they should just make it so that in order to even buy a gun, you need:
1. a psychiatric exam, showing you're of sound mind.
2. a police or military "training day" style course, where you're taught what guns really are.
turns out he snapped when he found out his mom was petitioning to get him treated
WOW LOOK ALL LOGIC OUT THE WINDOW HERE, PEOPLE WITH MENTAL PROBLEMS DONT LIKE BEING TREATED, WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGH?!
Personally I wouldn't like to be treated if I was insane, id feel like im being alienated and would feel even more different and messed up
Isn't that part of the problem with society? In our society you can't have a mental issue without feeling more alienated, different, and messed up? Isn't that in itself very messed up? We need to treat mental issues better and not look down on those people. Also if the idea of treatment was a trigger, any self reflecting or traumatic experience could of set them off. Treatment isn't the cause of the shooting. Having mental issues in the first place was the main cause.
1. Your roommate is insane and you're not aware
2. people who buy them usually have shot them before, there arent as many accidents with guns as you would think given the amount of them in the US
And they do require those things, but some gun stores get away with not asking for the health records just to make a sale. The US isn't walk into walmart and buy your first gun and walk out
1. Your roommate is insane and you're not aware
And they do require those things, but some gun stores get away with not asking for the health records just to make a sale. The US isn't walk into walmart and buy your first gun and walk out
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Indiana
No permits required for ownership until Concealed Carry or Open Carry, you can purchase one if "Firearms dealers or private individuals may not sell any firearm to someone less than 18 years old, or less than 23 years old if the buyer was "adjudicated a delinquent child for an act that would be a felony if committed by an adult", or to a person who is mentally incompetent or is a drug or alcohol abuser."
No mental health check, no gun safety course. No criminal record check or family history mental illness check.
13 pages in and you're all still arguing about guns and how to get them out of the hands of just about everybody. I've hardly read one word about making changes to prevent people from getting violent in the first place. You're just as obsessed with gun control as the pro-gun people are about gun possession. That's why we have a gun violence problem in America, we're all obsessed with guns on both sides and gripped with irrational fear of them.
Nobody talks about dealing the real cause of these tragedies, you just go on and on how we have to get the guns out of these people's hands. Alright, we get it. I think you've beat that horse to death. Can we move on and deal with the social issues that cause violence in general? The solutions to that are what's really going to reduce violence.
I'll start. How do you think poverty affects violence like this and how can that be changed?
13 pages in and you're all still arguing about guns and how to get them out of the hands of just about everybody. I've hardly read one word about making changes to prevent people from getting violent in the first place. You're just as obsessed with gun control as the pro-gun people are about gun possession. Nobody talks about dealing the real cause of these tragedies, you just go on and on how we have to get the guns out of these people's hands. Alright, we get it. I think you've beat that horse to death. Can we move on and deal with the social issues that cause violence in general? The solutions to that are what's really going to reduce violence.
I'll start. How do you think poverty affects violence like this and how can that be changed?
It doesn't. All of the shootings have been in middle to upper class areas by middle to upper class people. If that's poverty, then I'm living in a slum right now. For whatever reason, mass shootings like this don't happen in the worst areas of town where all of the poverty is.
It doesn't. All of the shootings have been in middle to upper class areas by middle to upper class people. If that's poverty, then I'm living in a slum right now. For whatever reason, mass shootings like this don't happen in the worst areas of town where all of the poverty is.
So gun violence doesn't occur in impoverished communities? That's all I'm saying.
God forbid they would show photos of the victims in happier times, but nope not with our sick and twisted media. Gotta show the shooter. We have to give them the limelight they want. The innocent people? Forget them, but we always remember the shooter.
As with any recent shooting, we'll know far more about the shooter and his family life than we will about the innocent people who lost their lives or were affected by the event. If you want to start somewhere, start by putting a gag order on the news outlets from overly discussing the shooter, their guns, their tactics, etc.
13 pages in and you're all still arguing about guns and how to get them out of the hands of just about everybody. I've hardly read one word about making changes to prevent people from getting violent in the first place.
So gun violence doesn't occur in impoverished communities? That's all I'm saying.
