Yeah, I think they are trying to blur the lines, between console and PC. I think that's where people have having issues with understanding the 'target', because they are use to have that division
Ah but what you are forgetting is the performance boost from running games through an optimized linuxOS specifically for games. It all depends on how much you value performance.
One of the reasons for Valve going with Linux and making the claim that its the future of PC gaming is that it performs better. More than just the gaming industry uses linux for the speed boost.
See... this is interesting to me. If they can benchmark and show me how well things run here then i might consider it instead of upgrading my rig. But the presentation of it just seems uninteresting to the tech savvy.
Also... they still need to show the specs and control and more details.
Actually, after discussing with a friend, i wonder if the 3rd announcement is a combination of the previous 2. Maybe presenting an 'official' box (merging the 2 prev together). And that announcement will include the specs/controller/name.
I feel all options for the box they announced today will already come with the OS on it, Notman. They did say they have more on the controller soon, but i hope fridays announcement is more than just showing specs and controller. I want it to be an engine of some kind. Source 2 or whatever.
Obviously all those options would come on the 'machines' they announced. I'm extending my previous post a bit. I'm curious if they are following Google here: Offering an open OS, having multiple manufacturers (w/the OS), but also having an 'Official' device, that developed closely with Steam (like Google did on the Nexus). I'm just throwing out speculation, based on interpretations of the icon.
Obviously all those options would come on the 'machines' they announced. I'm extending my previous post a bit. I'm curious if they are following Google here: Offering an open OS, having multiple manufacturers (w/the OS), but also having an 'Official' device, that developed closely with Steam (like Google did on the Nexus). I'm just throwing out speculation, based on interpretations of the icon.
that is very much what i was thinking, they want to use open-source to make things cheap and have it work with multiple hardware manufactures, to get hardware running the steamOS in peoples living rooms, which of course features steam store at it's core, for buying games. Than i see them making additions to steam to add in the purchase of movies, tv shows, and music.
Kinda like the google play or itunes/appstore of the living room.
so a very similar approach to what Google did with the android OS. Think of the valve prototype hardware as the valve equivalent to nexus phones and tablets. While the market is still open for other hardware makers to adopt the OS and customize it.
I would really love to see some small form factor computers built by ASUS for steamOS.
Its an input device. It pretty much tells you at the end of the page. Wonder if its something that somehow combines all three (key+mouse+gamepad).
I'm not saying that WON'T be the announcement, because I agree that it's very possible, but that last line doesn't necessarily mean it will be the next announcement. I get the feeling we'll get a lot of details, once this 'announcement' phase is complete. Now that they've made it all official, I suspect they'll openly talk about all the details.
My only concern at this point is that the 2014 date sounds real late. The other two consoles will be out this year. And I'm sure 2014 will turn to late 2014.
My only concern at this point is that the 2014 date sounds real late. The other two consoles will be out this year. And I'm sure 2014 will turn to late 2014.
I was thinking that too. It'll be tough at first because all of the competition will be state of the art. In three years though, when PC's have evolved slightly ahead of consoles again, it may seem more viable.
I was thinking that too. It'll be tough at first because all of the competition will be state of the art. In three years though, when PC's have evolved slightly ahead of consoles again, it may seem more viable.
Not really. The new consoles are from the number crunching are only like a mid to lower end gaming computer GPU wise. They have super memory bandwidth however since its all unified.
In short, they really are not state of the art. A high end PC bought now still would blow them out of the water.
So if the SteamBox is mid range and released next year. Should be pretty much on par if not slightly have better abilities than the new consoles (except bandwidth wise)... Plus the ability to upgrade/replace the hardware.
@Equanim a mid range i7 with a gtx660 or better and 8gb or better, is still specs wise Superior to the ps4 and xboxOne. It has always been this way, where PC's lead the way as far as tech, since there not tied down in the same ways and individual components can be upgraded as they come out. Also to mention that console hardware is desgine to fit with in a certain budget, so even a next gen console is still using older tech and hardware or weaker hardware.
