MM, I don't know the specifics of the incident in China, or too much about it in general due to lack of info, but I can tell you right now that the culprit could've made sure that he killed some of those children if he really wanted to with that knife. He "slashed" them when he obviously could have stabbed some of them in a vital area. Thankfully that didn't happen and those kids can live another day, though they won't be the same. I just don't like seeing people blame trivial things that had nothing to do with it for occurrences like this. As I said before, a big worry of mine is that the mother knew that this was coming and might have even bought the weapons specifically for him. But I don't want to argue, especially over something like this.
MM, I don't know the specifics of the incident in China, or too much about it in general, but I can tell you right now that the culprit could've made sure that he killed some of those children if he really wanted to with that knife. He "slashed" them when he obviously could have stabbed some of them in a vital area. Thankfully that didn't happen and those kids can live another day, though they won't be the same. I just don't like seeing people blame trivial things that had nothing to do with it for occurrences like this. As I said before, a big worry of mine is that the mother knew that this was coming and might have even bought the weapons specifically for him.
yes he could have stabbed SOME of them, not 20 kids and 8 adults. and how many mass shootings did we have in USA ?
i understand your perspective but you are literally bringing a knife to a gun fight - argument. this shooter had 3 guns, one of them being a bushmaster was in trunk of his car and not used luckily). god knows how many he could have killed if he used the bushmaster.
i just dont get why some people are so scared of gun control as if there is any chance of 2nd amendment ever being revoked.
there are crazy people all around the world. only difference is the crazies of this country have easy access to a automatic weapons capable of killing multiple people in seconds.
People need to realize that the amendments are F'ing old, and dont necessarily reflect how the world today should be... Times were VERY different, back in 1791.....
People need to realize that the amendments are F'ing old, and dont necessarily reflect how the world today should be... Times were VERY different, back in 1791.....
The speech police would like to have a word with you.
People need to realize that the amendments are F'ing old, and dont necessarily reflect how the world today should be... Times were VERY different, back in 1791.....
It's too bad we can't get people to talk about things that are actually dangerous for children, because it's too boring:
1. Road crashes: Kill 260,000 children a year and injure about 10 million. They are the leading cause of death among youths ages 10 to 19, and a leading cause of child disability.
You would need 3 shootings like this every single day, all year and you would still not catch up to deaths caused by cars.
It's too bad we can't get people to talk about things that are actually dangerous for children, because it's too boring:
1. Road crashes: Kill 260,000 children a year and injure about 10 million. They are the leading cause of death among youths ages 10 to 19, and a leading cause of child disability.
You would need 3 shootings like this every single day, all year and you would still not catch up to deaths caused by cars.
It's too bad we can't get people to talk about things that are actually dangerous for children, because it's too boring:
1. Road crashes: Kill 260,000 children a year and injure about 10 million. They are the leading cause of death among youths ages 10 to 19, and a leading cause of child disability.
You would need 3 shootings like this every single day, all year and you would still not catch up to deaths caused by cars.
FirearmIn 2009, 31,347 persons died from firearm injuries in the United States (Tables 18 and 19), accounting for 17.7% of all injury deaths that year. The two major component causes of all firearm injury deaths in 2009 were suicide (59.8%) and homicide (36.7%). Firearm injuries (all intents) decreased 1.9% from 2008 to 2009. The age-adjusted death rate for firearm suicide did not change from 2008, whereas the death rate for firearm homicide decreased 5.0% in 2009 from 2008.
Motor-vehicle trafficIn 2009, motor-vehicle traffic-related injuries resulted in 34,485 deaths, accounting for 19.5% of all injury deaths (Table 18-). The age-adjusted death rate for motor-vehicle traffic-related injuries decreased 9.8% from 12.3 per 100,000 standard population in 2008 to 11.1 in 2009.
It's too bad we can't get people to talk about things that are actually dangerous for children, because it's too boring:...
The legal age of being able to drive a car in the US is a whole other wonky issue,
..but it's hard to argue the positive aspects on the car as a whole for a working society today, and it's not hard to argue what little good weapons will do in the hands of civilians for this same working society.
Difference being those deaths are caused through accidents and the cars were not purposely used to murder said children. Complete straw man argument.