It does, but not mass shootings and not in overly public places like schools/ theaters. places of work, etc. And it is usually gang/drug related. You are trying to compare inner city violence to mass murdering psychos.
is patently ridiculous. End inequality, mental illness, and CORRUPTION? Good luck with that one. FAR easier to do something about gun accessibility.
You're taking my point to an illogical extreme and running with it. Of course you can't eliminate it, end it, or remove it form society, but you can make a better effort than the pathetic one we do now to minimize its effects on society.
You're taking my point to an illogical extreme and running with it. Of course you can't eliminate it, end it, or remove it form society, but you can make a better effort than the pathetic one we do now to minimize its effects on society.
You took your own point to an illogical extreme I afraid; by saying 'solve'. I'm afraid there was no way I could derive 'try to reduce' from that.
Hitler had it right (Other than the whole Holocaust thing). The idea of sterilizing certain genetic disorders to make them far less prevalent in future generations of society was a great idea.
Id rather be told im not allowed to have children then to have one and see him/her die young and have to go through that. Or to go crazy and cause something like this.
It does, but not mass shootings and not in overly public places like schools/ theaters. places of work, etc. And it is usually gang/drug related. You are trying to compare inner city violence to mass murdering psychos.
Yes, but they all come from that same seed of violence. It's that seed we need to focus on. Like that link Mark posted, it infects people like a disease and spreads like an epidemic. Instead of dealing with the infection of violence, we jump all over the cough that comes with it.
And the mentally ill could get more help if we wouldn't stigmatize them so much and make it easier to seek help without feeling ashamed nor outcast.
And there's the victims of violence. This will seriously affect them. The infection of violence will surely be passed on to them in some way. That's another aspect of this tragedy that people probably don't think about. What will the families change in their lives as a result of losing their child in this way? They might be more prone to taking a greater stance on defending their family from such threats in the future that might result in future violence.
they should just make it so that in order to even buy a gun, you need:
1. a psychiatric exam, showing you're of sound mind.
2. a police or military "training day" style course, where you're taught what guns really are.
I don't want to jump into this issue, but just to spread some information -- that's pretty close to how the law already is in CT.
Certificate of Eligibility for Pistol or Revolver required to purchase handguns. Applicants must complete an approved handgun safety course, and pass a NICS background check prior to issuance of certificate. Certificate of Eligibility valid for five years. There is a 14-day waiting period for the purchase of long guns, with exceptions for peace officers, Active-Duty military members, and holders of carry permits and hunting licenses.
Additionally, here's a perspective by a man I can never decide whether I should respect or not -- gun control advocate, new york mayor, and bilionare Micheal Bloomberg:
they should just make it so that in order to even buy a gun, you need:
1. a psychiatric exam, showing you're of sound mind.
2. a police or military "training day" style course, where you're taught what guns really are.
It wouldn't have made a difference in this scenario though. His mom was the one that bought the weapons. And she was very familiar with how to use them (and taught her son). He didn't own any of the weapons.
Not that I disagree with your recommendations though. Just pointing out they they wouldn't have changed the outcome.
The media tries their best to conceal? Video games are one of the first things referenced. Fucking retard.
You know, I was hoping the NRA would come out with something about recognizing the signs of mental illness, and that gun laws would not have changed this. Instead, you get them trying to shift focus in another direction, which is just as pointless as blaming the guns.
The only thing the media does is put these negative events first in our minds and make us afraid. They fill people with negativity and fear so that we buy into the propaganda, the advertising, and follow the political leaders that promise us a false sense of safety. We're a nation of quivering babies cowering in the corner with our guns because the media makes us so crazy and scared of everything that's the least bit different. That's why we're so damn violent. We're scared shit-less of each other and we all buy guns because we're afraid someone is coming to rape, rob, and kill us; we live under the belief that we're surrounded by monsters out to get us, both domestic and foreign. Fear is a path to violence and America is ripe with it.
media outlets such as FOX "news" that does 80% of the fear mongering and war mongering and are in bed with gun profiteers like NRA.
it goes hand in hand. FOX promotes fear, and NRA promotes guns to "deal" with that fear.
in reality, there isnt much to fear in this country. people here have it real good and grow up in a sheltered self centered culture knowing very little if anything about anyone else around the world. any one who has ever lived in a third world country knows that. the fear you talk about is all propaganda perpetuated by organizations like NRA just to sell more guns.
i find it funny that NRA talks a lot about guns = freedom and yet in this latest news conference Mr. Wayne Lapierre suggests there should be cops in every school from now on to provide safety!
how retarded is it when same person who talks about freedom advocated turning this country into a bigger police state that it is right now.
the way i see it, this country is getting divided into two major groups of people. the extremely logical and rational people and the extremely retarded, religious, fundamentalist extremists.
