Here's another thought. When you`re playing a fast paced game, or have an OH SHIT moment, you slam your thumb to the left or right or whatever, because you want to turn at 100%. What stops your thumb is the physical limitations of the stick. That little tiny bump on the touch pad is not going to stop you, and your thumb is probably going to go off the touch pad, messing up your intended movement.
Well, yes and no. It can function like one in theory though, if you really want to try it - just don't expect a great deal of quality (unless you want to capture particularly low-frequency sound)
likewise for the speaker portion - it's main purpose is to provide rumble & the feeling of motion. As far as I can guess the haptic feedback will trick your brain into feeling like you're rolling two track balls.
I've only seen this thing for a few hours, and I've already cooked up more than ten ideas for effectively using this controller for some kick-ass gameplay and player feedback. This thing is chock-full of potential, and I can't wait to start experimenting with it.
While there are plenty of questions still surrounding this controller, I am just excited that Valve is opting to try something different from the old dual-analog design. An experiment like this one is more likely to move things forward. It's also awesome that this device will not be limited to the SteamOS. This will go a long way toward making it a standard PC controller across all platforms. And that's what they really need to start making progress against the XBox 360 controller.
Im really not sure what to think. When using touch pads I find it difficult to maintain smaller movements as there is nothing dragging my thumb back to the middle. Its possible the curve and ridges could help with this. Then again because of the analog drag you often nudge nudge nudge when playing racing games. Im going to get a controller for sure. But I wont be sold until I use it.
Keep in mind guys, it's meant as a bridge between mouse + keyboard and console controllers. It's meant to be used in a PC environment, which doesn't normally have control sticks or any of the limitations therein.
Keep in mind guys, it's meant as a bridge between mouse + keyboard and console controllers. It's meant to be used in a PC environment, which doesn't normally have control sticks or any of the limitations therein.
But the issue that remains is that there are an incredible amount of games for console and console ports on PC as well. This controller doesn't look good at all for traditional button/twin-stick focused action games etc. So while this might be an effective controller for playing games that are designed for KB&M (RTS, puzzle, maybe FPS) then ok, but then it's terrible for the others. I use a controller for PC games where a KB&M would not suit and so I don't see how this controller will help me there.
If Steam wants their Steam Machines to compete for the console living room space then that will be the biggest issue.
Not really. Because unlike the other consoles, you have more choice for input. You want a thumb stick controller? Go for it.
yeah I know that's the great thing, that we have options.
What I'm getting at is that it will be difficult to have that kind of control agnosticism and actually have fun, responsive games.
As I said, I use a controller for games where a KB&M will not suit, while some will disagree with me (my housemate manages somehow) to me it means that those controls are simply not appropriate; they are poorly implemented or designed.
Now what I've learned from Wii-U, Sony Move, Kinect etc. is that's fine if you're the kind of consumer that is willing to buy into having options (which may well be the market Steam is aiming at.) But terrible for a market that needs consolidation: if the market your developing for already has the controller they might expect to use, and may not be willing to buy an alternative, it's going to be a risk of time and money to produce quality control sets for the alternatives. This is even worse if the game was designed with a particular control type in mind - easily demonstrated by console ports to PC where a joypad is clearly a better option than the slapped-on KB&M controls.
What I fear for the Steam controller is that, like the PS Move, it won't be prevalent enough to warrant solving the problems it does, especially since it can't cover all of them. A customer with a KB&M and a Steam controller will still have these problems. A customer with joypad and Steam Controller will still have these problems. A customer with all three will not, but they are rare.
Justin, a speaker is an example of a linear actuator - it's an electromagnetic coil that drives a permanent magnet, and that magnet is attached to the cone that makes the noise. In this case, the cone is the track pad. It's not a parlour trick - functionally speaking, it is a speaker.
A resonant linear actuator, linear actuators extends the category to all actuators with linear movement.
While resonant linear actuators and speakers share the same fundamentals it's a bit shortsighted to call it "just a speaker", since these are the best way to have compact haptic feedback.
I've only seen this thing for a few hours, and I've already cooked up more than ten ideas for effectively using this controller for some kick-ass gameplay and player feedback. This thing is chock-full of potential, and I can't wait to start experimenting with it.
Well, it will be for nothing is it is not precise enough.
In any case I don't have opinion about it. I will wait till I can try it out on my own. Marketing buzz doesn't impress me.
Well that's more reassuring, and is the kind of information that I think we need.
My biggest problem with all of Valves announcements was that they were just dry old announcements with no detailed information or demonstrations to communicate their benefit to customers.
I'm also not going to pretend I'm not bitter about there being no game announcements. Does Valve even make games anymore? Who knows....
Well that's more reassuring, and is the kind of information that I think we need.
My biggest problem with all of Valves announcements was that they were just dry old announcements with no detailed information or demonstrations to communicate their benefit to customers.
I think consumers are much wiser these days after decades of exaggeration and flat out bullshit from the gaming industry. The Oculus Rift for example wasn't really marketed at all, it exploded when people started watching YouTube videos of people losing there minds when playing with it. It never really had an announcement that put it on peoples radars, it was all reaction videos.
I want to see Valve get the majority of the media to there office and have them all make honest opinions of it. If its going up against the traditional controller it must be the best thing since sliced bread. Its important that Valve have that level of confidence in there product for it to succeed. Considering its just announced I wouldn't expect this to happen tomorrow, but its important it does to help people build confidence in the product.