Historically this gap used to be larger too, since before consoles started running games at 1080p, consoles were running games and resolutions drastically lower than what PC's do. Even still true to this day, since there are very few console titles that render at 1080p that can actually run at a decent framerate, where with PC 1080 or above at 60fps or more is the norm.
PCs are always going to be the best way to get the most power, compared to consoles anyway. There is simply no upward limit as to what you can throw at them. The components are constantly getting upgraded, and you can buy the latest and greatest, and buy more than one of them. When I assembled my new gaming rig earlier this year, I dropped a pair of GTX 660s into it, and I run them in SLI mode. The thing is a processing beast.
The advantage that consoles have isn't in processing power, but in efficiency. With a console you can design for a single hardware spec, and you can design the hardware itself specifically for running games. (instead of the more general applications of the average PC) These lines have gotten blurred in recent years. But with the PS4 and XBox One I think we're seeing a return to systems that are better designed to optimize gaming in an affordable box.
Oddly enough, SteamOS is actually the best method to close the gap between the average PC and the PS4/XBox One. One of the biggest hurdles holding PC performance back is bloated operating systems like Windows. A stripped-down version of Linux like SteamOS could provide much better optimized performance for standard PC hardware. It would make it much easier to take advantage of all the power that a modern PC is capable of.
So a $1,000 SteamOS box will probably be able to run better than a comparable Windows machine.
Not really. The new consoles are from the number crunching are only like a mid to lower end gaming computer GPU wise. They have super memory bandwidth however since its all unified.
In short, they really are not state of the art. A high end PC bought now still would blow them out of the water.
So if the SteamBox is mid range and released next year. Should be pretty much on par if not slightly have better abilities than the new consoles (except bandwidth wise)... Plus the ability to upgrade/replace the hardware.
Carmack said a while back that the sort of optimization you can do for consoles effectively makes them twice as good as their specs (shourche), so think mid+ now, and will probably hold that position for a few years. They might not be 'twice as good' straight away, but probably at least 1.4 to 1.6 times better than expected from the same specs
First party teams, especially on Sony's side (Polyphony, Santa Monica, Naughty Dog for example) will probably push it to what you'd think is three times as good as you'd expect from the specs, especially a few years down the line - this is based on recent events for the PS3, and the news of the PS4, but there's no reason to assume it won't happen again.
That said, releasing a year or so later can be a massive gain for valve if they can combine even 'decent' optimization and more modern hardware. Pricing if going to be paramount though - it has to be significantly cheaper than anything better than it and significantly better than anything cheaper than it, or it won't fit in the market.
Oh, and congratulations to the Valve marketing folks. Well played, this is fun, interesting and great.
The GUI icon designer, on the other hand, should be fired. I know it's trendy and hipster to have vague, stylish icons, but if an icon doesn't instantly show, with no confusion or room for interpretation, the purpose, name, identity and use of something, you have failed.
Dont forget Oculus Support and some of the newer 3rd party hardware coming out will also be giving the Steambox the edge when it comes to that kind of appeal and marketing prowess.
It's pretty obvious the third one will be the controller, no? The " O+O " and then this patent: http://www.google.com/patents/US20110105231, their suggestion to stay tuned for more news about a controller... Tbh this is almost the most interesting thing, this could replace the Xbox controller as the standard PC controller.
Carmack said a while back that the sort of optimization you can do for consoles effectively makes them twice as good as their specs (shourche), so think mid+ now, and will probably hold that position for a few years. They might not be 'twice as good' straight away, but probably at least 1.4 to 1.6 times better than expected from the same specs
This only works because console platforms are completely standardised (with minor exceptions). The Steam Machines will have recommnded specifications, but will not have this advantage at all. The only advantage they will have is not having the colossal bloat of Windows running in the background all the time.
This only works because console platforms are completely standardised (with minor exceptions). The Steam Machines will have recommnded specifications, but will not have this advantage at all. The only advantage they will have is not having the colossal bloat of Windows running in the background all the time.