The main issue in the US (from a european pov) is that I think it's too late to ban guns. There are too many out there already, and banning gun sales will just slow the proliferation but it will not destroy the million guns that are already in pretty much every home. It's kind of a lost cause.
We can however make things better by not allowing kids in shooting ranges, banning large capacity ammo and limit the amount of guns one can possess to 1 or 2. It won't stop violence but it may reduce a bit its consequences.
media outlets such as FOX "news" that does 80% of the fear mongering and war mongering and are in bed with gun profiteers like NRA.
it goes hand in hand. FOX promotes fear, and NRA promotes guns to "deal" with that fear.
in reality, there isnt much to fear in this country. people here have it real good and grow up in a sheltered self centered culture knowing very little if anything about anyone else around the world. any one who has ever lived in a third world country knows that. the fear you talk about is all propaganda perpetuated by organizations like NRA just to sell more guns.
i find it funny that NRA talks a lot about guns = freedom and yet in this latest news conference Mr. Wayne Lapierre suggests there should be cops in every school from now on to provide safety!
how retarded is it when same person who talks about freedom advocated turning this country into a bigger police state that it is right now.
the way i see it, this country is getting divided into two major groups of people. the extremely logical and rational people and the extremely retarded, religious, fundamentalist extremists.
The propaganda they sell is crafted to scare people into being amenable to whatever political views they find favorable. If guns are part of their agenda, then that's what they do. Fear has been known to be an effective tool to control people and get them to do things an otherwise rational person would never do.
That's an interesting dichotomy you've set up there. Which are you? The thing about absolutist statements like that is that they are invariably false. You're polarizing the issue into two groups: your side and the side that's wrong. That's rather arrogant and a recipe for disaster. It's guaranteed to shut people down and get them to stop listening to you.
That's an interesting dichotomy you've set up there. Which are you? The thing about absolutist statements like that is that they are invariably false. You're polarizing the issue into two groups: your side and the side that's wrong. That's rather arrogant and a recipe for disaster. It's guaranteed to shut people down and get them to stop listening to you.
if there are really that many people who think like that then i think it is not arrogant at all to state a fact that there are a whole lot of stupid people among us and they are they are the kind of people that the media and NRA prey on.
however, I said it is getting divided. Lot of people are confused and are in center. But i see less and less people in center compared to 10 years ago.
Organizations like NRA preaches to the same mass of people who would ban evolution from being taught in schools or any other science topics that doesnt agree with their fundamentalist views. They would not want to hear about statistics or science or facts.
I don't care. It's clear you have an agenda, just the same as Faux News does. They want to stir up fear and get middle class whites to hate the poor and brown people. They also want them to support the misogynistic leaders that will drive this country into austerity.
You want a superficial solution to a much more complex problem with a deeper root issue because you think it will make it go away, but it won't. You call anyone that doesn't ascribe to your logic a gun nut or ignorant. You peddle fear that if we don't get rid of the guns, we'll see more death and massacre.
As far as I'm concerned, both are two sides of the same fear mongering coin.
I don't want to take sides. I want to address the reasons this stuff happens and respond to it objectively. More guns won't help. Less guns won't help either. We need to educate people about these issues. People need to better understand mental health, violence, and fear. They also need to be better trained in fire arms safety. Fire arms safety training should be part of public education IMHO. You don't even need to touch a fire arm to do the training. I took it myself. Even though I don't own any firearms, I'm glad that I know how to handle one if I ever needed to.
The proper response to tragedies like these is education.
The proper response to tragedies like these is education.
i agree with you 100% on that. the way i see it, gun control is a very short term fix to a problem that is very complex.
i believe more restrictive gun access would help us to slow down on killing each other while we work on all the other social, psychological and educational issues. just focusing on one or the other wont work.
