I know people who just contacted me or others thru linkedin. Yeah it sounds weird to contact totally random people, but many of them are actually quite helpful when they realize you're a motivated but junior artist. Humble attitude helps.
Sure, ain't not the same as personally knowing people, but you got to start somewhere.
I had people contact me about working in China. And no, I won't fast track them to our HR. But I will give tips on what we're looking for, which strengths should be there and how it is to live here. Helping people to understand what is expected of them doesn't just help them, it also helps whoever hires them because they're just better prepared.
Great post, Mark. Curious how experience factors into that.
Ha, yea I thought of that after posting but decided not to edit the post. Here's why:
Experience filters into talent and is on display in their portfolio.
The art will stand or fall on its own without a title propping it up. If it needs the title to make an impact it is probably too weak to be in the persons portfolio. Especially if the game logo overtakes the art in their beauty renders, heh.
I personally think that someone could have nothing but personal projects in their portfolio and have it look like it all went in a game, technical specs, unwraps, materials, sculpts will all be good clues, they could even have it sitting in an engine. Bottom line, good art stands alone and the experience shines through that good art, if its displayed correctly.
Experience also filters into contacts.
One other reason contacts matter is because I now have people I know and trust telling me this person knows what they're doing.
I'm still going to crawl up into their skull and ask a bunch of questions but I feel more confident that they will have the right answers and aren't going to waste my time. I'll check them out before I head down the list just because that added confidence is there.
Experience lets me know:
That they went through at least one semi-rigorous hiring process and survived.
They've gotten a taste of production art and didn't run away screaming.
They probably aren't going to get all butt-hurt when they screw up and need to fix it.
But I can get a sense of those things by talking to the person and they don't necessarily need a shipped title to answer those questions correctly.
Semi-rhetorical question to the OP: Q: If contacts don't matter, why do almost all jobs on the planet require some form of references? (this is kind of what I think you where trying to get at originally?)
A: I trust someone to be what they say they are. But that trust needs to be verified before it can grow. The better the verification and the faster I get it, the faster I will come to the understanding that I can indeed depend on this particular person.
That is the main question employers are asking, can I trust and depend on this person?
Contacts, references and being able to talk to people who have worked with the person all go a long way in answering that central question. True, in this industry art trumps a lot of things and is VERY important but it isn't the only thing.
I have been summoned! Though I'm a bit late to the party.
technically, having connections does help you get a job.
but at the same time it doesn´t, because you know that.
It's entirely self-defeating by trying to make "having connections" sound like it's a bad thing, as though it's sleazy or immoral. Having a connection means knowing a guy or having a friend. If I got introduced to a contract or a job from a friend, isn't that a good thing? I get to work with my friend and the company gets what they need. That's awesome! The same works in reverse. If a buddy of mine needs an artist for something, I'll hit up my friends and see who's free that could do it. This is how companies start up, dude.
It *can* help. You can't get a job without talent, and having connections makes it easier for other people to see your talent. Neither is a replacement of the other. I don't buy the "it makes you lazy" argument for an instant.
Your proposal comes down to this weird assertion that some people are trying to spend more time meeting people and making contacts to try to get a job instead of trying to work on their skills and improve. Do people like that really exist? heh. If they do, who cares? They'll spiral into irrelevance as others improve themselves and develop their skills.
Every job and contract I've ever gotten (35 projects over 12 years now) has been the result of someone I knew recommending me for something, or me offering to help a friend working on something I thought was cool. I have a rather larger than average network of game developers and artists because I've spent my entire career making friends with artists I think are cool and that I respect. I like following their work, I like keeping up with them, I like hanging out online and in person, and I like introducing people to each other when I think they'll get along. I never saw it as a replacement for skill or talent... I just like meeting cool people. The more I know, the more I can help cool people meet other cool people, the cooler things seem to happen for everybody. That's how I look at it.
I agree with everyone else in here, especially Mark's post.
