Is it really love of women to represent their entire gender as nothing more than titillation for men? Or is that just love of their breasts and ass? As long as the women shut up and we manly men can stare at their butts? How is that not hatred and contempt of women?
I know I personally don't have a hatred towards women so stop generalizing please.
you have to put a little more thought into why your sexy warrior woman is wearing a chainmail thong(I'm thinking of Red Sonja here)
We actually were talking about Red Sonja the other day. Why does she have a chainmail thong? Because it fits within the world she exists in. Conan and every other main warrior character in those stories wear little to no armor. Hell, there are parts where Conan is running around fully naked.
I think this movement is justified. The game development and publishing industries do have a "boys-club" mentality, and the demographics for employment in them bear this out.
If game development wants to be taken seriously as a venue for creative expression, it needs a broader representation of individual perspectives. And that means a greater degree of women producing games. It would also benefit from a greater degree of ethnic, cultural, and religious diversity. But starting on a demographic that represents close to 50% of the global population seems like a good idea. As an industry, we need more women in positions where they have the authority to make serious decisions about the content in games.
And as a community and sub-culture, we definitely need to start encouraging a more positive treatment of women. There's such a thing as common decency and manners, and they need to start being applied to gaming communities. The anonymity of on-line communities formed some very bad habits that were never properly addressed. Now that social networks are bringing on-line communities into mainstream visibility, the vitriol fostered by on-line gaming competition needs to be curbed.
Conan and every other main warrior character in those stories wear little to no armor.
Which is practical and has a historical basis. Chainmail thongs don't -- but they're cool imo, im just saying -- I can tell you a million reasons a bruiser like conan would want to be bare chested. Can't think of one for a chainmail thong aside from aesthetics.
The practicality aside, Conan's an interesting example of sexuality in fantasy. I don't know if you've read much Robert E. Howard, but oldschool conan is sexually charged as hell. Conan is definitely sexualized (maybe even in a homoerotic way) and he definitely pulls some rape-y shit on the regular -- including afaik actually raping a couple of women. He's also portrayed in a pretty racist, negative fashion -- he's an interesting example of the (rare) degrading male character you guys are all arguing about.
That said, again, I dont think arguing over how women dress is productive. Lysara, you're right that in the context of most games it's sexist and dumb, but railing against the way women in games are dressed is like trying to bottle up smoke to stop a fire. It's harder for most men to understand, and it's not going to solve the problem if al of our sexdolls are wearing parkas -- there are plenty of asian games with CREEPY AS FUCK representations of women who are very well covered. Hell, that chaste nun thing is an entire fetish unto itself, and one frequently presented in a skeezy degrading way in games.
Harry: The facts about sexual violence are scary, for either gender, and the facts about the way our culture measurably treats women differently are big and hard to argue with -- but I wasn't referecing them at all. I was telling an actual anecdote about the girls I hang out with. Every 'hot' girl i've chilled with could tell me a zillion stories about harassment any day of the week.
All of you guys: Sexism and misogyny are different. Implying good people (or just people you dont know) hate women just because they don't fully appreciate or agree with the issue isn't helping anyone.
oh great it's men vs women again. this is why this kind of discussion never goes anywhere.
If you actually looked up statistics and real data you'd realise what you're saying is pure conjecture. If you are completely ignorant to this information id be happy to guide you to it but probably through PM rather than cluttering this thread. Seriously, why obstruct meaningful discourse with dogma and conjecture.
Whoa, Harry.
First of all: this entire thread has consisted of almost nothing BUT conjecture. You yourself have thrown a lot of things around without much "hard data" attached to it - and injected your own dogma as well...so i wouldn't go jumping down any throats.
The biggest problem I see in this thread ATM is that it's lost focus on women working in the game industry for women portrayed in games...which wasn't really the initial point.
Like joseph said: bottling smoke to start a fire. We've been distracted into debating the symptoms and not the cause. yes - i'm guilty, too.
my unscientific observation - males had a head start on being allowed to be nerdy. It's going to balance out eventually, there's no old boys club in place because of the burnout rate, so there's a plus.
