Giving feedback when it isn't asked for
polycounter
So I just had someone on another site blow up on me when I tried to give them some constructive criticism. I'm still a little shaken up about it. Their reasoning was that they didn't ask me for feedback, and that they have trusted artists and books that they consult when they are looking to improve. They went on to say that I am a stranger and my feedback isn't welcome because I'm not a professional (I technically am, started a new job last month. Just not a veteran).
For the seasoned pros here, you know your stuff. Do you get miffed when someone who you consider to be on a lower artistic-level gives constructive criticism or points out something that is amiss? If you do, why? If not, why not?
I'm just trying to understand this. It's possible that it was a cultural difference. I'm always very straight forward and open about things, and typically I expect that from other people. I don't like beating around the bush or putting people through a gauntlet before I consider their feedback worthy of my consideration. Some people are very shy and don't like to give out feedback to other artists, especially when it isn't explicitly asked for.
Is it rude to give feedback to an artist that isn't asking for it? Is it rude not to, especially when you feel that you can help and they seem to be struggling? Am I being pretentious or egotistical in thinking that my advice is something that they want or need? Perhaps the feedback I'm giving comes off as harsh or insulting?
I just want to hear some thoughts on this, maybe it'll calm my nerves as I understand it more.
For the seasoned pros here, you know your stuff. Do you get miffed when someone who you consider to be on a lower artistic-level gives constructive criticism or points out something that is amiss? If you do, why? If not, why not?
I'm just trying to understand this. It's possible that it was a cultural difference. I'm always very straight forward and open about things, and typically I expect that from other people. I don't like beating around the bush or putting people through a gauntlet before I consider their feedback worthy of my consideration. Some people are very shy and don't like to give out feedback to other artists, especially when it isn't explicitly asked for.
Is it rude to give feedback to an artist that isn't asking for it? Is it rude not to, especially when you feel that you can help and they seem to be struggling? Am I being pretentious or egotistical in thinking that my advice is something that they want or need? Perhaps the feedback I'm giving comes off as harsh or insulting?
I just want to hear some thoughts on this, maybe it'll calm my nerves as I understand it more.
Replies
You still improved by noticing things about their art when they didn't. Frankly being rude about someone's feedback you don't agree with(which you don't always have to listen to critiques!) Is just a sign of being an arse
Overall he seemed like a cool friendly guy.
But when I pointed out something minor in his work that wasn't right (in my opinion at least) he got butthurt as fuck.
Started saying sarcastic stuff like "let's see you do it better, I'm sure you'll do a great job", and wouldn't let it go for 20 minutes.
I didn't mean to diss his work at all but he took it so personally.
I stood there completely dumbfounded since until that time all the veterans I would meet were really humble and open minded, always willing to improve.
Well, turns out it's not always the case.
So I guess that from now on I'll avoid giving unwanted feedback to veterans unless I know that they can handle it.
If people are taking the time to offer advice then appreciate it, there's tons of other artists that would welcome that critique.
I appreciate anyone who comes by my threads and posts critique, even if its absolutely tearing my work apart; I am able to spot flaws others can see but I myself cannot after staring at it for hours on end...
Don't get put off just because of one dick.
Well ... potentially, yeah. I've personally met a couple of very experienced artists at extremely well-regarded studios who do/have done exactly that. Just avoid them.
I wish art forums would innovate and add icons under avatar image that would indicate:
-age group
- if they have a mental disability
- if they're open to unsolcited art crits
- mood indicators: "drunk" "high" "psychotic"
I'll chime in anyway. It depends on a number of things for me:
- I do want whoever gives me crits to have some knowledge of what they're talking about. A lot of gamers with zero knowledge about game development and the difficulties that come with it often says how hard can it be, add that, it shouldnt take long, etc. Same thing applies to art creation, if its an outrageous crit stemming from lack of knowledge on the subject, Im less likely to take the crit seriously. Any feedback on this website is pretty much awesome, there are people here with similar interests but varying skills, that doesn't matter all that much to me. Most people hare are knowledgeable and have useful things to say most of the time.
- How they say things/deliver the crit matters to me as well. I dont really care for people who are full of themselves. Example: This might make it better/if you try this compared to: This is going to make it a lot better, do it. Dont act like you know better, plain and simple.
- What is my personal vision for the art? In the end it's your work (assuming it's not in a studio). Say I'm making a car. I want it to look completely new, right out of the factory. The most professional car modeler/texturer in the world comes along and says it would probably look better with rust in some places. I would appreciate him taking the time and I would take his crits seriously, but his ideas simply wont fit the vision I have for the project.
That said, this is how I process criticism internally. I would never blow up on someone for their opinion. If its really crappy crits I tend to just ignore it.
If it is some guy / girl doing art for the love of art, in their own time, then I wouldn't say anything they didn't ask for unless it was positive.
Also it's not always what you say, but HOW you say it.
They didn't take well to critiquing! The funny thing is, the Planetside 2 art director is very active on the forums and players get butt-hurt at him, calling out his credentials.
And those that get snarky over critiques, just consign them to the arrogant prick bin. Don't fret over it.
indeed
Honest critiques by talented artists are worth their weight in gold.
If it's a forum for something unrelated to art and someone posts a piece of art, I wouldn't bother commenting.
I made a comment on a cghub post once saying more or less that while I really liked the piece the presentation was hurting it due to poor lighting and big detail differences re: armor vs flesh, etc. And then an honest question about texel-ratio for one of the props that wasn't even close to the character. The (maybe-not-well-known but extremely popular franchise) artist had my post removed. I can only assume that's because all the others were overly positive.
