a country with a population of only 300,000.
for the record I went indie and have been to uni, and I do not regret uni. My education was a bit cheaper than it costs now though. indie life *can* be quite insular, and uni exposes you to a bunch of new people, friends, new ideas, and information you would not think to seek out on your own. And you may meet potential indie teams in that environment. I still to this day draw upon some of the things I learned in uni, from subjects I may not have learned about on my own (eg, film studies/editing, photography, science of sound/audio)
As a graduate from this July just gone, with a 1st class honors in computer science & a award from microsoft in R&D i think i can chime in.
Other than the social aspect, i regret going to university and i paid 12k for my whole course because i got in before the price hike. The information i learnt was general at best, lacking depth and decent breadth. If i paid toward tutorials an self taught, i would be in a drastically better position than i am now.
Also, every grad position has around 20-70 applications & i must now support myself on benefits because there are no positions available anywhere. I'd work behind a till if circumstance could afford me to.
My advice, the same i would give to myself 3 years ago:
Get a part time job anywhere or preferable a apprenticeship in your profession and work on your portfolio in the mean time. buy tutorials to Eat3D and few other polycount "supported" sites and be happy you are saving ££££
It might be useful, if you don't have to get a huge loan to do it, to go to uni for something other than making games or art. Business or economics, for example. That's knowledge that would help you with the business side of things which a lot of indies and artists are lacking in.
UK degrees are £8500 per year from September 2013, this maybe creeping up to £9000 next year?
UK and EU applicants do not need to pay any of the fees when they enrol, the UK government will lend the cost of the entire course. Many applicants are also eligible for maintenance loans to cover rental and living costs.
The loan is repaid through salary taxation after graduation once your salary exceeds £21,000, and is calculated at 9% of your earnings above £21,000.
I need to look into what happens if you go and work abroad after study (not sure how the government tax you?), so i will get back to you on that one.
The loan is repaid through salary taxation after graduation once your salary exceeds £21,000, and is calculated at 9% of your earnings above £21,000.
I need to look into what happens if you go and work abroad after study (not sure how the government tax you?), so i will get back to you on that one.
The repayment is still 9% of your earnings, but the threshold changes based upon the living conditions in each country. In almost all cases (except maybe Aus and Scandinavia), you're much worse off if you leave the country. Some thresholds are as low as around £3000.
For the record, the UK threshold is not £21,000 any more, it's £16,365. This applies to everyone, if I'm not mistaken. That's the other legacy of the student loan price hike.
In the current economic climate, 9% is a pretty significant chunk out of your monthly pay packet.
If you went when I went (2005), an entire course cost 1/3rd of what is now one year (£3500). If you went a few years before me, it was free! It's amazing how much can change in around 15 years.
Replies
+1
There are good reasons to go to uni even if the course is total shit. You should have a good amount of free time so why not both.
Two VERY different options imo. Do you/can you want to/ go make a game or are you still quite inexperienced and need to learn a lot still.
What does game design level 3 mean? what is your experience? can you code? model? I would advise that unless you have a couple of prototype projects under your belt, and good spread of skills, take a uni course that will allow you to develop these skills.
Even if the course sucks, as mats effect mentioned, first and second year will give you plenty of time to work on personal projects, a very low interest loan to support yourself while doing so, and allow you to meet people who could help. And a degree even!
He's in the UK. Fees are paid by loans from the government that you pay back in tax when you leave and reach a specific income limit. Pretty much every course will cost £9000 per year and last for three years.
If you lean toward the artistic side of things, I would recommend a major in fine arts or graphic design, and a minor in programming. If you have slightly more technical proficiency, get your major in Computer Science, and your minor in art, music, or theater. (or possibly literature)
Otherwise the advice is sound.
Teeside has always had the best reputation from what I know anyway though its slap bang in the middle of a not so nice area.
I'm not sure I could recommend doing a games course. There are 8000 jobs total in the UK games industry, and universities are pumping out 1500 odd games graduates a year. A traditional degree will help land a job whilst you build up your skills and work on getting a games job.
The Production Pipeline and Design courses were must first semester and guess what happened ? You don't write a paper about designing games you are supposed to make a small game with random 2 other people from the same course by the end of semester and present it to people on a semester-end fair.
So... start doing indie thing because that is what you ae going to do in the end. Trust me
I've heard Teesside's reputation is awful tbh from a good many people (including former students). I'd say Hertfordshire's course is pretty solid.
At the end of the day, what you put in = what you get out of it. Most of your learning will most likely come from self study but working towards a degree certainly does help motivate you (especially when you know that failing that degree still means years of loan replacements :thumbdown:).
A degree also helps should you want to move to a country that gives out work visas based on points accumulated via work experience/education.
That and the university experience is certainly a good one, one that I don't think most people regret doing.
Just make sure you find a good, specialised course.
Good luck in your choice.
You have 5 years worth of funding for uni (at least that was the case with Bradford LEA 5 years ago), which allows for two false starts if needed, otherwise it's 3 years of funding and that's that.
I did a uni degree after school in a relatively unrelated field. Now I'm working indie and would love to go back to education full time to really hone my skills but I've used up my funding so that's not an option now.
Social expectations notwithstanding, there's nothing stopping you trying at indie dev first and going to uni afterwards. You might hate it - at least then you still have the option of a degree in another field.
Also go for funding/prises the UK Government can not hand out the cash quick enough to students with good ideas, I think its one of the biggest advantages a student has over a pro. Creative England for example have millions to hand out to great ideas like yours. Then there are student competitions like Dare to be Digital that you can win a BAFTA, there are countless games jams and most reputable Uni's will have a research lab that will off you a free office space for a year or two with hardware, software and business support and so much more once you graduate.
I wish students could go to Uni after a 3-5 years in an internship so they have all the core skills in place, imagine what an opportunity it is to have 3-4 years on a BA to make a game and the greatest portfolio at the same time!
If you go down the Uni route then look around for the best course, ask questions, staff skills, student showreel, costs and so on. If you are going to study in the UK then check out the courses on the Skillset website. http://www.creativeskillset.org/
If you go indie just keep it simple, i.e. think about your game idea and cut it down to 20% and make it good, 6-8 hours game play will do for your first title then expand.
This guy managed to do alone though Kickstarter, but my God the man has got some drive! hats off to him.
http://www.kickstart...pg-in-one-space
Universum
War Front is an incredibly ambitious game. It's a combination of real-time strategy, MOBA, role-playing game and third-person shooter, set in a wholly original universe. Impressive, moreso when you realize everything you see and hear in the video is the work of one guy.
Well that's my two cents, best of luck
From my personal experience..going to uni has turned me from a modeller to a game artist. Both are completely different.
But I'm not in that position, and you're not me
So I got the degree and guess what most companies don't even mention it during interviews, it just isn't really necessary in this industry, what you show in your portfolio is everything.
If I could go back and do it again, I wouldn't have gone to college and would have just taught myself (which I ended up doing anyway since the college I went to was shit).
I have found the best way to teach myself things is to work on indie games, just don't expect them to make a bunch of money or anything, treat it as a learning experience and work your ass off.
Yeah but the OP can get a degree for $9k, that's crazy cheap.
edit: oh wait, $9k a year, that's still pretty good.
That is still expensive compared to Canada. My former College had a game design program and tuition was around two hundred dollars a semester.
+1 totally agree.
For just about every other role in game development, a degree is optional. For a few of the more technical disciplines, like programming, a degree is a good idea, but still not strictly necessary. All they care about is experience and results. The best way to accrue both is to actually work on producing your own software. Working a part-time job to pay the bills while spending the rest of your time as an indie developer is a pretty safe route.
The interest is so small (especially at the minute due to the low base rate).
This. If you are motivated you can learn what you need to by yourself. People are going to care more about how good you are and your portfolio than ANYTHING. PERIOD. Can you do the work well? It doesnt matter if you have fucking PHD in modeling (lel) if you can't model well you wont matter. If you are not already at a decent level in 3d and have learned a lot on your own then I'd say it's worth going to it to learn more but if you've already gotten that far on your own then what is the point? I know people who have gone to uni and suck really bad because they didn't put the time in, make excuses ect, so if you're not that type of person learn on your own and go indie, even if you're not making much if any money you're learning and NOT getting any bit into debt.
