How to Post on the Internet
mod
I want to talk about the common questions and misconceptions inexperienced artists have, either when they start working towards becoming an artists or when they join Polycount. This is a culmination of advice I've given to people over the years and really, a bunch of stuff I wish someone would have told me when I started out.
That's cool, what software did you use?
What software/tool/workflow is best?
Not all feedback is created equal
OMG this rules
I'm in a rut
Improvement is a gradual process
Impostor syndrome, you're the only one who has it
The industry is a very small place
Polycount is an art site, after all
Do I need a degree to get a job?
Do I need experience to get a job?
You made it this far?
That's cool, what software did you use?
This is something you may want to say; however, it's akin to asking a photographer what camera they use, or an architect which ruler they use. It implies that the reason something is impressive is because of the tools they use, not the talent they have nor the effort they put in.
Now, this isn't to say that you shouldn't ask questions about tools, software, workflows, etc (start here). You definitely should, but a detailed question will give you a much better chance of getting an answer, and the more effort you put into your inquiry, the more effort the person answering is likely to put in. "What software did you use?" is such a vague question that it's very difficult to understand what you want to know. For instance:
Q: What software did you use?
A: Maya (if you get a response at all)
What was accomplished here?
Q: Can you tell me about your workflow for creating the hair? Do you place the planes manually or do you have some sort of script or tool to do it? Did you paint your alpha mask by hand or bake it from geometry?
A: Interesting question, let me tell you about...X...Y...and...Z
Again, with a more detailed question, you're probably going to get a more informative answer. You can't expect someone to put in a lot of effort to explain what they are doing if you can't be bothered putting in effort to ask about it.
Now, this isn't to say that you shouldn't ask questions about tools, software, workflows, etc (start here). You definitely should, but a detailed question will give you a much better chance of getting an answer, and the more effort you put into your inquiry, the more effort the person answering is likely to put in. "What software did you use?" is such a vague question that it's very difficult to understand what you want to know. For instance:
Q: What software did you use?
A: Maya (if you get a response at all)
What was accomplished here?
Q: Can you tell me about your workflow for creating the hair? Do you place the planes manually or do you have some sort of script or tool to do it? Did you paint your alpha mask by hand or bake it from geometry?
A: Interesting question, let me tell you about...X...Y...and...Z
Again, with a more detailed question, you're probably going to get a more informative answer. You can't expect someone to put in a lot of effort to explain what they are doing if you can't be bothered putting in effort to ask about it.
What software/tool/workflow is best?
This is an unanswerable question, what it really comes down to is what are you most comfortable using. Rather than knowing what the best tool is, you should know how to use as many of the tools you're likely going to need to use on a job. This makes you a more attractive potential hire, as you can hit the ground running.
Basic standards are Max and Maya for traditional 3d stuff, with Modo being very popular these days as well. Its best to know how to use both Max and Maya on a basic level, as nearly every studio uses one of these. You can get educational copies of each from Autodesk for free, so there is no excuse not to know them. Basic modeling skills will apply to any app, but you should know how to operate the interface of the big two.
Zbrush and Mudbox are the standards for sculpting, learn one or the other. Photoshop is required knowledge for everyone, it's the standard in every studio. Quixel's Suite and Substance Designer/Painter and becoming more and more popular for texturing.
How many triangles should I use for X?Basic standards are Max and Maya for traditional 3d stuff, with Modo being very popular these days as well. Its best to know how to use both Max and Maya on a basic level, as nearly every studio uses one of these. You can get educational copies of each from Autodesk for free, so there is no excuse not to know them. Basic modeling skills will apply to any app, but you should know how to operate the interface of the big two.
Zbrush and Mudbox are the standards for sculpting, learn one or the other. Photoshop is required knowledge for everyone, it's the standard in every studio. Quixel's Suite and Substance Designer/Painter and becoming more and more popular for texturing.
This is another unanswerable question. It depends on a nearly unlimited amount of factors, like the style of the game, the target hardware, the importance of the asset, how close you can ge, how many other objects are on screen, the specific engine, what sort of shaders you're using, etc. Determining what is a reasonable amount of geometry to use is a skill in itself, and if you're unsure, ask, but be as specific as possible when you do.