True, but look at it from other perspective. There are only two meangfull GPU providers (AMD, NVIDIA), so on theory you can create highly optimized low level access API for both. You can optimize drivers and OpenGLm to very high point to access GPUs more directly.
This is actually possible under Linux, dunno if it would be really possible on Windows.
In Linux drivers and API (OpenGL) live in the same space essentialy.
also powerwise computers are still way ahead even if not as efficient, my computer has arelady been around for a while but as 8x the ram of a ps4, than a additional 2gb vram, than in the console the cpu and graphics rendering are one chip, compared to pc where both on there own are atleast 4x more powerfull.
It's pretty obvious the third one will be the controller, no? The " O+O " and then this patent: http://www.google.com/patents/US20110105231, their suggestion to stay tuned for more news about a controller... Tbh this is almost the most interesting thing, this could replace the Xbox controller as the standard PC controller.
Yeah I agree. This actually sounds the most exciting. Source 2 would be cool but we all know it is in the making and it will probably at least as usable for common folk as Source 1 was (and it will be better in this matter).
Yeah I agree. This actually sounds the most exciting. Source 2 would be cool but we all know it is in the making and it will probably at least as usable for common folk as Source 1 was (and it will be better in this matter).
also source 2 wont mean much to the average consumer, if it was to be announced i would see that happening at a event like gdc
Uhhhhh, is it just me or does this look terrible? If I wanted to use touch pads, id play a game on my phone... Oh wait.... those controls are terrible
I dunno. maybe it could be good, but from the experiences ive had with touch pad gaming, Im hesitant.
I think it looks odd because there's no large protrusions (analogue joysticks), and therefore it looks like there's something missing. The A, B, X and Y buttons strike me as being oddly placed, too - In the example they have, they've got PTT set to one of those buttons, which'd mean taking your thumb off've aiming to be able to communicate with your team. Seems like a bad idea!
I'm with you on the touchpads. I can't stand touchscreen controls and hope it translates better here.
I admit it sets off a few alarm bells, like the lack of tactile buttons/analogs, and I wonder how long those track pads will last under consistent use-- but at this point I'll keep an open mind because game controllers can't continue to look like the xbox 360's for all time.
Slipsius, it looks GREAT though I can understand your reservations. Have you worked with anything in the area of haptic feedback? If done right it easy surpasses what a normal button would and could achieve in terms of feel and recognition. Though I would generally want to see more variation in input types and emerging technologies, I dont think its a bad start by any means. Its definitely unique...in a good way. I am curious how well it can replace a mouse though.
Ideally I would hope we can move away from attached controllers and have something that fits into each hand separately. They probably felt this form factor was the safest/most familiar though.
I dunno. maybe it could be good, but from the experiences ive had with touch pad gaming, Im hesitant.
You need to consider the possibilities.
(also, for the record, called it again! 2 for 3 isn't too bad on predictions)
Back on topic, I am seriously impressed by this controller design. Valve had lost me a little with the non-announcement on Wednesday. But I'm excited again after this reveal. This is what they needed, a new kind of controller designed with PC gaming in mind. A handheld device that could capably serve as a mouse analog. Two high-resolution circular touchpads instead of analog sticks? Brilliant! Both pads are capable of serving as either a mouse-analog or a joystick analog.
This is a genuine attempt at a new approach to a controller interface. I'm excited to hear impressions from the beta test.
Ya, valve does tend to know what they are doing, so i`ll definitely give it a chance. But touch controls have always been iffy, and it's purely based on that when you let go of the "stick", its hard to tell where the center is again. Yes, they have those little bump circles in the middle, but you need to feel around for them. Im sure you`d get use to it. I dunno. I guess we`ll see.
...but at this point I'll keep an open mind because game controllers can't continue to look like the xbox 360's for all time.
Why can't they? Controllers evolved to be like the Xbox/PS controllers, and they work. There's no sense in reinventing the wheel, just for the sake of reinventing. If it changes, to offer something new/innovative, then I'm all in.
I wasn't super excited about the design at first, but then again, I also hated Steam with a roaring passion when it first came out (granted, the whole "all the servers I play on are going down and my crappy machine can't run Steam worth a crap" didn't help at the time).
Personally, I have always HATED analogue sticks, so this could be...refreshing. Wonder what we're looking at so far as cost, though.
The Steam Controller is built around a new generation of super-precise haptic feedback, employing dual linear resonant actuators. These small, strong, weighted electro-magnets are attached to each of the dual trackpads. They are capable of delivering a wide range of force and vibration, allowing precise control over frequency, amplitude, and direction of movement.
This haptic capability provides a vital channel of information to the player - delivering in-game information about speed, boundaries, thresholds, textures, action confirmations, or any other events about which game designers want players to be aware. It is a higher-bandwidth haptic information channel than exists in any other consumer product that we know of.
after reading their brief it sounds pretty fucking neat to me. people can bitch about the pads but by the sound of it their goal is to make them as smooth as a mouse but with your thumb. I don't know about you guys, but while playing games like first person shooters, an analog stick does the job but by no means is it really as accurate as a mouse, and if this can capture your thumb movements in a specific way it could feel way better. The way I'm picturing it is like.. grab your mouse, swirl it in a couple circles. Could you do that accurately with an analog stick? Sure you'd get your circles but they're probably fumbly as shit. If these could capture the accuracy a mouse has that's a pretty big deal. I also like their touchscreen input device and the layers to the pads, how there's a second circle for an alternate input (such as run). real curious to see what people do and the changes they make going forward.
The flip side is that this looks useless for stuff like platformers or fighting games ...
Circular touchpads that are also clickable. Easy as pie to switch those things into circular d-pad analogs. You click the pad to actually register motion, and the area on the pad you are touching when you click it determines the direction. Extremely easy to execute circular fighting-game motions with an approach like this.
As has been correctly pointed out to me, it's basically two small circular trackpads each with a speaker attached to it.
I'm not overly convinced that it's going to be good enough to convey gameplay for almost any kind of action game (mouse reliant FPS, button-action platformer, hot-key reliant RTS) as well as contemporary input devices already do.
Though I guess it makes sense for Valve to release something like this because if people don't like this, there are plenty of alternatives people can use.
I think it's all in how well the haptic feedback works. There was a company at SIGGRAPH a while back (like '06) that had developed a mechanism, which was mounted on a block of wood, that when held would feel like your hand was being pulled in a specific direction. It was all done with haptic feedback. At the time, they were thinking of putting them in cell phones to aid with the GPS.
If it works THAT well, which it sounds like it does, then it could easily put Valve's controller a step ahead of the consoles'... but it would have to work REALLY well.
If you've ever played a driving sim in an arcade, Wipeout comes to mind, and felt the wheel push back when you hit another car or the side of the track, that's another form of haptics.
I'm picking one of these up when they're released.
If it works THAT well, which it sounds like it does, then it could easily put Valve's controller a step ahead of the consoles'... but it would have to work REALLY well.
Like I mentioned above - it is literally a speaker attached to a trackpad (they basically say so in the description). I'm not holding out for something amazing.
Like I mentioned above - it is literally a speaker attached to a trackpad (they basically say so in the description). I'm not holding out for something amazing.
Read again, it's literally linear actuators underneath trackpads - "As a parlour trick they can even play audio waveforms and function as speakers."
Justin, a speaker is an example of a linear actuator - it's an electromagnetic coil that drives a permanent magnet, and that magnet is attached to the cone that makes the noise. In this case, the cone is the track pad. It's not a parlour trick - functionally speaking, it is a speaker.
Justin, a speaker is an example of a linear actuator - it's an electromagnetic coil that drives a permanent magnet, and that magnet is attached to the cone that makes the noise. In this case, the cone is the track pad. It's not a parlour trick - functionally speaking, it is a speaker.
If you want to go that way then it's literally a microphone as well. Trackpads with microphones under them, yaaaaaaaawn.
If you want to go that way then it's literally a microphone as well. Trackpads with microphones under them, yaaaaaaaawn.