Your proposal comes down to this weird assertion that some people are trying to spend more time meeting people and making contacts to try to get a job instead of trying to work on their skills and improve. Do people like that really exist?
now that is basically the problem here.
for you veterans all those things are given, you know how the game works.
the initial reason why i made this thread is that i´ve frequently seen this advice beeing given to newcomers, although their priorities should be aligned differently with a focus on their skill.
once they get into the industry by getting their skills an a competative level, networking starts to gain importance.
so yeah this is targeted at people that may spend their time making contacts instead of focusing on their skills because they don´t know any better yet.
so yeah this is targeted at people that may spend their time making contacts instead of focusing on their skills because they don´t know any better yet.
Even if someone isn't focusing on their art and is too busy making connections, do you think that those connections they make are going to recommend them if their art is substandard? Nope. I've had plenty of friends from college try to contact me about working at the company I'm at, and there have been times I've been honest with them and told them that they need to work on their portfolio more, or focus more on this or that. No matter how many times we've gone out and grabbed a beer or whatever, I wouldn't bring in anyone or recommend anyone to HR or my boss if I didn't truly believe they would work well with us. Hurts my reputation at the company in the long run. I would imagine that's the same at any company that's worth a damn.
once they get into the industry by getting their skills an a competative level, networking starts to gain importance.
Where are you seeing this advice? Who's giving it? Who's using it like you say?
Networking is always important, at any time, at any level. Game dev is a meritocracy to some degree, and you can't get in it unless you have skills enough for someone to see you as employable. This is self-correcting.
once they get into the industry by getting their skills an a competative level, networking starts to gain importance.
I don't think that's right. Networking isn't just for people already in. It's for even people who do it as a hobby. I think you trivialize the role that networking can play in an artists life. Networking helps people grow in their craft, it's a natural connection that forms when you share an interest with someone else.
Like Jon said, you just end up connected to other people and not necessarily by being in close proximity and... rubbing your keyboard all over their face... You can link up through facebook IM or even this site and meet people who share your interests and as you guys pal around and share tips, tricks, jokes and art, you also share opportunities. Getting to know local people through local events is great too. You shouldn't stick to just people who do what you want to do, get to know anyone and everyone. Get to know other people looking to break in at some point they might and there could be another opening.
Getting to know local people through local events is great too. You shouldn't stick to just people who do what you want to do, get to know anyone and everyone and be a decent human being and see what happens.
Exactly. I suspect "having connections" and "networking" in the context he's creating only means going to networking events and student fairs.
Exactly. I suspect "having connections" and "networking" in the context he's creating only means going to networking events and student fairs.
yeah... that's a very narrow view of networking. Networking is a two way street and people who view it as a one way street tend to get confused why half the traffic is flowing in the wrong direction.
Typically at "networking" events everyone is only looking to take away and not give anything in return so the networking doesn't go too far. They want a job and they only care about maintaining leads when they should be relaxing, making friends and connecting to other people who share the same interests (outside of getting a job).
once they get into the industry by getting their skills an a competative level, networking starts to gain importance.
I disagree. I would argue that my skills were at a "competitive level" for quite some time...but ultimately the right opportunity and the right connections is what it took for me to break in.
Its not a black and white process. Being a great artist does not neccesarily mean youll get a job. Theres hundreds of equally great artists gunning for the same exact job you are.
Being a fisherman is hard career to get in to because it all depends on the networking.
Think about it and laugh or not , the choice is yours
I'm sure if you're working on one of them big trawlers like you see on T.V. there's plenty of 'yes, I know a guy'. I doubt they hire fishermen off of linkedin. :thumbup:
my first job was kind of rough since i had no connections, but ever since, the jobs i took had at least some kind of connections involved with either a friend or a friend's friend.
nobody got me in like the "fast track" line in Disney Land, but had it not been connections, I wouldn't know what position's open or which company to apply. you should expect your skills to land you the job, but the connections to show you where to land.
I think marketing your art, making sure it gets seen is way more important. It get`s you noticed by the right people and only requires working your ass off
I have been summoned! Though I'm a bit late to the party.
It's entirely self-defeating by trying to make "having connections" sound like it's a bad thing, as though it's sleazy or immoral. Having a connection means knowing a guy or having a friend. If I got introduced to a contract or a job from a friend, isn't that a good thing? I get to work with my friend and the company gets what they need. That's awesome! The same works in reverse. If a buddy of mine needs an artist for something, I'll hit up my friends and see who's free that could do it. This is how companies start up, dude.
It *can* help. You can't get a job without talent, and having connections makes it easier for other people to see your talent. Neither is a replacement of the other. I don't buy the "it makes you lazy" argument for an instant.
Your proposal comes down to this weird assertion that some people are trying to spend more time meeting people and making contacts to try to get a job instead of trying to work on their skills and improve. Do people like that really exist? heh. If they do, who cares? They'll spiral into irrelevance as others improve themselves and develop their skills.
Every job and contract I've ever gotten (35 projects over 12 years now) has been the result of someone I knew recommending me for something, or me offering to help a friend working on something I thought was cool. I have a rather larger than average network of game developers and artists because I've spent my entire career making friends with artists I think are cool and that I respect. I like following their work, I like keeping up with them, I like hanging out online and in person, and I like introducing people to each other when I think they'll get along. I never saw it as a replacement for skill or talent... I just like meeting cool people. The more I know, the more I can help cool people meet other cool people, the cooler things seem to happen for everybody. That's how I look at it.
I agree with everyone else in here, especially Mark's post.
Great post Jon, I totally agree. The notion that somehow working on your art skills and networking are mutually exclusive is just absurd.
For instance, one of the best things you can do to improve is network and interact with other artists to get their feedback. Its really one of the easiest ways out there to network, post your work for feedback, and give feedback to other artists on polycount. Anyone posting on polycount already has the time to do this(or you wouldn't be posting in the first place), and it will improve your networking abilities as well as your artistic abilities.
now that is basically the problem here.
for you veterans all those things are given, you know how the game works.
the initial reason why i made this thread is that i´ve frequently seen this advice beeing given to newcomers, although their priorities should be aligned differently with a focus on their skill.
once they get into the industry by getting their skills an a competative level, networking starts to gain importance.
so yeah this is targeted at people that may spend their time making contacts instead of focusing on their skills because they don´t know any better yet.
Honestly this is just really bad advice. Networking is often much more important for artists who have not yet broken into the industry. Inexperienced artists should go out of their way to network with people, get some name recognition, etc. Its less important (but still very important) for more established and experienced artists, who generally have a decent "network circle" already.
So yeah, my advice would be the complete opposite of what you're suggesting.
But again, I don't see networking as something that is robbing time from improving your art skills. In most cases networking, creating contacts and interacting with other humans is essential to any sort of personal growth. Rarely is it productive to lock yourself in your basement and cut off all contact to the outside world.
Even just posting on Polycount is networking. I've PM'd a few people here with job opportunities
Yeah, an active internet presence is probably the simplest form of networking you can do.
You don't have to break out the yellowpages and start cold calling people to network.
So, expanding on this concept a little, here are some great ways you can network simply by posting on the internet.
Post your art in pimping, interact with people when they critique it - show off your skills and your ability to take criticism
Post critiques for other artists in pimping - show off your knowledge
Post questions in tech talk when you hit road blocks, carry through with threads and post if you've found a solution to your own problem - show resourcefulness and a will to learn new things
Post responses to other people's questions in tech talk, show your knowledge again
Write tutorials, research a topic to improve your abilities, and then document it and share it with others - shows off expert knowledge and communication skills
So all of this stuff that is generally "posting on the internet" is networking, and you're showcasing certain job skills when you post on polycount. Keep that in mind when you post so you can maximize that networking potential.
The way I have seen networking work is that you have a sort of "graduating class" for the years you are learning, where everyone is a noob and you help each other get better. Years later all those noobs are well placed, working on major projects at big studios.
