I want to talk about the common questions and misconceptions inexperienced artists have, either when they start working towards becoming an artists or when they join Polycount. This is a culmination of advice I've given to people over the years and really, a bunch of stuff I wish someone would have told me when I started out.
That's cool, what software did you use?
This is something you may want to say; however, it's akin to asking a photographer what camera they use, or an architect which ruler they use. It implies that the reason something is impressive is because of the tools they use, not the talent they have nor the effort they put in.
Now, this isn't to say that you shouldn't ask questions about tools, software, workflows, etc (
start here). You definitely should, but a detailed question will give you a much better chance of getting an answer, and the more effort you put into your inquiry, the more effort the person answering is likely to put in. "What software did you use?" is such a vague question that it's very difficult to understand what you want to know. For instance:
Q: What software did you use?
A: Maya (if you get a response at all)
What was accomplished here?
Q: Can you tell me about your workflow for creating the hair? Do you place the planes manually or do you have some sort of script or tool to do it? Did you paint your alpha mask by hand or bake it from geometry?
A: Interesting question, let me tell you about...X...Y...and...Z
Again, with a more detailed question, you're probably going to get a more informative answer. You can't expect someone to put in a lot of effort to explain what they are doing if you can't be bothered putting in effort to ask about it.
What software/tool/workflow is best?
This is an unanswerable question, what it really comes down to is what are you most comfortable using. Rather than knowing what the best tool is, you should know how to use as many of the tools you're likely going to need to use on a job. This makes you a more attractive potential hire, as you can hit the ground running.
Basic standards are Max and Maya for traditional 3d stuff, with Modo being very popular these days as well. Its best to know how to use both Max and Maya on a basic level, as nearly every studio uses one of these. You can get educational copies of each from Autodesk for free, so there is no excuse not to know them. Basic modeling skills will apply to any app, but you should know how to operate the interface of the big two.
Zbrush and Mudbox are the standards for sculpting, learn one or the other. Photoshop is required knowledge for everyone, it's the standard in every studio. Quixel's Suite and Substance Designer/Painter and becoming more and more popular for texturing.
How many triangles should I use for X?
This is another unanswerable question. It depends on a nearly unlimited amount of factors, like the style of the game, the target hardware, the importance of the asset, how close you can ge, how many other objects are on screen, the specific engine, what sort of shaders you're using, etc. Determining what is a reasonable amount of geometry to use is a skill in itself, and if you're unsure, ask, but be as specific as possible when you do.
How many triangles for a character? Is a terrible way to ask this question.
How many triangles for a current generation realistic character that needs to hold up to cinematic closeup views in UE4 on high-end pcs? Is a good way to ask this question.
What is the secret to overnight success?
There is no secret, you can''t fake it. There is no shortcut to putting in the work. To improve, you need to make one asset from start to finish, and then do this again as many times as physically possible. The only reliable source of improvement is unrelenting determination.
Is X software/tool/workflow cheating?
No, shut your mouth. Tools are merely tools, some idiot thought photography was cheating 100 years ago. Do you want to be that idiot? Everyone cheats, you need to use the tools available to you to the best of your ability to stay current in the games industry.
However, using a very minimal workflow to focus on fundamental skills can be a very productive exercise.
Do you know where I can find a tutorial for X?
Maybe, but you can't rely on tutorials for everything. Critical thinking and experimentation is one of the most important skills you could possibly have. Remember, at some point, the people who write the tutorials had to figure out how to do the thing.
Will you make a tutorial for me?
No, I will not. Its not because I don't like you, I'm sure you're a swell guy, but writing custom tutorials for people is an enormous amount of work.
I'm not good enough to post
There is no "you must be this good to post" sign next to the new thread or reply buttons. Polycount, and every community, thrive by having a diverse pool of users with various knowledge and skill levels.
I'm not good enough to give feedback
This is also not a thing. If you have some input to give, feel free to give it. Its up to the artist to decide if what you're saying applies or has value to their work. Giving feedback is a great way to start forging relationships as well.
I'm not good enough to finish my work/what's the point?
The key to improving with any task is to follow through from start to finish. If you don't finish your stuff, you won't truly understand the creation process. You should strive to get better with every finished project, and the more projects you finish, the more improvement you will see.
Everyone has to start somewhere, behind every amazing artist there is a person who used to suck, who worked until he/she was able to produce excellent content.