Replies
1. a psychiatric exam, showing you're of sound mind.
2. a police or military "training day" style course, where you're taught what guns really are.
Isn't that part of the problem with society? In our society you can't have a mental issue without feeling more alienated, different, and messed up? Isn't that in itself very messed up? We need to treat mental issues better and not look down on those people. Also if the idea of treatment was a trigger, any self reflecting or traumatic experience could of set them off. Treatment isn't the cause of the shooting. Having mental issues in the first place was the main cause.
2. people who buy them usually have shot them before, there arent as many accidents with guns as you would think given the amount of them in the US
And they do require those things, but some gun stores get away with not asking for the health records just to make a sale. The US isn't walk into walmart and buy your first gun and walk out
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Indiana
No permits required for ownership until Concealed Carry or Open Carry, you can purchase one if "Firearms dealers or private individuals may not sell any firearm to someone less than 18 years old, or less than 23 years old if the buyer was "adjudicated a delinquent child for an act that would be a felony if committed by an adult", or to a person who is mentally incompetent or is a drug or alcohol abuser."
No mental health check, no gun safety course. No criminal record check or family history mental illness check.
Nobody talks about dealing the real cause of these tragedies, you just go on and on how we have to get the guns out of these people's hands. Alright, we get it. I think you've beat that horse to death. Can we move on and deal with the social issues that cause violence in general? The solutions to that are what's really going to reduce violence.
I'll start. How do you think poverty affects violence like this and how can that be changed?
It doesn't. All of the shootings have been in middle to upper class areas by middle to upper class people. If that's poverty, then I'm living in a slum right now. For whatever reason, mass shootings like this don't happen in the worst areas of town where all of the poverty is.
So gun violence doesn't occur in impoverished communities? That's all I'm saying.
God forbid they would show photos of the victims in happier times, but nope not with our sick and twisted media. Gotta show the shooter. We have to give them the limelight they want. The innocent people? Forget them, but we always remember the shooter.
As with any recent shooting, we'll know far more about the shooter and his family life than we will about the innocent people who lost their lives or were affected by the event. If you want to start somewhere, start by putting a gag order on the news outlets from overly discussing the shooter, their guns, their tactics, etc.
Because this:
is patently ridiculous. End inequality, mental illness, and CORRUPTION? Good luck with that one. FAR easier to do something about gun accessibility.
It does, but not mass shootings and not in overly public places like schools/ theaters. places of work, etc. And it is usually gang/drug related. You are trying to compare inner city violence to mass murdering psychos.
You're taking my point to an illogical extreme and running with it. Of course you can't eliminate it, end it, or remove it form society, but you can make a better effort than the pathetic one we do now to minimize its effects on society.
You took your own point to an illogical extreme I afraid; by saying 'solve'. I'm afraid there was no way I could derive 'try to reduce' from that.
Id rather be told im not allowed to have children then to have one and see him/her die young and have to go through that. Or to go crazy and cause something like this.
Yes, but they all come from that same seed of violence. It's that seed we need to focus on. Like that link Mark posted, it infects people like a disease and spreads like an epidemic. Instead of dealing with the infection of violence, we jump all over the cough that comes with it.
And the mentally ill could get more help if we wouldn't stigmatize them so much and make it easier to seek help without feeling ashamed nor outcast.
And there's the victims of violence. This will seriously affect them. The infection of violence will surely be passed on to them in some way. That's another aspect of this tragedy that people probably don't think about. What will the families change in their lives as a result of losing their child in this way? They might be more prone to taking a greater stance on defending their family from such threats in the future that might result in future violence.
@Andreas
Fine, whatever. You're right. I'm not interested in arguing minituae.
@frell
And Godwin's law rears its ugly head.
I don't want to jump into this issue, but just to spread some information -- that's pretty close to how the law already is in CT.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Connecticut
Additionally, here's a perspective by a man I can never decide whether I should respect or not -- gun control advocate, new york mayor, and bilionare Micheal Bloomberg:
http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/12697
It wouldn't have made a difference in this scenario though. His mom was the one that bought the weapons. And she was very familiar with how to use them (and taught her son). He didn't own any of the weapons.