I found contests and colabs to be especially awesome at building friendships and connections.
I read the thesis in the OP and not the rest of the thread, so forgive me -- I'm sure someone already said this: I make art for art's sake, and knowing people doesn't reduce my drive to make something really good.
Replies
Sure, ain't not the same as personally knowing people, but you got to start somewhere.
I had people contact me about working in China. And no, I won't fast track them to our HR. But I will give tips on what we're looking for, which strengths should be there and how it is to live here. Helping people to understand what is expected of them doesn't just help them, it also helps whoever hires them because they're just better prepared.
thats my philosophy............failing on both haha
Loser :poly124:
Experience filters into talent and is on display in their portfolio.
The art will stand or fall on its own without a title propping it up. If it needs the title to make an impact it is probably too weak to be in the persons portfolio. Especially if the game logo overtakes the art in their beauty renders, heh.
I personally think that someone could have nothing but personal projects in their portfolio and have it look like it all went in a game, technical specs, unwraps, materials, sculpts will all be good clues, they could even have it sitting in an engine. Bottom line, good art stands alone and the experience shines through that good art, if its displayed correctly.
Experience also filters into contacts.
One other reason contacts matter is because I now have people I know and trust telling me this person knows what they're doing.
I'm still going to crawl up into their skull and ask a bunch of questions but I feel more confident that they will have the right answers and aren't going to waste my time. I'll check them out before I head down the list just because that added confidence is there.
Experience lets me know:
- That they went through at least one semi-rigorous hiring process and survived.
- They've gotten a taste of production art and didn't run away screaming.
- They probably aren't going to get all butt-hurt when they screw up and need to fix it.
But I can get a sense of those things by talking to the person and they don't necessarily need a shipped title to answer those questions correctly.Semi-rhetorical question to the OP:
Q: If contacts don't matter, why do almost all jobs on the planet require some form of references?
(this is kind of what I think you where trying to get at originally?)
A: I trust someone to be what they say they are. But that trust needs to be verified before it can grow. The better the verification and the faster I get it, the faster I will come to the understanding that I can indeed depend on this particular person.
That is the main question employers are asking, can I trust and depend on this person?
Contacts, references and being able to talk to people who have worked with the person all go a long way in answering that central question. True, in this industry art trumps a lot of things and is VERY important but it isn't the only thing.
It's entirely self-defeating by trying to make "having connections" sound like it's a bad thing, as though it's sleazy or immoral. Having a connection means knowing a guy or having a friend. If I got introduced to a contract or a job from a friend, isn't that a good thing? I get to work with my friend and the company gets what they need. That's awesome! The same works in reverse. If a buddy of mine needs an artist for something, I'll hit up my friends and see who's free that could do it. This is how companies start up, dude.
It *can* help. You can't get a job without talent, and having connections makes it easier for other people to see your talent. Neither is a replacement of the other. I don't buy the "it makes you lazy" argument for an instant.
Your proposal comes down to this weird assertion that some people are trying to spend more time meeting people and making contacts to try to get a job instead of trying to work on their skills and improve. Do people like that really exist? heh. If they do, who cares? They'll spiral into irrelevance as others improve themselves and develop their skills.
Every job and contract I've ever gotten (35 projects over 12 years now) has been the result of someone I knew recommending me for something, or me offering to help a friend working on something I thought was cool. I have a rather larger than average network of game developers and artists because I've spent my entire career making friends with artists I think are cool and that I respect. I like following their work, I like keeping up with them, I like hanging out online and in person, and I like introducing people to each other when I think they'll get along. I never saw it as a replacement for skill or talent... I just like meeting cool people. The more I know, the more I can help cool people meet other cool people, the cooler things seem to happen for everybody. That's how I look at it.
I agree with everyone else in here, especially Mark's post.
now that is basically the problem here.
for you veterans all those things are given, you know how the game works.
the initial reason why i made this thread is that i´ve frequently seen this advice beeing given to newcomers, although their priorities should be aligned differently with a focus on their skill.
once they get into the industry by getting their skills an a competative level, networking starts to gain importance.
so yeah this is targeted at people that may spend their time making contacts instead of focusing on their skills because they don´t know any better yet.
Even if someone isn't focusing on their art and is too busy making connections, do you think that those connections they make are going to recommend them if their art is substandard? Nope. I've had plenty of friends from college try to contact me about working at the company I'm at, and there have been times I've been honest with them and told them that they need to work on their portfolio more, or focus more on this or that. No matter how many times we've gone out and grabbed a beer or whatever, I wouldn't bring in anyone or recommend anyone to HR or my boss if I didn't truly believe they would work well with us. Hurts my reputation at the company in the long run. I would imagine that's the same at any company that's worth a damn.
Where are you seeing this advice? Who's giving it? Who's using it like you say?
Networking is always important, at any time, at any level. Game dev is a meritocracy to some degree, and you can't get in it unless you have skills enough for someone to see you as employable. This is self-correcting.
Like Jon said, you just end up connected to other people and not necessarily by being in close proximity and... rubbing your keyboard all over their face... You can link up through facebook IM or even this site and meet people who share your interests and as you guys pal around and share tips, tricks, jokes and art, you also share opportunities. Getting to know local people through local events is great too. You shouldn't stick to just people who do what you want to do, get to know anyone and everyone. Get to know other people looking to break in at some point they might and there could be another opening.
Be a decent human being and see what happens.
Exactly. I suspect "having connections" and "networking" in the context he's creating only means going to networking events and student fairs.
Think about it and laugh or not , the choice is yours
Typically at "networking" events everyone is only looking to take away and not give anything in return so the networking doesn't go too far. They want a job and they only care about maintaining leads when they should be relaxing, making friends and connecting to other people who share the same interests (outside of getting a job).
Its not a black and white process. Being a great artist does not neccesarily mean youll get a job. Theres hundreds of equally great artists gunning for the same exact job you are.
I'm sure if you're working on one of them big trawlers like you see on T.V. there's plenty of 'yes, I know a guy'. I doubt they hire fishermen off of linkedin. :thumbup:
ask people to 'hook' up some time. OK I AM GOING
nobody got me in like the "fast track" line in Disney Land, but had it not been connections, I wouldn't know what position's open or which company to apply. you should expect your skills to land you the job, but the connections to show you where to land.
Starfish.
Great post Jon, I totally agree. The notion that somehow working on your art skills and networking are mutually exclusive is just absurd.
For instance, one of the best things you can do to improve is network and interact with other artists to get their feedback. Its really one of the easiest ways out there to network, post your work for feedback, and give feedback to other artists on polycount. Anyone posting on polycount already has the time to do this(or you wouldn't be posting in the first place), and it will improve your networking abilities as well as your artistic abilities.
Honestly this is just really bad advice. Networking is often much more important for artists who have not yet broken into the industry. Inexperienced artists should go out of their way to network with people, get some name recognition, etc. Its less important (but still very important) for more established and experienced artists, who generally have a decent "network circle" already.
So yeah, my advice would be the complete opposite of what you're suggesting.
But again, I don't see networking as something that is robbing time from improving your art skills. In most cases networking, creating contacts and interacting with other humans is essential to any sort of personal growth. Rarely is it productive to lock yourself in your basement and cut off all contact to the outside world.
Yeah, an active internet presence is probably the simplest form of networking you can do.
You don't have to break out the yellowpages and start cold calling people to network.
So, expanding on this concept a little, here are some great ways you can network simply by posting on the internet.
So all of this stuff that is generally "posting on the internet" is networking, and you're showcasing certain job skills when you post on polycount. Keep that in mind when you post so you can maximize that networking potential.
I found contests and colabs to be especially awesome at building friendships and connections.
I read the thesis in the OP and not the rest of the thread, so forgive me -- I'm sure someone already said this: I make art for art's sake, and knowing people doesn't reduce my drive to make something really good.