Nobody gave me any feedback so I stopped posting
The best way to get feedback is to post frequent updates. Giving up because you don't get any or enough feedback is a self-fulfilling prophecy, if you stop posting you certainly won't get any feedback.
Its important to remember that feedback isn''t only about you. Writing detailed criticism takes a lot of work. Everyone has a limited amount of time, so you need to show you're worth the effort, by working hard and being committed to improving your art. Again, posting frequent updates is a good start, but taking feedback seriously and trying to apply it to your work goes a long way too.
You might not suck enough for feedback
There are two types of artists that are very easy to give feedback to. The first is the total noob, whose work is so bad that errors are easy to spot, literally anyone can tell them why that Pokemon looks wrong. The second is the really awesome, experienced artist, often the work is so good that you don't have anything critical to say, so positive compliments are given.
So what if you're just sort of... okay? A lot of people fall in this category, and it can be hard to get noticed. Again there isn''t any secret or shortcut here, you need to be persistent and build relationships, give people a reason to get involved, show improvement over time and people will take notice. Posting your work frequently and leaving feedback in other threads is the best way to start cultivating relationships with other artists.
Not all feedback is created equal
Getting feedback is great, but not all feedback is necessarily good advice. As an artist, your job isn''t to mindlessly apply any and all feedback to your work, but to think critically and find out the best way to use feedback to improve your skills.
However, this is not an excuse to ignore feedback. Even if you disagree with feedback (and you will at some point), you should always try take something of value from said feedback. You should even try implementing feedback you don't agree with on occasion, you may find that despite what you thought, it improves your work.
OMG this rules
One last thought on feedback; telling someone how great their work is, even if it truly is, is not particularly productive. It does little more than stroke egos, and most artists appreciate criticism, regardless of skill level. If you're going to post a compliment, try to at least tell the person what you like about the piece, rather than OMG AWESOME I JUST JIZZED IN THIS THREAD, for instance:
OMG this is so cool +1 - This adds nothing to the conversion.
OMG this is so cool +1. I really love how dynamic the pose is and the locational scratches on the armor, which add an element of believably to the material! - This is a compliment well done, praise has been given, but not only that, the artist knows why you like the work, they know what they've done well which is very important in identifying where they have been successful in their work. If you get praise but never any specific information, its much more difficult to know what has worked well and what you should focus on for further improvement.
I'm in a rut
Everyone has been there before. Try to find a new perspective, watch a movie, go to a gallery, go on a hike, go out and experience something and try to put those experiences into your work. Start a new project if you're stuck on something, but try not to continually start new projects because you're not happy with the results. Sometimes you just need to power through it and finish your task, despite how lackluster the result may be.
Improvement is a gradual process
Improving your art takes a lot of time and energy. Improvement is rarely seen on a day to day basis, more like a month to month or even year to year basis. You have to trust that the process works and keep at it, hoping to instantly improve after watching a tutorial or reading an article is simply setting yourself up for disappointment.
Impostor syndrome, you're the only one who has it
Do you ever get the feeling that secretly, you're a total hack and have no idea what you're doing? Yeah, everyone else does too. Its called
impostor syndrome, and pretty much every artist feels it at some point. Personally, I worry about this frequently, I''ve worried about it so often and for so long that its easy to identify exactly what it is. Recognize it for what it is (irrational bullshit), and work through it.
In my career, there was never an "ah-hah now I'm good enough" moment where I felt I accomplished some sort of mythical goal. Don't let fantasies like "when I finally get good enough" prevent you from posting, finishing work, engaging with others or otherwise improving yourself.
The industry is a very small place
Seriously, don't be an asshole. Everyone on Polycount knows someone who knows someone. That someone may be a lead at a studio that you could get you a job, or prevent you from getting a job. Your public persona on Polycount is how many people may remember you, and you will likely be associated with the things you say. You want to be known for the work you do, not your controversial beliefs.
This isn''t to say that you can't be yourself, just remember that everything you say on the internet is permanent and searchable, and it is common practice to look at forum posts when vetting a potential hire. You should always be aware of how you're presenting yourself, as you're essentially in a very casual interview every time you post on Polycount, or really any public medium that is easy traced back to your real world self. Diamonds, and internet posts, are forever.
Polycount is an art site, after all
Do I need a degree to get a job?
