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Lazy Nezumi Pro - mouse and pen smoothing in PhotoShop and other apps!

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  • kamih
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    kamih polycounter lvl 11
    New overlay settings window.
    Am I forgetting anything? Let me know!

    BuJtJZ7IIAAqnqH.png
  • kamih
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    kamih polycounter lvl 11
    The latest build is available here:
    http://lazynezumi.com/downloads/LazyNezumiPro_14_8_6_2308_Setup.exe

    I've updated the new perspective mode so you can now change the vertical tilt. Since this mode can do 1, 2, or 3 point perspective, I'm thinking of removing the older modes. What do you guys think?

    I've also added 3d measure points, as shown in this GIF (you can toggle these and change their settings in the Overlay Settings).

    Lots of other changes, check the changelog for details.

    DearestJauntyBlackfly.gif
  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter
    Hey there Kamih - I just noticed that LNP is able to detect which tool is currently being used in PS, as shown by the status line at the bottom. I also notice that there is an override system going on - for instance, it says "Tool : eraser tool (bypassed)" when using the eraser.

    Is there a way to somehow tie this tool detection to the mega crosshair toggle and the app cursor cycling ?

    My scenario is as follows : I like to use the Mega Crosshair, without any app cursor, for fine mark making tools (like a small pencil brush) ; however when working on such lineart sketches, I like my eraser brush to be a wide smooth brush with a regular circle brush preview, possibly without the Crosshair. Is there a way to somehow tie such display preferences to specific tools ? Like this :

    lnp_feedback_2014_08_19_003_zps6a587df2.png~original

    I suppose that what I am suggesting here is the ability to tie the display of the app cursor and the Mega Cursor to specific Photoshop tools, as opposed to (or in addition of) these options being global settings. This might be complicated to implement and confusing for the user tho...

    On a related note, I feel like all these settings and conditions are becoming little bit convoluted when it comes to switching options on and off (and of course, the above question/feature request can only make things worse in that regard :D) But still, in its current state, the "app cursor(ctrl-F6)" menu entry is a bit confusing since ctrl-F6 effectively cycles between the different cursor types, but the Mega Crosshair, which sits inside that same menu, is not affected by the ctrl-F6 shortcut. (I am actually not saying that it should be triggered by that shortcut ; just pointing out that at the moment it kind of feels like it is.)

    Also, a very small observation. At the moment, the app cursor cycling overlay messages are as follows, and in the following order :

    "LNP - App cursor: ON"
    "LNP - App cursor: OFF while drawing"
    "LNP - App cursor: OFF"

    I would suggest a re-ordering, and also a simplification of the messages. What I mean by that is that even tho I know exactly what the 3 settings are effectively doing, I keep getting thrown off by the cycling order and by "OFF" being in caps for "off while drawing" setting. Therefore I would suggest something like the following :

    "cursor ON"
    "cursor OFF"
    "cursor disabled when drawing"

    I also think it would be nice if the message overlay was not a box, but just an unobtrusive piece of text, maybe with a 1 pixel outline, like so :

    lnp_feedback_2014_08_19_001_zps42be255f.png~original

    And it would be nice if there was an keyboard shortcut for the Mega Crosshair itself.

    Also, the use of the [...] graphic is sometimes a bit confusing. I think that when it comes to expanding a rollout (like the details of the "position smoothing" category of settings, or the switch between regular and mini mode), a little rotating triangle or a +/- button would be more appropriate.

    I also think that the File/Settings/Presets/Help menus should always be present, regardless of the display mode being used.

    And lastly, I am personally not a huge fan of the "mini mode" being responsive to a mere mouseover. I know that this kind of UX is sometimes popular, so maybe that's just a personal thing. But I think I would personally just prefer for LNP to simply cycle between two modes - regular and mini.

    Now of course this is all very much a matter of personal preferences ; feature-wises, everything really is fantastic. I just feel like some elements of the UX/UI could benefit from a little bit of streamlining.