Off course gun rights people will truck out the lame "guns don't kill people argument " guns may not kill people but guns certainly allow people who want to murder others to do it on a massive scale.
Even more insane is the idea that if everyone and even the teachers had a gun they would pull out their gun, perfectly identify the perpetrator ,aim with perfect aim and stop shooter, unless however they miss, kill a bystander with their gun or accidentally shoot someone else who wasn't a shooter who just happened to take out their gun as well to try to stop the actual perp. Oh yes and when Police come to the scene off course they will easily identify the actual shooter from all the other people who pulled out their guns.
No one's talking about countermeasures... Micro drones and non-lethal robotics. Let's be smarter and create gun safe zones. A millimeter wave detection system for guns on campuses and non-lethal countermeasures like micro-security drones that deliver shocks or paralyzing chemicals. Webbing, similar to a fire sprinkler that will disable anyone carrying a weapon. Fuck anything else lets just out think gun control. Detection + disarmament.
Sadly redundant. There must be reasons why those societies generate human bombs time to time. Social pressure, puritanism, politicaly correct, trying to hard to make everyone little angels...idno, USA like China cultures seem slightly oppresive in different ways towards their inhabitants.
People need to realize that the amendments are F'ing old, and dont necessarily reflect how the world today should be... Times were VERY different, back in 1791.....
oh but when I said this on the first page it wasnt necessary and I shouldn't start
pfft
There are only two ways to fix this
#1 in theory, more guns. If each teacher in the school carried a handgun or the majority of people in the mall a few days ago carried handguns this wouldn't have happened. Shooters won't go to places where theyll be shot back at. The 2nd amendment only works if everyone takes advantage of it, and back in the 1700-1800s people did. In modern times it only makes it easier
#2 re-ban all assault rifles, and evaluate all people buying guns/already own guns every 12 months with a psych test to make sure they're still sane. Not only that but we need a 6 month wait before you actually receive your gun. In the US if one gun store says you shouldn't own a gun you can just go to another and see if they'll let you.
I know this isn't the best place to argue politics especially in such a tragic thread but the fact that this is even possible baffles me.
But seriously, seems Ryan Lanza is the brother of the gunman, so he got to know his mom and brother dying and everything crazy happening through facebook attacks on his person.
no political discussions ever turn out well here, so stick to well wishes and mourning.
Well if you are looking for a political discussion / debate I'd suggest you should join the political community.
Here we can still have a discussion but do not expect it to end well.
As for the news, I sympathize, and hope that US government comes to a positive conclusions about banning the guns or making it extremely strict to get them.
I'm betting the guy who they've wrongly identified as the shooter (s brother, actually, hurray for misinformation) feels pretty surreal right now. He innocently 'liked' the Mass Effect facebook page, and look at what has happened.
Took the words right out of my mouth. If we just helped people deal with their mental and social problems, they would be far less likely to go shoot up a school full of kids in the first place. Guns aren't the problem, people not getting the help they need is the problem.
I don't get the access to mental health care bit. Is it really that hard to get access to it? I never thought mass murders were trying to seek mental health professionals. They probably thought they were thinking VERY clearly. The idea that they were willing to seek mental health professionals indicates they're aware that something may be "wrong" with them, which I'm not too sure is that case...
Guns aren't the problem, people not getting the help they need is the problem.
if guns are not a problem at all, then why are there any gun laws at all ? why do we need a permit to buy a gun ? why cant guns be bought from vending machines ?
"this makes my stomach hurt. reports say the kids were killed execution style. Meaning they were put up against a wall or on their knees and shot in the head one by one."
if guns are not a problem at all, then why are there any gun laws at all ? why do we need a permit to buy a gun ? why cant guns be bought from vending machines ?
So I think some people may be missing the intent of the second amendment. When they wrote it the idea was that should the government ever get out of hand the people would be able to march on Washington and take back their country.
Which is exactly what they did to create America in the first place. It was a bunch of citizens with guns who fought the British. That said, we live in a completely different world now. I don't even think a bunch of non trained citizens could ever hold a candle to our police forces and millitary. We'd get stomped so hard lol.
That said I am for the right own a gun, but like all things in america I think we need reform on the issue. However... the government is notorious for coming up with poor solutions to very real problems. (like obama care..)
if guns are not a problem at all, then why are there any gun laws at all ? why do we need a permit to buy a gun ? why cant guns be bought from vending machines ?