As an artist? No, you don't. As an engineer, it is much more important to have a degree. There are reasons you may want to get a degree (such as higher lifetime salary, or immigration/visa concerns) and also reasons you may not want to get a degree (debt - especially in the US, time you could be spending being awesome/doing contract work). More on this
here.
Do I need experience to get a job?
No, but it helps. Those X years of experience requirements you see on job postings? Those are there mostly to weed out the noobs. If your work is good enough, most studios will consider you for a position.
Doing freelance work is a great way to get experience without actually having a job in the industry. Indie teams are often looking for talent and may by more suitable to inexperienced artists than larger studios. Mods are also a good way to get valuable experience, provided the project has solid organization and is run with some professionalism (having specific tasks and deadlines is a must).
You made it this far?
I'm impressed! It's important to mention that this is not a list of rules to live by. There are few absolutes here, these points are intended to make you think.
TL;DR: be nice, work hard and don't lurk.
Replies
are you social-justice-warrioring right here?
its not like these are the official guidelines. its a post of someone who doesn't like to be asked the same questions over and over again.
also it is a pretty common thing for newcomers to ask for the used tools with the belief that the only thing holding them back from beeing as good as a pro is that they are using the wrong tool.
its like asking a painter what color he used or what graphite pen he is using, when realy its not about the pen, but about the painter.
and if you tell them that, they might think that you are trying to shut them out of your exclusive club because you are afraid they might replace you, so i think some drastic words might be nessecary to bring that point across and ensure everyone gets it.
Why anyone would take offense to the language is beyond me.
Haven't read the whole discussion but 4chan talk in Polycount makes me sick to my stomach.
i also disagree highly with the "dont ask about what tools im using". seems contradicting to the knowledge sharing intention of this forum.
HIGHLY agree with posting more than just "OMG amazing". take at least 1 min to add something contructive, and everyone benefits, IMO.
Kudos!
As a side note, my impostor syndrome is different though, if only I knew what software to use and how many triangles it has to be, I`d be good enough tho to not have impostor syndrome, can you make a tutorial on how to get rid of it ?
okay whatever,
i just find it funny how hes sort of telling him to shut up in different words for saying "shut up"
The impostor syndrome...Now I can name what I feel sometimes !
Yup, I couldn't agree any more. Everything you posted is pure gold but this stood out to me the most. Good stuff.
Yeah but if its the difference between saying 'good stuff' or not posting any reply at all, I'd still say post the compliment. It's not meaningless, it tells the person, its good, keep going, don't give up or start something different, it gives them a small glimse atleast that they're on the right track. Where as posting no reply at all to someone's work can give the individual the impression they're not producing work that is very good, that it could be anything from being almost good enough to be noticed to being so bad its not worth commenting on. Not replying is a much more ambiguous answer than to saying 'good job'.
Great post, EQ! Everyone should read this
I'd rather harsh critique from someone who kicks my ass at art than someone who blows smoke up it.
However, some artists are good, both in skill but also in reputation, which means that whatever they post will get 3 pages of "omg this is so good" even if that particular pieces might not be up to their normal standard - in my opinion at least. I guess that is what he wants to reduce, if I understand it correctly?
Just do it.
It's very easy to procrastinate, and I think the most common form of procrastination that happens once you've got over the initial hurdle of learning the software is reading and studying. People bury themselves in books and resources, reading forever and never getting on with ACTUAL work (i.e making art). It FEELS like work cos you're studying, learning etc, but ultimately you're doing fuck all.
I agree with this. Saying nothing at all is, most of the times, equal to not caring much about whatever piece it is. If you like the art you're seeing and feel like telling it to the person to make him/her happy then you should by all means do so. Don't forget that posting in someone's thread is a helpful way of alerting others to it as well since it moves it to the first page. In a way you're sharing it to people who mainly check the first page.
Also, don't forget that not all (technically)constructive feedback are universally good advice(as mentioned by yourself).
In my opinion the nonconstructive compliments outweigh the super subjective critique that won't help you much.
"Really like this character.the clothing is just crazy and it gives so much personality to your character.great piece !" or something like that.
If a n00b wants to see whether or not he is on the right track,a message like this is more helpful than the usual "holly wow" imho
also with the way forums work, with that practice popular pieces just get more popular while someone who might realy need some critique might go under.
because with every "OMG I LOVE THIS" you are bumping up someone who doesn't realy need the attention, while everyone else gets knocked down.
