Its really not that hard as many students make it seem to break into the industry if you are talented. Most people who say its really hard to break into the industry are students who are not talented enough to get in. They need to get over the fact that all the work they did in school was just to learn how to do this job, it wont actually get them a job.
Not an easy industry to break into, but not a super hard one either.
Well seeing as I haven't graduated and only just finished my timetabled lessons a week ago, yet the only person in my year to get a job so far; I guess i'm one of those talented ones
- and I applied for roles with portfolio work I did in school
But yeh mirroring this, I can't imagine work being a fun experience if im working ridiculous hours, thats not why I wanted to become in this industry
I totally agree with this mentality however the state of the 3D Graphics industry is pretty dire in many places... a lot of competition for jobs.
So many of people honestly feel grateful to be employed & not work at McDonalds etc... end up working extra hours during the week and coming in on weekends unpaid to get a job done, because you want the contract to be renewed. Its pretty self per-perpetuating and frustrating.
I'm lucky enough to currently work in a studio where crunch time happens but its only occasionally & they appreciate/reward you for it.
Its really not that hard as many students make it seem to break into the industry if you are talented. Most people who say its really hard to break into the industry are students who are not talented enough to get in. They need to get over the fact that all the work they did in school was just to learn how to do this job, it wont actually get them a job.
Not an easy industry to break into, but not a super hard one either.
well said.
in general i dont see it as being too big of a deal for working overtime. at both my current studio and the last one i worked at, meals were provided for anyone who worked nights, which was a nice thing to do, and after a long crunch, we were actually given a day off as a thanks for working hard.
the way i see it, if someone is on a team, and everyone is tasked to get something of relatively similar scale done in X time, then that person should be able to as well. if they're the only one working overtime, then its an issue with that person, and in order to keep up pace with the rest of the people yeah, they'll have to put in the time.
I completely understand working extra hours during your probationary period, you have a lot of tools to learn, especially if you are switching to a new 3d package, just don't burn yourself at out. Maybe consider spending sometime at home working in 3ds Max instead of the office.
If you're new and want to prove something, be alert, ask the right questions, give good updates about your progress and pay attention to details. Basically, make your boss's life easier rather than sitting at your desk for long hours. I have more respect for people who work smarter than harder - if you have good practices and workflows to get your work done in less time then I'm more impressed than by the guy who stays till 10 pm every day.
I know there's places who also abuse this. You're done with your work early? Here's more. But everyone knows that this is not the place you'll stay for long anyway. Stay a year so you've got something on the resume and move on.
very true words! Although schools and instructors are often telling people otherwise.
They can't help it. The people paying for the courses expect this as the result, even if it is unrealistic.
Personally i think these courses should be set up a lot more closely tied to the industry, like traineeships. ie. "you actually finished this course at X school we know very well, I've seen your standardised folio? You're hired!"
I don't quite understand how core hours relate to overtime? To me core hours are the time where people are at the office at the same time so they can work together. i.e. you want your IT team to be around when most people are there. But even with a minimum of core hours you can have shitty planning and everyone has to do overtime anyway....but maybe you're more flexible about overtime. But the problem still persists: overtime.
Asking about core hours just helps you figure out where their focus might be. Staying later than the boss, just warming a chair OR focused on the final result.
If everyone leaves at the same time, it makes it easier for the culture of martyrdom to exist and easier for new people to fall into the trap of staying late just to get a pat on the head as the boss leaves. Everyone knows they should go but everyone wants to be the last one out so they can take the crown as most dedicated employee. The focus is on the wrong thing and that hurts the business and has employees trying to perform to counterproductive standards.
New guy 1-3mo: "I'm so dedicated, the night janitor knows me by name! I bet they report to the bossman who stays the latest... teehee I'm winning!" New guy 6mo+: "come on everyone, just get out of here already so I can get out of here" Which is what everyone else is thinking.
If the place has core hours, of course people can still spend way too much time on a task but that's for them to work on as their work/life balances out. At first they are probably super crazy excited about putting in extra hours but they can get locked into it and feel like they do not have the freedom to leave on time. With people coming and going at different times the pressure is much less.
I feel bad for new people who have to work crazy hours just to hit the same quality mark that took someone else 40hrs. I know those crazy hours will start to wear them down at some point and they'll probably end up jaded and disgruntled which would put them on the chopping block faster than being the new guy that gets his stuff done and leaves on time.
