ANIMATION, GAMING studio artists WATCH OUT.-Stephen Silver
polycounter lvl 7
I was linked this by a friend today. Never been in the industry so I have nothing much to say about it but could be an interesting discussion point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H28CDpPF1Lo&feature=youtu.be
(Also I don't know how to embed youtube videos on polycount sorry)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H28CDpPF1Lo&feature=youtu.be
(Also I don't know how to embed youtube videos on polycount sorry)
Replies
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a lot of truth to this.
hopefully people will pay attention. but the problem is, if one person in a studio listens and does it, they'll lose their job, because they'll be labeled as "that guy, you know, the one who doesn't pull his weight like everyone else".
this kind of thing has to happen from the entire team, not one person at a time.
The crazy part about all of this is, as someone who graduated in 2009 from Full Sail, I was used to working 14-16 hour days during school and being told "This is the industry, if you can't cut it in school working this much then you wont make it in the industry. Because that is the norm."
That was the message I got from everyone, the teachers, other students, and even people from the industry who came to speak at the school. It's really engrained into the system from day one. Like a fool I bought into it too. But i'm starting to wake up. I'm glad these movements are popping up more and more.
I know those people weren't evil and they weren't doing it on purpose, but we've all gotten into that mindset and it needs to change.
All I could think was, 'that's great guys, but surely you're not saying you knock back people who actually prefer a normal work-week?'
Do programmers have the same problems?
I try to protect my department/team from the stupid OT but it unfortunately happens every so often. I've been fighting to get everyone paid OT and I've noticed that the stupid OT doesn't happen as much when the firm knows they are paying for it. They tend to really watch their changes and, quite honestly, we are producing far better graphics now that the teams are constantly being able to recharge their creative batteries on the nights/weekends.
Though it is not against the law to work OT for free, depending on the state you live in and your compensation (hourly is yes OT pay is required, salary is maybe). California has some pretty progressive laws to protect games/film/architecture on OT requirements. Other states in the US, not so much. I'm not sure about other countries. The work laws have not been updated to the current technology and workflows.
The more education we can get out there to the new people in the industry, the better it will get.
anyway good luck w. his incoming burnout.
It all comes down to professionalism. Some of the better studios in this industry will tell you that if you're putting in overtime (excluding crunch), you're not managing your time correctly.
Exactly. I wasn't gonna comment, but I feel like this needs to be echoed. Because I've seen exactly that happening, and I can guarantee you that if you pull stuff like this off, as much as I 100% agree with it, that's what will likely happen to you. Unless there's an understanding about this topic in the studio you're at. Which is awesome if there is, I just personally have never seen a studio like that.
It's actually kinda messed up how some artists will do this to their fellow artists.
It's also got to change from the top down. Especially with outside funding sources. The publisher/money source treat the development company as if you are so needing the funding that they can make ridiculous requests and by the fear of losing the funding, you'll get it done. They make it seem like constant crunch is the norm.
The only way real and lasting change can happen is by unity among the artists, as shown by the statements above.
They do.
But that depends on if you're hourly or salary. If you're salary, then you just get paid your flat wage and that's that. Whatever overtime you do doesn't get added to that. Unless there was some arrangement made beforehand for you to be compensated, which often times there isn't, especially in the smaller studios.
I am asking this to all industry professionals there. because i am new, and i want to work, but also be payed, the hours i put. Is everywhere like this? Not being payed? How do you deal it with?
What then you are still in this industry?
In contrast to that, I've heard of a studio or two who really pump their workers for months and years to get a game out, but give enormous bonuses along with an already competitive salary.
Personally, I stay late almost every day, but I never work on stuff for my job during that time, and I make it clear to people I work with/for. I just have a good flow going by that time and I immediately want to pump that into some personal projects/art skill honing before I take the trip home and unwind.
How to know which studio have flexible hours? For example, i want to Canada, and work for studios like BioWare, Ubisoft, etc.
Also many studios have different cultures and approaches to time keeping and time management, with various things like 'core hours' and/or 'flexi-time' being used. And many people don't know or seek to find out how these things work.
Maybe I'm old-fashioned but if you're contracted and expected to be at work between certain times, you damn well be there.
Core hours are really the times that every who should be working, is working. If you have some people working 8-5 and others 10-7, that's not flexi-time, that's really like shift work, and there is a difference.
Personally I like the idea of flexi-time but I think people just don't really understand how it actually works. Flexi-time is what it says, flexible time to use if and when you need to, not as the norm.
If there's some margin of flex for medical appointments, child-care, personal reasons etc, then that's fine, just don't take the piss. It doesn't mean an extra hour in bed.
I've known many people in the past (including myself) say they stay later or work outside the core hours because they get more done and/or aren't disturbed, but personally I'm not a fan of this. And if this is happening then there's a problem somewhere, either a persons workload is too much, or time isn't being managed properly, or they just have to push back more and make the time. The danger with this is that a person starts staying late, then leaves late, gets home late, eats late, sleeps late and then wakes late, only to arrive back at work late. I've seen this happen many times, it's nasty cycle that only gets worse.