Don't be ridiculous. Of course there are valid reasons to control access to guns (armed robbery for one), but calling for more control isn't the solution to this problem because it ignores the cause. People who are this far gone won't let laws stop them from acquiring guns, they'll just go underground to get them. It might as well be in a vending machine. If it wasn't guns, it might have been a bomb. If not a bomb, it might have been poison. The list goes on. If a crazy person puts their mind to killing people, there's no law that will stop them from attaining the means to pursue their goal. The proper solution is to prevent people like this from getting to the point that they decide to kill people. That's the realm of social and mental health. This problem isn't going to be solved by more restriction. It needs to be solved by making sure nobody else feels compelled to harm people. After all, if you can stop people from wanting to hurt others, what do you need gun control for? Gun violence is a symptom, not the cause. Social inequality, poverty, abuse, and mental illness is what drives violence, not the tools of violence themselves. People could hurt each other just fine without weapons if they had the ambition to do so.
Mental health is a difficult thing to manage. It isn't always obvious something is wrong until they are too far gone and they do something drastic. Sometimes there just aren't enough caring people in their lives to get them help. It's tricky. It's not as simple as physical health. Mental illness doesn't stick out like a wheelchair or a gap in your skull. It's internal and only shows in the person's behavior, which most people will think is just a character flaw of the person rather than a handicap. A lot of the time people just think you're a bad person and act accordingly. This tends to result in mentally ill people suffering a high rate of abuse.
Don't be ridiculous. Of course there are valid reasons to control access to guns (armed robbery for one), but calling for more control isn't the solution to this problem because it ignores the cause. People who are this far gone won't let laws stop them from acquiring guns, they'll just go underground to get them.
Exactly. Taking guns away from law-abiding citizens just gives criminals (who obviously don't follow the laws) more of an incentive to do these things. What if somebody breaks into your house with a gun? are you going to go run to the kitchen to pick up a knife to defend your family while he has a gun? are you going to keep a knife under your pillow? I was hoping this thread wouldn't turn into this debate, but it was kinda expected, but people saying that gun-control is necessary and that there should be gun control...well... no. Do I believe we should have some sort of tighter law on guns? yeah, but banning them completely is absolutely insane.
Don't be ridiculous. Of course there are valid reasons to control access to guns (armed robbery for one), but calling for more control isn't the solution to this problem because it ignores the cause. People who are this far gone won't let laws stop them from acquiring guns, they'll just go underground to get them. It might as well be in a vending machine. If it wasn't guns, it might have been a bomb. If not a bomb, it might have been poison. The list goes on. If a crazy person puts their mind to killing people, there's no law that will stop them from attaining the means to pursue their goal. The proper solution is to prevent people like this from getting to the point that they decide to kill people. That's the realm of social and mental health. This problem isn't going to be solved by more restriction. It needs to be solved by making sure nobody else feels compelled to harm people. After all, if you can stop people from wanting to hurt others, what do you need gun control for? Gun violence is a symptom, not the cause. Social inequality, poverty, abuse, and mental illness is what drives violence, not the tools of violence themselves. People could hurt each other just fine without weapons if they had the ambition to do so.
yes, gun control is not the ONLY solution just like mental health care is not the ONLY solution. you need both.
it is as simple as this, guns make it super easy to kill. if you are a crazy person and have access to a gun the probability of you being able to kill lot of people is much higher than you aquiring bombs, making effective bombs, using knives, or anything else.
if you make it easy to kill, you make it easy to kill. simple as that.
btw, i am not for banning guns altogether. you do not want police/army and criminals to be the only ones to be able to have guns. but we need more control on ammunition capacity, number of guns owned, type of guns, semi-automatic gun restriction etc. etc.
Making guns illegal is probably the best and first steps to preventing this in the future. You can all argue about your right to own them, but there's plenty of places in the world that cope just as well without the need for them and only resorted to on as a last action.
I don't get the access to mental health care bit. Is it really that hard to get access to it? I never thought mass murders were trying to seek mental health professionals. They probably thought they were thinking VERY clearly. The idea that they were willing to seek mental health professionals indicates they're aware that something may be "wrong" with them, which I'm not too sure is that case...