Not that I disagree with your recommendations though. Just pointing out they they wouldn't have changed the outcome.
http://kotaku.com/5970484/the-nras-absolutely-unhinged-response-to-newtown-blames-a-10+year-old-flash-game
You know, I was hoping the NRA would come out with something about recognizing the signs of mental illness, and that gun laws would not have changed this. Instead, you get them trying to shift focus in another direction, which is just as pointless as blaming the guns.
it goes hand in hand. FOX promotes fear, and NRA promotes guns to "deal" with that fear.
in reality, there isnt much to fear in this country. people here have it real good and grow up in a sheltered self centered culture knowing very little if anything about anyone else around the world. any one who has ever lived in a third world country knows that. the fear you talk about is all propaganda perpetuated by organizations like NRA just to sell more guns.
i find it funny that NRA talks a lot about guns = freedom and yet in this latest news conference Mr. Wayne Lapierre suggests there should be cops in every school from now on to provide safety!
how retarded is it when same person who talks about freedom advocated turning this country into a bigger police state that it is right now.
the way i see it, this country is getting divided into two major groups of people. the extremely logical and rational people and the extremely retarded, religious, fundamentalist extremists.
We can however make things better by not allowing kids in shooting ranges, banning large capacity ammo and limit the amount of guns one can possess to 1 or 2. It won't stop violence but it may reduce a bit its consequences.
The propaganda they sell is crafted to scare people into being amenable to whatever political views they find favorable. If guns are part of their agenda, then that's what they do. Fear has been known to be an effective tool to control people and get them to do things an otherwise rational person would never do.
That's an interesting dichotomy you've set up there. Which are you? The thing about absolutist statements like that is that they are invariably false. You're polarizing the issue into two groups: your side and the side that's wrong. That's rather arrogant and a recipe for disaster. It's guaranteed to shut people down and get them to stop listening to you.
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jul/27/news/la-ol-obama-pew-survey-muslim-mistake-20120727
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/03/20/how-dumb-are-we.html
just for fun:
http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/
if there are really that many people who think like that then i think it is not arrogant at all to state a fact that there are a whole lot of stupid people among us and they are they are the kind of people that the media and NRA prey on.
the result is people like this:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/12/20/mosque-arsonist-tells-court-i-only-know-what-i-hear-on-fox-news/
however, I said it is getting divided. Lot of people are confused and are in center. But i see less and less people in center compared to 10 years ago.
Organizations like NRA preaches to the same mass of people who would ban evolution from being taught in schools or any other science topics that doesnt agree with their fundamentalist views. They would not want to hear about statistics or science or facts.
I don't care. It's clear you have an agenda, just the same as Faux News does. They want to stir up fear and get middle class whites to hate the poor and brown people. They also want them to support the misogynistic leaders that will drive this country into austerity.
You want a superficial solution to a much more complex problem with a deeper root issue because you think it will make it go away, but it won't. You call anyone that doesn't ascribe to your logic a gun nut or ignorant. You peddle fear that if we don't get rid of the guns, we'll see more death and massacre.
As far as I'm concerned, both are two sides of the same fear mongering coin.
I don't want to take sides. I want to address the reasons this stuff happens and respond to it objectively. More guns won't help. Less guns won't help either. We need to educate people about these issues. People need to better understand mental health, violence, and fear. They also need to be better trained in fire arms safety. Fire arms safety training should be part of public education IMHO. You don't even need to touch a fire arm to do the training. I took it myself. Even though I don't own any firearms, I'm glad that I know how to handle one if I ever needed to.
The proper response to tragedies like these is education.
i agree with you 100% on that. the way i see it, gun control is a very short term fix to a problem that is very complex.
i believe more restrictive gun access would help us to slow down on killing each other while we work on all the other social, psychological and educational issues. just focusing on one or the other wont work.
we will have to agree to disagree there.
certain things that are very difficult to get your hands on as a civilian, such as C4, dynamites, anthrax etc. The reason is public safety.
people can also learn to be responsible users of C4, dynamites and anthrax but doesn't mean everyone should be able to buy them easily.