Mixed feelings about this. I love the idea of a keyboard and mouse type of control that you can use while lying on the sofa BUT feel that it will be a halfway house neither as good as a regular controller or keyboard/mouse at their respective areas of control. Geuss we'll have to wait and see
What was that? You don't mean DOTA 2 do you? That was in beta for so long it could have already been considered released ages ago, the excitement gone.
I know that Valve don't owe us anything, and that they don't have to make Half-Life ep. 3 or even HL3, but their customers have been begging for it for ages. Valve are well respected big players that everyone watches and for last few years still they're no shows at major conventions and haven't release even trailers, previews or even discussed what kind of upcoming games they could be making and what the hell was Project F-Stop anyway?
Put simply, I'm just one of those grumble-butts that doesn't like Valve as the creators of Steam, but likes them as game developers. So I'm a bit disappointed that they have finally released this when it's not necessarily what people were asking for and then don't really provide the evidence that it will all be worth it.
And while I'm ranting, it's all just my perspective now of many companies who make new things but don't address their housework. Adobe, Apple, Autodesk, Nintendo, Microsoft, Sony, Valve and more all make things I like and are grateful for but... it's the little things, those little flaws that make you go, "what? they didn't see that coming?" or "why are you releasing this new product when you still taken care the old ones!" or "damn this problem is still here after five versions!"
Of course you can't please everyone, I'm not their masters.
story link
"This sounds weird, but it's almost like rolling two weighted trackballs that are too large to actually fit into the controller," Lambe said as he tried to explain what it's like to have one's thumbs on those two trackpads. "For camera controls, slide one thumb to the right, and you'll feel this ticking, like you're turning a physical control. Flick your thumb quickly, and this imaginary physical thing reacts like something with weight to it—the 'trackball' continues to roll for a bit, eventually coming to a rest. And since it's all controlled through the software, the same trackpad then becomes more like a mouse or a laptop trackpad when you're navigating through menus. Dynamic!"
Here's another thought. When you`re playing a fast paced game, or have an OH SHIT moment, you slam your thumb to the left or right or whatever, because you want to turn at 100%. What stops your thumb is the physical limitations of the stick. That little tiny bump on the touch pad is not going to stop you, and your thumb is probably going to go off the touch pad, messing up your intended movement.
Just something to think about.
I'm not trying to advocate for Valve's controller design, but more than a few times when that happens to me, my thumb starts to slip off the control stick and I end up barely hanging onto the stick trying to get to a good spot that I can reset my grip.
What was that? You don't mean DOTA 2 do you? That was in beta for so long it could have already been considered released ages ago, the excitement gone.
It still counts! Just because it was in an open beta for some time and they could afford a longer development time (Just like all their projects) doesn't make it not count.
I know that Valve don't owe us anything, and that they don't have to make Half-Life ep. 3 or even HL3, but their customers have been begging for it for ages. Valve are well respected big players that everyone watches and for last few years still they're no shows at major conventions and haven't release even trailers, previews or even discussed what kind of upcoming games they could be making and what the hell was Project F-Stop anyway?
They take their time with what has to be the perfect game, and they are one of the few companies that can afford to take all the time they need, I think we can rest easy knowing they are working on halflife3 in whatever iteration it is in now, but they just won't announce anything until its ready to announce.
Put simply, I'm just one of those grumble-butts that doesn't like Valve as the creators of Steam, but likes them as game developers. So I'm a bit disappointed that they have finally released this when it's not necessarily what people were asking for and then don't really provide the evidence that it will all be worth it.
Many wouldn't want to have valve doing anything but halflife, but in reality they've done more games after steam than they did before steam.
but they just won't announce anything until its ready to announce.
Yeah I know I'm being all entitled and crap they don't have to announce anything. I just feel that their general silence is to me at least, boring. I remember the original HL2 E3 demo in 2003 and the super amazing HL2 EP2/TF2/Portal combo trailer, they just blew my socks off. Now my socks have stayed on for far too long.
I think we can rest easy knowing they are working on halflife3 in whatever iteration it is in now
I'm more pessimistic than that. A lack of information and communication makes me uneasy, the fact the HL2 EP3 never got a release made this worse as it indicated that Valve were happy to switch gears in the middle of things and even abandon them if they think its a good idea (practically what they said themselves). But man, closure please; Legacy of Kain, Shadowman, Shenmue etc. it kills me.
OT with the controller though. It sounds a lot more neat now there's experience reports around, but I'm still a bit concerned about using it in instances where players need access to left and right thumbsticks as well as face buttons. People say we could use the underside buttons while your thumbs are focused on the sticks, but I'm not a fan of that. In FPS games it might work, but for third-person games with camera control it would be a problem - I'm a pathological camera tweaker in these games and rarely let a game take care of the camera for me, I practically play those games like FPS but with action buttons.
Maybe i'm outta the loop, but the biggest thing for me is "The Steam Controller is designed to work with all the games on Steam: past, present, and future."
I'm tired of checking games for controller compatibility, or finding that it only works half-way. I think it was a very smart move to corner the whole market of games like that; as long as it works as it should and has good word of mouth, they're going to sell a boatload of them.
The Steam Controller is designed to work with all the games on Steam: past, present, and future.
I clearly take that as to mean "Of course our controller is compatible with all the games, it's hackable and open source!"
In other words, there's nothing stopping you the consumer from putting in the effort to get it to work somehow. I sincerely doubt there is any enforceable way for Valve to make sure that literally all of them function properly with the controller out-of-the-box.
I clearly take that as to mean "Of course our controller is compatible with all the games, it's hackable and open source!"
In other words, there's nothing stopping you the consumer from putting in the effort to get it to work somehow.