Mass murderers do not start as mass murderers. It a product of a derangement gone untreated for whatever reason. People with mental illness are stigmatized in our culture-even in that cartoon posted earlier the person seeking treatment is depicted as a dullard- and it leads to people masking their illness in fear that they will be labeled crazy, or worse..and things like depression cycle into much darker places. Healthcare as a whole is horrendous in this country- even when you can afford it. "Mental" healthcare is no different.
Here in the UK we have a tiny fraction of the gun crime the US has..fact!
We have much tighter gun laws here in the UK...yes FACT!
We still have gun crime due to black market guns / illegally owned guns ...FACT!
Maybe if the USA got rid of its silly 2nd amendment you would only have a fraction of the gun crime you have now, yes you would no doubt still have gun crime but it would be much more in line with the countries that restrict gun ownership. The facts are there I cant see how anyone can argue against this lol.
If someone with a gun is detected and disabled by a security system while approaching the school no one would die and that person would be put in for mental care.
no one would die? don't you think that a psycho aware of such system would either go to some public place and shoot other people or wait for some opportunity to get close to kids, for example when class goes on a trip.
Banning guns won't solve the fact that nuts will hurt innocent people.
Do we need access to the types of weapons we have in the US? No. But outright bans wont' work for a least 5 generations in the US while we clear out the backlog of illegal and even legal owned guns that people won't give up. It's beyond idiocy to think that if the US banned guns, all of the millions and millions of guns within our border would simply vanish overnight.
We just need to make ammo $5,000 a round. Like Chris Rock said, "If you get shot at $5,000 a round you must really have deserved it."
Here in the UK we have a tiny fraction of the gun crime the US has..fact!
We have much tighter gun laws here in the UK...yes FACT!
We still have gun crime due to black market guns / illegally owned guns ...FACT!
Maybe if the USA got rid of its silly 2nd amendment you would only have a fraction of the gun crime you have now, yes you would no doubt still have gun crime but it would be much more in line with the countries that restrict gun ownership. The facts are there I cant see how anyone can argue against this lol.
Freedom is dangerous, we should just get rid of it. The Government will take of us I'm sure.
My belief is that people should have access to basic handguns but never to any high-powered non-sport rifles like the AR-15. Because I think the founding fathers never thought about us having guns that can spew out hundreds of bullets. Also without restriction on what guns, where would the line be dropped. You could even consider Nuclear ARMS the types of arms the constitution but I think we all agree that people should not have Nuclear Weapons. Also I have heard some views that teachers should carry around guns and I completely disagree, first you have to pay attention to the fact that almost no-one knows how to shoot and they would just completely miss the assailant. Also the teacher would be the first target in any situation. Lastly I would never want any adult to have any gun next to children in case that gun is somehow misplaced. My End belief is that we have to conform the constitution to the modern generation like the supreme court does so many times and consider that the founding father probably assumed the musket would be the only weapon and it is rather hard to do a school massacre with a musket that takes 1 minute to reload.
Sorry for bringing this up in the midst of all this heartbreak but I just wanted to shout out my viewpoint.
Replies
-- oh wait, im sorry I forgot "that" thing is too taboo to talk about ....
yes he could have stabbed SOME of them, not 20 kids and 8 adults. and how many mass shootings did we have in USA ?
i understand your perspective but you are literally bringing a knife to a gun fight - argument. this shooter had 3 guns, one of them being a bushmaster was in trunk of his car and not used luckily). god knows how many he could have killed if he used the bushmaster.
i just dont get why some people are so scared of gun control as if there is any chance of 2nd amendment ever being revoked.
there are crazy people all around the world. only difference is the crazies of this country have easy access to a automatic weapons capable of killing multiple people in seconds.
The speech police would like to have a word with you.
~1984
+1000000000000000000000000
Shame that violent video games are blamed once again, when the fact that over 70% of all households play them?
1. Road crashes: Kill 260,000 children a year and injure about 10 million. They are the leading cause of death among youths ages 10 to 19, and a leading cause of child disability.
You would need 3 shootings like this every single day, all year and you would still not catch up to deaths caused by cars.