How many triangles for a character? Is a terrible way to ask this question.
How many triangles for a current generation realistic character that needs to hold up to cinematic closeup views in UE4 on high-end pcs? Is a good way to ask this question.
What is the secret to overnight success?How many triangles for a character? Is a terrible way to ask this question.
How many triangles for a current generation realistic character that needs to hold up to cinematic closeup views in UE4 on high-end pcs? Is a good way to ask this question.
There is no secret, you can''t fake it. There is no shortcut to putting in the work. To improve, you need to make one asset from start to finish, and then do this again as many times as physically possible. The only reliable source of improvement is unrelenting determination.
Is X software/tool/workflow cheating?
No, shut your mouth. Tools are merely tools, some idiot thought photography was cheating 100 years ago. Do you want to be that idiot? Everyone cheats, you need to use the tools available to you to the best of your ability to stay current in the games industry.
However, using a very minimal workflow to focus on fundamental skills can be a very productive exercise.
Do you know where I can find a tutorial for X?However, using a very minimal workflow to focus on fundamental skills can be a very productive exercise.
Maybe, but you can't rely on tutorials for everything. Critical thinking and experimentation is one of the most important skills you could possibly have. Remember, at some point, the people who write the tutorials had to figure out how to do the thing.
Will you make a tutorial for me?
No, I will not. Its not because I don't like you, I'm sure you're a swell guy, but writing custom tutorials for people is an enormous amount of work.
I'm not good enough to post
There is no "you must be this good to post" sign next to the new thread or reply buttons. Polycount, and every community, thrive by having a diverse pool of users with various knowledge and skill levels.
I'm not good enough to give feedback
This is also not a thing. If you have some input to give, feel free to give it. Its up to the artist to decide if what you're saying applies or has value to their work. Giving feedback is a great way to start forging relationships as well.
I'm not good enough to finish my work/what's the point?
The key to improving with any task is to follow through from start to finish. If you don't finish your stuff, you won't truly understand the creation process. You should strive to get better with every finished project, and the more projects you finish, the more improvement you will see.
Everyone has to start somewhere, behind every amazing artist there is a person who used to suck, who worked until he/she was able to produce excellent content.
Nobody gave me any feedback so I stopped postingEveryone has to start somewhere, behind every amazing artist there is a person who used to suck, who worked until he/she was able to produce excellent content.
The best way to get feedback is to post frequent updates. Giving up because you don't get any or enough feedback is a self-fulfilling prophecy, if you stop posting you certainly won't get any feedback.
Its important to remember that feedback isn''t only about you. Writing detailed criticism takes a lot of work. Everyone has a limited amount of time, so you need to show you're worth the effort, by working hard and being committed to improving your art. Again, posting frequent updates is a good start, but taking feedback seriously and trying to apply it to your work goes a long way too.
You might not suck enough for feedbackIts important to remember that feedback isn''t only about you. Writing detailed criticism takes a lot of work. Everyone has a limited amount of time, so you need to show you're worth the effort, by working hard and being committed to improving your art. Again, posting frequent updates is a good start, but taking feedback seriously and trying to apply it to your work goes a long way too.
There are two types of artists that are very easy to give feedback to. The first is the total noob, whose work is so bad that errors are easy to spot, literally anyone can tell them why that Pokemon looks wrong. The second is the really awesome, experienced artist, often the work is so good that you don't have anything critical to say, so positive compliments are given.
So what if you're just sort of... okay? A lot of people fall in this category, and it can be hard to get noticed. Again there isn''t any secret or shortcut here, you need to be persistent and build relationships, give people a reason to get involved, show improvement over time and people will take notice. Posting your work frequently and leaving feedback in other threads is the best way to start cultivating relationships with other artists.
So what if you're just sort of... okay? A lot of people fall in this category, and it can be hard to get noticed. Again there isn''t any secret or shortcut here, you need to be persistent and build relationships, give people a reason to get involved, show improvement over time and people will take notice. Posting your work frequently and leaving feedback in other threads is the best way to start cultivating relationships with other artists.
Not all feedback is created equal
Getting feedback is great, but not all feedback is necessarily good advice. As an artist, your job isn''t to mindlessly apply any and all feedback to your work, but to think critically and find out the best way to use feedback to improve your skills.