Yeah thats what I thought, the great thing about using an xbox360 controller on your pc is that all games with console versions just switch over really nicely to the 360 controller and play perfectly. If they could get that same result straight out of the box with this new controller I would be very very impressed.
Ive played battlefield, mirrors edge, the witcher 2, assasins creed, burnout paradise and many other games on steam with my xbox360 controller and never had to set up the controls, just plugged it in and switched over and all the game UI and QTE icons and everything changed to work with the controller automatically
Guys, read the official announcement :P First paragraph in the giant, sky blue strip above the first image of the controller.
edit: They do an even better job of outlining how this would work further down, under "Shared Configurations". They have a tool that lets you create key-binding profiles for different games, and you can even share them over Steam. Switching a controller from gamepad mode to mouse + keyboard mode is actually pretty easy. All they'd have to do is run a check against a database or config file to see if a game supported gamepad input, then switch the controller accordingly. It'd be even easier if they control the OS.
Emulating a mouse + keyboatd is exactly what XPadder already does, but you have to pick your keybinding profile manually before you launch a game.
If you look at this diagram, you can see how the user has even managed to map quicksaving/loading, mouse scrolling, push to talk, and other non-essential keys like screen shot to the controller. That's all in addition the the standard controls required to play.
If he devoted two keys to modifiers, like Ctrl and Alt, and tweaked the keybindings in game to include them, he could quadruple the number of "buttons" on the controller very easily. I've been able to pack 56 distinct key inputs into a 360 controller this way. From there, it's just muscle memory.
Yeah I knew that. I was just pointing out that saying "it will work with all games" is a lot different that saying it has the software and potential to work with all of them, and even more different than an out-of-the-box experience.
under "Shared Configurations". They have a tool that lets you create key-binding profiles for different games, and you can even share them over Steam.
That's the real magic right there. Valve can't make every game compatible themselves and they can't advertise that all the games will be compatible if every customer has to figure it out for themselves. So what will work best is when dedicated players who do figure it out and essentially 'crack the code' of a good gamepad configuration for 'obscure game x' then every gamepad owner can instantly benefit.
Semantically they haven't done anything you've mentioned. "works with all games" always preceeds " in the Steam catalog." More over you're not defining "work" and nowhere do they use the tagline "out-of-the-box experience", which brings us to setup. Even an iPhone doesn't work "out-of-the-box". You have to remove those damn plastic adhesive strip thingies, or at least the one on the front. And don't get me started on that swipe gesture to unlock the screen saver. I mean, really? REALLY APPLE?! I waited six weeks in line for this thing on one (1) pot of white rice! Do you have any idea how much effort it took for me to stagger home and open that damn box?! Now I have to swipe my now bony, emaciated finger across the screen?! Then I have to do even MORE setup?! This is almost as bad as when that mother of two on the bus got all pissy because my pants malfunctioned and refused to pull themselves up! I mean seriously, what was I supposed to do? Pull them up myself?! When someone finds a product that really DOES work out of the box, can they please tell me? Because my cell mate's getting sick and tired of having to get off HIS ass and do everything. I think he's literally pissing in my cereal.
Semantically they haven't done anything you've mentioned. "works with all games" always preceeds " in the Steam catalog." More over you're not defining "work" and nowhere do they use the tagline "out-of-the-box experience", which brings us to setup. Even an iPhone doesn't work "out-of-the-box". You have to remove those damn plastic adhesive strip thingies, or at least the one on the front. And don't get me started on that swipe gesture to unlock the screen saver. I mean, really? REALLY APPLE?! I waited six weeks in line for this thing on one (1) pot of white rice! Do you have any idea how much effort it took for me to stagger home and open that damn box?! Now I have to swipe my now bony, emaciated finger across the screen?! Then I have to do even MORE setup?! This is almost as bad as when that mother of two on the bus got all pissy because my pants malfunctioned and refused to pull themselves up! I mean seriously, what was I supposed to do? Pull them up myself?! When someone finds a product that really DOES work out of the box, can they please tell me? Because my cell mate's getting sick and tired of having to get off HIS ass and do everything. I think he's literally pissing in my cereal.
I'm not sure if the coffee hasn't kicked in yet or i've missed the point entirely but what were you getting at? That games require a simple setup before you play. If you buy a console game, you still have to "open" it's packaging and place the disk in the drawer to play.
It's not magic...
Steam has to verify that you have the right drivers, software and Redistributables etc for the game to work. A simple one time setup which normally runs automatically and gets everything needed automatically is not a bad thing.
Semantically they haven't done anything you've mentioned. "works with all games" always preceeds " in the Steam catalog." More over you're not defining "work" and nowhere do they use the tagline "out-of-the-box experience", which brings us to setup. Even an iPhone doesn't work "out-of-the-box". You have to remove those damn plastic adhesive strip thingies, or at least the one on the front. And don't get me started on that swipe gesture to unlock the screen saver. I mean, really? REALLY APPLE?! I waited six weeks in line for this thing on one (1) pot of white rice! Do you have any idea how much effort it took for me to stagger home and open that damn box?! Now I have to swipe my now bony, emaciated finger across the screen?! Then I have to do even MORE setup?! This is almost as bad as when that mother of two on the bus got all pissy because my pants malfunctioned and refused to pull themselves up! I mean seriously, what was I supposed to do? Pull them up myself?! When someone finds a product that really DOES work out of the box, can they please tell me? Because my cell mate's getting sick and tired of having to get off HIS ass and do everything. I think he's literally pissing in my cereal.
Dude, I wasn't even that mad about it. I was just being sceptical and yes it is all about semantics.
