It was definitely rude, but at least it was explained.
I don't think these guys are wrong to criticize bad game design, in fact sometimes a rude awakening is necessary. There is a reason Japanese games aren't doing as well as western games, and why they were so good on NES and SNES but aren't any longer.
Phil's comment was rude, but if he followed up with his explanation immediately it would have not been taken so badly. I think he has a tendency to jump to conclusions and spit out nonsense without proper explanation... which Twitter only accentuates.
This industry IS extremely negative. And no, it's not really the devs, but the vocal majority of gamers (including critics) are bloody negative. Check out any game forum. Its 90% negativity trashing games that the devs worked their butt off on.
Something to keep in mind is that only a fraction of a fraction of your customers are on internet forums actively talking about/trashing your game. Seriously, you're looking at the hardcore niche audience. Most gamers don't go online, are generally happy with your game, and just get on with their lives the same way they do after reading a book or watching a movie or whatever. They buy your entertainment, enjoy it, and move along. It's only the hardest of the hardcore who frequent forums.
That should give some perspective when some 15 year old is screaming at the top of his little lungs about whatever variable you changed in the latest patch.
Something to keep in mind is that only a fraction of a fraction of your customers are on internet forums actively talking about/trashing your game. Seriously, you're looking at the hardcore niche audience. Most gamers don't go online, are generally happy with your game, and just get on with their lives the same way they do after reading a book or watching a movie or whatever. They buy your entertainment, enjoy it, and move along. It's only the hardest of the hardcore who frequent forums.
That should give some perspective when some 15 year old is screaming at the top of his little lungs about whatever variable you changed in the latest patch.
Absolutely agree. That's why I said the vocal majority. The ones that are happy don't tend to make a point of telling you that. The ones that are furious will make damn sure you know about it. So when all you hear is the negative, it turns the industry into a very negative place.
Something to keep in mind is that only a fraction of a fraction of your customers are on internet forums actively talking about/trashing your game. Seriously, you're looking at the hardcore niche audience. Most gamers don't go online, are generally happy with your game, and just get on with their lives the same way they do after reading a book or watching a movie or whatever. They buy your entertainment, enjoy it, and move along. It's only the hardest of the hardcore who frequent forums.
That should give some perspective when some 15 year old is screaming at the top of his little lungs about whatever variable you changed in the latest patch.
There is that but in the same regard there is a culture of continuous cynicism and negativity, look at one of the most popular game critics today, Zero punctuation, who does some very amusing videos which I personally love but is overwhelmingly negative on some fantastic games many people are bound to of enjoyed.
But being a overwhelmingly negative dick sells the story you just have to realize you are in the business of selling a product, they are in the business of selling a story about your product, so in a sense they feed off you like a leach, but you can't stop making a product and just give into overwhelmingly negative bullshit, its like a professional athlete quitting because some Beer gut fan who couldn't remotely come close to doing what he does told him he sucked over twitter, its not really that different at all.
I think he may have said it a little too harshly, but I don't think hes really said anything a lot of people in this industry already think. This industry IS extremely negative. And no, it's not really the devs, but the vocal majority of
I don't see how that will happen, it seems like the largest gaming communities form out of the cesspits of the internet like 4chan and the like. Being horrible assholes is the bond that brings them together.
for those who can't/don't want to, the premise is this:
Derren Brown hosts a fake gameshow, the audience don't know it's fake, and are given two choices about a subject. he can either receive a treat (like being told he's the 5000th customer and receive a prize) or a trick (like being told to pay for his drinks twice due to a change in bartenders).
[spoilers]
Derren had already pre-recorded the video the audience watch, he pre-recorded it with the idea that the audience would always choose a trick, which was correct. due to being anonymous and having no consequence to their choice other than to be entertained, the majority voted for a trick every time. until the end when the subject was hit by a car. again it was all staged, but the audience didn't know that, and their reaction is pretty shocking[/spoiler]
I love that image but I really hesitate to name anonymity the problem because people act like dipshits even without it, like Justin said that's just what some people have going for their personality, they revel in it and seek out likeminded people who egg them on to do it.
Anonimity is also one of the only tools people have to protect themselves from this bullshit because if Fish wanted he could make an otherwise anonymous twitter account whenever he felt like it and do all of his customer facing relations from the nameless "Polytron" account.
We actually had a big thread on this a couple years ago when Blizzard introduced RealID because they wanted to get rid of trolls on their forums.
Fish did NOT Make millions. Maaaaaybe made in the vicinity of a quarter million for a 6-year perma-crunch.
200,000 sales on XBLA with Microsoft taking most of it, publisher taking most of that cut, his former partner taking a sizable chunk, then the development costs, and the programmer he hired, along with marketing, sound, etc. He did NOT make $Millions. http://ca.ign.com/articles/2013/04/15/fez-xbla-sales-hit-200000
For gods, sakes, he couldn't even afford a $40k patch.
He is walking away from a VERY emotionally, and psychologically abusive job that paid a very mediocre wage. It would not shock me to see him never come back.
OMG, death threats? In Spain that's a criminal offense and you can go to jail or pay a good fine. There are some cases, some parents got shocked when the police called home with a warrant and registered all the computer equipment.
In the internet we are not really anonymous. When we post anything, our ip is recorded, and err... you can't hide yourself so easily.
Do you remember the kid that went to jail (lol gamer)? i wonder where's the law for these people.
"Normal person (all facade)" + "Anonymity" = Person with his real personality (no facade)*
In the internet we are not really anonymous. When we post anything, our ip is recorded, and err... you can't hide yourself so easily.
You can use Tor. Unless you're hiding from your government you can also use a VPN or a proxy chain.
The average person cannot do much with your IP address anyway unless they can tie it to some place you've revealed personal information about yourself.
And that's only if they can actually obtain your IP address, seeing as how most sites don't make it public only administrators and moderators have access to it.
I know all that, but only very experienced users use those things. btw, using certain vpns is not so safe.
Anyone with an ip, dinamic or not, is doomed if someone put a complaint/denouncement to the police. Twitter, Google, forums, blogs, etc. are forced to provide ips when there's a criminal offense. Just see what happened with the joke of that kid...
The spanish police caught several hackers that attacked PSN among others... these are not the average internet users, 2011: Anonymous & LulzSec
There is nothing safe in this life, except our death. And you can't hide forever .
Fish did NOT Make millions. Maaaaaybe made in the vicinity of a quarter million for a 6-year perma-crunch.
200,000 sales on XBLA with Microsoft taking most of it, publisher taking most of that cut, his former partner taking a sizable chunk, then the development costs, and the programmer he hired, along with marketing, sound, etc. He did NOT make $Millions. http://ca.ign.com/articles/2013/04/15/fez-xbla-sales-hit-200000
For gods, sakes, he couldn't even afford a $40k patch.
He is walking away from a VERY emotionally, and psychologically abusive job that paid a very mediocre wage. It would not shock me to see him never come back.
That is a bit overdramatic, I believe Phil Fish did fine, and in indie-terms did fantastic, or in his own words:
"But most importantly," he concluded, "the success of the game is allowing me to take my time to consider my next move and spend years driving myself crazy trying to make something beautiful so you can run around in it.
"Something few of us can afford. Thank you for THAT."
I usually disagree with Sterling but, this is a pretty good video on it and the idea of thick skin.
If anything this entire debacle has raised the amount of respect for you guys still in the industry even more, I have no idea how you deal with it, but good on you for doing so.
for those who can't/don't want to, the premise is this:
Derren Brown hosts a fake gameshow, the audience don't know it's fake, and are given two choices about a subject. he can either receive a treat (like being told he's the 5000th customer and receive a prize) or a trick (like being told to pay for his drinks twice due to a change in bartenders).
[spoilers]
Derren had already pre-recorded the video the audience watch, he pre-recorded it with the idea that the audience would always choose a trick, which was correct. due to being anonymous and having no consequence to their choice other than to be entertained, the majority voted for a trick every time. until the end when the subject was hit by a car. again it was all staged, but the audience didn't know that, and their reaction is pretty shocking[/spoiler]
moral? don't fuck with Derren Brown lol.
Spent my lunch break watching this, and it sums up the internet perfectly. Negativity fuels negativity, and the internet is really one large negative mob. Sad really.
One on one I don't believe most people would act that way to another person. All those people posting horrendous comments to that COD designer, I'll bet 90% of them would turn into gigantic fanboys if ever given the chance to meet him.
Or maybe I'm just an optimist and believe in the individual.
the truth is that 99.9% of the people saying this awful things would fold like lawn chairs if you ever actually met them face to face. They're sad, frustrated people of minimal maturity and less bravery.
That being said - there's the .01% of people that are both capable and unstable enough to do something absolutely crazy for no good reason but you ruined one of their game nights. Has it happened yet? I don't know. Could it? yes. and as a man with a family it's not a chance i'd be comfortable with taking - especially if they've gone so far as to hunt down my loved ones to harass THEM.
still - people seriously have to learn how to ignore trolls and move on with their life.
Spent my lunch break watching this, and it sums up the internet perfectly. Negativity fuels negativity, and the internet is really one large negative mob. Sad really.
One on one I don't believe most people would act that way to another person. All those people posting horrendous comments to that COD designer, I'll bet 90% of them would turn into gigantic fanboys if ever given the chance to meet him.
Or maybe I'm just an optimist and believe in the individual.
Give someone an an olive branch and the Internet Hate Machine will be sure to burn it.
Thank you all for contributing. Unfortunately, due to constant, brutal, spam attacks, this site cannot be continued. Sorry for any inconveniences. Dan Khan
I do not follow him regularly and I have seen some questionable commentary from his side. Abuse is not acceptable from both ends. I also thought his initial comment was harsh. But again the truth is blunt and kind of true. What was the last game made in Japan that I really felt or had an amazing experience while playing it... I remember seeing him in "Indie game Movie" also and he was kind of a douchebag, but honestly if your working 10hr days 7 days a week you tend to lose perspective on life a bit and opinions come out quicker because the other side of your mind is thinking how to code the next half of your game. Honestly this guy sounds interesting he has something to say in the industry and I agree with Cliffyb's response, I think he has a unique perspective of the industry that needs to be told, I agree with Cliff too about canned PR driven responses... I am passionate about games and if other people are too let it come out. Phil Fish is not a celebrity or President why does he need to hold his opinions.
Like Cliffyb I remember my first ever negative backlash criticisms about the levels I released on the UT fourms for free. People would bash and hate on my levels. Some people would love them of course but some other people felt entitled to bash something that I did for free. I quickly learned at a pretty young age how the internet is full of Trolls. I was a kid in highschool-Middleschool making levels of the same like quality as the Epic Games ones at that time for free and people still would bash endlessly I almost stopped at times making more levels. If I would have stopped I would not be where I am now. I grew a large collection of thick skin, but man oh man has it been scared and will keep on getting scared due to this industry general criticism being so demoralizing a times. In all my old user levels I would script a message when you start a level that said this.
"Have fun"
That is all every game developer is truly trying to do... entertain you. If we fail we fail, but do not go after us relentlessly either... that is just not cool.
I think he needs some time to learn how to handle public scrutiny and come back strong.
His response was not diplomatic or even educated. It was harsh and blunt, but honestly that might actually make the Japanese game industry reflect a little. A trend has already started, I see more Japanese companies coming to western developers trying to figure out better workflows for making games. I think the Japanese story arches are not the issues it is the presentation and mechanics that have become archaic. Take a story like FF and put it open world like Skyrim and you have a winner still using traditional JRPG elements. I remember old JRPGs that the only thing stopping me from exploring the world was monsters being too powerful in some sections if I was smart enough and patient I could get by some of them... This seems lost now. Of course I am sure some great Japanese games have been released and I just missed them, but I agree the point he made was right, bluntly though.
Replies
It was definitely rude, but at least it was explained.
I don't think these guys are wrong to criticize bad game design, in fact sometimes a rude awakening is necessary. There is a reason Japanese games aren't doing as well as western games, and why they were so good on NES and SNES but aren't any longer.
Phil's comment was rude, but if he followed up with his explanation immediately it would have not been taken so badly. I think he has a tendency to jump to conclusions and spit out nonsense without proper explanation... which Twitter only accentuates.
That should give some perspective when some 15 year old is screaming at the top of his little lungs about whatever variable you changed in the latest patch.
Absolutely agree. That's why I said the vocal majority. The ones that are happy don't tend to make a point of telling you that. The ones that are furious will make damn sure you know about it. So when all you hear is the negative, it turns the industry into a very negative place.
There is that but in the same regard there is a culture of continuous cynicism and negativity, look at one of the most popular game critics today, Zero punctuation, who does some very amusing videos which I personally love but is overwhelmingly negative on some fantastic games many people are bound to of enjoyed.
But being a overwhelmingly negative dick sells the story you just have to realize you are in the business of selling a product, they are in the business of selling a story about your product, so in a sense they feed off you like a leach, but you can't stop making a product and just give into overwhelmingly negative bullshit, its like a professional athlete quitting because some Beer gut fan who couldn't remotely come close to doing what he does told him he sucked over twitter, its not really that different at all.
Glad you brought this up:
These are the comments from a balancing patch for Call of Duty:
http://gamerfury.tumblr.com/
Holy hell... 0_0
Eh? o_O
worth a watch...
for those who can't/don't want to, the premise is this:
Derren Brown hosts a fake gameshow, the audience don't know it's fake, and are given two choices about a subject. he can either receive a treat (like being told he's the 5000th customer and receive a prize) or a trick (like being told to pay for his drinks twice due to a change in bartenders).
[spoilers]
Derren had already pre-recorded the video the audience watch, he pre-recorded it with the idea that the audience would always choose a trick, which was correct. due to being anonymous and having no consequence to their choice other than to be entertained, the majority voted for a trick every time. until the end when the subject was hit by a car. again it was all staged, but the audience didn't know that, and their reaction is pretty shocking[/spoiler]
moral? don't fuck with Derren Brown lol.
Anonimity is also one of the only tools people have to protect themselves from this bullshit because if Fish wanted he could make an otherwise anonymous twitter account whenever he felt like it and do all of his customer facing relations from the nameless "Polytron" account.
We actually had a big thread on this a couple years ago when Blizzard introduced RealID because they wanted to get rid of trolls on their forums.
so what did he do?
OMG, death threats? In Spain that's a criminal offense and you can go to jail or pay a good fine. There are some cases, some parents got shocked when the police called home with a warrant and registered all the computer equipment.
In the internet we are not really anonymous. When we post anything, our ip is recorded, and err... you can't hide yourself so easily.
Do you remember the kid that went to jail (lol gamer)? i wonder where's the law for these people.
"Normal person (all facade)" + "Anonymity" = Person with his real personality (no facade)*
* Warning: wolf between sheeps!
The average person cannot do much with your IP address anyway unless they can tie it to some place you've revealed personal information about yourself.
And that's only if they can actually obtain your IP address, seeing as how most sites don't make it public only administrators and moderators have access to it.
Anyone with an ip, dinamic or not, is doomed if someone put a complaint/denouncement to the police. Twitter, Google, forums, blogs, etc. are forced to provide ips when there's a criminal offense. Just see what happened with the joke of that kid...
The spanish police caught several hackers that attacked PSN among others... these are not the average internet users, 2011: Anonymous & LulzSec
There is nothing safe in this life, except our death. And you can't hide forever
That is a bit overdramatic, I believe Phil Fish did fine, and in indie-terms did fantastic, or in his own words:
millions might be a hyperbole though.
If anything this entire debacle has raised the amount of respect for you guys still in the industry even more, I have no idea how you deal with it, but good on you for doing so.
People think they know you when all they have are soundbytes
Spent my lunch break watching this, and it sums up the internet perfectly. Negativity fuels negativity, and the internet is really one large negative mob. Sad really.
One on one I don't believe most people would act that way to another person. All those people posting horrendous comments to that COD designer, I'll bet 90% of them would turn into gigantic fanboys if ever given the chance to meet him.
Or maybe I'm just an optimist and believe in the individual.
That being said - there's the .01% of people that are both capable and unstable enough to do something absolutely crazy for no good reason but you ruined one of their game nights. Has it happened yet? I don't know. Could it? yes. and as a man with a family it's not a chance i'd be comfortable with taking - especially if they've gone so far as to hunt down my loved ones to harass THEM.
still - people seriously have to learn how to ignore trolls and move on with their life.
Because none of us are as cruel as all of us.
http://www.gametrailers.com/side-mission/7458/the-indie-dev-who-claimed-modern-japanese-games-just-suck-explains-himself
I do not follow him regularly and I have seen some questionable commentary from his side. Abuse is not acceptable from both ends. I also thought his initial comment was harsh. But again the truth is blunt and kind of true. What was the last game made in Japan that I really felt or had an amazing experience while playing it... I remember seeing him in "Indie game Movie" also and he was kind of a douchebag, but honestly if your working 10hr days 7 days a week you tend to lose perspective on life a bit and opinions come out quicker because the other side of your mind is thinking how to code the next half of your game. Honestly this guy sounds interesting he has something to say in the industry and I agree with Cliffyb's response, I think he has a unique perspective of the industry that needs to be told, I agree with Cliff too about canned PR driven responses... I am passionate about games and if other people are too let it come out. Phil Fish is not a celebrity or President why does he need to hold his opinions.
Like Cliffyb I remember my first ever negative backlash criticisms about the levels I released on the UT fourms for free. People would bash and hate on my levels. Some people would love them of course but some other people felt entitled to bash something that I did for free. I quickly learned at a pretty young age how the internet is full of Trolls. I was a kid in highschool-Middleschool making levels of the same like quality as the Epic Games ones at that time for free and people still would bash endlessly I almost stopped at times making more levels. If I would have stopped I would not be where I am now. I grew a large collection of thick skin, but man oh man has it been scared and will keep on getting scared due to this industry general criticism being so demoralizing a times. In all my old user levels I would script a message when you start a level that said this.
"Have fun"
That is all every game developer is truly trying to do... entertain you. If we fail we fail, but do not go after us relentlessly either... that is just not cool.
I think he needs some time to learn how to handle public scrutiny and come back strong.
His response was not diplomatic or even educated. It was harsh and blunt, but honestly that might actually make the Japanese game industry reflect a little. A trend has already started, I see more Japanese companies coming to western developers trying to figure out better workflows for making games. I think the Japanese story arches are not the issues it is the presentation and mechanics that have become archaic. Take a story like FF and put it open world like Skyrim and you have a winner still using traditional JRPG elements. I remember old JRPGs that the only thing stopping me from exploring the world was monsters being too powerful in some sections if I was smart enough and patient I could get by some of them... This seems lost now. Of course I am sure some great Japanese games have been released and I just missed them, but I agree the point he made was right, bluntly though.