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District 9 Mech - WIP

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  • Damian Nachman
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    Damian Nachman polycounter lvl 4
    For some reason, I'm noticing that most SD texture work tend to look noisy and weird.
    Is it perhaps because of the Curv/AO maps that SD produces?
    Don't get me wrong. I adore SD, and use it daily, but it seems like the mesh-adaptive generators tend to be abit finicky. In the end, I tend to hand paint alot of detail instead.
  • Quack!
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    Quack! polycounter lvl 13
    MeshPotato wrote: »
    For some reason, I'm noticing that most SD texture work tend to look noisy and weird.
    Is it perhaps because of the Curv/AO maps that SD produces?
    Don't get me wrong. I adore SD, and use it daily, but it seems like the mesh-adaptive generators tend to be abit finicky. In the end, I tend to hand paint alot of detail instead.

    Just from the little I have worked with it, any noise that is coming from SD is the user's problem. The mesh adaptive, by default, does have a ton of noise, but that can be killed easily. At the way I have it now was by design (which doesn't mean it is the best way, yet). Once I get the alien markings on there, and finalize the edge wear to chrome I'll re-evaluate how noisy they are so there are areas to give the eye rest.

    With that said, this is a combat mech that just was rolling around a battlefield, so I am cool with noise.

    Thanks!
  • Damian Nachman
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    Damian Nachman polycounter lvl 4
    Quack! wrote: »
    Just from the little I have worked with it, any noise that is coming from SD is the user's problem. The mesh adaptive, by default, does have a ton of noise, but that can be killed easily. At the way I have it now was by design (which doesn't mean it is the best way, yet). Once I get the alien markings on there, and finalize the edge wear to chrome I'll re-evaluate how noisy they are so there are areas to give the eye rest.

    With that said, this is a combat mech that just was rolling around a battlefield, so I am cool with noise.

    Thanks!
    Yea, I Guess you're right.
    Once I limit the controls(Contrast+Levels+Edge marking can become overwhelming), I feel a lot more in control.
    Also, I've learned that being cheapish with wear n' tear can make it pop even more.
  • Quack!
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    Quack! polycounter lvl 13
    MeshPotato wrote: »
    Yea, I Guess you're right.
    Once I limit the controls(Contrast+Levels+Edge marking can become overwhelming), I feel a lot more in control.
    Also, I've learned that being cheapish with wear n' tear can make it pop even more.

    This is the exact reason that Substance Designer can be hard to get into. Not only do you have to develop a new mindset for material creation, but you also have to control yourself and not over do everything, something I am personally still coming to grips with.

    In the end, I have no doubt that SD has a very bright future, and that any artist should really try to learn it.

    I have made chrome for this model, I now don't ever need to make chrome again for another model, I just can copy and paste that over. That is AMAZING, compared to having to author every single material layer again per project.
  • Quack!
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    Quack! polycounter lvl 13
    Procedural bullet impacts ahoy!

    All controlled by sliders, so I can automate size, amount, normal intensity, etc.

    Crits?

    1obdBmu
  • Quack!
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    Quack! polycounter lvl 13
    Last update for the night

    1obrTDy
  • Stirls
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    Stirls polycounter lvl 5
    You might want to throw a bit of contrast on the body. Personally, I'm not really liking the scorch-marks. They come off as a bit copy-paste.
  • Bruno Afonseca
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    Bruno Afonseca Polycount Sponsor
    Hey man, that's looking interesting :)

    I'm not too sure about this chipped paint on the edges, looks too neat and almost pattern-like to me. I'd make some overall wear, making it stronger on edges but not limited to them. Perhaps using the AO to mask it, as I believe that the recessed parts won't be grinding against anything if the robot was being kicked and dragged around. Also I'm missing smaller scratches along with the flaking paint.

    The bullet marks are interesting but the 'soot' looks a bit too fuzzy. You could make it sharper and blur it upwards a bit, using a slope blur node, plugging in the position and setting it to 'min', as smoke and fire tends to rise and burn upwards.