However, this is not an excuse to ignore feedback. Even if you disagree with feedback (and you will at some point), you should always try take something of value from said feedback. You should even try implementing feedback you don't agree with on occasion, you may find that despite what you thought, it improves your work.
However, this is not an excuse to ignore feedback. Even if you disagree with feedback (and you will at some point), you should always try take something of value from said feedback. You should even try implementing feedback you don't agree with on occasion, you may find that despite what you thought, it improves your work.
OMG this rules
One last thought on feedback; telling someone how great their work is, even if it truly is, is not particularly productive. It does little more than stroke egos, and most artists appreciate criticism, regardless of skill level. If you're going to post a compliment, try to at least tell the person what you like about the piece, rather than OMG AWESOME I JUST JIZZED IN THIS THREAD, for instance:
OMG this is so cool +1 - This adds nothing to the conversion.
OMG this is so cool +1. I really love how dynamic the pose is and the locational scratches on the armor, which add an element of believably to the material! - This is a compliment well done, praise has been given, but not only that, the artist knows why you like the work, they know what they've done well which is very important in identifying where they have been successful in their work. If you get praise but never any specific information, its much more difficult to know what has worked well and what you should focus on for further improvement.
OMG this is so cool +1 - This adds nothing to the conversion.
OMG this is so cool +1. I really love how dynamic the pose is and the locational scratches on the armor, which add an element of believably to the material! - This is a compliment well done, praise has been given, but not only that, the artist knows why you like the work, they know what they've done well which is very important in identifying where they have been successful in their work. If you get praise but never any specific information, its much more difficult to know what has worked well and what you should focus on for further improvement.
I'm in a rut
Everyone has been there before. Try to find a new perspective, watch a movie, go to a gallery, go on a hike, go out and experience something and try to put those experiences into your work. Start a new project if you're stuck on something, but try not to continually start new projects because you're not happy with the results. Sometimes you just need to power through it and finish your task, despite how lackluster the result may be.
Improvement is a gradual process
Improving your art takes a lot of time and energy. Improvement is rarely seen on a day to day basis, more like a month to month or even year to year basis. You have to trust that the process works and keep at it, hoping to instantly improve after watching a tutorial or reading an article is simply setting yourself up for disappointment.
Impostor syndrome, you're the only one who has it
Do you ever get the feeling that secretly, you're a total hack and have no idea what you're doing? Yeah, everyone else does too. Its called impostor syndrome, and pretty much every artist feels it at some point. Personally, I worry about this frequently, I''ve worried about it so often and for so long that its easy to identify exactly what it is. Recognize it for what it is (irrational bullshit), and work through it.
In my career, there was never an "ah-hah now I'm good enough" moment where I felt I accomplished some sort of mythical goal. Don't let fantasies like "when I finally get good enough" prevent you from posting, finishing work, engaging with others or otherwise improving yourself.
In my career, there was never an "ah-hah now I'm good enough" moment where I felt I accomplished some sort of mythical goal. Don't let fantasies like "when I finally get good enough" prevent you from posting, finishing work, engaging with others or otherwise improving yourself.
The industry is a very small place
Seriously, don't be an asshole. Everyone on Polycount knows someone who knows someone. That someone may be a lead at a studio that you could get you a job, or prevent you from getting a job. Your public persona on Polycount is how many people may remember you, and you will likely be associated with the things you say. You want to be known for the work you do, not your controversial beliefs.
This isn''t to say that you can't be yourself, just remember that everything you say on the internet is permanent and searchable, and it is common practice to look at forum posts when vetting a potential hire. You should always be aware of how you're presenting yourself, as you're essentially in a very casual interview every time you post on Polycount, or really any public medium that is easy traced back to your real world self. Diamonds, and internet posts, are forever.
This isn''t to say that you can't be yourself, just remember that everything you say on the internet is permanent and searchable, and it is common practice to look at forum posts when vetting a potential hire. You should always be aware of how you're presenting yourself, as you're essentially in a very casual interview every time you post on Polycount, or really any public medium that is easy traced back to your real world self. Diamonds, and internet posts, are forever.
Polycount is an art site, after all
Do I need a degree to get a job?