    I hope this helps !
  • kamih
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    kamih polycounter lvl 11
    Hey Pior,

    Thanks for the feedback!
    Like you say, many of these things are personal preferences. And I often get comments about changing things back when I change them for others, so it's a hard balancing act.
    I am also not happy with the mini-mode. I think I might get rid of it and add some sort of dynamic pie menu instead.
    And regarding the mega cross-hair, you can change its shortcuts in the Settings->Edit Shortcuts menu (if you don't see it there, update). Maybe I will add a "disable mega with preset" for it, like there is for the custom cursor.
    tldr: Designing UI/UX is hard :(
  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter
    Ha, I feel stupid for never noticing the shortcut menu before ! I always assumed that these were hard-coded. Dumb me !

    With that in mind, I think that a simple feature request on my end would be the ability to switch between app cursor ON and OFF, without cycling through "off while drawing" in the middle. It wouldn't have to be yet another option in the menu - just something being found in the shortcut definition tab. With cursor ON/OFF bound to ctrl-F6 and Mega Crosshair bound to ctrl-F5, I would be pretty much set :)

    (but of course I would still be very curious about tool-sensitive app cursor and mega cursor conditions!)
  • kamih
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    kamih polycounter lvl 11
    There are shortcuts for App Cursor On and App Cursor Off. Do you mean you want the Cycle shortcut to only cycle between on and off (and not off while drawing)?
  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter
    Yeah, pretty much :) but since it could be confusing for users who got used to the cycling going between three modes, I think this might be best as a new option altogether - even if only accessible from the keyboard shortcut tab. I hope this makes sense :)
  • kamih
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    kamih polycounter lvl 11
    No, I think you are right.
    People who use the "off while drawing", they usually just set that and then forget about it. I don't think it would annoy anyone if I removed cycle and added App Cursor On/Off instead. I'm all for customization, but that shortcut setting window is getting out of hand...
    I also like your idea of +/- instead of "...". Gonna try that right now and see how I like it.
  • kamih
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    kamih polycounter lvl 11
    Ok I've updated the installer with a couple changes you requested (+/- and app cursor toggle between On/Off only).
    I'll have to think a bit more about the other stuff.
  • kamih
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    kamih polycounter lvl 11
    Photoshop users! Please try this new LNP version and let me know if you still get line glitches!
    I've fixed many problems and things feel a LOT more stable for me now when I draw fast little lines.
    http://lazynezumi.com/downloads/LazyNezumiPro_14_8_29_2322_Setup.exe
  • kamih
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    kamih polycounter lvl 11
    LNP version 14.08.30 adds Curved Radial Lines!

    http://lazynezumi.com/news

    I've also fixed some bugs that would cause missing or glitchy lines in Photoshop and Flash.

    lnpCurvedRadialLinesS.png
  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter
    Hello - I think I am running into an issue with the most recent version, but the problem might also be coming from my recent OS re-install.

    Basically, I just re-installed LNP, and while I am getting the usual "first time useage" warnings for things like app cursor visibility, these warnings keep appearing despite the fact that I clicked "ok" to acknowledge them - which sounds a lot like some kind of permission issue with file writing. Do you have any idea on how to fix that ?

    (edit : problem solved itself after a system reboot :))
  • kamih
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    kamih polycounter lvl 11
    Hey guys,
    just a quick heads up to let you know that this week is LNP's first anniversary! :)
    To celebrate, all licenses are 30% off!
  • shotgun
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    shotgun polycounter lvl 19
    (Posting for a colleague)

    Hi
    I'm contacting you because of a problem I'm encountering constantly during the use of Nezumi. I'm using it with photoshop CC and I'm really loving it, but as I work, at certain points, it just stops smoothing the lines so I get the default Photoshop lines. Nezumi is still on during this time, but the lines are only smoothed out again if I open and press the program's window. It's as if the Nezumi "forgets" to work after certain points, while still running in the background (being lazy). I have yet to identify at which points this happens, to me it just seems to occur every time I haven't been using the brush tool for a while (maybe because then it's most noticeable).
    I was wondering if you have any idea about what could cause the program. I'm using the program's defaults. Thank you.
    Tomer Kalkuda
  • kamih
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    kamih polycounter lvl 11
    Shotgun, have him email me at support@lazynezumi.com.
    I need to know which version of LNP he's using, which PS version, and which tablet.
  • kamih
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    kamih polycounter lvl 11
    Photoshop CC 2014 users in Win8.1, there's a new version of LNP that should work without the Wintab workaround!
    If you try it, please report how it works for you!
  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter
    Hello again Kamih - here is a new suggestion. It's a little bit out there, but you might find it interesting : what about having a way to instruct LNP to record a certain number of plot points, to then have the program cleanly draw the stroke going through these landmarks after the fact ?