I agree man, I think we've all been there. On the other hand it's still nice to know people enjoy your work. Of course if there are 8 pages of "Damn son, noice" then you may not need to add a simple compliment.
To the comments about harsh words, I've addressed this once here: http://www.polycount.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2221814&postcount=14 but I feel like I should say a little more.
Yes, some of the language is harsh. The intent was not to write a perfectly friendly and politically correct article, because, well, we don't live in a perfectly friendly world. I really do not believe in self-censoring to the point that all humor and personality is removed from the work. I certainly could have done this, but I feel like the end result would have been less interesting, and less impactful. If harsh words spoken to a theoretical third person really upset your sensibilities, I think your sensibilities probably need to be offended. Polycount always has been, and I hope always will be a place to get honest, blunt feedback, and that to me, is a good thing. Sure, it can be a bit rough around the edges, but I will take rough over sugar coated every day.
To the poster who said I should follow my own feedback, I rather think I am. Again, the point of critique is not to simply apply all feedback that anyone gives regardless of if you think it will improve the work. When you give everyone say over your work, what you'll end up with is a pile of sterile, bland, blah. It may not offend anyone, but does that actually make it a better work? If we removed everything that could possibly offended someone from art and literature, do you think the world would be a better place?
Now, this isn't to say that I can't take anything from this feedback. I can and will, the most obvious point I can take is that it wasn't clear that my words were meant in jest, I thought I added enough little quips and jokes so the article would be read in a jovial manner, but thus is the crux of text based conversation, tone is so incredibly difficult to read.
RE: Praise is better than no response:
In the general sense I agree, however, lets look at what I wrote again.
Bold added for emphasis on this particular point. Praise is all well and good and often deserved, however, mindless praise serves no purpose what so ever. Here are two examples:
OMG this is so cool +1 - This adds nothing to the conversion.
OMG this is so cool +1. I really love how dynamic the pose is and the locational scratches on the armor, which add an element of believability to the material! - This is a compliment well done, praise has been given, but not only that, the artist knows why you like the work, they know what they've done well which is very important in identifying where they have been successful in their work. If you get praise but never any specific information, its much more difficult to know what has worked well and what you should focus on for further improvement.
I've added an extra bit to that point so it's more clear.
If you guys know me, and I hope you do, you would know that there are few people who spend more time talking about software, workflows, and technical theory. The intent of that point wasn't to say you shouldn't talk about software, but rather that your gut instinct should not be to ask what tools were used to create a piece of art work that you like. Asking how something was created, and better yet putting in some effort to ask a specific, detailed question about how something was constructed is always a good idea. In most things in life, the more effort you put into something the more you will get back, so "What software you use?" is really just the laziest possibly thing you can say. Put in some effort to ask a good question, and people who would otherwise ignore you might share some very useful information.
There is this typical problem with posting art online in general, where inexperienced artists often ask one of two questions; what software did you use? and can you make me a tutorial? Admittedly, this is less of a problem on Polycount, but it is a problem nonetheless.
I'll see if I can add a little more on that point to reduce confusion.
I actually have been thinking about creating a thread about this the last few days. It's an interesting topic, I think. Not just DKE, but comparing yourself with others, and judging your own skill in general.
So, now that I am completely off topic, I think I will create a thread about it instead
Exactly.
The point is not to prevent people from asking what software was used, but rather ask more intelligent questions or ask about theory over tools. Whether I moved the vert in Max or Maya is irrelevant most of the time. The question should be 'why' I chose to move it there.
Especially when they only want to know because they want their work to 'magically' look like yours. Sorry, it doesn't work that way.
The man who knows little thinks he knows a lot, but in reality he knows nothing. But the man who knows a lot knows in reality he knows nothing. People from any field can always become better, once somebody thinks their done, it essentially means they are comfortable at where they are at.
Well said, the 2nd type of comments can still be for anybody, a total novice can say what they like and keep the conversation going.
As for me even if I think something is really good, I always try to give feedback on the least optimal aspect of a piece that way my feedback will atleast tell the person that there is more to be worked on.
The only advice I would add is if you want to get feedback and people to pay attention to your work, pay attention to others', especially at your skill level. A lot of us old timers keep in touch and comment on each others' work because we were around and getting better at the same time, it's like having a graduating class in school.
So if you're a newbie, get to know other newbies and help each other out, because in five years or whatever some of you are going to have good jobs or be crazy good etc and you'll wish you'd have been friends.