Employee:"you're cutting me loose? But I'm dedicated, I stay late every day, I come in on the weekends! I sacrifice my personal time!!" Boss:"But it takes you 100hrs just to get what everyone else does in 40hrs, the bags under your eyes, the 60 gallon coffee mug in your hand and the giant chip on your shoulder, tell us this isn't a good fit"
If you get flak for leaving on time, flip it around on them. Tell them to check your work and say something to the effect of "I'm done and going to enjoy the rest of the day, I hope you can do the same...". Now the race is to get your work done and leave not stay late and putz around on BS.
For me core hours are important for a few reasons:
Saves me money.
3 days out of the week, I can pick my daughter up from school which saves me from having to pay for after school child care, or force my wife to work less, so she could pick her up (she doesn't have core hours and if she works less she loses her 401k matching and healthcare, it costs extra to put her on mine). The rest of the week I can choose to stay home and work on personal project in the morning, or do that in the evening.
Traffic.
I avoid it.
I live in the Northwest.
9mo out of the year its dark at 4:30pm, 3mo out of the year its dark at 10pm. It's nice to have the flexibility to shift my schedule with the sun so I'm not coming and going in total darkness.
We focus on the end product not the time spent making it.
Time spent making something only becomes a problem if the person goes over their time or it starts to affect the them in some way. Then we try to help them get the same results but faster. It gives new people the grace to get up to speed and the vets the freedom to leave early and not feel judged because they aren't hanging around longer than the new guy.
good answer Mark - that's how it would work out ideally, assuming your employers don't do it the way I've seen core hours been implemented in many cases. "Core hours? yeah we have them! They're 9 - 5. You can always come one hour early or stay one hour late. Oh, and this is without factoring in the lunch break"
he's just being a thoughtful and effective moderator
I mostly handle spam & authorize new users. I guess I'll never hear the end of my ridiculous suggestion that publicly bashing a studio's art team may effect your opportunities at that studio.
[*]I live in the Northwest.
9mo out of the year its dark at 4:30pm, 3mo out of the year its dark at 10pm. It's nice to have the flexibility to shift my schedule with the sun so I'm not coming and going in total darkness.
[/LIST]
Gawhd you reminded me how much i hate winter sometimes, nothing worse than not seeing the sun in any sort of capacity for like 3 months, it has a weird effect on you, guess its that whole Vitamin D stuff or something.
I think threads like these and the OP's video link are great for starting discussions. For the most part anyone who has been working in the industry for more than 2 years already has corrected there mentality, from whatever source burned it into their heads in the beginning.
In a way Polycount is a little schizophrenic on this issue though. There are many threads with people asking how to get started/break in to the industry. In all cases the most prevalent advice given is to really just put in the hours and practice. Which i totally agree with, its just unfortunate that this mentality gets twisted longterm by peer pressure/management, and results in these meta type issues for our industry.
Just my thoughts. not sure if i have any useful answers.
in general i dont see it as being too big of a deal for working overtime. at both my current studio and the last one i worked at, meals were provided for anyone who worked nights, which was a nice thing to do, and after a long crunch, we were actually given a day off as a thanks for working hard.
I think the attitude of working 2-5 extra hours for a 10-15 dollar meal, which is usually garbage take out food, pizza or something that is going to rot you from the Inside out/make you a fat.........is pretty crazy. 1 hour of my time should technically be worth around 35 bucks or so....not 2 slices of pizza and a diet coke.
and getting a day off after putting in 2-3 work weeks of overtime is pretty unjust as well. some places compensate better than others, but pretty much my mindset is, if im here I should be paid, not given theoretical time off at some point in the future, and these days its more likely than not at the end of a project, layoffs are a reality. yea so you get lots of time off..........just not paid for it.
In a way Polycount is a little schizophrenic on this issue though. There are many threads with people asking how to get started/break in to the industry. In all cases the most prevalent advice given is to really just put in the hours and practice. Which i totally agree with, its just unfortunate that this mentality gets twisted longterm by peer pressure/management, and results in these meta type issues for our industry.
The Canadian developers can probably relate to the lack of sun, its probably a little worse for them. CA or TX probably not so much?
Anyway, good thoughts.