There is another issue about this, which I'm also glad someone has mentioned, and that's the singling out of someone for 'not pulling weight' if they're going home having completed their work.
Again, I saw this happen at one company I worked at and though it was denied, everyone knew it went on. The excuse I would hear from producers was that it was good for morale if the whole team was pulling together, but it's not fun watching someone playing a game on the desk opposite because they don't have much to do, and you're snowed under in work and bugs.
I was always of the view that staying later than you wanted/needed to was really common sense and also personal choice. If you'd done your work and you're on track etc, then go home (and I would even send people home as well). If you had some work that had to make the build and perhaps stay, make sure the data submitted and worked before then going, but when you were done, go. If you decided to stay behind anyway, regardless, then that was your choice and yours alone.
Have done this working for a week to 2 weeks at points for £200-300 if that, its not good, don't kill yourself for nothing!
I think it's meant to make them look dedicated, but to the other people you work with, the other artists specifically, at least in my experience, you're viewed as a person that can't get their work done during regular working hours for one reason or another (deadlines/crunching are a different story, which comes down to management, but that's another discussion entirely).
You also, as has been stated, inadvertently screw your co-workers. When I started down this career path, I told myself that I would not be one that works 75-80 hours a week. Even if it meant I missed out on some career opportunities, I refused/still refuse to sacrifice my health, sanity, and personal life for a job. I don't want to be seen as "not dedicated" because I work the hours I was hired to work, and go home when those requirements have been fulfilled.
I think people want to be seen as hard-working by the higher-ups, and unfortunately those that aren't artists and don't really know the workflow, and what goes into making game art, they buy into it, saying things like, "Look how dedicated this guy is!" It's a really shitty practice and one I hope to see diminish as I spend more time in the industry. Great video though, I'll be sharing this with my co-workers.
Good point about dedication. That's actually not a thing that comes to my mind when someone works late: that they're dedicated. It's more like "maybe they didn't get it all done and now have to catch up". I just assume that it's natural for most people to want to go home when the work is done (unless your home sucks, then you're excused
Also when it comes to motivation... the whole "he's not pulling his weight" BS probably demotivates much less than endless crunch...
I should have clarified, as no job is going to up-front tell you, "By the way, we're expecting you to work 60 hours a week, but we'll pay you for 40." I was thinking more about once you're at a job, and the management is mistakenly impressed by all the extra hours, and reward that with promotions (which in turn will make the problem far worse, setting a bad precedent.) I'm with you on the rest of it.
If you actually think about it, someone telling you to create something that's never existed before in x amount of time is just plain retarded. How can anyone estimate how long something will take to create if it's never existed before? Unanticipated shit comes up all the time in the design process if you're doing something truly original.
If the person in charge has no idea what goes into making something then they have no business setting deadlines and shouldn't be working there. Period. This is why I'm strictly freelance and have money saved up in case I just need to leave a horrible job due to stupid management. I switched to freelance before I even went back to college for game stuff and I'll never go back to the corporate trainwreck scenario. You might have a dream to work on the next big AAA title but it's not worth it, in my opinion, considering all the corporate BS that comes along with it. There's more than enough indie projects to work on.
With some experience you should be able to look at a concept and say "that will take x days" with some confidence - from my personal experience it's a bit easier to do with characters than environments.
I never time assets up to the nose. Usually I add 10-20% additional time costing onto everything simply because its a safer bet should the unforseen happen and it also allows your Art Manager/Lead to produce a schedule which is more reliable.
If you can work to that schedule then you are reliable. If you overpromise and fail to deliver constantly then your not doing yourself any favours.
I've recently gained my first 3D art position in industry (not quite games more film and advertisements) however its a first step and I'm happy that i've been given a great opportunity.
I've been informed that it is a busy period at the moment, and whilst I don't have to work overtime or weekends, alot of the team are; and seeing as I have a 1 month probation; intend on being there as long as possible to try and secure my job. Whilst I enjoy what I do, and will be keeping my second job in retail on until this positioned secured; I will be working 100hr weeks; to just PROVE that i'm dedicated and good for this role.
In addition to this; its a max studio, im primary Maya so i have a very stressfull month ahead.
- David
Thanks for perpetuating the issue.
Those others who didn't get very far, I doubt it's simply because they didn't go without sleep.
Its not about perpetuating the issue, its that without doing so; i wouldn't get a job; its not just expected, but a requirement of the role;
everyone here knows how ridiculously hard it is to break into industry, especially on their first job.
But in reference to the topic: what you're saying must be done is exactly what this thread is against and wishes to see change.
Let me put it this way. You work really hard, like your 100s of hours extra to prove to somebody that you are worth it. What do you get rewarded with? A promotion? If so or not, either way, after all that effort some new guy with decent skills is hired and does his hours and then leaves at the end of his shift, what will you think of him? I mean he doesn't work as hard as you do but he's still employed... THE NERVE
This is why we need to fight such ideologies. Across the board, not just in games either. If we work ourselves to the bone because that's how it is now, and then do just that to get in, and then do it some more just to survive then when will it end?
*edit* even more specifically is the need for these changes to be in unpaid overtime. If everyone wants to kill themselves with crunch et. al. then fine, but I'm of the opinion they should get paid for every minute.