US specific data
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr60/nvsr60_03.pdf
FirearmIn 2009, 31,347 persons died from firearm injuries in the United States (Tables 18 and 19), accounting for 17.7% of all injury deaths that year. The two major component causes of all firearm injury deaths in 2009 were suicide (59.8%) and homicide (36.7%). Firearm injuries (all intents) decreased 1.9% from 2008 to 2009. The age-adjusted death rate for firearm suicide did not change from 2008, whereas the death rate for firearm homicide decreased 5.0% in 2009 from 2008.
Motor-vehicle trafficIn 2009, motor-vehicle traffic-related injuries resulted in 34,485 deaths, accounting for 19.5% of all injury deaths (Table 18-). The age-adjusted death rate for motor-vehicle traffic-related injuries decreased 9.8% from 12.3 per 100,000 standard population in 2008 to 11.1 in 2009.
The legal age of being able to drive a car in the US is a whole other wonky issue,
..but it's hard to argue the positive aspects on the car as a whole for a working society today, and it's not hard to argue what little good weapons will do in the hands of civilians for this same working society.
Difference being those deaths are caused through accidents and the cars were not purposely used to murder said children. Complete straw man argument.
Off course gun rights people will truck out the lame "guns don't kill people argument " guns may not kill people but guns certainly allow people who want to murder others to do it on a massive scale.
Even more insane is the idea that if everyone and even the teachers had a gun they would pull out their gun, perfectly identify the perpetrator ,aim with perfect aim and stop shooter, unless however they miss, kill a bystander with their gun or accidentally shoot someone else who wasn't a shooter who just happened to take out their gun as well to try to stop the actual perp. Oh yes and when Police come to the scene off course they will easily identify the actual shooter from all the other people who pulled out their guns.
TeriyakiStyle for President!
oh but when I said this on the first page it wasnt necessary and I shouldn't start
pfft
There are only two ways to fix this
#1 in theory, more guns. If each teacher in the school carried a handgun or the majority of people in the mall a few days ago carried handguns this wouldn't have happened. Shooters won't go to places where theyll be shot back at. The 2nd amendment only works if everyone takes advantage of it, and back in the 1700-1800s people did. In modern times it only makes it easier
#2 re-ban all assault rifles, and evaluate all people buying guns/already own guns every 12 months with a psych test to make sure they're still sane. Not only that but we need a 6 month wait before you actually receive your gun. In the US if one gun store says you shouldn't own a gun you can just go to another and see if they'll let you.
I know this isn't the best place to argue politics especially in such a tragic thread but the fact that this is even possible baffles me.
Disregard this
But seriously, seems Ryan Lanza is the brother of the gunman, so he got to know his mom and brother dying and everything crazy happening through facebook attacks on his person.
Well if you are looking for a political discussion / debate I'd suggest you should join the political community.
Here we can still have a discussion but do not expect it to end well.
As for the news, I sympathize, and hope that US government comes to a positive conclusions about banning the guns or making it extremely strict to get them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjtXkLaSkdk
meanwhile on mass effect 3....
Took the words right out of my mouth. If we just helped people deal with their mental and social problems, they would be far less likely to go shoot up a school full of kids in the first place. Guns aren't the problem, people not getting the help they need is the problem.
if guns are not a problem at all, then why are there any gun laws at all ? why do we need a permit to buy a gun ? why cant guns be bought from vending machines ?
"this makes my stomach hurt. reports say the kids were killed execution style. Meaning they were put up against a wall or on their knees and shot in the head one by one."
So I think some people may be missing the intent of the second amendment. When they wrote it the idea was that should the government ever get out of hand the people would be able to march on Washington and take back their country.
Which is exactly what they did to create America in the first place. It was a bunch of citizens with guns who fought the British. That said, we live in a completely different world now. I don't even think a bunch of non trained citizens could ever hold a candle to our police forces and millitary. We'd get stomped so hard lol.
That said I am for the right own a gun, but like all things in america I think we need reform on the issue. However... the government is notorious for coming up with poor solutions to very real problems. (like obama care..)
