Laptop size
I'm looking into getting a laptop for 3d work. I've never worked on a laptop, and I've always used a desktop with a large monitor. So I'm unsure whether I should be looking at a 17" or 15".
The more portable the better, but I'm not sure if 15" will be a struggle to work on. What are your experiences?
The more portable the better, but I'm not sure if 15" will be a struggle to work on. What are your experiences?
Replies
get the 17 inch. 15 is just to small. it gets really annoying after a few hours constantly moving menus and windows around.
get a 15 and and a nice 21+ monitor. this is the setup i had. it works really nice if you get a keyboard to. its just like having a desktop but you can throw it in your backpack and go.
just a word or warning: highend mobile gpu's are notorious for burning out in a year or two. so if you get a high end laptop MAKE SURE it has a dedicated video card that you can swap out and replace. i would actually buy a replacement video card at the same time you buy the laptop just so you have a backup if your card burns out. they can run as much as 700-800$ and the card specifications are usually not compatible so you cant just buy a replacement in 2 years and swap it in most cases.
its a bit sketchy. unless you absolutely need the mobility i would go with a desktop instead.
edit:
Matt has a good point probably the only workstation class laptops that have the graphics and the chassis with proper cooling and fans to run all day without over heating are the 17 SAGER models as far as i know. they are also easy to get replacement parts for also.
http://www.sagernotebook.com/index.php?page=category_browse&selected_cat=2
Try looking for atleast a 15.6, that will make a world of difference.
17 is kinda overkill, and should be considered more of a 'portable station' kinda deal.
Also, ASUS is the way to go. I'm dead serious about this point, an average gaming Laptop from ASUS costs peanuts and will serve you very well, plus they have a 3 year warranty in their stuff.
Actually yeah. It's 15.6ers I've been using. Also agreed on the rest. Asus seem to be the mutts nutts.
It's probably not the unit you're looking for exactly, but it's an example of Asus Laptop = Good.
personally for our kind of work i find working at starbucks is a total no go.
if you still want to do it at least make sure you don't get a glossy display. unusable anywhere but as a shaving mirror in the bathroom.
It will be spending most of its time at home, but I want to be able to take it to other places to work. I need a space saving solution so I don't want to be dependent on an additional monitor.
3ds Max is the most space consuming app that will be used on it.
Any others get on fine with 15.6", or others who think it's too small?
I definately loved having a laptop for going back and forth at school-as the school computers were aweful, but now, I want a desktop.
1. build quality/system testing by the oem
2. support
3. updates/upgrades
if you just want a mid range system asus would probably be good enough. but if you want to get a workstation with say a GTX680m, 2 hdd, and highend processors then i would never think about asus or alienware/dell. there build quality is bad. lots of defect parts. they really don't put to much effort into there high end systems. there low end volume market manufacturers.
the heat and power issues are very hard to deal with and take a lot of testing and component level adjustments. the only people that do that sort of quality control are the boutique system-oem's like SEGAR, AVA and a few others. most of the good boutiques use CLEVO oem laptops which are top of the line engineering and parts. CLEVO has been designing top of the line laptops for a long time. no other oem can match there component configurations and build quality with comparable temperatures and stability.
you can't go to newegg and get a new graphics card for a laptop. you have to go through an system-oem. the boutique oem's will give you great support and know exactly what your looking for and will be able to get your parts. trying to deal with dell and asus to get a replacement part for a 2 year old laptop is basically impossible. the whole idea of selling replacement parts and upgrades for there products is a joke. they change there designs so often that they probably will not even have parts available in two years. if you buy a $2800 laptop from them and want to upgrade your graphics card in in two years then your shit out of luck. they just don't do that type of business. SEGAR and the other boutiques will have no problems updating your system.
good oem's update there system BIOS to support new hardware and to tweak performance settings. you really need that, for upgrades and if there is any issues with fans/heat etc they are addressed in bios updates. SEGAR does really good here and releases updates for there older systems so you can upgrade to new hardware.
don't just jump into a system by dell / asus. take the time to spec the machine and find a good boutique that will answer your email in person and give you good support and a upgradeable system.
http://www.displayblog.com/2008/12/18/lenovo-thinkpad-w700ds-17-and-106-in-one-notebook-pc/
Built-in Wacom tablet and extendable second screen. Shweet.
if i decide to upgrade my Osborne 1 i will take a look at the specs. but Os 1 runs zbrush quite nicely and it has not ONE but TWO floppy drives
Where are you getting this from?
Experience, and friends who have worked in retail shops selling tvs, computers, laptops etc. I don't mean literally the bigger the better, but if its difficult to make out smaller details because of lack of screen size or poor definition, it means more work for your eyes and brain.
I've been using laptops for nigh on ten years and have had no such problems. Surely sitting too close to a screen that's too large is more likely to do you more harm. I don't think I've ever had to 'look real close to pick out details' on anything.
Very true, but thats not my point, like I just said I'm not trying to suggest 'the bigger the better'. I'm just saying that in my experience, I could get alot more done and work for longer sittings on larger screens than on my 15.4" laptop. Even when I borrowed my friends 17" I noticed a massive difference.
Only if the DPI is drastically higher on the smaller screen, even then some(apple etc) seem to think super high DPI is a good idea. With higher DPI you need an OS that scales properly though, if you've got super tiny buttons etc its not good.
A smaller screen means you can display less information on it, and has nothing what so ever to do with eye strain. The quality of the screen is the biggest factor in eye strain in monitors, tvs and laptops. Sitting too far away from a small TV will cause eye strain too, but won't be an issue with a laptop, because its.... on your lap. Having a huge laptop on your lap isn't the best idea because you're *too close* to it, again screen size has a lot to do with viewing distance.
My personal opinion on this: Get a decent laptop that is honestly small and portable, 15" is too big, 17" or bigger is ridiculous. If you need a laptop that big, you don't need a laptop, you need a desktop!
Honestly, are you going to fire up zbrush on the bus or something? Working on a laptop is very very bad ergonomically, so unless you're going to add a quality keyboard and mouse to your setup(again then you're back to the size of a desktop) I wouldn't recommend working for extended periods of time a laptop, its a quick path to RSI/carpel-tunnel.
Get a quality, small(12-13") laptop with a decent processor that can handle light/moderate 2d/3d work with good battery life, the "workstation" laptops are all silly because they're so large, get so hot and have such poor battery life that you have to use them sitting at a desk plugged in anyway, they give you very little benefit over a proper workstation pc.
So unless you're traveling the country and moving every week or so, or a student that takes your laptop from your house to your desk at class, I wouldn't bother with a larger laptop. I know quite a few people will disagree with me here, but at the very least I would suggest that you look into exactly how and why you want a laptop, and make a realistic estimate of how you're going to use it. Too many people buy these huge ridiculous laptops only to find that they don't ever take them anywhere because they're too big and bulky, and if you're not taking it anywhere, whats the point?
I currently use 3 laptops. Two 17" and one 15 a client provided. For me it's a good performance balance for work and play. I've lugged one of the two biggies for an onsite work. Practically needed a suitcase, but the payoff outweighed the temporary inconvenience. I haven't really experienced any wrist issues when business was brisk. Using wifi mouse helped? I don't know. Eyestrain yes, but rsi not yet.
I use secondary monitors though to expand my desktops. I think this is the reason why I get the occasional dry eyes is when I consistently look at refs on the side monitor when there's also an area of focus in front of me.
To counter heat issues, I use a belkin pad with a hollow core.
Planning to retire my 17-inchers into a render farm in a couple of years. And I'll likely get something like the eee pad now with specs that can power the usual tools. Maybe using widi won't be too bad too. Use my 55" oled for sculpting? Nah, I don't have a monster tv...maybe in two years if I'm lucky.:thumbup:
you should only get a 15-17 workstation laptop if you need the mobility. but that's more common than you think. lets say you get a contract for 3-6 months and you have to fly in. there is no real way to take your desktop with you. maybe you need to go to a conference for a few days every year and need a fully functioning workstation. there are lots of reasons a 17 makes sense even if you have a desktop.
for anyone who might need the mobility students, freelance, and don't want two system or can't get two systems a 15-17 workstation is a useful and reasonable way to go.
you do have to be careful tho and do your research. stay away from the the big brands and go with a boutique system-oem.
Yeah I was going to ask you guys. What are you guys using for cooling? I just bought a single fan Belkin and it really ain't doing the job. My Air still gets pretty damn hot. Ideally I'd be looking for a reasonably priced cooler with three fans in a triangle shape at least, and one that has a few added USB ports. Anyone know of a good one?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834994787
http://www.sagernotebook.com/index.php?page=product_info&model_name=NP9170
if you look at the bottom pic you can see that everything has its own lid so you just pop it off and replace the parts.
It's easy if you can hold a screwdriver and don't get the screws mixed up
Best expandable laptops are thinkpads - you can swap the DVD with a 2nd harddisk or even an additional battery. Hot swappable. No screws required.
Macbook Pros can be expanded easily with a 2nd harddisk because 3rd party manufacturers offer drive cages which replace the DVD. Some even offer slim external enclusures for the left over DVD drive.
Other laptops can be hacked to swap the DVD with a HDD. But you have to be lucky. i.e. you have to get a drive bay that fits (best bet, get a thinkpad one and see if it fits. If not, get a file and remove some plastic). Other issue: where is the SATA port internally. Some manufacturers also use custom connectors, so your mileage varies.
Big-ass gaming laptops often come with a 2nd drive bay by default. But it's easy when the entire machine rivals a desktop in size and weight
I had a thinkpad before and only used the DVD for windows installs. Movies I ripped on my main PC. And later I installed windows from a USB stick. Now I have a Macbook - same thing. The DVD is just ballast.
It will be on my home desk 80% of the time. I need to downsize so that I can use it on a small desk, and then put it away to use the desk for other things. I'd also like to take it outdoors for occasional work. That's pretty much my intended use.
A 15.6" would be great, but I'm not sure if I'd regret not having that extra space for apps like Max. If I'll struggle at all with 15.6" then I'd rather get a 17" and sacrifice the weight, as long as it isn't a chore to carry a 17" around. I've no experience with the weight so I can't say.
Over what weight would you say it becomes too lumbersome?
Edit:
Earthquake: is it even possible to work well on a 12-13"? Like I say, I've no experience with laptops.
I should also mention that I'll be rendering on it, and the dialogue boxes take up a lot of screen space.
For 3D work I love the hi-res display on my macbook pro - then at least the app's UIs still leave some space for the work area.
well i guess you have to have masochistic tendencies to prefer that over working on a desktop with a decent dual screen setup.
not worth it when 80% of time is spent working at home imo. get a desktop and a small laptop/netbook/whatever fits the wallet for your on-the-road needs.
though with a resolution of 1366 x 768 it's not the greatest but when I'm on the go I can take my projects with me and keep working.
I have a 12.5" Lenovo X220 with the upgraded IPS screen, its the best laptop I've ever used. Its 3 pounds and the battery life is about 5-6 hours. I5 with basic Intel graphics(which isn't as bad as you would think). The screen is really, really fantastic for a laptop, and its very hard to find laptops with good screens, most cost over $2000. To me screen quality is more important for art than having a large laptop, because most laptops have downright awful screens and doing anything art/color related is a headache(also crappy laptop screens literally give me headaches, eyestrain etc).
The keyboard is actually fairly good for the size, and I use a Microsoft Arc Touch(not the new folding one though) wireless mouse that works really well on a lot of surfaces and collapses to about 1cm or so, perfect for throwing in a laptop bag. I like the IBM/Lenovo thinkpad style keyboards though.
Would I do heavy 3d work on it? No, I wouldn't, but there really isn't any situation where I would do heavy 3d work away from my desktop/workstation anyway. I wouldn't do heavy 3d work on a 17" laptop either. I use it for a lot of photo processing. For sketching or some light 3d work/sculpting it is totally acceptable as well. The biggest thing to look out for is screen resolution, this is 1366x768 and about the minimum you can reasonably use Photoshop at. Keep in mind that many ~15" laptops have the same resolution. If I need lots of screen resolution, I'm going to use my workstation with 24" + 20" inch monitors.
It sounds like your laptop will only be used for work occasionally, in which case I would say the smaller and more portable the better, because you'll be more likely to take it out with you. You don't think a 17" is all that heavy/large until you have it and have to make the choice of whether to take it with you on a day to day basis, with a truly portable laptop that choice is much, much easier.
Right, even the best possible laptop is a poor workstation for 3d work, and once you hook up all the stuff to make it an ~okay workstation, you're back to workstation size so its pretty pointless.
I was actually very surprised since I thought I had to settle on something inferior, but in practice that isn't the case. The one thing I do keep in mind is that I only have 3gigs of RAM, and although generally applications wouldn't use much more than that anyway, to be careful I try to stick to one app as much as possible and not have things in the background.
I use ZBrush, Sculptris, 3D-Coat, Blender, pretty much everything that I'd use on my desktop rig, and there isn't a huge difference in performance (although my desktop is 1080p dual screens). The laptop is just the right size for transportation imo, it's not too bulky, doesn't get too hot, is super quiet (haven't heard it get loud yet but then again it's integrated), and it has free accidental damage coverage for a year.
WHHAAAAAAA??? This is a complete waste. If you're lugging 17" around, have some decent specs so you can actually get something impressive up on the screen. At the VERY LEAST have dedicated graphics and some decent ram to push it all.
http://www.xoticpc.com/force-1762-msi-1762-p-4347.html?wconfigure=yes
I would love to say buy a 'Mini-Tower' PC and be done with it, get best of both worlds, but how many places do you know that even have a decent screen or keyboard?
A laptop is a sound investment, and when it gets old, nothing is stopping you form simply using it as an appendix to your other PC's.
I don't think anyone here has suggested the OP shouldn't get a laptop. Me and a few others have suggested that he should get a laptop that does what laptops do best, which is be small, light, portable and have good battery life(so you can actually use it away from the desk).
Trying to replace a PC with a laptop is a losing proposition, you end up with a worst-of-both-worlds computer, too large to take places a smaller laptop would let you go, and too small/not powerful enough to actually replace your desktop.
So, get something that can compliment your PC, not replace it, that's how I feel about it. Buying a huge laptop as a secondary system is sort of like buying a CRT instead of an LCD. Sure it has some advantages, but the weight and bulk isn't worth it.
Now as a primary system that stays mostly at your desk, a large laptop is fine, if thats what you really want to work at.
I'll be using it for rendering too, so it'll need to be a quad core. My current quad core tower is noisey. Am I being too optimistic thinking I can get a silent quad core laptop? Or are there certain specs I should be looking out for?
I also put my taskbar on the left of the screen rather than the bottom since the aspect ratio has plenty of width and I want all the height that I can get.
one point tho, since about the geforce9 gtx mobile cards have in-class performance compared with the desktop models. they are not as fast as the equivalent desktop models but 'close', and certainly useable for the same level of work you would do with the desktop card. the notion that the high end mobile cards do not deliver in-class performance is false.
@Playdo
monitor,
if your going to get a 15 then hooking up a monitor is the best way to go imo. if your going to work all day for days then it matters. with a 17 it's debatable. it would still be nice to have a monitor but you can get by with a 17 for some time. if you put the monitor on a stand with space underneath then you can fold the screen back and slide it under the monitor. that way you can use the laptop keyboard and monitor. its 'very' compact and easy to break down.
15 vs 17 mobility.
if you have a nasty commute on the metro everyday and it gets really crowded and you have to walk lots etc, and you plan to do that every day then i would consider a 15. 15 fits in just about every normal bag/backpack. the weight is not to much even every day. if its not critical that you need to bring it everyday on a commute or you have a car then 17 is good. there not 'that' big, you can bring it on the metro etc but if you had to do it every day it might get annoying. they have more options for hardware, better screen, less heat etc.
rendering.
i think most of the i7m cpu's have 4 cores, so that's basically a quad-core.
again if your going to render over night then a 17 has better airflow and cooling. so it will not stress your components as much as a 15.
in addition to looking at Sager and gaming laptops take a look at the 'recommended hardware' by autodesk, lots of laptops.
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/syscert?siteID=123112&id=18844534&results=1&stype=system&product_group=19&release=2013&os=8192&manuf=all&opt=1
its still the case that a geforce is just as good as a quadro for 3d work and there cheaper. so i tend to stick with gaming hardware. and the support from the gaming boutiques is usually good and you need that. trying to deal with dell/lenovo/asus etc to get a parts is going to be a pain and probably cost more. they are generally much more picky with there warranty void policy. if you need maintenance you have to mail it in and get it fixed or else you void your warranty.
Gray, I'm not US based, so Sager isn't an option. Good idea about placing the laptop under the monitor - I've been thinking about how best to work.
Are there certain specs to look out for that will ensure the machine's silent? Fan make, speed etc? I've really had enough of working next to the drone of my machine.
660m maxes out BF3 at 1080p, no AA and no motion blur, but all ultra. GPU doesn't get above 65 C, and that is with light overclocking as well.
Decided to go with a 17" because they cool better. This system has two vents on the back, far left and far right, one for the GPU and one for the CPU; each having their own fan and heatsink complete with more than one heat pipe for each heatsink.
Really isn't all that heavy as well. I can see myself comfortably bringing this thing everywhere. Got a good bag for it.
Kind of blown away by the BF3 performance to be honest. It's truly amazing and how cool the GPU runs is quite surprising.