    Like so :

    lnp_feedback_2014_10_31_zps30d72ebf.jpg~original

    Note that these are not just dots but actual directional strokes, which I think would provide a lot of interesting data to pull from (these strokes would provide a rough approximation of the tangents that the final clean line should follow, and would also serve as pressure readings for line weight interpolation).

    And of course, while on the example above these plot points are shown as actually drawn with a brush on the canvas and then erased/undone, I could imagine that these initial recordings could very well be handled and shown through the LNP overlay itself as a 1pix line, which would be much more elegant. In this case the process would be :

    hit a shortcut to enable "record" mode > draw a bunch of tangents > hit enter > LNP draws the resulting stroke.

    As a matter of fact, this makes me think that a whole image could be cleaned up that way without having to exit this special mode. I am bringing this up because even though LNP does a fantastic job at implementing an efficient lazybrush helper, sometimes having to drag a brush can be a bit unpredictable, especially when accuracy is required for strokes with either a lot of swirling, or a lot of stretched tension (like in the example above). I feel like a "plot/record/replay" mode could provide an interesting alternative - if it is even possible to implement to begin with, of course !
  • kamih
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    kamih polycounter lvl 11
    Hi Pior! :)

    Hmm, I think this could be cool, but it might be super complicated.. and you might not be happy with the line and end up erasing it and re-setting the points and it would take longer than just drawing the line a couple times by hand..
    I think if you're wanting this type of thing, you'd be better off using a vector line program.
  • kamih
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    kamih polycounter lvl 11
    What I do plan on trying though, is some sort of bezier tool, kinda like the pen tool, except that it would let you use pressure/brushes.
  • kamih
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    kamih polycounter lvl 11
    Maybe you will find the new Radial Lines constraint preset useful for this kind of thing.
    In the update I'm working on now, you can quickly change the parameters of most constraints by holding alt/shift/space and moving your pen. :)

    HorribleExhaustedBrahmanbull.gif
  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter
    Oh, very cool ! Yeah, in it's current state this tool is a bit strange to use but I can see how it would totally work with a few added realtime controls for curve tension and origin placement. Basically, some kind of virtual curve drawing aid :

    https://www.google.com/search?q=pistolet+perroquet&safe=off&es_sm=119&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=X4FYVMuYLonXavisgugF&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1164&bih=577
  • [Deleted User]
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    [Deleted User] insane polycounter
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter
    Yeah, I've used it in the past too but I have to say I personally tend to be quickly frustrated when a workflow involves switching tools many times like that. This is also why I tend to avoid the undo dance that I see a lot of artists do - that is to say, drawing and stroke, undoing it and drawing it again until it somehow works. It just feels like waste of precious time somehow ?

    Maybe I am just being a bit too nitpicky !
  • kamih
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    kamih polycounter lvl 11
    New update will be ready soon, excited to see what you guys think!
    I need your advice though, how should I show users that these hard-coded keyboard shortcuts are available for certain things?
    Right now I'm adding the info in the script param tooltips, but not everyone might see them.
    I'm thinking I could add an overlay message when you switch presets (that you could disable in the settings). Any suggestions?
  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter
    Yeah, I think that showing a clear message explaining the feature is always beneficial ; disabling it later will take only a minute for advanced users, but it can save hours of confusion for new users.
  • kamih
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    kamih polycounter lvl 11
    Here's the release candidate for the new LNP update!
    http://lazynezumi.com/downloads/LazyNezumiPro_14_11_7_320_Setup.exe

    Please give it a try and let me know what you think!
    If I don't find any major problems or bugs, I'll push this out to all users.
  • kamih
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    kamih polycounter lvl 11
    LNP Update 14.11.07 is ready for mass consumption! :)

    Lots of goodies in this one: http://lazynezumi.com/news

    The ellipse preset is now (IMHO) a lot more useful!

    CelebratedMinorHumpbackwhale.gif
  • Saf
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    Saf polycounter lvl 11
    new features just awesome!
    any news about porting to Mac?
  • kamih
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    kamih polycounter lvl 11
    Hey friends!
    Just a heads up, if you're thinking of buying a LNP license, wait until Friday! ;)
    And if you really need one now and are short on cash, send me a PM.
  • blankslatejoe
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    blankslatejoe polycounter lvl 18
    this is pretty fantastic Kamih...and yes, I am thinking about a license! :-)

    ...it took about 30 seconds of using the new version for me to see the tools potential!
  • SnowInChina
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    SnowInChina interpolator
    bought it 2 or 3 days ago
    totally worth the money
  • kamih
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    kamih polycounter lvl 11
    LNP is 30% off this weekend! :)
    http://lazynezumi.com
  • Fogbrain
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    Fogbrain polycounter lvl 5
    kamih wrote: »
    LNP is 30% off this weekend! :)
    http://lazynezumi.com

    Just bought it yesterday. :/

    But nonetheless, I think this plugin is fantastic.
  • Chimp
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    Chimp interpolator
    I really should update more often! Rushing off to do it now, I love Nezumi, use it every single day.
  • Lamont
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    Lamont polycounter lvl 15
    How do you get it to work with Windows Ink and NOT have that stupid circle pop up? That stupid delay is killing me. Running on Windows 8.

    Also, the constraints are freakin awesome!!
  • kamih
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    kamih polycounter lvl 11
    You mean that little ripple thing Windows does when u click? I have no idea... I thought I had removed it once with a registry key, but it came back recently.. It is pretty annoying.
  • Lamont
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    Lamont polycounter lvl 15
    Yeah, that stupid ripple thing :(. I will look for the registry trick.
  • bounchfx
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    bounchfx mod
    really impressive stuff ... bought ! :D
  • kamih
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    kamih polycounter lvl 11
    Thank you for supporting my work guys!
    Lazy Nezumi wouldn't exist without you! :)
  • Gmanx
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    Gmanx polycounter lvl 19
    Played with the demo a few times and finally bought the license today. It's brilliant, thanks Guillaume!
  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter
    Damn, these ellipses look fine !! Can't wait to try them out :)

    Here are two new suggestions that came to me while painting today. Both might actually be achievable by cleverly tweaking some of the existing settings, but I am not quite sure how hence I thought I'd ask.

    - Full Pressure override (=no pressure sensitivity)
    Is there a way to tell LNP to crank pressure sensitivity all the way up, basically simulating full pressure reading ? I find myself reaching for the Transfer on/off switch from the Photoshop brush palette quite often when painting, because there are times when 100% opacity is required while still maintaining the shape and radius of the current brush - for instance, when painting selection masks or filling in flat areas of color. Using a specific brush for such a task is of course always possible, but it goes without saying that doing so wouldn't maintain the size and various properties of the previously active brush. Maybe LNP can help with that ?

    (I understand that it wouldn't be quite possible to control Transfer and Brush Size pressure readings separately ; but even a global pressure override would be very useful.)

    - Cursor offset
    I often wish for an option letting me offset the cursor away from the tip of my stylus by a significant distance (something like 10 cm or more). This is of course mostly for Cintiq and Tablet PC use : it would be especially useful for design corrections without the hand getting in the way.

    I usually end up relying on Display Toggle for such scenarios, placing the document on a secondary screen and controlling the cursor remotely. Still, being able to do so straight from the main screen surface would be great !

    Furthermore such a feature could also act as a calibration refinement tool since the calibration performed from the Wacom driver panel doesn't always result in a perfect cursor alignment.

    I hope you will find this interesting !
  • kamih
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    kamih polycounter lvl 11
    1. You can create a LNP preset that has Minimum Value set to 1.0 in Pressure Curve.

    2. I have fixed 3125 pen offset bugs, and you want me to add one? HAHAH :D
    But I understand that this could be useful. Right now it's not possible to do this cleanly because I can't change the starting position of a stroke, so you would get an ugly connection line from the click point to the offset position.
  • LRoy
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    LRoy polycounter lvl 10
    Man it's insane how many features you keep adding
  • kamih
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    kamih polycounter lvl 11
    Hey friends!
    Just a heads up if you're thinking of getting LNP:
    The Holiday Sale will start on December 22! :)
  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter
    Hi there Kamih - I have a few more remarks, which is only natural when using LNP every day :). These might be a bit far-fetched again, but I thought I would mention them anyways just for the sake of discussion.

    - Pen/mouse differentiation in "no cursor" mode
    As mentioned earlier, my main use for LNP is the "no cursor" mode, which really is a game changer for on-screen devices like Cintiqs and Tablet PCs. It makes them feel so much more responsive and natural to use ! However for certain tasks I still rely on the mouse, which feels more precise for menu operations and also for UI interaction near the edges of screen displays as this is where pointer calibration usually breaks down on many devices.

    In that context I naturally turn off the "no cursor" mode whenever I need to reach for the mouse. Would there be any way to automate this, maybe by detecting which HID device is being used ? I suppose there could be other creative ways to trigger such a toggle too, like hovering over a specific, user-defined area of the screen ; reading a flick gesture ; or even, identifying the qualities of mouse movement vs stylus movement. What do you think ?

    speed-based pressure override
    I really love the look and feel of speed-based pressure simulation, as it tend to simulate natural media very well (and I suspect that drawing programs with more advanced brush engines than Photoshop's rely on it too). However, is there a way to have both speed-based and pressure-based sensitivity, coexisting in one LNP preset ?

    For instance, to simulate a pencil or a charcoal stick I like the set a very low gain for fast speed pressure simulation, as it nicely fades the middle portion of strokes just like natural media would. But sometimes I feel like going just as fast in terms of cursor speed ... while pressing harder in order to get more coverage overall. Is that possible ?


    Thank you again for the fantastic app and updates, and I hope I am not being too annoying with all these questions and suggestions !
  • kamih
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    kamih polycounter lvl 11
    1) I could maybe add a "Pen Only" option for the cursor settings. I get an event when the pen enters the tablet context so it's easy for me to know when you're using it.

    2) I'm not sure I understand what the issue is. The Speed Based Pressure control doesn't remove pressure sensitivity, it applies gain on top of it. So you can still control pressure by pressing harder, it just increases it (or decreases) even more when you go fast (or slow).
  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter
    It's very interesting to hear about the possibility of such a Pen Only option. I'll stay tuned !

    As for the subject of pressure speed scaling : you are absolutely right in the sense that this is not an issue or a bug, and the LNP options work exactly as they should. I guess what I am trying to say is that from a psychological point of view, going fast + pressing hard = "putting a lot of energy into the stroke" ; yet when using speed-based pressure sensitivity (with high speed = low pressure gain, which does a fantastic job at emulating the feel of traditional media in most cases), it can result in a faint stroke as opposed to a bold one.

    LNP-speedpressure_zpsca25c3f7.jpg~original

    But again this is in no way a bug or a LNP shortcoming, and more of a limitation of the Photoshop brush engine ! If Photoshop had the option to negatively modulate both "brush size" and "flow" with high cursor velocity, there would be no need to use a velocity-based pressure override as a band aid for it in the first place :) Just some interesting things to think about really.
  • keelhauler
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    keelhauler polycounter lvl 11
    Hi kamih!

    Haven't used Lazy Nezumi in a while and testing the new presets here. What can I say? Mind blown really! Can't really think of anything to add. Symmetry/mirroring would of course be something awesome. Hoping that will be possible at some point.

    Really amazing stuff this here is!
  • kamih
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    kamih polycounter lvl 11
    Thanks keelhauler, glad you like the new presets! :)
  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter
    Another question : is there a known workaround for the "app cursor - Off" mode when working in Manga Studio ? (using version 5 here). If works fine when hovering over the interface, but the round brush preview remains visible when hovering over the canvas.

    I do remember hearing that MS was being problematic in that regard, but maybe things evolved since then ?
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