Indeed I should clarify my language. By 'out-of-the-box' experience I'm referring to being in the position where you have the game, have a functioning controller plugged in and installed, and when the game starts the controller is detected and you can start playing immediately. Maybe you would adjust a few inputs or sensitivities because some games let you do that but otherwise the developers can rest assured that you as the player of the game will experience it as intended - with no additional effort on your behalf.
This is the kind of experience that consoles manage to have and to a reasonable degree, PC gamers with standard KB&M.
Not working would constitute a game not detecting hardware it was never designed to support, or supporting it in a barebones and unsatisfactory way. This would leave the player who wants to use that hardware with no option but to set it up themselves; assigning keys they don't know the ergonomics of, reinstalling drivers, using third-party hotkey programs. While the flexibility and customisability of PC gaming hardware has always been beneficial, there's no way for developers to assure that their customers will experience their game enjoyably with different hardware. It in no way represents the 'out-of-the-box' experience that literally sells many of the brands and indeed consoles themselves.
So when Valve comes out and says it's compatible with all their games I know this is logistically impossible; that I can't expect to be able to start just any game with the Steam Controller and have it work flawlessly and enjoyably, or even at all. Maybe future games that Valve may contract in the need for compatibility but old/current games that have no affiliation with Valve apart from Steam sales have no such binding.
So how could Valve say it is compatible with all without lying their faces off? I assume it's because they say that the device is hackable and SteamOS and Controller software is open-source, and thus they have provided the tools to make it work and with enough effort make it work in just the way we want.
I hope nobody misread my earlier post, as I'm praising the 'Shared Configurations' feature because I think this is what will make all of this all worthwhile. If people with the extra panache to actually get an old incompatible game to work with the Steam Controller and uploads their profiles directly to Steam then people can download and install it immediately - finally getting that 'out-of-the-box' experience PC gamers have been missing.
i think my biggest argument to people who've said "who cares about Steambox, i want valve to actually make a game for once" is this:
outside of half-life, Valve haven't directly made ANY hit games. and since half-life and its sequal were largely rail shooters anyway, i (personal opinion alert) didn't think they were all that amazing, as games. as tech demos they were fantastic during their respective time periods though.
Dota2, L4D, Team Fortress... all of those games were made by other teams who were then hired on by Valve or with the exception of L4D, published by them. Valve have quite a huge history of being exceptional talent scouts who enable great talent to make great games.
how do they enable them to make great games? 1. tech, 2. distribution.
they're internally working on the next iteration of their tech (source engine) and have just shown the next iteration of their (already overwhelmingly successful) distribution platform.
i honestly don't understand peoples surprise that this was the announcement and not a new game. valve have never ever ever been a blockbuster games maker. they've been a technical innovator and talent catcher. and that's what they're continuing to be.
how do they enable them to make great games? 1. tech, 2. distribution.
they're internally working on the next iteration of their tech (source engine) and have just shown the next iteration of their (already overwhelmingly successful) distribution platform.
i honestly don't understand peoples surprise that this was the announcement and not a new game. valve have never ever ever been a blockbuster games maker. they've been a technical innovator and talent catcher. and that's what they're continuing to be.
This is spot on. But then you have to remember that what everyone want's to know in regards to games, is what that talent is working on next. (The answer, for the most part, has been "sequels to the IP that got them hired").
outside of half-life, Valve haven't directly made ANY hit games. and since half-life and its sequal were largely rail shooters anyway, i (personal opinion alert) didn't think they were all that amazing, as games. as tech demos they were fantastic during their respective time periods though.
Dota2, L4D, Team Fortress... all of those games were made by other teams who were then hired on by Valve or with the exception of L4D, published by them. Valve have quite a huge history of being exceptional talent scouts who enable great talent to make great games.
To be honest, I never understood this argument. Dota 2 wasn't made by Icefrog alone. It was made by him and many other talented Valve employees. Same with TF2, CS and Portal series.
Just because Valve hired the original authors, doesn't mean they have not contributed any people or resources themselves. In fact, it is completely irrelevant where the original authors came from, because at the time of making the games in question, they were a part of Valve. It's not like Valve is buying out games that are about to go gold, slapping their logo on the box and patting themselves on the back.
As for Half Life series, while it may look simplistic now, it is a series that pioneered many things that are commonplace in games today. It certainly deserves all the hype it gets. I don't think anyone is expecting a copy of Half Life 2, but another jump like the one between Hl1 and HL2.
Dota was wildly successful as a mod before they started developing the sequal. and more importantly, Dotas development has always been, and will always be more heavily influenced by the actual players than any of its developers. and again, when you look at Dota2 it's pretty easy to see that Valve did the following:
spotted huge potential -
hired it -
gave it the tools -
gave it the distribution platform -
made a fuckton of money.
sure, Valve will have had some involvement in the development of Dota2, but the game isn't that vastly different from the original, if anything you could say it's major differences are the ability to buy shit in the game... ergo, Valves development input was monetisation.
CS at the time of release had very little development outside of what was already in the beta. again, it's developed over time but really... how much has it changed from the original "winning formula" that was sold to them?
face it man. Valve make great tech, and that's it. even their employee handbook says they're a mainly tech focused place of work.
sure, Valve will have had some involvement in the development of Dota2, but the game isn't that vastly different from the original, if anything you could say it's major differences are the ability to buy shit in the game... ergo, Valves development input was monetisation.
CS at the time of release had very little development outside of what was already in the beta. again, it's developed over time but really... how much has it changed from the original "winning formula" that was sold to them?
face it man. Valve make great tech, and that's it. even their employee handbook says they're a mainly tech focused place of work.