EQ reached out to me and ended up getting me a job years ago because he knew me from polycount and knew I could be counted on. polycount can be worth as much socially as it is artistically, but you need to forge those connections.
To be told there is No Shortcut, is like finding salvation, lol.
Thanks.
Warren summed it up for me.
Most of this makes sense but I don't really get this one. How are you supposed to discover new tools and processes if you can't ask questions about how people have achieved things? As an example Snefer's recent threads about his weapon and environment speed models are amazing and introduced me to the power of modo and features like its rounded edge shader. Now do I think that if I go and spend a week learning modo that I'm going to be as good as Snefer or even be any closer to being as good? Of course not, it helped make his work faster though and that's useful to know
Having said that I can understand where you're coming from with the point and actually know the feeling but I really have to peg it up to insecurity on my own part rather than an actual problem with asking such questions. Ties nicely into your part about imposter syndrome actually.
I've always felt that imposter syndrome but didn't know it was a thing. Especially in other people. Makes sense that it does though.
I don't think there will ever be a time where I say "Woo I'm good enough now!"
Self doubt is sometimes good in an artist because it makes us want to do even better than our best work.
2nd, Exactly. It's basic interviewing skills, ask good questions get good answers. The people who tend to be good at learning on their own will ask and probe and experiment. The people who tend to be passive in their learning tend to think its "1 of 3 simple tricks the app does". The trick is in how that person overcame that problem, what they used wasn't nearly as important as how they came up with the solution. That's the mojo you want to try and distill.
Instead of: It should be:
A lot of the time if you're talking to the right people it opens up a deeper discussion. Those little chats lead to scripts, automation or just changing the process to work better.
A lot of the time the answer is: "A lot of hard manual repetitive labor that everyone else is too lazy to do". Which someone like me would pick their jaw up off the floor and say "that's nuts! You're amazing. I bet I could help you out with some scripting".
When it's just "What apps" no one really learns anything, no discussion is started, nothing but sack licking happens.
Yeah, absolutely, I briefly glossed over this but its probably worth having it's own point. The relationships you forge here are so important.
I updated that point, take another look and see if that clears it up. For the sake of brevity I wanted to keep each point to a relatively short statement, but it looks like that's causing confusion in a few places.
Hehe, I added basically the same thing Mark just wrote.
Yes, I very much agree with this. When I first started one of the great advices I got was to find people of similar skill level to compete with(and I think that the 'civil war' threads are a really good way of doing this; several artist friends of similar level in a friendly competition(even if they usually don't have any winners).)
I think that the "I'm not good enough to post feedback" point is great here as well because it's easier to give advice to people of similar skill than being afraid that the super experienced master artist would roll his/her eyes at your feedback.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot to commend you on this thread, EQ. Really nice list! You guys should sticky it!
Its cool when you see that many of these facts are actually applicable at many others work areas, but people think there is a easy way out to be awesome, some people just see somebody that a year ago was an "Ok..." guy and in the next year became someone with amazing skills and thinks there should be a easy way. These people actually sacrifice many things, leave work, and focus on discipline, study and responsibility, take this year to study hard to achieve this goal, you need to work very hard in the end.
You need to devote every moment, playing games don't help much to improve your skills (I wish it could help more, but in the end to me games help only to inspire and make me think "I want to do something like this" then i quit the game and go to study).
Good luck everyone!
Personally, the idea of commenting on someone's piece who is far better than me felt fake. Another form of impostor. Sure there's some benefit of adorning the mask of who you'd like to be as sort of a force pulling you forward but I'm very careful to present myself honestly. It's cool to learn that as long as I do that I can still contribute.
Thanks again for this man, really helped
I think the points you have made are generally very good advice. Obviously everyone is different and may disagree with various points, but on the whole can draw good, universal points from the post.
*getting ready to be banned from polycount*
Its a Leica M3, never used one myself but I've heard that it is a good camera. Sometimes this works, if you bump into a nerd like me who really wants to tell you about the thing. :poly142:
We made it a sticky last night but felt that it would get more traction as a floating thread for right now. Will be stickied and archived soon.
I don't see it here as much as other places on the net, but +1 to critical thinking versus reliance on tutorials. I've watched people over the years come back over and over requesting some specific tutorial to do something generic, as if tying the left shoe was fundamentally different than the right shoe.