People who get told to buckle down and practice usually are normally people using their C grade (by industry standard) student (A++ in school) portfolio to shop around for jobs. They are a bit disgruntled because they somehow equate generating higher gamer scores with generating new portfolio pieces, its all the same right? heh.
You are right, they never really get the "ok let up and relax" signal and on some levels I don't think any artists should fully relax and feel like they've arrived and can now slack off. The people who stick around, push themselves, maybe not as much as a student who is hungry and needs to prove themselves but they still push. But for the person who plays more than they create they need a swift kick in the ass to get their priorities in order.
I remember a few threads (I think it was Autocon) where some people said "bust your ass until you get in then you can slow down a bit. You still want to try and learn new things but you don't have to be quite so manic about it". Or something like that... but you're right I don't think its as widely publicized.
I mostly handle spam & authorize new users. I guess I'll never hear the end of my ridiculous suggestion that publicly bashing a studio's art team may effect your opportunities at that studio.
why am i a cock? I'm trying to figure out if you were voicing some hypothetical scenario where calling me names had some meaning (which escapes me) or if you were actually just being legitimately juvenile. I don't think ive ever exchanged words or ideas with you so i kinda cant figure out what's going on here...
the "lol blacklist" came from a thread where everyone started a internet hate party about the artist at a studio and I suggested that it wasn't a good idea.
I'm sorry I responded to your seriously thoughtful and valuable contribution to this discussion with juvenile behavior, I'll request your input added to the wiki.
the "lol blacklist" came from a thread where everyone started a internet hate party about the artist at a studio and I suggested that it wasn't a good idea.
I'm sorry I responded to your seriously thoughtful and valuable contribution to this discussion with juvenile behavior, I'll request your input added to the wiki.
Apparently two wrongs do make a right, i never knew. Excellent moderation skillz.
My stance on the issue is that blacklist fear mongering only makes people more willing to be exploited by companies because of their fears of being blacklisted... like the guy in the video says.
I didn't know you were the one who first mentioned the "blacklist theory" here.
In a way Polycount is a little schizophrenic on this issue though. There are many threads with people asking how to get started/break in to the industry. In all cases the most prevalent advice given is to really just put in the hours and practice. Which i totally agree with, its just unfortunate that this mentality gets twisted longterm by peer pressure/management, and results in these meta type issues for our industry.
Not quite. The deal here isn't between working 100-hour weeks, or working 10-hour weeks. It's about working crazy-overtime, or working the regular 40-hour weeks like a human being.
Under regular conditions 40-hours in a 5-day week is 8 hours a day. If you're trying to break in you gotta figure that people already in the industry put in their 8 hours a day, and they're better/more-experienced than you (not you personally, I mean someone trying to break in). So you can't expect to be just as good as them if you spend only half that time when you're inexperienced. That's where putting in the hours comes in.
But that's not to say that you need to go crazy either.
Apparently two wrongs do make a right, i never knew. Excellent moderation skillz.
My stance on the issue is that blacklist fear mongering only makes people more willing to be exploited by companies because of their fears of being blacklisted... like the guy in the video says.
I didn't know you were the one who first mentioned the "blacklist theory" here.
Act like a cock and I'll call you out on it.
In case there's some confusion over "blacklist theory" - it boils down to, if you refer to an art team as retarded or having something wrong with them don't be surprised if they remember that.
It really has nothing to do with this conversation so to show off some l33t moderation skills I'm just going to ignore this thread now, like I said before I try to focus on authorizing new users and deleting spam.
I mostly handle spam & authorize new users. I guess I'll never hear the end of my ridiculous suggestion that publicly bashing a studio's art team may effect your opportunities at that studio.
hey man don't ban me over it but you're basically coming into a thread, calling a dude a cock, backpedaling and then ghosting, on an account used for moderation of our lovely forum. it's pretty lame
I have a friend working on a long running franchise and they've been crunching for a decent bit of time on the latest installment. Common sense would dictate that they know how to make these games without crunching, so it really just comes down to a crap mentality ingrained in much of the industry. It will really take people with a different attitude to rise up the ranks and show them it's not necessary, though this isn't likely. Unfortunately, a lot of our peers still just think that's how the game industry is.
Crunch is avoidable in many cases, and accurately planning projects isn't all that difficult. Hopefully we'll see more companies adopt better practices. All you can really do is keep moving around 'till you find a good one or start your own and try to do things the "right way".
