Worthless Women and the Men Who Create Them
polycounter
http://www.danoah.com/2010/10/worthless-women-and-men-who-make-them.html
Your thoughts?
I'm still letting it soak in.
"It is because of us, guys. It is because we leave them with no other option. We stop. We look. We comment. We joke. We implant those very thoughts into their way of thinking. We make sure they know that we agree with everything the media has brainwashed us to believe beauty to be."
I feel that we all could show more, much much more, respect and thoughtfulness where it is deserved.
Your thoughts?
I'm still letting it soak in.
"It is because of us, guys. It is because we leave them with no other option. We stop. We look. We comment. We joke. We implant those very thoughts into their way of thinking. We make sure they know that we agree with everything the media has brainwashed us to believe beauty to be."
I feel that we all could show more, much much more, respect and thoughtfulness where it is deserved.
Replies
This guy is blaming himself for something that he cannot control. People are attracted to other people, and there are things about them that are attractive. You can't choose to not be attracted to someone any more than you can choose to stop being gay, or to become taller or whatever. It's just the way you are, the way you were made.
I find it tragic that there are people like that author out there that so thoroughly despise their own humanity, that they feel guilty just being themselves.
Because it's not true?
You are who you are, nothing can change that. Changing that doesn't work, accept yourself and others will accept* you too.
*You wont give a shit about what badness they throw your way.
This is some serious catholic guilt level stuff.
You do what now O_O.
The idea that women just try to live up to standards of what "guys want" is also something I find a bit silly. It's probably not hard to satisfy a large percentage of people... It seems like they are probably more concerned about what the guys they like want, because they are also expecting the golden standard right back. If they weren't, I am sure we would all have an easier time getting what we want out of relationships.
He also doesn't take into account women who want to look like people in ads for their own reasons, not just to attract guys. It's dumb to imagine people only want to look good to attract the opposite sex.
In his article he says we have to stop craning our heads to look at women or ads and whatever. Then later he says we should do just that, but at "real" women. How is that going to be distinguishable by an impressionable passerby?
good points article with extremely valid things about respect and the objectification of women etc , the author just sounds either incredibly naive, trying hard to be sensitive to get laid, or just doesn't realize the human race is a bunch of barely evolved retarded violent apes that is lucky to not have blown ourselves off the face of the earth yet.
Similar pressures are put on men etc, tall, strong, full head of hair and a big dick etc. part of all this stems from animal instincts, the search for good genes, protection etc in a mate. the problem comes from how these traits have been blown out of proportion by the way society markets everyone to everyone else, not just women. hell birds, mammals,fish and almost all other animals all do displays of dominance, physical power/ attractiveness etc in order to ensnare a mate. its pretty arrogant to think humans are above this. most animals have been around for what, hundreds of thousands of years, and these traits seem to still exist....within almost every creature on earth.
like I said good points in the article for sure, I just wish it didn't sound so naive/religious and like he was wagging his finger at all men and on a high horse.
Like mentioned before, the door swings both ways, 'nuff said.
I don't agree with all he has to say, but:
He was asking us to appreciate real women. Maybe Polycount isn't the best community to attempt this at (since we do videogame art, and all we're about is pretty much our programed perception of what beauty really is. You're heard my distasteful rant about ridiculous gravity defying boobs). That's what I got out of it.
Sure he was preachy, and I don't agree with his extreme position (I still stop and look), but what I took out of this was to appreciate real beauty and not allow my perception to be skewed of what real beauty is by billboard pinup girls. Those are hot, but not real.
You'll be preached at your whole lives. Learn to take the good stuff and ignore the dogma. :P
I totally agree. Good points, but the presentation was very dogmatic. Some people are like that. Like I said, I'd take the good points and keep going. Some people will throw out a bushel of truth because it contains a grain of error, while swallowing a bushel of error because it has a grain of truth.
DKK: Haha, I agree, I feel the same way a lot. I'm a short guy who likes art and not sports, and I can't recall many genuine compliments from a girl. Just a lot of mean jokes (is that flirting?). It does swing both ways, and that negative self talk women do men do too, just as much.
"I'm the kind of guy they always flirt with to mess with, but never marry." It made me very sad.
Like you said, both genders are are guilty of objectifying the opposite sex, and having high standards of what beauty is. To be honest I think pornography plays a big part in all this. It really skews a person's perception of the opposite gender, and diminishes someone's ability to appreciate a of beauty in life.
To me, this kind of thinking is almost offensive. If I was the kind that would take offense to mundane things like that.
wtf is "real" women anyway? Good looking ones are not real, and ones with "nice personalities" are the real ones we should all be appreciating?
This seems more like demonizing the enemy. The guys who flat-out objectify women. We're painting them as if they're not part of our world, as if they're part of some fake unreal (no pun intended) world. I don't understand this.
I guess you'll need to explain that last part, bro. Not attacking you, just not understanding your point.
That article was terrible by the way, what an idiot, I wonder if he ever had a 'real' woman himself (real as in a human). IMO it all comes down to evolution; when you look good you can get things done, and when you can get things done you are evolutionary speaking a good choice, this goes both ways for males and females.
I've never met a guy who was self confident and respected other people who had trouble with girls. Only insecure dbags who blamed their troubles on more capable guys than them. Nice guys dont finish last, weak guys finish last, whether they're dicks or not.
[ame]
kwakkie: Dude, that's a horrible way to think. You can't disclaim personal accountability because you think we're all some by product of evolution. Take responsibility of your actions. If we're evolved, then think on a higher level from the primates we evolved from.
But I can agree that the article was a little much.
I have trouble with girls. What are you saying?
Absolutely. Having come from not being able to deal with women at all, I've realised over the years that it's the complete opposite of what this guy says. Be confident about your desires, don't feel guilty for wanting something or someone.
And no, I'm not a douchebag, any woman that knows me will agree I'm actually a really nice guy. I'm just not gonna hide it if I want them.
Forgive me if you weren't implying sex. I might have jumped the gun there.
The beautiful women are beautul without/with makeup.
Women dont dress up and get cut up for men, they do it for themselves. Its what they think they should be, through the magazines and the vision of what they see, it doesnt matter wether men are looking or holding up these things or not.
As you get funny, skews, like women think men dont like pubic hair(or women just dont like it), when most men dont care, or probably prefer it.
I didnt read all of it but it sounds like he wants women to get back into the kitchen and hide under frumpy clothes, so the neighbours dont see her and end up enticing her away with sweeties and clothes.
But seriously, who thinks that way? ppl who r slaves to their egos, both male and female. When u lose proportions and a sense of self, u became a slave to it. It feeds and defines who u r. But this is a small (and unfortunate) percentage of population, apparently this guy grew in a corrupted place.
@ Calabi: evolution has nothing to do with human ego. And serving the ego is serving for other ppl, u'r looking half way when u think "it's for themselves". Naw, it's for others being pleased with them, so then they'll feel better.
It's been my personal observation that shallow guys, attract shallow chicks and each find what they're looking for. Intelligent people with proper respect for other people regardless of gender, find other like minded people, settle down and never make so much as a blib on anyone's radar. You do realize who these people are when you run into them... they strike you as absolutely average, ordinary, people.
^ This ^
Its part of evolution. People see themselves through other people, they want what other people have, because they dont know what they want themselves. Empty minds consume whatever is available. I think its a bit more than them just trying to please other people though. Like they have an incorrect view of what other people think, caused and supported by the media. Its more other women that are causing this, than it is men(men dont normally notice this stuff, "have you changed your hair", "are your boobs bigger").
Easy way(not really) to solve this is for society to change its values, encourage, the attainment of knowledge experiences over things.
This article is simply validation for girls that have daddy issues.
I know plenty of strong-willed women. And they sure as hell don't blame the men around them.
I like chasing hot girls, i like looking at hot girls. I'm sure they like doing the same.....in my opinion they can dress how they want, and although you can blame it on the media that girls are encouraged to wear nothing and diet to stick insect proportions, i still find the girls that really catch my eye are those that are wearing something slightly leftfield, individual, not the ones that are half naked. Same goes for looks and personality.
What people SHOULD be worried about is the recent feminisation of men, partly due to wanting to conform and be 'hot'.
You, with the grooming products and the manicured nails riding a pink Vespa and crying to Desperate housewives.....get a grip, grow a beard, lose the tight jeans and buy a superbike. I blame it on all the oestrogen in the water.
There is a serious point here tho. Had a very interesting chat with a girl the other day who was complaining that a lot of men were becoming pussies, and that obsessive grooming and moisturizing were not attractive features.
I can appreciate the article for what it was trying to accomplish, that we ought to show real beauty some respect, while I don't care at all for it's tone.
Drav: Haha, I know I know; about the feminine men. One visit to deviantart and you find yourself shuddering at what you find on the front page: Feminine gay men, all drawn by women.
In short (here's your summery), half of the people on this forum missed the point. Photoshoped magazine cover models are not real, so show real women your appreciation.
Edit: Also seconding this:
Definitely truth.
To summarize...
Yes. And no. Both of these things, sometimes. Maybe. It depends.
Article: This guy needs a girl.
Comments:We are all shallow in our own way, like other have said its in our genes to like what we like.
I read the whole thing and what I got from It was that this dude has struck out time after time and his last chance at a mate with him being at his 30's is to create an this article to gain a confidence with woman and to (maybe like others have said) meet someone from It. He said It took him 30 years to realize this, that he's single, and that he's sorry for the men wove portrayed women to be "worthless" sympathizing with them. He also mentions that he knows probably more than half his audience are women.
In the end It's both of us we all have a shallow side we all want what we want, its what we like, I don't think the women in mags are real I hardly even look through mags. I told my last girl friend she was perfectly fine, If I analyzed her she was chubby but not to the point of concern, she also was a single mom and I was willing to be there, anyway.
I loved everything about her but no matter what I told her she still wasn't that comfortable with the way she was. I think no matter what we say they want to be perfect for themselves cause they have there own idea of what they should look like be like, its a goal for them like anyone who's after a goal. But now no matter what level of obesity women are in they still want the stud, buff, blue eyed, RICH guy .period. A man should make an article about women but that wouldn't solve anything.
Real trouble, like never get girlfriends or get laid, or just awkward and not a 'player'?
If you have real trouble with women my worldview is shattered, badass art should = getting chicks. :poly127:
To be honest i see this as only a good thing societally from a humanist standpoint. Now all the wimpy guys in highschool who are too girly to lift weights or wrestle or something (half or more of us artists, i bet!) can get chicks without being obnoxious posers.
If I can try to relate this article to PC or the game industry, almost every woman has an hour glass figure in games, men with muscles, unless we're getting into monsters or aliens. Maybe I lurk too much but I do quietly appreciate seeing posts of women characters who don't have the perfect ideal figure. There was a high-collar girl several months ago that got praise and criticism because she was thicker than most female models. One of my favorite female characters is Lillith from Darkstalkers 3 to be specific. Huge hips and thighs, flat flat flat. She had nothing but the most charming personality and I loved playing her character again and again. Course she sometimes gets a bust from nowhere or loses those hips in other art renditions and often she's just a lesbian accessory to Morigan which sells a lot of sex appeal.
If men make us feel this way, I'd say it's our faults for continuing to harbor such harsh feelings against ourselves. Just be sure to tell your significant other that you appreciate her. I spend 55 minutes each morning to look nice and it's my very least favorite part of the day and often feels like a habitual necessity of upkeep. Even this morning I cringed at my chipping fingernail polish and realized it's time for another manicure. I hate doing manicures. I only like the end result.
It's tricky. Everything seems to have dohble meanings and can lead to miscommunication. I can appreciate a beautiful woman too without getting competitive about it. If someone looks stellar, I doubt they just rolled out of bed looking that way and what's wrong with a little praise? However you can't glorify yourself simply by degrading others around you.
I can't say I know how men think or how women think. But I can say I do feel this article is more accurate than I'd like to admit, however it could have been better presented with less guilt trips. You can get a point across without rubbing someone's nose in it. That being said, I don't blame anyone, guys in particular since I'm writing from a female point of view, that their eyes wander. Guys watch porn, Girls watch porn, We all check out other people. It happens.
There are two distinct issues at play here: Bad design (all women have hourglass figures) and objectification (all women are designed primarily for sex appeal)
They're pretty much separate; the objectification informs the bad design choices, but either one can exist without the other.
Personally, im way more interested in discussing the first on a place like polycount. Why is it despite so many talented artists in the industry that so many boring, poorly designed playboy model chicks appear in videogames? You can sexualize women with a lot more style than what we normally see (nsfw)
The topic is interesting though, had a funny conversation with a friend of mine recently about this topic in relation to evolutionary psychology. He's a reasonably clever dude but I dont necessarily agree with him, he reckons that we all have primal instincts embedded in our nature and its going to take many more generations to loose those instincts.
for example: why do women like fit/strong/muscly men, or men in a position of leadership even if its low level leadership ? my friend says its because they are still looking for someone who has the muscles to work hard to fend for the young and leadership shows that they are more of an alpha male and therefore more desirable.
So apparently we evolved from a primate culture that still invades our thoughts and actions. So from my friend Als perspective we all need to understand this and fight against those natural instincs by taking responsibility for ourselves and in so doing we create a new psychological pattern many generations in the future.
"I didn't pay attention in school. The only job I'm ever going to land involves the ability to pick up singles with my ass cheeks. Once my cheek dexterity begins to slip, I'm screwed!
So I better snag someone who has their shit together so they can keep on taking care of me and I never have to grow up! If I can grate cheese on their abs all the better!"
It's like being eternally 17 years old and never having to accept responsibility for your life or your own actions. I think there are a lot more scared little girls who never really learned how to grow up or what its like to be an adult then there are women blindly following some primal instinct totally unaware of what they're doing.
Again if that's all you ever want out of life, its not hard to find. If you never search very hard, its not hard to find all you ever looked for.
Go ahead princess find your prince charming.
It's not just a female thing either, there are plenty of man-boys out there looking to swing off a sugar mommas sweet set of tits. This resistance to growing up and accepting responsibility is one of the core things wrong with most modern society.
We're really going through a time where people are really trying too hard to be victimized. Rather than admitting you have an insecurity and working to feel better about yourself, you point a finger at someone else for making you this way and act helpless? The fact is the number of people considered attractive according to society's norms are vastly in the minority, take this fact and your responsibility as an individual to try your best to be confident in yourself and not try to hurt the confidence of others.
I definitely do take your point ebagg but Im not so sure that peoples tastes are varied as much as we would like to think, for example in my group of friends there is a girl I would consider very attractive, just chatting with the boys in my group of friends I discovered that nearly all of us have at some point made an advance on her even if it was just subtle. I thought that maybe we all had different tastes but I was proven wrong, this often happens too...when you are with your male workmates and you spot a very attractive girl, you look at your mates faces and you can often see them looking at the same girl lol
in my opinion media/culture/life etc has conditioned the majority of us to think a certain type of woman is attractive no matter what kind of man we are and when we find a man that doesnt find that kind of woman attractive we think hes wierd, why? because hes a minority and we know it. Even when I was at school in south africa the white guys and black guys would oogle the same girls on tv and in fhm regardless of race or taste.
I think this article is trash. Sure, everybody likes being told they are great. My suggestion to people who don't get told this enough is to become more exceptional.
Also, don't take other people's opinions too seriously. Haters going to hate.
A lot of you guys seem to have this childish elitist superiority complex about women who arent geeky or nerdy. There are a lot of people who find fulfillment in life from athletics or being a socialite or whatever other activities you trivialize as shallow and vapid.
a) completely normal human bullshit that's been around forever. I'm pretty sure insecurity about the way you look and act is nothing new.
b) a culture that doesn't incentivize many basic skills or traits, or rather one which doesn't de-incentivize unwanted traits. You can get away with being devoid of almost all basic skills and character traits as long as you can find one thing to do well enough (aka: terribly) to get a paycheck. Jane can be an ignorant slut, and John can be a stupid douchebag because there's nothing stopping them. They can both wake up in the morning, put on suits and shamble off to work like normal people to file papers. Nobody will ask them is they can boil an egg, hold a decent conversation about anything other than sports or celebrity gossip, or what the last real book they read was.