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
Don't be ridiculous. Of course there are valid reasons to control access to guns (armed robbery for one), but calling for more control isn't the solution to this problem because it ignores the cause. People who are this far gone won't let laws stop them from acquiring guns, they'll just go underground to get them. It might as well be in a vending machine. If it wasn't guns, it might have been a bomb. If not a bomb, it might have been poison. The list goes on. If a crazy person puts their mind to killing people, there's no law that will stop them from attaining the means to pursue their goal. The proper solution is to prevent people like this from getting to the point that they decide to kill people. That's the realm of social and mental health. This problem isn't going to be solved by more restriction. It needs to be solved by making sure nobody else feels compelled to harm people. After all, if you can stop people from wanting to hurt others, what do you need gun control for? Gun violence is a symptom, not the cause. Social inequality, poverty, abuse, and mental illness is what drives violence, not the tools of violence themselves. People could hurt each other just fine without weapons if they had the ambition to do so.
@Wesley
Mental health is a difficult thing to manage. It isn't always obvious something is wrong until they are too far gone and they do something drastic. Sometimes there just aren't enough caring people in their lives to get them help. It's tricky. It's not as simple as physical health. Mental illness doesn't stick out like a wheelchair or a gap in your skull. It's internal and only shows in the person's behavior, which most people will think is just a character flaw of the person rather than a handicap. A lot of the time people just think you're a bad person and act accordingly. This tends to result in mentally ill people suffering a high rate of abuse.
Exactly. Taking guns away from law-abiding citizens just gives criminals (who obviously don't follow the laws) more of an incentive to do these things. What if somebody breaks into your house with a gun? are you going to go run to the kitchen to pick up a knife to defend your family while he has a gun? are you going to keep a knife under your pillow? I was hoping this thread wouldn't turn into this debate, but it was kinda expected, but people saying that gun-control is necessary and that there should be gun control...well... no. Do I believe we should have some sort of tighter law on guns? yeah, but banning them completely is absolutely insane.
yes, gun control is not the ONLY solution just like mental health care is not the ONLY solution. you need both.
it is as simple as this, guns make it super easy to kill. if you are a crazy person and have access to a gun the probability of you being able to kill lot of people is much higher than you aquiring bombs, making effective bombs, using knives, or anything else.
if you make it easy to kill, you make it easy to kill. simple as that.
btw, i am not for banning guns altogether. you do not want police/army and criminals to be the only ones to be able to have guns. but we need more control on ammunition capacity, number of guns owned, type of guns, semi-automatic gun restriction etc. etc.
People who are this messed up probably wouldn't have been able to get the guns legally. (or atleast I hope.)
Man this is truly a terrible situation
Mass murderers do not start as mass murderers. It a product of a derangement gone untreated for whatever reason. People with mental illness are stigmatized in our culture-even in that cartoon posted earlier the person seeking treatment is depicted as a dullard- and it leads to people masking their illness in fear that they will be labeled crazy, or worse..and things like depression cycle into much darker places. Healthcare as a whole is horrendous in this country- even when you can afford it. "Mental" healthcare is no different.
We have much tighter gun laws here in the UK...yes FACT!
We still have gun crime due to black market guns / illegally owned guns ...FACT!
Maybe if the USA got rid of its silly 2nd amendment you would only have a fraction of the gun crime you have now, yes you would no doubt still have gun crime but it would be much more in line with the countries that restrict gun ownership. The facts are there I cant see how anyone can argue against this lol.
http://www.skyvalleychronicle.com/BREAKING-NEWS/WHAT-DOES-SCIENCE-SAY-ABOUT-GUN-CONTROL-AND-GUN-VIOLENCE-1203207
I feel ashamed though talking about gun control in this situation
no one would die? don't you think that a psycho aware of such system would either go to some public place and shoot other people or wait for some opportunity to get close to kids, for example when class goes on a trip.
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state
Whoops forgot to make well regulated militia part in bold..
Banning guns won't solve the fact that nuts will hurt innocent people.
Do we need access to the types of weapons we have in the US? No. But outright bans wont' work for a least 5 generations in the US while we clear out the backlog of illegal and even legal owned guns that people won't give up. It's beyond idiocy to think that if the US banned guns, all of the millions and millions of guns within our border would simply vanish overnight.
We just need to make ammo $5,000 a round. Like Chris Rock said, "If you get shot at $5,000 a round you must really have deserved it."
Freedom is dangerous, we should just get rid of it. The Government will take of us I'm sure.
Sorry for bringing this up in the midst of all this heartbreak but I just wanted to shout out my viewpoint.