Replies
Well seeing as I haven't graduated and only just finished my timetabled lessons a week ago, yet the only person in my year to get a job so far; I guess i'm one of those talented ones
- and I applied for roles with portfolio work I did in school
But yeh mirroring this, I can't imagine work being a fun experience if im working ridiculous hours, thats not why I wanted to become in this industry
very true words! Although schools and instructors are often telling people otherwise.
So many of people honestly feel grateful to be employed & not work at McDonalds etc... end up working extra hours during the week and coming in on weekends unpaid to get a job done, because you want the contract to be renewed. Its pretty self per-perpetuating and frustrating.
I'm lucky enough to currently work in a studio where crunch time happens but its only occasionally & they appreciate/reward you for it.
well said.
in general i dont see it as being too big of a deal for working overtime. at both my current studio and the last one i worked at, meals were provided for anyone who worked nights, which was a nice thing to do, and after a long crunch, we were actually given a day off as a thanks for working hard.
the way i see it, if someone is on a team, and everyone is tasked to get something of relatively similar scale done in X time, then that person should be able to as well. if they're the only one working overtime, then its an issue with that person, and in order to keep up pace with the rest of the people yeah, they'll have to put in the time.
I know there's places who also abuse this. You're done with your work early? Here's more. But everyone knows that this is not the place you'll stay for long anyway. Stay a year so you've got something on the resume and move on.
They can't help it. The people paying for the courses expect this as the result, even if it is unrealistic.
Personally i think these courses should be set up a lot more closely tied to the industry, like traineeships. ie. "you actually finished this course at X school we know very well, I've seen your standardised folio? You're hired!"
If everyone leaves at the same time, it makes it easier for the culture of martyrdom to exist and easier for new people to fall into the trap of staying late just to get a pat on the head as the boss leaves. Everyone knows they should go but everyone wants to be the last one out so they can take the crown as most dedicated employee. The focus is on the wrong thing and that hurts the business and has employees trying to perform to counterproductive standards.
New guy 1-3mo: "I'm so dedicated, the night janitor knows me by name! I bet they report to the bossman who stays the latest... teehee I'm winning!"
New guy 6mo+: "come on everyone, just get out of here already so I can get out of here" Which is what everyone else is thinking.
If the place has core hours, of course people can still spend way too much time on a task but that's for them to work on as their work/life balances out. At first they are probably super crazy excited about putting in extra hours but they can get locked into it and feel like they do not have the freedom to leave on time. With people coming and going at different times the pressure is much less.
I feel bad for new people who have to work crazy hours just to hit the same quality mark that took someone else 40hrs. I know those crazy hours will start to wear them down at some point and they'll probably end up jaded and disgruntled which would put them on the chopping block faster than being the new guy that gets his stuff done and leaves on time.
Employee: "you're cutting me loose? But I'm dedicated, I stay late every day, I come in on the weekends! I sacrifice my personal time!!"
Boss: "But it takes you 100hrs just to get what everyone else does in 40hrs, the bags under your eyes, the 60 gallon coffee mug in your hand and the giant chip on your shoulder, tell us this isn't a good fit"
If you get flak for leaving on time, flip it around on them. Tell them to check your work and say something to the effect of "I'm done and going to enjoy the rest of the day, I hope you can do the same...". Now the race is to get your work done and leave not stay late and putz around on BS.
For me core hours are important for a few reasons:
3 days out of the week, I can pick my daughter up from school which saves me from having to pay for after school child care, or force my wife to work less, so she could pick her up (she doesn't have core hours and if she works less she loses her 401k matching and healthcare, it costs extra to put her on mine). The rest of the week I can choose to stay home and work on personal project in the morning, or do that in the evening.
I avoid it.
9mo out of the year its dark at 4:30pm, 3mo out of the year its dark at 10pm. It's nice to have the flexibility to shift my schedule with the sun so I'm not coming and going in total darkness.
Time spent making something only becomes a problem if the person goes over their time or it starts to affect the them in some way. Then we try to help them get the same results but faster. It gives new people the grace to get up to speed and the vets the freedom to leave early and not feel judged because they aren't hanging around longer than the new guy.
what
he's just being a thoughtful and effective moderator
watch out that kind of talk will land you on the BLACKLIST
:poly142::poly142::poly142:
I mostly handle spam & authorize new users. I guess I'll never hear the end of my ridiculous suggestion that publicly bashing a studio's art team may effect your opportunities at that studio.