No this is wrong, 100 hour weeks is insanity. I have zero respect for anyone that would voluntarily do this to themselves. I had saltier words for you but I'm holding back.
Going without sleep doesn't prove you are dedicated. It proves you can't manage your time properly.
This is something everyone in my studio does by default. It's very much an attitude that comes from the top down.
We are all salary and encouraged to only work 8hrs, they want a good life-work balance for everyone here. If we work longer than its seen as a scheduling problem.
They are fine if someone has an off day or even an off week and wants to stick around to catch up but if that happens too often then it's frowned upon. The head of our studio will tell people to go home if they're over they are there 9-10 hrs. He has also sent us home with pay on days that's it nice, "go enjoy today we don't get too many of these". We will also go out to a movie or a long lunch on company time and everyone understands that everything still needs to get done on time. Most of the time we work up to put ourselves in a good spot to do something like that.
No one here thinks they are judged by how long they sit in a chair. It's not some weird kind of king of the hill to be the last person out. No one looks at the last person working as some kind of martyr or hero.
If you get your work done early, you're a rockstar, go do something creative or cool with our extra time.
If you get your work done on time, neat, don't expect a parade.
If you don't get your work done on time, there is something wrong and they start with management's ability to schedule and work their way down to the employee.
Everyone here has been here for a really long time and the top brass really like slightly overestimating the time it takes, because that's where people start to innovate and try out new things.
Personally I think one key question people should ask when interviewing (remember you are also interviewing them) is to ask about "core hours".
If they have core hours like say 10am-3pm and they really don't care when you come in or when you go so long as you get your work done and are there for meetings and whatnot then it's up to you to manage your time and keep things reasonable. If they have set start and end times then the martyrdom seems to be an easy mindset to develop.
Captain comes in and says he needs the warp drive up and running ASAP. It will take 3 hours. You say it will take 6. He panics and says you have 4, make them count. Now you spend 3 hours getting warp drive up, and you have an hour to spare to upgrade the photon torpedoes. When the Romulans decloak, you're all set with Warp AND upgraded torpedoes.
You clearly mis-interpreted what I said.
I currently have TWO jobs. Until my job is secure, I will work both. My 3D role is 8:45 - 5pm, with extra hours on top IF required, which the rest of the team is working; I have a fiance, of-course i'd love to go home and relax in the lovely summer weather.
I am not in the situation to risk unemployment if i did not pass the probation period; i have a backup plan and tend to stick to it UNTIL this period is finished with;
once then, i can happily quit my retail role.
I did not, nor intend to suggest that I spend 100 hours a week in a chair, im a guy whos just finished University and seeking work with like many, student debts to pay.
I find it disgusting that you can FLAME me for trying to break into the industry, I'm not morally wrong im just trying to be finacially secure for the time being.
- David
Because you came across as saying you're going to work 100 hours at your new job to try and prove yourself. People that do that are doing damage and perpetuating abusive game studios.
But man, you should leave your retail job, you won't have the stamina to last a month and your work will suffer.
As much as I'd absolutely LOVE to leave it, at this moment in time, it wouldnt be financially smart to leave a job that I'm not certain of gaining; heck I could be considered unemployed in a months time if I did that. - Im moving into a new house so my lifes quite hectic at the moment too.
If i get a contract, i'll be on the phone to my retail manager within seconds.. I've worked there for 5 years from college to the end of Uni... i've paid my dues hahaha
what's this all about? I personally think you're a cock but it's not like there's a blacklist.
Its really not that hard as many students make it seem to break into the industry if you are talented. Most people who say its really hard to break into the industry are students who are not talented enough to get in. They need to get over the fact that all the work they did in school was just to learn how to do this job, it wont actually get them a job.
Not an easy industry to break into, but not a super hard one either.
As someone who got into the industry with this overworking mindset I made every single one of the mistakes with the common work day. It was not at all unusual for me to go in at 8 in the morning and leave around midnight. I was fortunate enough to work at a studio that did not abuse this and I was often told to please go home after a normal work day. I ran this way up to a point I damn near broke my sanity and realized that without funneling enough of my time into my own work (at home which is important!)I was only hitting a wall and really wasting my time. It doesn't matter how fast or good you are there is always more work to be had and another quality bar to hit!
Fast forward a few years later and I really can not stress enough the importance of working a normal work day and getting a solid 8 hours of sleep. Go home and work on personal projects (probably one of the most important things for any artist). This is a career field where you never stop learning and if you give a damn about your art it will drive you nuts to not work on your skill set in some capacity in your own time. Although it is important to understand your personal needs and personal limits. Find the things you want to work on and really hammer them home, spend your time wisely and more importantly balance it with other life activities.
As for the student mentality running rampant it really is bullshit and borders on pure insanity. You can work yourself into the ground with foolish repetition or take the time to be honest with yourself and spend the appropriate time wisely and effectively. Two little magic words of a real honest professional TIME MANAGEMENT (of which even I need to be better at).
An artist with a strong foundation and sophisticated sensibilities is worth 1000x more than a younger individual ready to spend 100 hours a week copying others mindlessly.