I'm glad to hear someone else finally telling it how it is with valve, they make great tech and swallow up talent, but they lack true game design sense, IMO. Half-life was a good game, but HL2 = overblown but fun tech demo.
I don't see "great tech" with valve... Dice, Guerrilla and Crytek do the job better, tech wise imho.
And with that contoller, i'm not pretty sure of its potential. I don't imagine myself playing a fighting game with that... i need 4 buttons on the right!. BTW, the camera control with a pad is horrible compared with a mouse.
Well, let's give time to time. Too many gadges like nokia ngage failed brutally and this might be another fiasco.
Being sarcastic, EA, at least... produces its games and origin looks better than steam. I think Valve should make good games instead of this.
I don't think you guys are giving Valve enough credit for what they added to L4D, Portal and TF2 to make them what they are today. They are FAR removed from what they were when Valve bought them.
I dont think you guys are giving credit for just how good hl1 and 2 were....I agree with Blaizer, other companies do tech much better than Valve.....
I think you've got used to lots of things that HL pioneered. Remember how awesome the gravity gun was, or the striders, headcrabs, the combine, Alyx, Barney, the fcking incredible snake dragon boss in the launch silo, the battles with the troopers that actually had good AI etc etc....
The controller sounds awesome to me, seems like the haptics stuff is going to be a lot of fun to play with All I know is, when Steam came out I was one of the people that ranted and raved against it, and now it's my main game platform. Valve is good at planning long-term, so I don't think any of these announcements are half-baked ideas that they won't follow through on.
I dont think you guys are giving credit for just how good hl1 and 2 were....I agree with Blaizer, other companies do tech much better than Valve.....
I think you've got used to lots of things that HL pioneered. Remember how awesome the gravity gun was, or the striders, headcrabs, the combine, Alyx, Barney, the fcking incredible snake dragon boss in the launch silo, the battles with the troopers that actually had good AI etc etc....
bah, you should all be ashamed of yourselves....
we haven't seen any of valves new tech though. which is why i said at the time of their release, hl/hl2 were amazing tech.
slightly off-topic: You guys should give HL2 ago with the Oculus Rift. It's an amazing experience. The game seems to be perfect for it having cinematics in which you can look and walk around. A lot of cool moments re-lived with the rift.
we haven't seen any of valves new tech though. which is why i said at the time of their release, hl/hl2 were amazing tech.
The Half Life games did have amazing tech. Perhaps more importantly, they had tech that was much better focused on what Valve was trying to achieve with those games. The lip-syncing system they designed for the Source engine is STILL one of the best implementations on the market. The physics system they implemented in Half Life 2 was one of the best and most complete solutions when it was used, and was meaningfully integrated into the game itself.
The technology that Valve develops doesn't focus just on rendering. That's something I appreciate. Crytek are the kings of making extremely pretty engines, but visuals alone aren't what the industry needs.
yeah look, i'm not trying to belittle Valve or their accomplishments, which are many. i'm just stating my opinion that they're essentially doing what they've always done well, and that's focusing on the technology that will enable others to do what valve don't really do as well.
Dota was wildly successful as a mod before they started developing the sequal. and more importantly, Dotas development has always been, and will always be more heavily influenced by the actual players than any of its developers. and again, when you look at Dota2 it's pretty easy to see that Valve did the following:
spotted huge potential -
hired it -
gave it the tools -
gave it the distribution platform -
made a fuckton of money.
sure, Valve will have had some involvement in the development of Dota2, but the game isn't that vastly different from the original, if anything you could say it's major differences are the ability to buy shit in the game... ergo, Valves development input was monetisation.
CS at the time of release had very little development outside of what was already in the beta. again, it's developed over time but really... how much has it changed from the original "winning formula" that was sold to them?
face it man. Valve make great tech, and that's it. even their employee handbook says they're a mainly tech focused place of work.
I think we might be discussing two different things. My post was about the authorship of the discussed games, not their originality. Dota 2 is Valve's game as much as HL2, because it was developed by their employees. To claim that they are somewhat less of a games company, because the ideas used in their games came from a different source (that was later incorporated into the company), would disqualify most of the existing games studios. After all we are talking about an industry that is built upon cloning and copying concepts.
As for games like CS and Dota2, their design serves a much more functional than in the games like Portal or HL. Since they are e-sports, they are governed by much different rules. The balancing and subtle tweaks to their underlying systems are far more important than sweeping changes to the established formula. In fact, a decision to not change the formula is a design choice. Art and sound also have a big impact in these types of games as they affect the player feedback, enemy awareness, character/spell discernability, etc.
My whole point is that if we detach the "concept" from the final game, we are left with hundreds of low-level decisions that impact the dynamic, pacing, balancing and feel of a game. In my eyes, Valve has every right to call these games theirs, because they saw them through all stages of development.
And by the way, just to be clear, I'm talking only about the games they have developed, not their original versions like TF or CS. I'm being super literal in this whole post :poly142:
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Just something to think about.
likewise for the speaker portion - it's main purpose is to provide rumble & the feeling of motion. As far as I can guess the haptic feedback will trick your brain into feeling like you're rolling two track balls.
While there are plenty of questions still surrounding this controller, I am just excited that Valve is opting to try something different from the old dual-analog design. An experiment like this one is more likely to move things forward. It's also awesome that this device will not be limited to the SteamOS. This will go a long way toward making it a standard PC controller across all platforms. And that's what they really need to start making progress against the XBox 360 controller.
http://www.xi3.com/
But the issue that remains is that there are an incredible amount of games for console and console ports on PC as well. This controller doesn't look good at all for traditional button/twin-stick focused action games etc. So while this might be an effective controller for playing games that are designed for KB&M (RTS, puzzle, maybe FPS) then ok, but then it's terrible for the others. I use a controller for PC games where a KB&M would not suit and so I don't see how this controller will help me there.