    Also you could have some stretched marks as if he was shot by an angle, all the current ones look as if he was shot at a 90º angle.
  • Quack!
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    Quack! polycounter lvl 13
    Stirls wrote: »
    You might want to throw a bit of contrast on the body. Personally, I'm not really liking the scorch-marks. They come off as a bit copy-paste.

    Thanks for the crit! I will take a look at the scorch areas and rework them a bit. Vary their opacity and give them a bit less uniform look, thanks!
    Hey man, that's looking interesting :)

    I'm not too sure about this chipped paint on the edges, looks too neat and almost pattern-like to me. I'd make some overall wear, making it stronger on edges but not limited to them. Perhaps using the AO to mask it, as I believe that the recessed parts won't be grinding against anything if the robot was being kicked and dragged around. Also I'm missing smaller scratches along with the flaking paint.

    The bullet marks are interesting but the 'soot' looks a bit too fuzzy. You could make it sharper and blur it upwards a bit, using a slope blur node, plugging in the position and setting it to 'min', as smoke and fire tends to rise and burn upwards.

    Also you could have some stretched marks as if he was shot by an angle, all the current ones look as if he was shot at a 90º angle.

    Yay for great crits! Thanks, I agree with everything you stated and will do another round of iteration on each aspect, thanks!
  • sltrOlsson
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    sltrOlsson polycounter lvl 10
    Bad ass dude! Your textures is a bit noisy kinda ll over. Save the more noisy details for specific areas and let other parts be more solid.. I feel that there's no place to rest your eyes here, so a bit to uniform when it comes to dirt, scratches and bullet holes. Uniform in size, amount and placement.

    Great progress!
  • Quack!
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    Quack! polycounter lvl 13
    sltrOlsson wrote: »
    Bad ass dude! Your textures is a bit noisy kinda ll over. Save the more noisy details for specific areas and let other parts be more solid.. I feel that there's no place to rest your eyes here, so a bit to uniform when it comes to dirt, scratches and bullet holes. Uniform in size, amount and placement.

    Great progress!

    Thanks for the crit. I think that is the number one crit so far is the uniformity, which is causing noisiness. I plan on adding in more story driven large scale unique wear and reducing the noisyness of plenty of the repeating wear effects. I think these two things will not only increase the personality of the damage, but reduce the main concern. Thanks!
  • urgaffel
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    urgaffel polycounter lvl 12
    A small thing regarding the bullet holes/decals; a lot of them look like they're using the same basic decal. They have two-three small, slightly fuzzy lines coming out on one side and I see them all over the place. They don't look unique enough to me, not sure if that's because they use a certain element that gets rotated around or something else.

    It also feels like the wear and tear is too large in a lot of the places where you have chipped paint etc, if you have a large chipped area the edges must be pretty crisp while at the moment they are a bit on the soft side. Personally I'd like to see fewer large chips but that's just me. Areas that stand out regarding large chips are the elbow, the black part of the hips and the white pieces next to the large black box coming out of the back. To me some of them look too large and some don't look like they should be where they are, as in how would they get chipped like they have? It seems a little bit too random if that makes sense...
  • pmiller001
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    pmiller001 greentooth
    oh my is that clean .
  • Quack!
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    Quack! polycounter lvl 13
    Thanks for the crit Urg and comment pmiller.

    Here is an update to the texture. This thing is running around a ghetto in the desert, so it is gonna be dirty!

    Onto the cabling and the insides, this should bulk it up quite a bit.

    Still to do:
    -Iterate on the alien chrome material once more.
    -Normalize color values and materials in Toolbag2
    -Add cable details and materials
    -Pose the mech all cool like.