As an artist? No, you don't. As an engineer, it is much more important to have a degree. There are reasons you may want to get a degree (such as higher lifetime salary, or immigration/visa concerns) and also reasons you may not want to get a degree (debt - especially in the US, time you could be spending being awesome/doing contract work). More on this here.
Do I need experience to get a job?
No, but it helps. Those X years of experience requirements you see on job postings? Those are there mostly to weed out the noobs. If your work is good enough, most studios will consider you for a position.
Doing freelance work is a great way to get experience without actually having a job in the industry. Indie teams are often looking for talent and may by more suitable to inexperienced artists than larger studios. Mods are also a good way to get valuable experience, provided the project has solid organization and is run with some professionalism (having specific tasks and deadlines is a must).
Doing freelance work is a great way to get experience without actually having a job in the industry. Indie teams are often looking for talent and may by more suitable to inexperienced artists than larger studios. Mods are also a good way to get valuable experience, provided the project has solid organization and is run with some professionalism (having specific tasks and deadlines is a must).
You made it this far?
I'm impressed! It's important to mention that this is not a list of rules to live by. There are few absolutes here, these points are intended to make you think.
TL;DR: be nice, work hard and don't lurk.
Replies
Haha, yeah. Really that was the point of this and most of the longer writeups I do here, so I have something I can simply link to instead of typing the same stuff over and over. :poly142:
What software did you use to type it?
Seriously... no matter how good something is.. we don't need to see the same image spammed 3 times on one page... just address the person by name if the art is on the same page.... ffs
"Is X software/tool/workflow cheating? No, shut your mouth" Seems unnecessary. I don't think you want anyone to feel bad or scared to ask a question on these forums.
"The industry is a very small place: Seriously, don’t be an asshole." Ehh.. could be re-worded. Yes, you're being blunt and honest and I agree with that statement, just think it could say something like "act professional".
I appreciate the write up, definitely is a great guide and covers a lot of redundant things asked around here.
I agree here.
It should read, 'Seriously, don't be an asshole. Act professional.'
BTW, what software did you use to write this ? Did you use MS Word ? or Notepad ? or just the WYSIWYG Editor ?
Hey, thanks for the feedback.
Interestingly enough, I think this sort of wraps into one of my points. So, on the one hand, you should always be aware of how what you post reflects. On the other hand, you shouldn't self censor yourself to the point that you lose your personality. The crass stuff was left in there for fun, because I think its silly, and at the end of the day I am perfectly ok with being associated with everything I wrote, thats the important part, in my mind at least.
thanks a lot for writing this down, you just took a lot of weight off my shoulders.
weirdly enough, these rules you just listed applies a lot to what an indie dev does and i feel much better to hear that im not the only one who feels like that, specially when it comes to feedback.
so, yeah, thanks again for taking your time to write that down
This is so awesome to hear. After posting this, the first thing that happens to me is fear and doubt, what if everyone thinks this whole thing is a stupid, worthless rant? Impostor syndrome in full force. So yeah, I'm really glad that you found the post helpful enough to create an account, and I hope you continue to post!
No more lurking!
Awesome writing, will share a lot !
No more lurking,yay !
Unfortunately it's not being produced anymore so you'll have to get really lucky with finding a secondhand model, but for writing anything extremely long it's definitely the least likely to give you repetitive stress injury.
It got me thinking that we need a: "How to talk communicate on skype without wasting peoples time"
Lol, like you know when someone will start off with a "Hi, Can I ask you a question?"
You just well damm asked a question, wasted the recipients time to read said question and wasting their time to have to replay and say "Ask." Just ask the question and be done with it. Beating around the bush on skype just gets you ignored/removed.
umm... um... tacos! boobies!
there. now I feel like I at least contributed something. and yeah, this should totally be stickied!
It would be great if reading this was apart of the sign up page for Polycount or the registration email (At least I think there's a registration email, been a while since I signed up...) for new members.
This could really alleviate a lot of those threads (You know the ones) that we all love to see in General discussion.
Great! I'll get two of that set and write with my hands AND feet!
Now I can post long writeups all over the internet!