If Steam wants their Steam Machines to compete for the console living room space then that will be the biggest issue.
Not really. Because unlike the other consoles, you have more choice for input. You want a thumb stick controller? Go for it.
yeah I know that's the great thing, that we have options.
What I'm getting at is that it will be difficult to have that kind of control agnosticism and actually have fun, responsive games.
As I said, I use a controller for games where a KB&M will not suit, while some will disagree with me (my housemate manages somehow) to me it means that those controls are simply not appropriate; they are poorly implemented or designed.
Now what I've learned from Wii-U, Sony Move, Kinect etc. is that's fine if you're the kind of consumer that is willing to buy into having options (which may well be the market Steam is aiming at.) But terrible for a market that needs consolidation: if the market your developing for already has the controller they might expect to use, and may not be willing to buy an alternative, it's going to be a risk of time and money to produce quality control sets for the alternatives. This is even worse if the game was designed with a particular control type in mind - easily demonstrated by console ports to PC where a joypad is clearly a better option than the slapped-on KB&M controls.
What I fear for the Steam controller is that, like the PS Move, it won't be prevalent enough to warrant solving the problems it does, especially since it can't cover all of them. A customer with a KB&M and a Steam controller will still have these problems. A customer with joypad and Steam Controller will still have these problems. A customer with all three will not, but they are rare.
A resonant linear actuator, linear actuators extends the category to all actuators with linear movement.
While resonant linear actuators and speakers share the same fundamentals it's a bit shortsighted to call it "just a speaker", since these are the best way to have compact haptic feedback.
In any case I don't have opinion about it. I will wait till I can try it out on my own. Marketing buzz doesn't impress me.
Super Meat Boy dev's take on the controller.
Well that's more reassuring, and is the kind of information that I think we need.
My biggest problem with all of Valves announcements was that they were just dry old announcements with no detailed information or demonstrations to communicate their benefit to customers.
I'm also not going to pretend I'm not bitter about there being no game announcements. Does Valve even make games anymore? Who knows....
They released one two months ago!
I think consumers are much wiser these days after decades of exaggeration and flat out bullshit from the gaming industry. The Oculus Rift for example wasn't really marketed at all, it exploded when people started watching YouTube videos of people losing there minds when playing with it. It never really had an announcement that put it on peoples radars, it was all reaction videos.
I want to see Valve get the majority of the media to there office and have them all make honest opinions of it. If its going up against the traditional controller it must be the best thing since sliced bread. Its important that Valve have that level of confidence in there product for it to succeed. Considering its just announced I wouldn't expect this to happen tomorrow, but its important it does to help people build confidence in the product.
What was that? You don't mean DOTA 2 do you? That was in beta for so long it could have already been considered released ages ago, the excitement gone.
I know that Valve don't owe us anything, and that they don't have to make Half-Life ep. 3 or even HL3, but their customers have been begging for it for ages. Valve are well respected big players that everyone watches and for last few years still they're no shows at major conventions and haven't release even trailers, previews or even discussed what kind of upcoming games they could be making and what the hell was Project F-Stop anyway?
Put simply, I'm just one of those grumble-butts that doesn't like Valve as the creators of Steam, but likes them as game developers. So I'm a bit disappointed that they have finally released this when it's not necessarily what people were asking for and then don't really provide the evidence that it will all be worth it.
And while I'm ranting, it's all just my perspective now of many companies who make new things but don't address their housework. Adobe, Apple, Autodesk, Nintendo, Microsoft, Sony, Valve and more all make things I like and are grateful for but... it's the little things, those little flaws that make you go, "what? they didn't see that coming?" or "why are you releasing this new product when you still taken care the old ones!" or "damn this problem is still here after five versions!"
Of course you can't please everyone, I'm not their masters.
story link
"This sounds weird, but it's almost like rolling two weighted trackballs that are too large to actually fit into the controller," Lambe said as he tried to explain what it's like to have one's thumbs on those two trackpads. "For camera controls, slide one thumb to the right, and you'll feel this ticking, like you're turning a physical control. Flick your thumb quickly, and this imaginary physical thing reacts like something with weight to it—the 'trackball' continues to roll for a bit, eventually coming to a rest. And since it's all controlled through the software, the same trackpad then becomes more like a mouse or a laptop trackpad when you're navigating through menus. Dynamic!"
It still counts! Just because it was in an open beta for some time and they could afford a longer development time (Just like all their projects) doesn't make it not count.
They take their time with what has to be the perfect game, and they are one of the few companies that can afford to take all the time they need, I think we can rest easy knowing they are working on halflife3 in whatever iteration it is in now, but they just won't announce anything until its ready to announce.
Many wouldn't want to have valve doing anything but halflife, but in reality they've done more games after steam than they did before steam.
Yeah I know I'm being all entitled and crap they don't have to announce anything. I just feel that their general silence is to me at least, boring. I remember the original HL2 E3 demo in 2003 and the super amazing HL2 EP2/TF2/Portal combo trailer, they just blew my socks off. Now my socks have stayed on for far too long.
I'm more pessimistic than that. A lack of information and communication makes me uneasy, the fact the HL2 EP3 never got a release made this worse as it indicated that Valve were happy to switch gears in the middle of things and even abandon them if they think its a good idea (practically what they said themselves). But man, closure please; Legacy of Kain, Shadowman, Shenmue etc. it kills me.