Well, yes and no. It can function like one in theory though, if you really want to try it - just don't expect a great deal of quality (unless you want to capture particularly low-frequency sound)
Replies
See... this is interesting to me. If they can benchmark and show me how well things run here then i might consider it instead of upgrading my rig. But the presentation of it just seems uninteresting to the tech savvy.
Also... they still need to show the specs and control and more details.
that is very much what i was thinking, they want to use open-source to make things cheap and have it work with multiple hardware manufactures, to get hardware running the steamOS in peoples living rooms, which of course features steam store at it's core, for buying games. Than i see them making additions to steam to add in the purchase of movies, tv shows, and music.
Kinda like the google play or itunes/appstore of the living room.
so a very similar approach to what Google did with the android OS. Think of the valve prototype hardware as the valve equivalent to nexus phones and tablets. While the market is still open for other hardware makers to adopt the OS and customize it.
I would really love to see some small form factor computers built by ASUS for steamOS.
I'm not saying that WON'T be the announcement, because I agree that it's very possible, but that last line doesn't necessarily mean it will be the next announcement. I get the feeling we'll get a lot of details, once this 'announcement' phase is complete. Now that they've made it all official, I suspect they'll openly talk about all the details.
I was thinking that too. It'll be tough at first because all of the competition will be state of the art. In three years though, when PC's have evolved slightly ahead of consoles again, it may seem more viable.
Not really. The new consoles are from the number crunching are only like a mid to lower end gaming computer GPU wise. They have super memory bandwidth however since its all unified.
In short, they really are not state of the art. A high end PC bought now still would blow them out of the water.
So if the SteamBox is mid range and released next year. Should be pretty much on par if not slightly have better abilities than the new consoles (except bandwidth wise)... Plus the ability to upgrade/replace the hardware.
Historically this gap used to be larger too, since before consoles started running games at 1080p, consoles were running games and resolutions drastically lower than what PC's do. Even still true to this day, since there are very few console titles that render at 1080p that can actually run at a decent framerate, where with PC 1080 or above at 60fps or more is the norm.
The advantage that consoles have isn't in processing power, but in efficiency. With a console you can design for a single hardware spec, and you can design the hardware itself specifically for running games. (instead of the more general applications of the average PC) These lines have gotten blurred in recent years. But with the PS4 and XBox One I think we're seeing a return to systems that are better designed to optimize gaming in an affordable box.
Oddly enough, SteamOS is actually the best method to close the gap between the average PC and the PS4/XBox One. One of the biggest hurdles holding PC performance back is bloated operating systems like Windows. A stripped-down version of Linux like SteamOS could provide much better optimized performance for standard PC hardware. It would make it much easier to take advantage of all the power that a modern PC is capable of.
So a $1,000 SteamOS box will probably be able to run better than a comparable Windows machine.
^So much this! :thumbup:
Carmack said a while back that the sort of optimization you can do for consoles effectively makes them twice as good as their specs (shourche), so think mid+ now, and will probably hold that position for a few years. They might not be 'twice as good' straight away, but probably at least 1.4 to 1.6 times better than expected from the same specs
First party teams, especially on Sony's side (Polyphony, Santa Monica, Naughty Dog for example) will probably push it to what you'd think is three times as good as you'd expect from the specs, especially a few years down the line - this is based on recent events for the PS3, and the news of the PS4, but there's no reason to assume it won't happen again.
That said, releasing a year or so later can be a massive gain for valve if they can combine even 'decent' optimization and more modern hardware. Pricing if going to be paramount though - it has to be significantly cheaper than anything better than it and significantly better than anything cheaper than it, or it won't fit in the market.
Oh, and congratulations to the Valve marketing folks. Well played, this is fun, interesting and great.
The GUI icon designer, on the other hand, should be fired. I know it's trendy and hipster to have vague, stylish icons, but if an icon doesn't instantly show, with no confusion or room for interpretation, the purpose, name, identity and use of something, you have failed.
This only works because console platforms are completely standardised (with minor exceptions). The Steam Machines will have recommnded specifications, but will not have this advantage at all. The only advantage they will have is not having the colossal bloat of Windows running in the background all the time.
This is actually possible under Linux, dunno if it would be really possible on Windows.
In Linux drivers and API (OpenGL) live in the same space essentialy.
Yeah I agree. This actually sounds the most exciting. Source 2 would be cool but we all know it is in the making and it will probably at least as usable for common folk as Source 1 was (and it will be better in this matter).
also source 2 wont mean much to the average consumer, if it was to be announced i would see that happening at a event like gdc
Uhhhhh, is it just me or does this look terrible? If I wanted to use touch pads, id play a game on my phone... Oh wait.... those controls are terrible
I dunno. maybe it could be good, but from the experiences ive had with touch pad gaming, Im hesitant.
I'm with you on the touchpads. I can't stand touchscreen controls and hope it translates better here.
We'll see, I suppose.
Slipsius, it looks GREAT though I can understand your reservations. Have you worked with anything in the area of haptic feedback? If done right it easy surpasses what a normal button would and could achieve in terms of feel and recognition. Though I would generally want to see more variation in input types and emerging technologies, I dont think its a bad start by any means. Its definitely unique...in a good way. I am curious how well it can replace a mouse though.
Ideally I would hope we can move away from attached controllers and have something that fits into each hand separately. They probably felt this form factor was the safest/most familiar though.
You need to consider the possibilities.
(also, for the record, called it again! 2 for 3 isn't too bad on predictions)
Back on topic, I am seriously impressed by this controller design. Valve had lost me a little with the non-announcement on Wednesday. But I'm excited again after this reveal. This is what they needed, a new kind of controller designed with PC gaming in mind. A handheld device that could capably serve as a mouse analog. Two high-resolution circular touchpads instead of analog sticks? Brilliant! Both pads are capable of serving as either a mouse-analog or a joystick analog.
This is a genuine attempt at a new approach to a controller interface. I'm excited to hear impressions from the beta test.
Why can't they? Controllers evolved to be like the Xbox/PS controllers, and they work. There's no sense in reinventing the wheel, just for the sake of reinventing. If it changes, to offer something new/innovative, then I'm all in.
Personally, I have always HATED analogue sticks, so this could be...refreshing. Wonder what we're looking at so far as cost, though.
Pretty much this ;p Maybe they will show how it should be done with touchpads. Pretty exciting to watch Valve create new stuff.
Circular touchpads that are also clickable. Easy as pie to switch those things into circular d-pad analogs. You click the pad to actually register motion, and the area on the pad you are touching when you click it determines the direction. Extremely easy to execute circular fighting-game motions with an approach like this.
I'm not overly convinced that it's going to be good enough to convey gameplay for almost any kind of action game (mouse reliant FPS, button-action platformer, hot-key reliant RTS) as well as contemporary input devices already do.
Though I guess it makes sense for Valve to release something like this because if people don't like this, there are plenty of alternatives people can use.
If it works THAT well, which it sounds like it does, then it could easily put Valve's controller a step ahead of the consoles'... but it would have to work REALLY well.
If you've ever played a driving sim in an arcade, Wipeout comes to mind, and felt the wheel push back when you hit another car or the side of the track, that's another form of haptics.
I'm picking one of these up when they're released.
Like I mentioned above - it is literally a speaker attached to a trackpad (they basically say so in the description). I'm not holding out for something amazing.
Playing driving/racing games without having to buy a wheel would be super cool.
Now we just have to wait until people start to model with them
Read again, it's literally linear actuators underneath trackpads - "As a parlour trick they can even play audio waveforms and function as speakers."
A good example of playing audio through things that aren't speakers
[ame="
If you want to go that way then it's literally a microphone as well. Trackpads with microphones under them, yaaaaaaaawn.
Well, yes and no. It can function like one in theory though, if you really want to try it - just don't expect a great deal of quality (unless you want to capture particularly low-frequency sound)