That and one other point are things I wish someone would have beat me about the head with. The other is comparing yourself to others and getting that flipping tables feeling. The only person you have to be better than is yourself from yesterday.
amazing write up
I feel like artists should communicate more about their feelings. Whenever I see a great artist that doesn't express fear it's like I feel down because I do. haha xD
In the end it's a conversation - not a grading paper. Posters will learn about HOW to criticise and nurture talent in others through posting and gain just as much value through it as those who's work is being commented on.
Bravo.
Guess I can remove the General Discussion from my bookmark shelf now
EDIT: I will add, that I think it's great you say "Dont be an asshole" over "Act professional".
When I come to PC, it's quite important for me that people aren't assholes, but I also value the LACK of super tight professionalism on the forum. It's nice to have a friendly casual chat, and not always be afraid you aren't professional enough in your attitude. TL;DR: Great job, and thanks for taking time to do this!
Srsly tho, awesome thread this should probably be stickied. Thanks for taking the time to write it
However, I'm not trying to collectively piss in everyones cheerios here, but why weren't such things common sense before EQ had to step in and spend his time sorting things out? I'm sure we're all mature enough to be honest with each other about feedback, and not just say 2 words that don't help anyone like "good job", people are free to do that by the way, but if you're thinking of something constructively critical to say and those thoughts aren't going to your fingertips than you're depriving an artist of feedback they could very well use.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, if something is really bothering you or you find something wrong about someone's work that can be put into a constructive way, then do so. I get the feeling alot of people sit idly by and continue lurking rather than really be involved into the community in a positive way.
And then there's the other side of the coin that feels compelled to post every single thing on their minds, whether it be technical questions, "shower" thoughts of 3D and art in general and common concerns. I get that the individual might want the "here and now" of the discussion but it's most likely a drop in the already oceanic proportions of discussions we've already had on polycount alone. Your answer may very well be a google search away.
I was hoping things wouldn't get so 'ruffled in the feathers' as it were to the point of laying down some ground rules from the moderators and making an FAQ of general discussions. After all this is a forum that prides itself on creative open thought and creation itself. So I guess the moral in all of this is think before you post, or think about posting in a contributive way.
I'm probably guilty of some of these.
One thing that annoys me is when people ask questions that can easily be answered by spending a minute or 2 on Google.
Sorry for but these are the ones I can not agree with no matter what. Just wanted to tell.
How so?
If you are doing something new and fancy, I agree, it is nice to know what technique\software\workflow that person used.
But if we are talking about normal established workflows, why is it important if someone used maya or max for it, for example?
Good catch. The tools you use do matter.
Maybe you see a work very detailed that you are surprised the guy managed to finish it with very limited time. Maybe he chose his tools wisely so that he could save time without dropping his quality ?
Choosing tools is part of the experience you get during your life. And like any experience you can share it by telling your preferences and why you preferred it in the first place.
That's why I personally think the question is more relevant the better you get, and less relevant for a guy just starting out last week, posting his "first cube ever!".
If you are completely new, I think the whole software discussion just adds more confusion, and makes committing and really learning a tool less motivational. You have to focus on the basics at this stage, in my opinion. You character doesn't suck because you chose Mudbox over ZBrush, but because you dont understand anatomy and form - just as an example.
I fell into that trap that the first few years, and it slowed me down, because I was constantly jumping between tools, and having to learn them, instead of just sticking with something, and actually finish the project I intended, learning the thought behind it, rather than the buttons to push.
However, as experience grows, I think the question of tools and workflow becomes more interesting, because this is where you understand the overall process, and are becoming more interested in where you can shave off some additional time, or where you can get those 5% extra quality.
This post just turned into a big brain fart.
Is that something along the lines you are thinking? Do you agree or disagree?
I am fairly sure most of Polycount does this if not almost all. Me included.
Really, if everybody would consider these things a bit more, Polycount might become a bit more of an interesting place like it used to be.
I don't think you can fault anyone for it. I used to do it, probably still do. I'll try to limit myself to constructive posts from now on.
Might be good to have a reminder above the post window to only post constructive posts?
Saying that somebody should "shut up" or that somebody is an idiot just because his belief is incompatible with yours is not only rude and disrespectful, but it also displays a lack of tolerance, understanding, and appreciation of the fact that every person is different and is free to have his own opinion.
Perhaps you should follow your own advice and edit your post, so those who will do a search on you in the future will have a better opinion of you.