OT with the controller though. It sounds a lot more neat now there's experience reports around, but I'm still a bit concerned about using it in instances where players need access to left and right thumbsticks as well as face buttons. People say we could use the underside buttons while your thumbs are focused on the sticks, but I'm not a fan of that. In FPS games it might work, but for third-person games with camera control it would be a problem - I'm a pathological camera tweaker in these games and rarely let a game take care of the camera for me, I practically play those games like FPS but with action buttons.
I'm tired of checking games for controller compatibility, or finding that it only works half-way. I think it was a very smart move to corner the whole market of games like that; as long as it works as it should and has good word of mouth, they're going to sell a boatload of them.
I clearly take that as to mean "Of course our controller is compatible with all the games, it's hackable and open source!"
In other words, there's nothing stopping you the consumer from putting in the effort to get it to work somehow. I sincerely doubt there is any enforceable way for Valve to make sure that literally all of them function properly with the controller out-of-the-box.
Yeah thats what I thought, the great thing about using an xbox360 controller on your pc is that all games with console versions just switch over really nicely to the 360 controller and play perfectly. If they could get that same result straight out of the box with this new controller I would be very very impressed.
Ive played battlefield, mirrors edge, the witcher 2, assasins creed, burnout paradise and many other games on steam with my xbox360 controller and never had to set up the controls, just plugged it in and switched over and all the game UI and QTE icons and everything changed to work with the controller automatically
Guys, read the official announcement :P First paragraph in the giant, sky blue strip above the first image of the controller.
edit: They do an even better job of outlining how this would work further down, under "Shared Configurations". They have a tool that lets you create key-binding profiles for different games, and you can even share them over Steam. Switching a controller from gamepad mode to mouse + keyboard mode is actually pretty easy. All they'd have to do is run a check against a database or config file to see if a game supported gamepad input, then switch the controller accordingly. It'd be even easier if they control the OS.
Emulating a mouse + keyboatd is exactly what XPadder already does, but you have to pick your keybinding profile manually before you launch a game.
If you look at this diagram, you can see how the user has even managed to map quicksaving/loading, mouse scrolling, push to talk, and other non-essential keys like screen shot to the controller. That's all in addition the the standard controls required to play.
If he devoted two keys to modifiers, like Ctrl and Alt, and tweaked the keybindings in game to include them, he could quadruple the number of "buttons" on the controller very easily. I've been able to pack 56 distinct key inputs into a 360 controller this way. From there, it's just muscle memory.
That's the real magic right there. Valve can't make every game compatible themselves and they can't advertise that all the games will be compatible if every customer has to figure it out for themselves. So what will work best is when dedicated players who do figure it out and essentially 'crack the code' of a good gamepad configuration for 'obscure game x' then every gamepad owner can instantly benefit.
Semantically they haven't done anything you've mentioned. "works with all games" always preceeds " in the Steam catalog." More over you're not defining "work" and nowhere do they use the tagline "out-of-the-box experience", which brings us to setup. Even an iPhone doesn't work "out-of-the-box". You have to remove those damn plastic adhesive strip thingies, or at least the one on the front. And don't get me started on that swipe gesture to unlock the screen saver. I mean, really? REALLY APPLE?! I waited six weeks in line for this thing on one (1) pot of white rice! Do you have any idea how much effort it took for me to stagger home and open that damn box?! Now I have to swipe my now bony, emaciated finger across the screen?! Then I have to do even MORE setup?! This is almost as bad as when that mother of two on the bus got all pissy because my pants malfunctioned and refused to pull themselves up! I mean seriously, what was I supposed to do? Pull them up myself?! When someone finds a product that really DOES work out of the box, can they please tell me? Because my cell mate's getting sick and tired of having to get off HIS ass and do everything. I think he's literally pissing in my cereal.
I'm not sure if the coffee hasn't kicked in yet or i've missed the point entirely but what were you getting at? That games require a simple setup before you play. If you buy a console game, you still have to "open" it's packaging and place the disk in the drawer to play.
It's not magic...
Steam has to verify that you have the right drivers, software and Redistributables etc for the game to work. A simple one time setup which normally runs automatically and gets everything needed automatically is not a bad thing.
I was being sarcastic
Dude, I wasn't even that mad about it. I was just being sceptical and yes it is all about semantics.
Indeed I should clarify my language. By 'out-of-the-box' experience I'm referring to being in the position where you have the game, have a functioning controller plugged in and installed, and when the game starts the controller is detected and you can start playing immediately. Maybe you would adjust a few inputs or sensitivities because some games let you do that but otherwise the developers can rest assured that you as the player of the game will experience it as intended - with no additional effort on your behalf.
This is the kind of experience that consoles manage to have and to a reasonable degree, PC gamers with standard KB&M.
Not working would constitute a game not detecting hardware it was never designed to support, or supporting it in a barebones and unsatisfactory way. This would leave the player who wants to use that hardware with no option but to set it up themselves; assigning keys they don't know the ergonomics of, reinstalling drivers, using third-party hotkey programs. While the flexibility and customisability of PC gaming hardware has always been beneficial, there's no way for developers to assure that their customers will experience their game enjoyably with different hardware. It in no way represents the 'out-of-the-box' experience that literally sells many of the brands and indeed consoles themselves.
So when Valve comes out and says it's compatible with all their games I know this is logistically impossible; that I can't expect to be able to start just any game with the Steam Controller and have it work flawlessly and enjoyably, or even at all. Maybe future games that Valve may contract in the need for compatibility but old/current games that have no affiliation with Valve apart from Steam sales have no such binding.