All that money you spend in school could be a down-payment on a house, car or fucking savings.
Fifteen thousand dollars per year. Doesn't include accomodation, food or materials like hardware, software or books.
But what if you live in a country that schooling is the cost of a car, where car ownership isn't a necessity because of robust public transportation?
When it comes to getting a work Visa years of schooling matter more than even professional experience and I've heard people complain that it's difficult to get governments to acknowledge indie or freelance experience.
ambershee: I swore I saw a $ sign! :P this is the trouble with debating something like this on an international forum, differences in wages, cost of living, taxes, and other expenses, makes it hard to give advice.
You write lyrics or you sing Yozora ?
Because you just wrote a damn good "Ballad of the Artisan" masterpiece
it's pointless going to university
Ohhhh *background rap Music*
Also like others have said here, going Indie might be better than uni (because costs) but you're laughing if you think you can just up and do it like you're in industry already (because costs.)
Making it as an indie developer is really hard, and I think it's basically dumb unless you have some part of you that refuses to do anything else, or you're just out of other options.
If you can get a government loan with a near zero interest rate, then that is a really good deal.
There are a lot of degree programs that are not very demanding that don't take up all your time, so you could do both.
If you are thinking about going indie, you may consider some other degree outside of art or CS. Basically anything is applicable.
Haha, yeah. That's one of the reasons I brought up the numbers here and there in the thread.
The UK does have a disproportionately large game development scene*, and it's also one of the most influential. The issue though is that we do genuinely have too many graduates and juniors, which is why I would strongly advocate a more traditionally degree over a specialised one, despite the fact that there are some genuinely really good games orientated courses here. I suspect there could now be more unemployed (i.e not employed in games) games graduates than there are game developers in this country. Even if you're determined to get into games, you've got to be prepared to spend time to cut through the competition and get there.
*Unfortunately, I don't have the source to hand, but the UK has the second greatest proportion of game developers per capita than any other country; double the USA and Japan. Iceland actually wins out thanks to having a few hundred staff in a country with a population of only 300,000.
Other than the social aspect, i regret going to university and i paid 12k for my whole course because i got in before the price hike. The information i learnt was general at best, lacking depth and decent breadth. If i paid toward tutorials an self taught, i would be in a drastically better position than i am now.
Also, every grad position has around 20-70 applications & i must now support myself on benefits because there are no positions available anywhere. I'd work behind a till if circumstance could afford me to.
My advice, the same i would give to myself 3 years ago:
Get a part time job anywhere or preferable a apprenticeship in your profession and work on your portfolio in the mean time. buy tutorials to Eat3D and few other polycount "supported" sites and be happy you are saving ££££
me and burgone are in the same class and area, we live in the uk and uni fees are 8,620 per year!
UK and EU applicants do not need to pay any of the fees when they enrol, the UK government will lend the cost of the entire course. Many applicants are also eligible for maintenance loans to cover rental and living costs.
The loan is repaid through salary taxation after graduation once your salary exceeds £21,000, and is calculated at 9% of your earnings above £21,000.
I need to look into what happens if you go and work abroad after study (not sure how the government tax you?), so i will get back to you on that one.
Student protest when the fees went up.
[ame="
The repayment is still 9% of your earnings, but the threshold changes based upon the living conditions in each country. In almost all cases (except maybe Aus and Scandinavia), you're much worse off if you leave the country. Some thresholds are as low as around £3000.
For the record, the UK threshold is not £21,000 any more, it's £16,365. This applies to everyone, if I'm not mistaken. That's the other legacy of the student loan price hike.
In the current economic climate, 9% is a pretty significant chunk out of your monthly pay packet.
Edit: Found some secret sauce:
http://www.studentloanrepayment.co.uk/portal/page?_pageid=93,6678668&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL