Ben, I don't believe I've seen your work before but you have a great portfolio. The cage and bake on your AK is completely amazing.
You kinda killed me with that comment though, haha. My characters have been taking me much longer, I'd estimate 6 weeks. I suppose I need to work on speed a bit.
It's been great reading this thread lots of nice responses.
Thanks all of you so much for all this great information. I have been having a hard time figuring out a pricing scheme, never mind figuring out a way to justify the rate I should be charging. This gives me some peace of mind, knowing that I can indeed justify charging quite a lot more than what I had originally calculated.
Charging by polycount makes no sense to me imo. Someone could make something with 10x as many polygons as needed with poor optimization quicker than someone who makes the topology efficiently while containing more detail. I personally consider style, complexity of the concept, and a comparison to another models level of detail to be far better in estimating time and cost, as well as whether or not it's diffuse/spec/emissive/gloss/whatever or any other fancy bits that might be needed for animations or things like having a fire particle effect emit from the bone of a torch that's constrained to the hand. Stuff like will the hampster blink, open its mouth, die in a certain way, be created to have multiple skins over the same model for variety, handpainted, photosourced etc. I feel are largely more important than is it 1000 or 10,000 triangles.
One other thing I always keep in mind is it is far faster and easier to estimate and create something that has already been built, than to make something for the first time. IE one artist can look at another's model and easily tell the client they could of made that in half the time, but that's because the other artist had the more difficult challenge of figuring how to translate everything into the textures and model.
We all can model a crate with the same amount of triangles, but the process and texturing for the final model can be vastly different in the style, quality, materials, and time it took to make it.
When the client asks me to make a model or effect where I've already done something similar in a previous project, they're blown away by how fast I'm able to make it. Then they get confused when they ask for a brand new effect I haven't figured out before and I tell them it's probably going to take a full day of research versus an hour of making it.
This thread is depressive bordering offensive.. Taxes, licenses etc costs money. Anything below 300usd a day is just not realistic in a western country. And thats really in the lower price range.
If we say 130£ for a weeks work as the thread start suggest. That would mean maybe 75 after taxes etc. Thats 1.87£ an hours, and you can just forget about any licenses at all, and hopefully you can work on your dads old computer from 2005. At this point i think a high-end job with four times the pay flipping burgers is much better alternative.
300 a day is a lot. Assuming 8 hours per day that is 37,50 per hour.
A high end artist with a name can ask for that. 20-25 per hour is much more realistic.
Anyway isn't this thread a few years old?
Are the numbers on the first few pages still valid?
Not neccessarily. Rates of 30-60$/h are pretty common for freelancers. You can't really compare it to a studio salary, where you might get 10-20$/h, but the studio pays for all the software, hardware, office rent, electricity etc.
300 a day is a lot. Assuming 8 hours per day that is 37,50 per hour.
A high end artist with a name can ask for that. 20-25 per hour is much more realistic.
Anyway isn't this thread a few years old?
Are the numbers on the first few pages still valid?
No idea where you got your info from but it is plain wrong. We pay our artists more. Any western artist needs to make a certain amount of money to stay afloat.
I make more than $37.50 an hour per hour worked on average for assets I sell on the Unity asset store.
$37.50 isn't cheap but it isn't unreasonable.
If you're talking senior artist in AAA, on-site full time, that is absolutely reasonable. In fact, it's on the low end depending on the studio/projects.
300 a day is a lot. Assuming 8 hours per day that is 37,50 per hour.
A high end artist with a name can ask for that. 20-25 per hour is much more realistic.
Anyway isn't this thread a few years old?
Are the numbers on the first few pages still valid?
$20-$25 is basically slave labor for a high end freelance artist. You do realize a 3d artist is supplying their own software, computers, power, electricity, health insurance, no vacation days, internet bills, $200+ a month subscriptions for legal software etc. versus someone working at a studio where all of that is taken care of. Not to mention that $20 quickly drops to nothing when you factor in 1/4 to a half of the pay will end up going straight into government taxes.
$20-$25 an hour is for a junior freelancer 1-3 years who produces medium quality work, no flipping way is that realistic for a high-end freelancer that probably has a family and mortgage to pay for. (And that's state side in New England, god knows how much you'd need to live in California or Seattle.
Of course, that could be widely different if you lived in a country where the cost of living is a lot cheaper, but as an example a min wage job in Connecticut makes 9.15 USD an hour flipping burgers, which is a job easily obtained without having to spend years of time and money improving one's skills.
Where as if you calculate your hourly rate if you're a salary employee you indeed might be making $20-30 an hour, but that's a lot more money than the equivalent freelancer due to things like company health insurance, stability, raises, hardware and software, and paid sick/vacation days.
This is one of those threads that doesn't die. LOL -
I don't quite grasp the recent increase I have seen lately of people being "offended" at other people's price quotes. If someone wants to get paid 10 dollars an hour and someone else wants to hire someone at 10 dollars an hour, chances are they'll get 10 dollar an hour level work.