    1kT9sTH

    and

    1ku6N2b
  • lotet
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    lotet quad damage
    This is pure hard surface porn :)
  • Quack!
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    Quack! polycounter lvl 13
    lotet wrote: »
    This is pure hard surface porn :)

    Glad you could, enjoy!
    Shaz_Snow wrote: »
    You know what would be cool? Making him mossy. The story behind this: a mech retrieved after a long time. Maybe even make a scene, its up to you. Just wanted to give you an idea :)

    That's a neat idea! But I probably won't be exploring that for this guy. But I do have plans for a full scene with him.
  • gfelton
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    gfelton polycounter lvl 5
    Keep this up man, fucking amazing.
  • cman2k
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    cman2k polycounter lvl 12
    Hey Nick,

    There are some things you have done with your material work that, while perhaps authentic to the film, don't read well to me. Mostly this has to do with the small amount of variety to the materials used in the piece. In all honestly, we've both seen the Weta replicas now and I have the same critiques for them as I do for your piece here. Perhaps these aren't valid through the lens of creating something perfectly authentic to the film, but I do feel it would improve the end product.

    So primarily I feel that some pieces are so obviously a collection of seperate parts but all have the same materials applied. Adding variety to these materials can add so much.

    hgrrNsI.jpg
    fqMbUNY.jpg

    1. It can help it feel like it's a collection of built parts instead of a single cast part.
    2. It can give contrast to the parts, pulling out the details you have painstakingly modeled, even from a distance.
    3. It can add authenticity - real-life engineering often uses different metals and treatments for parts be they cast, machined, treated for high-friction use, etc.
    4. It can help avoid things feeling 'flat' in that it gives the eye points to focus on and move across.

    Perhaps my examples here push it a bit too far, but I was trying to make my points clear. And to further clarify, while I focused on value alone, adding variety solely through material properties like roughness or normal details could help just as much. It all comes down to helping your detail work come across really well and have your piece as a whole have a lot of visual interest.

    Hope this helps.
  • Quack!
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    Quack! polycounter lvl 13
    gfelton wrote: »
    Keep this up man, fucking amazing.

    Thanks!
    cman2k wrote: »
    Hey Nick,

    There are some things you have done with your material work that, while perhaps authentic to the film, don't read well to me. Mostly this has to do with the small amount of variety to the materials used in the piece. In all honestly, we've both seen the Weta replicas now and I have the same critiques for them as I do for your piece here. Perhaps these aren't valid through the lens of creating something perfectly authentic to the film, but I do feel it would improve the end product.

    So primarily I feel that some pieces are so obviously a collection of seperate parts but all have the same materials applied. Adding variety to these materials can add so much.

    http://i.imgur.com/hgrrNsI.jpg
    http://i.imgur.com/fqMbUNY.jpg

    1. It can help it feel like it's a collection of built parts instead of a single cast part.
    2. It can give contrast to the parts, pulling out the details you have painstakingly modeled, even from a distance.
    3. It can add authenticity - real-life engineering often uses different metals and treatments for parts be they cast, machined, treated for high-friction use, etc.
    4. It can help avoid things feeling 'flat' in that it gives the eye points to focus on and move across.

    Perhaps my examples here push it a bit too far, but I was trying to make my points clear. And to further clarify, while I focused on value alone, adding variety solely through material properties like roughness or normal details could help just as much. It all comes down to helping your detail work come across really well and have your piece as a whole have a lot of visual interest.

    Hope this helps.

    I just read this as I am about to post this next image so I haven't taken into account what you said. I am giving myself 1 more go around at the materials next and will apply your suggestions on the next update. Thanks for the taking the time for the critique.

    Onto what I have for tonight, I added in the cabling and backing which gave it a TON of weight. I also took it into Toolbag2 for a much better render, SD's viewports need a bit more work compared to it.

    Stuff left to do:
    -Finalize materials
    -Cool pose! (or 2)
    -Guns

    Let me know what ya think!

    1lTD9yZ
  • Bruno Afonseca
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    Bruno Afonseca Polycount Sponsor
    Much better!
    I agree with the Carlos' crits about the lack of material variation. You have some crazy intricate high poly work that's getting washed out due to the lack of contrast, but that depends on how much you're willing to deviate from the original design. Personally I'd go crazy and throw in some rubber, chrome, lights, paint the metal in different colors in some spots, say making the claws and fangs red, etc. Keep it up!
  • Squals
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    Squals polycounter lvl 5
    Cool stuff man, A lot of mech parts done in max, impressive!
  • Quack!
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    Quack! polycounter lvl 13
    Much better!
    I agree with the Carlos' crits about the lack of material variation. You have some crazy intricate high poly work that's getting washed out due to the lack of contrast, but that depends on how much you're willing to deviate from the original design. Personally I'd go crazy and throw in some rubber, chrome, lights, paint the metal in different colors in some spots, say making the claws and fangs red, etc. Keep it up!

    Thanks Bruno! I am sticking pretty close to the concept from the Artbook, but have no problem embellishing.
    Squals wrote: »
    Cool stuff man, A lot of mech parts done in max, impressive!

    Thanks Squals!
  • Quack!
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    Quack! polycounter lvl 13
    Another Material pass. I changed a bunch of things around to see if I like it, let me know what you think. Just noticed some obvious mirroring things that I'll clean up.

    1oUtBIY
  • sltrOlsson
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    sltrOlsson polycounter lvl 10
    I don't know how old you want this to feel, but I think it would add visual interest to add signs of age with painted damaged areas and oil stains.

    Oil stains like this, either in gloss or albedo http://cgtextures.com/texview.php?id=5467

    And painted erosion spots that was painted over quick and not with that great care of color matching.. http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_-wk2QCUgoEM/THAvuPD6PTI/AAAAAAAAAME/U-Hqzs9ZNnY/s1600/container+cabin+014.JPG

    The wear on the top part of the mech still feels pretty generic. I think you would benefit from having more then one type of wear to, something that only affects the glossiness of the paint for example.
  • Quack!
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    Quack! polycounter lvl 13
    sltrOlsson wrote: »
    I don't know how old you want this to feel, but I think it would add visual interest to add signs of age with painted damaged areas and oil stains.

    Oil stains like this, either in gloss or albedo http://cgtextures.com/texview.php?id=5467

    And painted erosion spots that was painted over quick and not with that great care of color matching.. http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_-wk2QCUgoEM/THAvuPD6PTI/AAAAAAAAAME/U-Hqzs9ZNnY/s1600/container+cabin+014.JPG

    The wear on the top part of the mech still feels pretty generic. I think you would benefit from having more then one type of wear to, something that only affects the glossiness of the paint for example.

    I do have some variation in the paint similar to those oil stains. But they are a bit sharper and come off as 'just gunk'. I may take a look a those and see if I can vary them up a bit. I think adding in brush stroke like paint effects to the main areas will add a bunch of noise to this already noisy texture, but I'll give it a go in a few select areas.

    One last thing I do want to do with the material is to add oil/grime leaks from a few select spots. I would like to do this procedurally, but I can't get SD's directional blur / streaks functions to work, I think they may be broken or I am.

    Thanks for the crit sltr0lsson
  • Cav73
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    Cav73 polycounter lvl 11
  • slosh
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    slosh quad damage
    Some of the noise is just way too strong...overall looking nice though!
  • Quack!
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    Quack! polycounter lvl 13
    slosh wrote: »
    Some of the noise is just way too strong...overall looking nice though!

    Yea I dialed that WAY back after the last update, it was an unwanted side effect of me messing with the Roughness values.

    Cav73 - Thanks!
  • Damian Nachman
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    Damian Nachman polycounter lvl 4
    Beautiful work Nick!
    The latest material pass did wonders. I'd consider making the textures a little bit less grungy, but that's just preference.
    Also, would you mind sharing flats?
  • Quack!
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    Quack! polycounter lvl 13
    MeshPotato wrote: »
    Beautiful work Nick!
    The latest material pass did wonders. I'd consider making the textures a little bit less grungy, but that's just preference.
    Also, would you mind sharing flats?

    I will share all the standard shots and the substance graph closer to completion of this, so stay tuned!

    Update:

    Made the low poly for the Rifle and baked it down.

    VKDdKz
  • Grums
    Bake looks perfect! What program do you use for baking? Would be great when all is finished if you could show a wireframe and also the high poly if possible.

    Also, the mech looks great!
  • dr grim
    The decals feel too sharp and too strong IMO

    The spec/reflection noise on the metal bug me a bit, it seems too simplistic for such an advanced piece of tech, like made from cast iron or something.

    At any rate, Quackilicious indeed.

    How do you like the Substance tools, btw? Are they here to rule over all others like the One Ring?
  • Quack!
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    Quack! polycounter lvl 13
    Grums wrote: »
    Bake looks perfect! What program do you use for baking? Would be great when all is finished if you could show a wireframe and also the high poly if possible.

    Also, the mech looks great!

    I'll show my wireframes all in a bunch once I complete the project, so keep an eye out for that. The high poly is earlier in this thread, just go back a page or 3 to find it. Thanks!
    dr grim wrote: »
    The decals feel too sharp and too strong IMO

    The spec/reflection noise on the metal bug me a bit, it seems too simplistic for such an advanced piece of tech, like made from cast iron or something.

    At any rate, Quackilicious indeed.

    How do you like the Substance tools, btw? Are they here to rule over all others like the One Ring?

    I understand your crit about the metal. I feel that I am achieving what I originally set out to do, which is that all the colored metal is alien chrome covered in a very thick layer of protective adhesive/paint. With that said, I do want to make sure it comes off less like cast iron, so I'll look into that.

    Yes, Substance Designer and programs of it's ilk are the future of texturing. Photoshop's role is going to be greatly diminished over the next 5 years.
  • josh_lynch
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    josh_lynch interpolator
    Digging the new gun and bake, so clean I could eat a pork chop off of it, love it!

    Cant wait to see the texture treatment!
  • dr grim
    Quack! wrote: »
    I'll show my wireframes all in a bunch once I complete the project, so keep an eye out for that. The high poly is earlier in this thread, just go back a page or 3 to find it. Thanks!



    I understand your crit about the metal. I feel that I am achieving what I originally set out to do, which is that all the colored metal is alien chrome covered in a very thick layer of protective adhesive/paint. With that said, I do want to make sure it comes off less like cast iron, so I'll look into that.

    Yes, Substance Designer and programs of it's ilk are the future of texturing. Photoshop's role is going to be greatly diminished over the next 5 years.


    Well, regarding the metal maybe it's worth trying something with the incandescence channel if there's such a thing in SD. Something very subtle. Or maybe iridescence or something like that. I'm sure you'll figure it out anyways. I thought of Orichalcum, Atlantis power source as described by Plato in his Last Dialogue. But hey, what do ancient greeks know about Mech suits anyways? :P

    Regarding Substance Designer/Photoshop It was one of my beefs with game assets creation, so much alt-tabbing, lots of back and forth until you'd get it right, each engine doing things its own way etc. I am guessing Substance Painter and Designer look like close to UE4 or something like that so it's not much work to get the same look from one to the other.

    At any rate I'll keep an eye on your progress, it's looking awesome!
  • Quack!
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    Quack! polycounter lvl 13
    Initial overall Substance Designer work on the gun. I am excited that I have learned quite a bit about Substance Designer between the mech and this gun. I can retroactively apply what I learned and will update the mech also.

    Still to do:
    Unique wear and tear
    Mechanical Leaks
    Painted Decals and Lettering

    1vPF7WR
  • Damian Nachman
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    Damian Nachman polycounter lvl 4
    I Like the chrome, though I would try reducing the contrast on the edge wear masks. Try to make it a little bit more "grainy" and "gradual", if that makes sense.
    Also, I would change to grip material. Maybe darken it a little for contrast.
  • josh_lynch
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    josh_lynch interpolator
    Looking good! Really excited to see some good work using Substance tools.

    Some directional surface paint wear and fine scratches and gouges on the gun would be neat.

    Look forward to the next updates!
  • Quack!
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    Quack! polycounter lvl 13
    MeshPotato wrote: »
    I Like the chrome, though I would try reducing the contrast on the edge wear masks. Try to make it a little bit more "grainy" and "gradual", if that makes sense.
    Also, I would change to grip material. Maybe darken it a little for contrast.

    Agreed about the wear and tear, to many hard chips and not enough soft wear, will fix that, thanks! And yea, the grip material needs more love.
    josh_lynch wrote: »
    Looking good! Really excited to see some good work using Substance tools.

    Some directional surface paint wear and fine scratches and gouges on the gun would be neat.

    Look forward to the next updates!

    Thanks, story-based wear and tear is in the next pass!
  • BeardyDan
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    BeardyDan polycounter lvl 2
    Looking great, nice work!
  • Quack!
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    Quack! polycounter lvl 13
    Thanks BeardyDan!

    I didn't quite get this to where I wanted it, but I am now grinding my gears and I need to move on.

    1tk9QgK
  • josh_lynch
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    josh_lynch interpolator
    This turned out really good!

    I know you are working in Substance Designer. Can you talk about how you rendered this asset? Was it in Substance Designer or Painter or Marmoset 2 etc? If it was outside of Substance what were some of the things you noticed about exporting the textures? Was there any tweaking?
  • dr grim
    It's looking good, just wrap this up and move on!
  • Quack!
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    Quack! polycounter lvl 13
    josh_lynch wrote: »
    This turned out really good!

    I know you are working in Substance Designer. Can you talk about how you rendered this asset? Was it in Substance Designer or Painter or Marmoset 2 etc? If it was outside of Substance what were some of the things you noticed about exporting the textures? Was there any tweaking?

    This is Toolbag2 shot. As far as texture tweaking, there really wasn't much. I made sure to use similar cubemaps in both Designer and Toolbag2 to make sure I was previewing with the closest lighting setup between the two. With that said, Toolbag2's does a far better job at presenting a model then SD, their previewer needs some work to be worth taking screenshots in over Toolbag2 or even UE4.

    Thanks!

    Drgrim - Yea, onto the next gun. Should be much faster, low, unwrap, bake, color/decal masks, then let this substance run over it and voila! Instant materials.
  • dr grim
    Quick side question, Quack: Have you tested the transparency in Substance Painter? Marmoset's isn't up to snuff and the makers agree last time I checked out their webcast.

    At any rate I think I'll try painting my next project there high res or not because of the real-time feedback. Seems what I was looking for since forever.
  • Damian Nachman
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    Damian Nachman polycounter lvl 4
    dr grim wrote: »
    Quick side question, Quack: Have you tested the transparency in Substance Painter? Marmoset's isn't up to snuff and the makers agree last time I checked out their webcast.

    At any rate I think I'll try painting my next project there high res or not because of the real-time feedback. Seems what I was looking for since forever.

    No transparency in Substance Desinger/Painter.
    At least not with pbr.
  • dr grim
    MeshPotato wrote: »
    No transparency in Substance Desinger/Painter.
    At least not with pbr.

    Crapola. Have they said anything about it? I dream of the days when I can do low poly hair strands overlapping and seeing proper transparency.

    Anyways thx for letting me know, MeshPotato.

    PD: Sorry for slightly derailing the thread.
  • Quack!
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    Quack! polycounter lvl 13
    dr grim wrote: »
    Quick side question, Quack: Have you tested the transparency in Substance Painter? Marmoset's isn't up to snuff and the makers agree last time I checked out their webcast.

    At any rate I think I'll try painting my next project there high res or not because of the real-time feedback. Seems what I was looking for since forever.

    I haven't messed with painter sorry! But looks like Mesh got you the answer. No worries about the question, if you got an answer out of it, I am glad it could be facilitated here.
  • Quack!
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    Quack! polycounter lvl 13
    Arc Gun Low 1st pass. Will optimize it more as I uv.

    114tiTf
  • Quack!
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    Quack! polycounter lvl 13
    Bake first pass. There are a few small errors I need to fix, and I can eek out about 20% more pixel density with another UV packing pass.

    Bonus: Low poly wires!

    1zG92Wh

    1wLlFgp
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