The non nerdy sides of the game industry seem to have a good number of women in it, namely producers and managerial roles.
Whoa, Harry.
First of all: this entire thread has consisted of almost nothing BUT conjecture. You yourself have thrown a lot of things around without much "hard data" attached to it - and injected your own dogma as well...so i wouldn't go jumping down any throats.
Ok, i'll admit that evolutionary psychology isn't "proven" but i know human behaviour does not come from god and in my opinion, approaching the issue with a method, with maturity- and without victimising anyone until a victim-oppressor relationship is actually confirmed- is the only meaningful way to discuss it. Without that baseline logic and the serious approach to the issue, we lead to either unanswered complaint, or a culture where women are victims which need to be treated differently.
The dogma isnt what got to me most, it's the fact that that dogma is actually *obstructive* to meaningful and mature treatment of the topic. How are we gonna sit back and decide men hate women and we need to be extra nice to the poor women to make up for that? this is offensive to both men and women who are pro-equality and anti-sexism.
And as a community and sub-culture, we definitely need to start encouraging a more positive treatment of women. There's such a thing as common decency and manners, and they need to start being applied to gaming communities. The anonymity of on-line communities formed some very bad habits that were never properly addressed. Now that social networks are bringing on-line communities into mainstream visibility, the vitriol fostered by on-line gaming competition needs to be curbed.
Runs contrary to "equality." We're talking about etiquette and special social customs for use around women. I don't agree with this as it's a legacy of the way women were treated by society before they could... yknow... vote and shit.
How about instead of "curbing our behaviour for the ladies" (which is an extremely patronising view toward women in general) just shame people for being fuckheads in general? For whatever reason, almost none of the games i actually play online seem to attract women (simulator type stuff) and my gut reaction to that rude competitiveness is to stamp it out and embarass the person for being pathetic. (though to be fair it's not that common as most players recognise they share a common enthusiasm. maybe if i played xbox live i'd think differently)
The biggest problem I see in this thread ATM is that it's lost focus on women working in the game industry for women portrayed in games...which wasn't really the initial point.
Yeah, this was my fear. When i kind of indulged in it i felt a little bad cause i thought it was somewhat off the original topic. I can quite sure tell you the problem here isnt "male privilege" though... And that this mentality isn't going to work towards an egalitarian solution. "Male privilege" is a modern idea that men are advantaged without their own consent, a nasty little legacy of the old notion that males were advantaged "just because." Both lead to the same treatment of women as non-agents, victims, and all that.
Besides, i've missed out on a job just this year because the place wanted to hire a female for higher female representation in the workplace. Another place i worked out of ~5 workers, one was female and she wasn't treated any differently. I know this is totally anecdotal, but so are most of the stories about the "boys club" of game dev.
Like joseph said: bottling smoke to start a fire. We've been distracted into debating the symptoms and not the cause. yes - i'm guilty, too.
With all due respect i feel like i was trying to delve into the actual psychology which leads to this kind of thing. That's really the only thing which motivated me to bring it up - cause i think greater understanding of "the human condition" is the only thing that's gunna help the situation. Throwing out ideas regarding why we do and dont treat eachother differently to be discussed. Not just accepting a dogmatic notion at face value and deciding action needs to be taken to counteract it. I hope i've clarified why this is counterproductive in the previous sections of this post.
First off, I am so happy to see the support for #1ReasonWhy in the polycount community. I assist Women In Games International with the GameMentorOnline program. I have already made a post in the Linkedin group regarding GameMentorOnline, but wanted to mention it to those who might not be a member of the group. If you are interested in being a part of the #1ReasonWhy movement, we are in need of mentors that specialize in 2D, 3D, character, concept, environment and technical art. We currently have two people that specialize in these areas and they both have proteges--I would prefer not to overload them.