So how could Valve say it is compatible with all without lying their faces off? I assume it's because they say that the device is hackable and SteamOS and Controller software is open-source, and thus they have provided the tools to make it work and with enough effort make it work in just the way we want.
I hope nobody misread my earlier post, as I'm praising the 'Shared Configurations' feature because I think this is what will make all of this all worthwhile. If people with the extra panache to actually get an old incompatible game to work with the Steam Controller and uploads their profiles directly to Steam then people can download and install it immediately - finally getting that 'out-of-the-box' experience PC gamers have been missing.
outside of half-life, Valve haven't directly made ANY hit games. and since half-life and its sequal were largely rail shooters anyway, i (personal opinion alert) didn't think they were all that amazing, as games. as tech demos they were fantastic during their respective time periods though.
Dota2, L4D, Team Fortress... all of those games were made by other teams who were then hired on by Valve or with the exception of L4D, published by them. Valve have quite a huge history of being exceptional talent scouts who enable great talent to make great games.
how do they enable them to make great games? 1. tech, 2. distribution.
they're internally working on the next iteration of their tech (source engine) and have just shown the next iteration of their (already overwhelmingly successful) distribution platform.
i honestly don't understand peoples surprise that this was the announcement and not a new game. valve have never ever ever been a blockbuster games maker. they've been a technical innovator and talent catcher. and that's what they're continuing to be.
This is spot on. But then you have to remember that what everyone want's to know in regards to games, is what that talent is working on next. (The answer, for the most part, has been "sequels to the IP that got them hired").
Half Life was a MASSIVE game, any attempts to dispute this are just plain wrong :P
To be honest, I never understood this argument. Dota 2 wasn't made by Icefrog alone. It was made by him and many other talented Valve employees. Same with TF2, CS and Portal series.
Just because Valve hired the original authors, doesn't mean they have not contributed any people or resources themselves. In fact, it is completely irrelevant where the original authors came from, because at the time of making the games in question, they were a part of Valve. It's not like Valve is buying out games that are about to go gold, slapping their logo on the box and patting themselves on the back.
As for Half Life series, while it may look simplistic now, it is a series that pioneered many things that are commonplace in games today. It certainly deserves all the hype it gets. I don't think anyone is expecting a copy of Half Life 2, but another jump like the one between Hl1 and HL2.
spotted huge potential -
hired it -
gave it the tools -
gave it the distribution platform -
made a fuckton of money.
sure, Valve will have had some involvement in the development of Dota2, but the game isn't that vastly different from the original, if anything you could say it's major differences are the ability to buy shit in the game... ergo, Valves development input was monetisation.
CS at the time of release had very little development outside of what was already in the beta. again, it's developed over time but really... how much has it changed from the original "winning formula" that was sold to them?
face it man. Valve make great tech, and that's it. even their employee handbook says they're a mainly tech focused place of work.
I'm glad to hear someone else finally telling it how it is with valve, they make great tech and swallow up talent, but they lack true game design sense, IMO. Half-life was a good game, but HL2 = overblown but fun tech demo.
And with that contoller, i'm not pretty sure of its potential. I don't imagine myself playing a fighting game with that... i need 4 buttons on the right!. BTW, the camera control with a pad is horrible compared with a mouse.
Well, let's give time to time. Too many gadges like nokia ngage failed brutally and this might be another fiasco.
Being sarcastic, EA, at least... produces its games and origin looks better than steam. I think Valve should make good games instead of this.
I think you've got used to lots of things that HL pioneered. Remember how awesome the gravity gun was, or the striders, headcrabs, the combine, Alyx, Barney, the fcking incredible snake dragon boss in the launch silo, the battles with the troopers that actually had good AI etc etc....
bah, you should all be ashamed of yourselves....
we haven't seen any of valves new tech though. which is why i said at the time of their release, hl/hl2 were amazing tech.
The Half Life games did have amazing tech. Perhaps more importantly, they had tech that was much better focused on what Valve was trying to achieve with those games. The lip-syncing system they designed for the Source engine is STILL one of the best implementations on the market. The physics system they implemented in Half Life 2 was one of the best and most complete solutions when it was used, and was meaningfully integrated into the game itself.
The technology that Valve develops doesn't focus just on rendering. That's something I appreciate. Crytek are the kings of making extremely pretty engines, but visuals alone aren't what the industry needs.
I think we might be discussing two different things. My post was about the authorship of the discussed games, not their originality. Dota 2 is Valve's game as much as HL2, because it was developed by their employees. To claim that they are somewhat less of a games company, because the ideas used in their games came from a different source (that was later incorporated into the company), would disqualify most of the existing games studios. After all we are talking about an industry that is built upon cloning and copying concepts.
As for games like CS and Dota2, their design serves a much more functional than in the games like Portal or HL. Since they are e-sports, they are governed by much different rules. The balancing and subtle tweaks to their underlying systems are far more important than sweeping changes to the established formula. In fact, a decision to not change the formula is a design choice. Art and sound also have a big impact in these types of games as they affect the player feedback, enemy awareness, character/spell discernability, etc.
My whole point is that if we detach the "concept" from the final game, we are left with hundreds of low-level decisions that impact the dynamic, pacing, balancing and feel of a game. In my eyes, Valve has every right to call these games theirs, because they saw them through all stages of development.
And by the way, just to be clear, I'm talking only about the games they have developed, not their original versions like TF or CS. I'm being super literal in this whole post :poly142: