Let's make some broken interface guesses!!
More seriously I find it quite sad that they qualify their product as being a revolution, but never addressed the wagon of bugs that 3.1 still has. Oh well...
well it was kinda a revolution at version 1.5 or so when everyone started using it for 3d sculpting but now its just current tech. I wonder if they will challenge 3dcoat on the voxel front, or just redesign the interface those would be top of my list , theres not even a hint at what new tools they are proposing.
I'm looking forward to it!
Hopefully it will be more stable here and there (although I haven't had many crashes recently), and will have better functions for importing/exporting 3d meshes and painting in 3d (such as bringing more brush features from projection master into the realtime 3d painting).
I bet they continue with this whole 2.5D crap and the worst interface in the world. They'll add about 10 massive features but ignore the root problems.
I bet they continue with this whole 2.5D crap and the worst interface in the world. They'll add about 10 massive features but ignore the root problems.
Sorry to say this guys but i know some testers at various companies. They have nothing good to say about it. Apparently good things have been removed, useless things have been added, formerly simple things are now cumbersome and overly complicated. And any feedback given to Pixologic about that has been ignored.
They're catering to movie studios in the new version it would seem, and apparently left game makers behind at Z3.1 . I wasn't a beta tester so this should be taken with a grain of salt. They may have addressed some of this since I heard this stuff.
Sorry to say this guys but i know some testers at various companies. They have nothing good to say about it. Apparently good things have been removed, useless things have been added. And any feedback given to Pixologic about that has been ignored.
They're catering to movie studios in the new version, and apparently left game makers behind at Z3.1 . I wasn't a beta tester so this should be taken with a grain of salt.
Behind the scenes, always a disillusioning view.
That's a shame.
WELP! *SIGH* Guess it is time to get muddy.
I think by now we're all pretty used to zbrush's kind of self-felating brand of promotion, but what I really wonder, is if it is gonna be august of 2009. Look how long 3 was delayed. They said, "It's coming out XX 200X!! Everybody love us!" Then when that date came and went, that thread was deleted, along with all the other threads created asking where the hell it went.
Pixologic has a terrible track record on meeting release dates, and over inflating (beyond any other company) what the new features are. I love using zbrush, and all, I just can't believe any hype they throw at it.
Well on the 3.5 thread at the zbcentral forums this was said a while ago (to be taken with a grain of salt):
Maxim_fleury
I got to talk to one of the Pixologic guys and he gave me the news about ZBrush 3.5. Wouldn't tell me what the new features would be but did say that they wanted to offer a complete modelling solution with this one. And he pointed to the seminar going on about creating houses in ZBrush (it's on the pixologic site). To which I said, hard surface modelling and I got a smile and he said that he couldn't go further into it...
well also be getting the 3.12 features in the Windows version finally, which for those who dont know include:
Increase Polygon count
Multiple textures per tool
Multiple Displacement Maps per tool
PUVTiles, an enhanced version of GUVTiles/AUVTiles UV mapping
Masking by Ambient Occlusion (which can be saved as an Ambient Occlusion Map)
Streamlined navigation (right mouse navigation, subtool framing, one click subtool selection process)
Improved perspective with added visual grid
ZSpheres editing in perspective mode
Much Improved zoom (get to -really know- your polygons one by one)
2 new smoothing brushes (SmoothPeaks and SmoothValleys)
One click merging of subtools
Faster and more intelligent algorithms, resulting in a smoother sculpting feel
Enhanced Polypainting accuracy -Improved Project All functionality with Scan-Distance Control
More Vibrant "Deep Shadow" for real-time Preview"
hmm. sounds like there's alot of zbrush discontent floating around. Iam diggin 3.1. and as far as bugs go, cant think of anything other than the occonal crash. Looking foreward to how the mudbox.vrs.zbursh war plays out.
Wow a free update!
im guessing this is replacing the 3.5 update everyones been waiting for?
lol deja vu...this happened with the last half point release; got pushed up to 3.
Fair play to them offering another free update though. I'll wait to pass judgement until I see new features. Hope they got rid of that hopelessly shit standard material.
At GDC I stressed so much to my Pixologic friend that if Autoback wasnt incorperated then we would riot. He said he would look into it, that when you add features like autoback it causes the app to be more system heavy and would limit the on screen pixol draw. Only time will tell .
Looking forward for what are they making there. I tend to agree a little bit with mikezoo, except a few bugs and ocasional crashes I'm pretty happy with Zb3.1 . Well I agree shortning the core modeling functions and workflows would be necessary at this point, but I can't agree it is the big pile of shit some apparently say it is....
Heh I'd be happy just with the 3.12 features, zsphere perspective and AO baking is what I'm missing the most.
Technically you can produce an entire (static) asset from start to finish using ZBrush alone already. The main thing that would suck right now would be the UVs since there's no way of doing an intelligent unwrap afaik...
Great news (how does pixologic makes any money?) lol
And yes Mop, with the 3.12 improvements, some better paiting tools, brushes and color layers would be enought for me at this point. ah an improved retopology (why not a single button click instead of that workaround?)
I'm surprised at all of the anger in this thread, I didn't realize people were still having trouble with the interface...I mean you pretty much press import and start sculpting.
And as far as software companies go pix is doing pretty good IMO, I mean updates are released for free and they release incremental tools after a release like transpose master and subtool master.
I also dont see how "Catering to movie studios" could hurt us at all, with the current level of detail we're putting into our highpoly models a lot of the skills and tools are overlapping..... we bake our shit down to a normal map but we already have like 20 different ways for doing that, even free awesome ways.
I'm surprised at all of the anger in this thread, I didn't realize people were still having trouble with the interface...I mean you pretty much press import and start sculpting.
the biggest issue I've come across is remembering to press the freaking T button to go into edit mode.. there's a lot of little crap like that. once you get used to it it's fine but it can really throw new users through a loop!
I also dont see how "Catering to movie studios" could hurt us at all, with the current level of detail we're putting into our highpoly models a lot of the skills and tools are overlapping.....
I could be more specific but I feel I'm already treading on bad territory even giving an opinion before it's released. Pointing out specific removed features or new features that are useless or counterproductive to game artists would be asking for it.
Again adding a disclaimer that this is not based on my using the tool, just talking about what I've heard from some who have. So take this as hearsay.
never will understand software preference.. i use what the person that is paying me tells me to so it will fit in their pipe, and my art looks the same weather it came out of zbrush or mudbox same goes for max, maya, or xsi. if your a 3d artist and you get all picky about what app you use then you are going to miss lots of job opportunities, not to mention possibly fucking your whole company if a certain app would help with tools or animation pipelines.
here is a secret that people that only use 1 app don't know....
I was exposed to zbrush and mudbox 1.0 at the same time and coming from 3ds max, the zbrush interface made absolutely no sense at all. The choice of hotkeys is completely arbitrary, and there are way too many hotkeys with no equivalent menu buttons. So I went with mudbox
Of course over time I've regretted my decision many times since zbrush has far more options than mudbox, and mudbox 1.0 was really a giant piece of cow manure. The 2009 version is a bit better.
So maybe when this new release comes out I'll stop being lazy and see if there's a method to their madness. So to refresh my memory, to zoom in I have to press Alt+F1+Home, tap the top of my head, circle my stomach, and click twice on each corner of my screen while spinning the wheel as fast as I can?
never will understand software preference.. i use what the person that is paying me tells me to so it will fit in their pipe, and my art looks the same weather it came out of zbrush or mudbox same goes for max, maya, or xsi. if your a 3d artist and you get all picky about what app you use then you are going to miss lots of job opportunities, not to mention possibly fucking your whole company if a certain app would help with tools or animation pipelines.
here is a secret that people that only use 1 app don't know....
what i would like to be fixed is the rightclick/leftclick bug, it's annoying and totally reproducable and cost me a lot of working hours
other than that i like the ui once you are used to it it's pretty straight forward, i mean who really needs all thos ebuttons? just ignore them :P
as a new feature i'd like to see nhanced retopo tools, sculpting works just fine, retopo could definitely be improved
Is the rightclick/leftclick bug you're talking about where your finger accidentally goes retarded for a second on your wacom pen...causing zbrush to lock up? Not sure if that's what you're referring to, but that happens to be quite a bit.
And yea, I'm actually kinda surprised people are still complaining about the UI.
Arsh I dunno really. For me the most important thing between apps is continuity. When I jump from max to maya to mud, I feel like working on one and only object. Stuff just transfers properly.
When I throw Zbrush into the mix, it all becomes unbalanced. I spend minutes fighting against a backwards material system that just wont remember my settings, have to click layers at random to toggle their visibility, I am forced to work at slower framerates when I zoom in (hello!!) and somehow I find the visual feedback provided by Z to be misleading in general.
So I don't really mind the interface after all ('just ignore it' yup I agree with that), and there is some very clever things I really love in Z (MRGBZgrabber for instance is a fantastic thing to have, very smart tool). But most of the time I feel like I am working through a screen of smoke in Z, and that's the kind of stuff I would love to see them fix, but I am pretty sure they wont
Let's make some broken interface guesses!!
More seriously I find it quite sad that they qualify their product as being a revolution, but never addressed the wagon of bugs that 3.1 still has. Oh well...
to quote the zb overview on their site : ' . . . and intuitive workflows. Built with in an elegant interface . . . '
where the fuck they cook that shit up from i'll never know. they're like the quintessential nerds that can solve endless math equations but don't know their stink ass from their elbow when it comes to actual human interaction
fuck these motherfuckers. the fact that their app could be massively improved with just a few small tweaks. yet they seem to be the only folks who don't see it. dicks
i view this perpetual free upgrade bullshit simply as a way for them to drop any responsibility / accountability to their users. a mechanism to enable them their apparent bubble vacuum development approach. i would gladly pay a reasonable price for point upgrades that focus and cull so much dicky shit this app is riddled with
It's true. They're just tools to do our jobs. That approach has been said and used from artists in our industry for a while now and it works. It should be everyone's approach. No brainer.
However, if something isn't quite as accessible as other applications (re: tools) out there for us to use, you're bound to hear about the non-love people have for it. pior's point is somewhat how I felt about zBrush when I wanted to learn a sculpting tool. It seems to fight against the grain of other applications out there that are also integral parts of a work flow. So when we're used to certain actions, habits, processes and logic its only natural to resent something that goes against that.
I think, for me anyway, thats how Mudbox found its acclaim. Analyze the market, see how people are working, and build around that. I've yet to look up a tutorial for Mudbox because, so far, my experiences with other tools I use daily apply to this application. I cannot say the same for zBrush. (Call it a learning curve or whatever it may be.)
Time is money.
Arsh's point also rang strong, in that really we should learn whatever the tools it is our employer wants us to use as to stir the workflows pot. It would be nice, though, if all app's were built with accessibility in mind.
I actually really enjoy ZBrush's interface. The only thing that annoys me is the Ctrl-S not saving a document AND ztl at the same time and stuff like that
pior, i hear you loud and clear and i wasn't necessarily talking about this feature that feature, i mean i like max's over all modeling workflow more than maya's, but since i have used both apps extensively i have a way i work in maya, and a way i work in max.
what i was referring to more is that the whole zbrush vs mudbox debate stinks of the old max vs maya debates that happened a lot back in the days before autodesk owed everything and frankly nothing constructive ever came out of the debates. bottom line is that when i started doing 3d i thought max was the shit, every time i opened maya it gave me a headache and i couldn't understand why anyone would use it, but it was because i was a noob, and i was afraid to leave my comfort zone.
now i am working in maya and houdini and it makes sense because of what i am doing with them. production is king, not your preference in packages. i find using any app on a daily basis for an extended amount of time makes the interface become transparent and you just work, it doesn't matter if its 3d modeling or running the register at the supermarket, it becomes second nature and all the crying and complaining is pretty much just the inexperience talking.
the only thing i ever find myself wanting out of every package is more stability, crashing always sucks.
Maybe I'm crazy (and lucky to have never had major issues), but I love that Zbrush is unique and "quirky". Sure the interface has a learning curve, but I'd say it's more about just understanding how it works on a basic level and getting around what you're used to as opposed to what it is. Once you get your head around it it's really straightforward.
That said, why I like it being different is that it is very much a different program and experience. Once you finish modeling you know you're gonna jump into zbrush and be operating in a completely different way, keeping your workflow interesting. Personally I would go nuts with boredom if I was using one or two very similar programs for my whole workflow. As an example, Photoshop has been essentially the same program for many years, and there's never been a need for anything else. I get incredibly bored of using photoshop because the experience is always the same, it's monotonous. At the very least, I applaud them for trying something new, though from what I head they should probably be more receptive to criticism.
As for accessability, Pixologic does a great job providing support, the only thing inaccesible is the fact that zbrush is so unique in its approach.
I also totally agree with Arsh that once you use them enough, the software just becomes second nature.
For the record, I like Mudbox just fine too, though I haven't used it too extensively.
Replies
More seriously I find it quite sad that they qualify their product as being a revolution, but never addressed the wagon of bugs that 3.1 still has. Oh well...
edit, being a free upgrade, this may be the bastion of bugfixes wev been waiting for more than a new wave of revolution
im guessing this is replacing the 3.5 update everyones been waiting for?
Hopefully it will be more stable here and there (although I haven't had many crashes recently), and will have better functions for importing/exporting 3d meshes and painting in 3d (such as bringing more brush features from projection master into the realtime 3d painting).
I'd love to be wrong.
They're catering to movie studios in the new version it would seem, and apparently left game makers behind at Z3.1 . I wasn't a beta tester so this should be taken with a grain of salt. They may have addressed some of this since I heard this stuff.
Behind the scenes, always a disillusioning view.
That's a shame.
WELP! *SIGH* Guess it is time to get muddy.
3D Coat.
For some reason I keep thinking Coat of Arms.. which I relate to Armour. What can I say.
Pixologic has a terrible track record on meeting release dates, and over inflating (beyond any other company) what the new features are. I love using zbrush, and all, I just can't believe any hype they throw at it.
well also be getting the 3.12 features in the Windows version finally, which for those who dont know include:
Increase Polygon count
Multiple textures per tool
Multiple Displacement Maps per tool
PUVTiles, an enhanced version of GUVTiles/AUVTiles UV mapping
Masking by Ambient Occlusion (which can be saved as an Ambient Occlusion Map)
Streamlined navigation (right mouse navigation, subtool framing, one click subtool selection process)
Improved perspective with added visual grid
ZSpheres editing in perspective mode
Much Improved zoom (get to -really know- your polygons one by one)
2 new smoothing brushes (SmoothPeaks and SmoothValleys)
One click merging of subtools
Faster and more intelligent algorithms, resulting in a smoother sculpting feel
Enhanced Polypainting accuracy -Improved Project All functionality with Scan-Distance Control
More Vibrant "Deep Shadow" for real-time Preview"
read about that stuff here:
http://www.pixologic.com/zbrush/downloadcenter/index.php
And of course who isn't hoping for voxels and improved painting w/layers. But no word on those features yet.
lol deja vu...this happened with the last half point release; got pushed up to 3.
Fair play to them offering another free update though. I'll wait to pass judgement until I see new features. Hope they got rid of that hopelessly shit standard material.
Looking forward for what are they making there. I tend to agree a little bit with mikezoo, except a few bugs and ocasional crashes I'm pretty happy with Zb3.1 . Well I agree shortning the core modeling functions and workflows would be necessary at this point, but I can't agree it is the big pile of shit some apparently say it is....
It is a free update to all prior zbrush users.
Technically you can produce an entire (static) asset from start to finish using ZBrush alone already. The main thing that would suck right now would be the UVs since there's no way of doing an intelligent unwrap afaik...
Great news (how does pixologic makes any money?) lol
And yes Mop, with the 3.12 improvements, some better paiting tools, brushes and color layers would be enought for me at this point. ah an improved retopology (why not a single button click instead of that workaround?)
And as far as software companies go pix is doing pretty good IMO, I mean updates are released for free and they release incremental tools after a release like transpose master and subtool master.
I also dont see how "Catering to movie studios" could hurt us at all, with the current level of detail we're putting into our highpoly models a lot of the skills and tools are overlapping..... we bake our shit down to a normal map but we already have like 20 different ways for doing that, even free awesome ways.
the biggest issue I've come across is remembering to press the freaking T button to go into edit mode.. there's a lot of little crap like that. once you get used to it it's fine but it can really throw new users through a loop!
ah
now we're talking the same language
yeah. 3dcoat i know
ah
now we're talking the same language
yeah. 3dcoat i know
Again adding a disclaimer that this is not based on my using the tool, just talking about what I've heard from some who have. So take this as hearsay.
I love you.
I had no idea that the 3.12 update was so full of awesome wonder whats taking them so long to get that on windows.
other than that i like the ui once you are used to it it's pretty straight forward, i mean who really needs all thos ebuttons? just ignore them :P
as a new feature i'd like to see nhanced retopo tools, sculpting works just fine, retopo could definitely be improved
never will understand software preference.. i use what the person that is paying me tells me to so it will fit in their pipe, and my art looks the same weather it came out of zbrush or mudbox same goes for max, maya, or xsi. if your a 3d artist and you get all picky about what app you use then you are going to miss lots of job opportunities, not to mention possibly fucking your whole company if a certain app would help with tools or animation pipelines.
here is a secret that people that only use 1 app don't know....
they all do the same shit.
noobz..
Of course over time I've regretted my decision many times since zbrush has far more options than mudbox, and mudbox 1.0 was really a giant piece of cow manure. The 2009 version is a bit better.
So maybe when this new release comes out I'll stop being lazy and see if there's a method to their madness. So to refresh my memory, to zoom in I have to press Alt+F1+Home, tap the top of my head, circle my stomach, and click twice on each corner of my screen while spinning the wheel as fast as I can?
this wins
Is the rightclick/leftclick bug you're talking about where your finger accidentally goes retarded for a second on your wacom pen...causing zbrush to lock up? Not sure if that's what you're referring to, but that happens to be quite a bit.
And yea, I'm actually kinda surprised people are still complaining about the UI.
When I throw Zbrush into the mix, it all becomes unbalanced. I spend minutes fighting against a backwards material system that just wont remember my settings, have to click layers at random to toggle their visibility, I am forced to work at slower framerates when I zoom in (hello!!) and somehow I find the visual feedback provided by Z to be misleading in general.
So I don't really mind the interface after all ('just ignore it' yup I agree with that), and there is some very clever things I really love in Z (MRGBZgrabber for instance is a fantastic thing to have, very smart tool). But most of the time I feel like I am working through a screen of smoke in Z, and that's the kind of stuff I would love to see them fix, but I am pretty sure they wont
to quote the zb overview on their site : ' . . . and intuitive workflows. Built with in an elegant interface . . . '
where the fuck they cook that shit up from i'll never know. they're like the quintessential nerds that can solve endless math equations but don't know their stink ass from their elbow when it comes to actual human interaction
fuck these motherfuckers. the fact that their app could be massively improved with just a few small tweaks. yet they seem to be the only folks who don't see it. dicks
i view this perpetual free upgrade bullshit simply as a way for them to drop any responsibility / accountability to their users. a mechanism to enable them their apparent bubble vacuum development approach. i would gladly pay a reasonable price for point upgrades that focus and cull so much dicky shit this app is riddled with
little faith in v4
It's true. They're just tools to do our jobs. That approach has been said and used from artists in our industry for a while now and it works. It should be everyone's approach. No brainer.
However, if something isn't quite as accessible as other applications (re: tools) out there for us to use, you're bound to hear about the non-love people have for it. pior's point is somewhat how I felt about zBrush when I wanted to learn a sculpting tool. It seems to fight against the grain of other applications out there that are also integral parts of a work flow. So when we're used to certain actions, habits, processes and logic its only natural to resent something that goes against that.
I think, for me anyway, thats how Mudbox found its acclaim. Analyze the market, see how people are working, and build around that. I've yet to look up a tutorial for Mudbox because, so far, my experiences with other tools I use daily apply to this application. I cannot say the same for zBrush. (Call it a learning curve or whatever it may be.)
Time is money.
Arsh's point also rang strong, in that really we should learn whatever the tools it is our employer wants us to use as to stir the workflows pot. It would be nice, though, if all app's were built with accessibility in mind.
-2cents from a non zBrush user.
what i was referring to more is that the whole zbrush vs mudbox debate stinks of the old max vs maya debates that happened a lot back in the days before autodesk owed everything and frankly nothing constructive ever came out of the debates. bottom line is that when i started doing 3d i thought max was the shit, every time i opened maya it gave me a headache and i couldn't understand why anyone would use it, but it was because i was a noob, and i was afraid to leave my comfort zone.
now i am working in maya and houdini and it makes sense because of what i am doing with them. production is king, not your preference in packages. i find using any app on a daily basis for an extended amount of time makes the interface become transparent and you just work, it doesn't matter if its 3d modeling or running the register at the supermarket, it becomes second nature and all the crying and complaining is pretty much just the inexperience talking.
the only thing i ever find myself wanting out of every package is more stability, crashing always sucks.
That said, why I like it being different is that it is very much a different program and experience. Once you finish modeling you know you're gonna jump into zbrush and be operating in a completely different way, keeping your workflow interesting. Personally I would go nuts with boredom if I was using one or two very similar programs for my whole workflow. As an example, Photoshop has been essentially the same program for many years, and there's never been a need for anything else. I get incredibly bored of using photoshop because the experience is always the same, it's monotonous. At the very least, I applaud them for trying something new, though from what I head they should probably be more receptive to criticism.
As for accessability, Pixologic does a great job providing support, the only thing inaccesible is the fact that zbrush is so unique in its approach.
I also totally agree with Arsh that once you use them enough, the software just becomes second nature.
For the record, I like Mudbox just fine too, though I haven't used it too extensively.