Gawhd you reminded me how much i hate winter sometimes, nothing worse than not seeing the sun in any sort of capacity for like 3 months, it has a weird effect on you, guess its that whole Vitamin D stuff or something.
I think threads like these and the OP's video link are great for starting discussions. For the most part anyone who has been working in the industry for more than 2 years already has corrected there mentality, from whatever source burned it into their heads in the beginning.
In a way Polycount is a little schizophrenic on this issue though. There are many threads with people asking how to get started/break in to the industry. In all cases the most prevalent advice given is to really just put in the hours and practice. Which i totally agree with, its just unfortunate that this mentality gets twisted longterm by peer pressure/management, and results in these meta type issues for our industry.
Just my thoughts. not sure if i have any useful answers.
I think the attitude of working 2-5 extra hours for a 10-15 dollar meal, which is usually garbage take out food, pizza or something that is going to rot you from the Inside out/make you a fat.........is pretty crazy. 1 hour of my time should technically be worth around 35 bucks or so....not 2 slices of pizza and a diet coke.
and getting a day off after putting in 2-3 work weeks of overtime is pretty unjust as well. some places compensate better than others, but pretty much my mindset is, if im here I should be paid, not given theoretical time off at some point in the future, and these days its more likely than not at the end of a project, layoffs are a reality. yea so you get lots of time off..........just not paid for it.
Anyway, good thoughts.
People who get told to buckle down and practice usually are normally people using their C grade (by industry standard) student (A++ in school) portfolio to shop around for jobs. They are a bit disgruntled because they somehow equate generating higher gamer scores with generating new portfolio pieces, its all the same right? heh.
You are right, they never really get the "ok let up and relax" signal and on some levels I don't think any artists should fully relax and feel like they've arrived and can now slack off. The people who stick around, push themselves, maybe not as much as a student who is hungry and needs to prove themselves but they still push. But for the person who plays more than they create they need a swift kick in the ass to get their priorities in order.
I remember a few threads (I think it was Autocon) where some people said "bust your ass until you get in then you can slow down a bit. You still want to try and learn new things but you don't have to be quite so manic about it". Or something like that... but you're right I don't think its as widely publicized.
why am i a cock? I'm trying to figure out if you were voicing some hypothetical scenario where calling me names had some meaning (which escapes me) or if you were actually just being legitimately juvenile. I don't think ive ever exchanged words or ideas with you so i kinda cant figure out what's going on here...
I'm sorry I responded to your seriously thoughtful and valuable contribution to this discussion with juvenile behavior, I'll request your input added to the wiki.
I have included everyone who has posted in this thread, even myself. Especially myself. You have been warned.
Apparently two wrongs do make a right, i never knew. Excellent moderation skillz.
My stance on the issue is that blacklist fear mongering only makes people more willing to be exploited by companies because of their fears of being blacklisted... like the guy in the video says.
I didn't know you were the one who first mentioned the "blacklist theory" here.
Not quite. The deal here isn't between working 100-hour weeks, or working 10-hour weeks. It's about working crazy-overtime, or working the regular 40-hour weeks like a human being.
Under regular conditions 40-hours in a 5-day week is 8 hours a day. If you're trying to break in you gotta figure that people already in the industry put in their 8 hours a day, and they're better/more-experienced than you (not you personally, I mean someone trying to break in). So you can't expect to be just as good as them if you spend only half that time when you're inexperienced. That's where putting in the hours comes in.
But that's not to say that you need to go crazy either.
Act like a cock and I'll call you out on it.
In case there's some confusion over "blacklist theory" - it boils down to, if you refer to an art team as retarded or having something wrong with them don't be surprised if they remember that.
It really has nothing to do with this conversation so to show off some l33t moderation skills I'm just going to ignore this thread now, like I said before I try to focus on authorizing new users and deleting spam.
that's the part i don't get
Bwwwwwwark?
hey man don't ban me over it but you're basically coming into a thread, calling a dude a cock, backpedaling and then ghosting, on an account used for moderation of our lovely forum. it's pretty lame
BLAU
Crunch is avoidable in many cases, and accurately planning projects isn't all that difficult. Hopefully we'll see more companies adopt better practices. All you can really do is keep moving around 'till you find a good one or start your own and try to do things the "right way".