The program requires that you have a minimum of three years in the games industry and can commit for at least one hour a week for a period of four months. After enrolling, you might not have a protege right away, but you will remain listed on the site as available when proteges search for a mentor who's expertise is in their area of interest.
It's awesome that so many people listed themselves under the #1ReasonMentors hashtag, but it would be great to see people make the commitment and GameMentorOnline is a way to do that.
First off, I am so happy to see the support for #1ReasonWhy in the polycount community. I assist Women In Games International with the GameMentorOnline program. I have already made a post in the Linkedin group regarding GameMentorOnline, but wanted to mention it to those who might not be a member of the group. If you are interested in being a part of the #1ReasonWhy movement, we are in need of mentors that specialize in 2D, 3D, character, concept, environment and technical art. We currently have two people that specialize in these areas and they both have proteges--I would prefer not to overload them.
The program requires that you have a minimum of three years in the games industry and can commit for at least one hour a week for a period of four months. After enrolling, you might not have a protege right away, but you will remain listed on the site as available when proteges search for a mentor who's expertise is in their area of interest.
It's awesome that so many people listed themselves under the #1ReasonMentors hashtag, but it would be great to see people make the commitment and GameMentorOnline is a way to do that.
I can't get this site to work. ie: after I submit my info I get an error page asking me to enter info again. This happened twice. I don't know, does it work for others?
I can't get this site to work. ie: after I submit my info I get an error page asking me to enter info again. This happened twice. I don't know, does it work for others?
I gave it a test and it worked for me. If you try again, please let me know if you are still getting an error. Thanks!
Replies
I know I personally don't have a hatred towards women so stop generalizing please.
We actually were talking about Red Sonja the other day. Why does she have a chainmail thong? Because it fits within the world she exists in. Conan and every other main warrior character in those stories wear little to no armor. Hell, there are parts where Conan is running around fully naked.
If game development wants to be taken seriously as a venue for creative expression, it needs a broader representation of individual perspectives. And that means a greater degree of women producing games. It would also benefit from a greater degree of ethnic, cultural, and religious diversity. But starting on a demographic that represents close to 50% of the global population seems like a good idea. As an industry, we need more women in positions where they have the authority to make serious decisions about the content in games.
And as a community and sub-culture, we definitely need to start encouraging a more positive treatment of women. There's such a thing as common decency and manners, and they need to start being applied to gaming communities. The anonymity of on-line communities formed some very bad habits that were never properly addressed. Now that social networks are bringing on-line communities into mainstream visibility, the vitriol fostered by on-line gaming competition needs to be curbed.
Which is practical and has a historical basis. Chainmail thongs don't -- but they're cool imo, im just saying -- I can tell you a million reasons a bruiser like conan would want to be bare chested. Can't think of one for a chainmail thong aside from aesthetics.
The practicality aside, Conan's an interesting example of sexuality in fantasy. I don't know if you've read much Robert E. Howard, but oldschool conan is sexually charged as hell. Conan is definitely sexualized (maybe even in a homoerotic way) and he definitely pulls some rape-y shit on the regular -- including afaik actually raping a couple of women. He's also portrayed in a pretty racist, negative fashion -- he's an interesting example of the (rare) degrading male character you guys are all arguing about.
That said, again, I dont think arguing over how women dress is productive. Lysara, you're right that in the context of most games it's sexist and dumb, but railing against the way women in games are dressed is like trying to bottle up smoke to stop a fire. It's harder for most men to understand, and it's not going to solve the problem if al of our sexdolls are wearing parkas -- there are plenty of asian games with CREEPY AS FUCK representations of women who are very well covered. Hell, that chaste nun thing is an entire fetish unto itself, and one frequently presented in a skeezy degrading way in games.
Harry: The facts about sexual violence are scary, for either gender, and the facts about the way our culture measurably treats women differently are big and hard to argue with -- but I wasn't referecing them at all. I was telling an actual anecdote about the girls I hang out with. Every 'hot' girl i've chilled with could tell me a zillion stories about harassment any day of the week.
All of you guys: Sexism and misogyny are different. Implying good people (or just people you dont know) hate women just because they don't fully appreciate or agree with the issue isn't helping anyone.
Richard: Well said.
Whoa, Harry.
First of all: this entire thread has consisted of almost nothing BUT conjecture. You yourself have thrown a lot of things around without much "hard data" attached to it - and injected your own dogma as well...so i wouldn't go jumping down any throats.
The biggest problem I see in this thread ATM is that it's lost focus on women working in the game industry for women portrayed in games...which wasn't really the initial point.
Like joseph said: bottling smoke to start a fire. We've been distracted into debating the symptoms and not the cause. yes - i'm guilty, too.
The non nerdy sides of the game industry seem to have a good number of women in it, namely producers and managerial roles.
http://www.fmvmagazine.com/?p=13379
That's one of the best things regarding this topic I've read in a long time.
Yeah, good on valve for being an awesome place for everyone.
The dogma isnt what got to me most, it's the fact that that dogma is actually *obstructive* to meaningful and mature treatment of the topic. How are we gonna sit back and decide men hate women and we need to be extra nice to the poor women to make up for that? this is offensive to both men and women who are pro-equality and anti-sexism.
This for example:
Runs contrary to "equality." We're talking about etiquette and special social customs for use around women. I don't agree with this as it's a legacy of the way women were treated by society before they could... yknow... vote and shit.
How about instead of "curbing our behaviour for the ladies" (which is an extremely patronising view toward women in general) just shame people for being fuckheads in general? For whatever reason, almost none of the games i actually play online seem to attract women (simulator type stuff) and my gut reaction to that rude competitiveness is to stamp it out and embarass the person for being pathetic. (though to be fair it's not that common as most players recognise they share a common enthusiasm. maybe if i played xbox live i'd think differently)
Yeah, this was my fear. When i kind of indulged in it i felt a little bad cause i thought it was somewhat off the original topic. I can quite sure tell you the problem here isnt "male privilege" though... And that this mentality isn't going to work towards an egalitarian solution. "Male privilege" is a modern idea that men are advantaged without their own consent, a nasty little legacy of the old notion that males were advantaged "just because." Both lead to the same treatment of women as non-agents, victims, and all that.
Besides, i've missed out on a job just this year because the place wanted to hire a female for higher female representation in the workplace. Another place i worked out of ~5 workers, one was female and she wasn't treated any differently. I know this is totally anecdotal, but so are most of the stories about the "boys club" of game dev.
With all due respect i feel like i was trying to delve into the actual psychology which leads to this kind of thing. That's really the only thing which motivated me to bring it up - cause i think greater understanding of "the human condition" is the only thing that's gunna help the situation. Throwing out ideas regarding why we do and dont treat eachother differently to be discussed. Not just accepting a dogmatic notion at face value and deciding action needs to be taken to counteract it. I hope i've clarified why this is counterproductive in the previous sections of this post.
First off, I am so happy to see the support for #1ReasonWhy in the polycount community. I assist Women In Games International with the GameMentorOnline program. I have already made a post in the Linkedin group regarding GameMentorOnline, but wanted to mention it to those who might not be a member of the group. If you are interested in being a part of the #1ReasonWhy movement, we are in need of mentors that specialize in 2D, 3D, character, concept, environment and technical art. We currently have two people that specialize in these areas and they both have proteges--I would prefer not to overload them.
The program requires that you have a minimum of three years in the games industry and can commit for at least one hour a week for a period of four months. After enrolling, you might not have a protege right away, but you will remain listed on the site as available when proteges search for a mentor who's expertise is in their area of interest.
It's awesome that so many people listed themselves under the #1ReasonMentors hashtag, but it would be great to see people make the commitment and GameMentorOnline is a way to do that.
www.gamementoronline.org
I can't get this site to work. ie: after I submit my info I get an error page asking me to enter info again. This happened twice. I don't know, does it work for others?
[ame="