It is interesting to see what people charge or think they should be charged, but at the end of the day, good work costs good money. What "good" requires is relative to the person. If you're happy at $25/hr, I see no reason to yell at you to charge more. If you can find work at 100/hr, then by god good for you
Our rates, just for the record, vary based on the size of the project, how interested we are in the client, and how many other people are bidding for our time.
Wow, no wonder our industry is in such bad shape. Guys! Value yourselves as artists and stop thinking that just anyone can do this job. Making games is expensive. Realize that you are being asked to create something from nothing. Characters that look and feel real. Or environments that draw people in. It's not an easy task. So man/woman up and charge more because what we do is actually worth quite a bit.
For an average AAA pa4/Xbox one character we are looking at 40 days for a character build. (Including textures/blend shapes and getting it in engine. ) assuming realism is the target anyway. 300 a day is actually what students day 1 after graduating out of gnomon can get here in California if they are good. 300 a day is actually pretty low. (For California)
@ironbelly. The problem is that it's bad for the industry when artists get taken advantage of. I'm watching the vfx and commercial industry implode on itself as everyone tries to undercut each other's bids in what can only be described as a race to the bottom. It's just not sustainable.
I can understand why people are opposed to others charging low prices for their work, BUT, keep in mind the US even if its large market is not center of the universe, I can cover my expenses even if I charge 10$ per hour with all taxes in the mix. There are things like licences but I can probably charge accordingly based on duration of the project/contract.
You people are saying prices like $25 and $37.5 per hour, for a sane freelance artist; but this is the artist who works for someone like a triple-A client not your average team or worse. You are wanting something like $5000 per month, and I think that covers all your software plus leftover many times over actually, given that your most expensive piece of software is Max or Maya.
Maybe you should point out how the prices are supposed to be for our work based on east/west side of US, and than places like UK, France, and Germany for the rest of us. Also you guys don't try to explain how exactly someone like me; who has maybe one 4-month contract under his belt, should charge for his work. Is the price of the artist determined by their work exp. or by the quality of their work?
The problem happens when artists provide all 3 to clients. I've seen it all too often an artist will do a great job on a tight deadline and get paid dirt cheap for it. That is not okay! But we fall into that trap easier than others I think because as artists we want to push ourselves and create amazing art or we're tricked into thinking "I can put this in my portfolio!" to generate more work later.
Are you talking gross or net? Because by the time you remove taxes and expenses, that's going to look more like $2000... Then remove mortgage and healthcare .. now it's ... ugh.
The problem happens when artists provide all 3 to clients. I've seen it all too often an artist will do a great job on a tight deadline and get paid dirt cheap for it. That is not okay! But we fall into that trap easier than others I think because as artists we want to push ourselves and create amazing art or we're tricked into thinking "I can put this in my portfolio!" to generate more work later.
I complete agree, but than I don't think there are clients that expect to get triple-A work for cheap unless either, they think you are naive, or they may are just pure evil.
Are you talking gross or net? Because by the time you remove taxes and expenses, that's going to look more like $2000... Then remove mortgage and healthcare .. now it's ... ugh.
What I meant was gross income, I do understand there are taxes and living expenses but this things differ across the globe quite a bit. So I can understand why you people need four digit pay, no problem there, but this is not supposed to be standard pay across freelance field.
I complete agree, but than I don't think there are clients that expect to get triple-A work for cheap unless either, they think you are naive, or they may are just pure evil.
What I meant was gross income, I do understand there are taxes and living expenses but this things differ across the globe quite a bit. So I can understand why you people need four digit pay, no problem there, but this is not supposed to be standard pay across freelance field.
You would be surprised how many times clients or even the guys running the studio don't understand how much they are really asking for. Most of them probably aren't evil but rather genuinely have no idea how difficult the task is that they are asking to be complete by the next morning. This is kind of a huge problem with directors and ad agencies. But I've also run into it while making games.
do the (rough) math yourself. check how many people work on a pixar movie, check how long a movie is, divide that time by 3, now you know roughly how many weeks they worked on it.
multipy by people working on it, and any average salary you can come up with
Replies
You kinda killed me with that comment though, haha. My characters have been taking me much longer, I'd estimate 6 weeks. I suppose I need to work on speed a bit.
It's been great reading this thread lots of nice responses.
One other thing I always keep in mind is it is far faster and easier to estimate and create something that has already been built, than to make something for the first time. IE one artist can look at another's model and easily tell the client they could of made that in half the time, but that's because the other artist had the more difficult challenge of figuring how to translate everything into the textures and model.
We all can model a crate with the same amount of triangles, but the process and texturing for the final model can be vastly different in the style, quality, materials, and time it took to make it.
When the client asks me to make a model or effect where I've already done something similar in a previous project, they're blown away by how fast I'm able to make it. Then they get confused when they ask for a brand new effect I haven't figured out before and I tell them it's probably going to take a full day of research versus an hour of making it.
If we say 130£ for a weeks work as the thread start suggest. That would mean maybe 75 after taxes etc. Thats 1.87£ an hours, and you can just forget about any licenses at all, and hopefully you can work on your dads old computer from 2005. At this point i think a high-end job with four times the pay flipping burgers is much better alternative.
A high end artist with a name can ask for that. 20-25 per hour is much more realistic.
Anyway isn't this thread a few years old?
Are the numbers on the first few pages still valid?
No idea where you got your info from but it is plain wrong. We pay our artists more. Any western artist needs to make a certain amount of money to stay afloat.
If I want 20usd an hour, I need to earn at least 40 an hour, and I still wouldnt be able to afford licences, an office, euqipment etc. Shit adds up!
I make more than $37.50 an hour per hour worked on average for assets I sell on the Unity asset store.
$37.50 isn't cheap but it isn't unreasonable.
If you're talking senior artist in AAA, on-site full time, that is absolutely reasonable. In fact, it's on the low end depending on the studio/projects.
$20-$25 is basically slave labor for a high end freelance artist. You do realize a 3d artist is supplying their own software, computers, power, electricity, health insurance, no vacation days, internet bills, $200+ a month subscriptions for legal software etc. versus someone working at a studio where all of that is taken care of. Not to mention that $20 quickly drops to nothing when you factor in 1/4 to a half of the pay will end up going straight into government taxes.
$20-$25 an hour is for a junior freelancer 1-3 years who produces medium quality work, no flipping way is that realistic for a high-end freelancer that probably has a family and mortgage to pay for. (And that's state side in New England, god knows how much you'd need to live in California or Seattle.
Of course, that could be widely different if you lived in a country where the cost of living is a lot cheaper, but as an example a min wage job in Connecticut makes 9.15 USD an hour flipping burgers, which is a job easily obtained without having to spend years of time and money improving one's skills.
Where as if you calculate your hourly rate if you're a salary employee you indeed might be making $20-30 an hour, but that's a lot more money than the equivalent freelancer due to things like company health insurance, stability, raises, hardware and software, and paid sick/vacation days.
I don't quite grasp the recent increase I have seen lately of people being "offended" at other people's price quotes. If someone wants to get paid 10 dollars an hour and someone else wants to hire someone at 10 dollars an hour, chances are they'll get 10 dollar an hour level work.
It is interesting to see what people charge or think they should be charged, but at the end of the day, good work costs good money. What "good" requires is relative to the person. If you're happy at $25/hr, I see no reason to yell at you to charge more. If you can find work at 100/hr, then by god good for you
Our rates, just for the record, vary based on the size of the project, how interested we are in the client, and how many other people are bidding for our time.
For an average AAA pa4/Xbox one character we are looking at 40 days for a character build. (Including textures/blend shapes and getting it in engine. ) assuming realism is the target anyway. 300 a day is actually what students day 1 after graduating out of gnomon can get here in California if they are good. 300 a day is actually pretty low. (For California)
@ironbelly. The problem is that it's bad for the industry when artists get taken advantage of. I'm watching the vfx and commercial industry implode on itself as everyone tries to undercut each other's bids in what can only be described as a race to the bottom. It's just not sustainable.
You people are saying prices like $25 and $37.5 per hour, for a sane freelance artist; but this is the artist who works for someone like a triple-A client not your average team or worse. You are wanting something like $5000 per month, and I think that covers all your software plus leftover many times over actually, given that your most expensive piece of software is Max or Maya.
Maybe you should point out how the prices are supposed to be for our work based on east/west side of US, and than places like UK, France, and Germany for the rest of us. Also you guys don't try to explain how exactly someone like me; who has maybe one 4-month contract under his belt, should charge for his work. Is the price of the artist determined by their work exp. or by the quality of their work?
Do the math, dont undercut yourself...
- Cheap
- Fast
- Quality
Pick any two.
The problem happens when artists provide all 3 to clients. I've seen it all too often an artist will do a great job on a tight deadline and get paid dirt cheap for it. That is not okay! But we fall into that trap easier than others I think because as artists we want to push ourselves and create amazing art or we're tricked into thinking "I can put this in my portfolio!" to generate more work later.
I complete agree, but than I don't think there are clients that expect to get triple-A work for cheap unless either, they think you are naive, or they may are just pure evil.
What I meant was gross income, I do understand there are taxes and living expenses but this things differ across the globe quite a bit. So I can understand why you people need four digit pay, no problem there, but this is not supposed to be standard pay across freelance field.
You would be surprised how many times clients or even the guys running the studio don't understand how much they are really asking for. Most of them probably aren't evil but rather genuinely have no idea how difficult the task is that they are asking to be complete by the next morning. This is kind of a huge problem with directors and ad agencies. But I've also run into it while making games.
that and lots of polishing...
That's the price of polished character work, whenther it's modeling/sculpting or character animation.
In most high end studios, polished animation in average is about 3 sec/week (depending on the shot)..
Translate that into dollars amount please O o?
do the (rough) math yourself. check how many people work on a pixar movie, check how long a movie is, divide that time by 3, now you know roughly how many weeks they worked on it.
multipy by people working on it, and any average salary you can come up with