That being said, there is some truth to what the he (might not be a he but I'll call them a he) said - you are a stranger. You do not know him, his goals, what he is already aware of, etc. And there are many times when I think if people stuck to artists they know personally (or at least can talk to on a more personal 1:1 level) and other references for study, that they would improve far faster than getting hung up listening to random people online. Even if someone stops and gives you critique - do they often care to elaborate? If OP reached out more personally, would they give them the time to explain in more detail, or do a paintover to illustrate their point? Sometimes, perhaps, but many times it's a stranger passing through, pointing a finger, and then walking away.
If he wanted only to stick to feedback from friends, he should have not posted and shown it to his friends instead. I do understand not necessarily looking for critique from people online - esepcially certain online communities, or during certain stages of work. But if that's the case, you don't open the door.
As others have said, if it's a fan forum, fan-art, that sort of thing - not something generally art related, then it's usually people posting to get ass pats from friends. Folks who exist in their closed off little circles where they can be great at drawing and nobody will tell them otherwise. If it was one such place, I still don't think you did anything wrong, but it's something to keep in mind.
I want to stress this is super important. I recently had a fine art artist tell me that my (honestly, I swear, very gentle) advice on their work was actually really disheartening and discouraging. You might call it an attitude problem or stubbornness, But after we talked about it, things seemed very simple. They where unconfident trying something new, I pointed out a bunch of failings without saying much nice. And it really affected them, obviously. But this thing that made total sense in the real world and we moved past quickly, is much harder to pinpoint online.
As pegbird said, you post in a professional environment, or you ask for critique, then get ready for it. In a more casual environment, or a traditional art environment, I think you do have to double check that this person is looking for critique.
TL;DR: Polycount taught me how to crit darn good, but maybe it's not always needed.
Also this, at the end of the day.
Probably because CG-hub serves as a sort of second portfolio to some artists - and why have a poor product review on your website? Can't say I agree with them, but it's not terrible thinking, just pragmatic.
I guess the rule of thumb is to not give feedback to total strangers unless they ask for it, and if you know them and want to help out then there's no harm in giving some constructive criticism.
I don't feel like my feedback was harsh, but it may have been. They deleted the comment so I won't ever know. But it's possible that I didn't give them the old compliment sandwich and I may have stepped on their foot as a result.
welcome to the internet. Bare in mind that you are about to enter the world of butt hurts, your critiques are not welcome to many here.
with that in mind, I would suggest you all to start critiquing pnp more often because all I see there is you are cherishing the threads that are filled with great art killing the threads of the ones who actually require the critiques. I am a butt hurt in this matter.
if it makes you feel any better, good critiques can come from anywhere. Don't let it stress you because like others stated, its their loss.
That being said, I generally don't bother giving advice to anyone who isn't seeking it.
If they aren't asking for it, usually they're not receptive in taking it. All your thoughts and helpful critiques are wasted on them because they will never follow through with it.
You'll be just wasting time on them, whereas you could be helping someone who has far more potential, a willingness to learn, and has shown that they can take critiques and implement them into their W.I.Ps .
TlDr; Don't waste your time trying to help everyone. Help only those who take critiques and follow through with them.
1.Positive thing
2.Negative thing
3.Positive thing
However, I wouldn't read too much into it either, you were only offering help. You notice really quickly if they'll get butthurt by how they tackle other peoples comments. I usually use that as a measuring stick if it's worth my time or not.
I love getting critiques, even if they absolutely destroy my work, because it means they cared enough about it to put in the effort to give that critique.
In that way replies like "that's awesome." isn't really that valuable :P
Also I think these kind of people are just immature. If a person gives me feedback, even if he or she somewhat lower on artistic level than me, even if it was not useful - I would thank the person, because I deeply thankful that they have taken their time to look at my art, think about it and write a feedback.
Lets just say the real world isn't like Polycount. People dont expect honesty, they're looking for praise 9/10 times.
However, because of the way that I am, I used to assume that most people were the same and often threw out unsolicited crit. To the people on the receiving end I probably came across like an arse. Nowadays I only do it when I see great work that I know the artist is skilled enough to push further, and if I know them a little.
I have seen this whole vibe that the Op describes from a few concept artists I followed on Facebook recently, via memes and such. The best course of action was unfollow....walk away. I know that the attitude of the artist shouldn't really affect your appreciation of their work, but if someone is an arse I cant be bothered to look at their work anymore.
It is perfectly fine to not agree wholeheartedly with every piece of criticism on an artpiece, but it is how you handle that which is telling of how secure you are in your work.
I dont care what level of seniority an artist has, if they take time out of their day to focus on your work you should have the common decency to at the very least take their words into consideration and not be a chump about it.
When I posted my portfolio here for the first time, I was expecting to scrap all my art pieces but I was surprised I only had to remove or 2 or 3 things and some art I was told specifically to keep (which made me happy).
Criticism builds confidence to say. It means you're not perfect, which is the only way to get close to perfection.
Seriously, I wouldnt sweat it at all. It really is their loss, and not yours.
If it was a top name not that i am defending them but maybe their day wasn't a good one and you caught them in a bad mood.
Otherwise no matter the level i'd always pick something and who cares if they get butt-hurt maybe inside of themselves they are really saying your right and kicking themselves in their own butt for not seeing it first cause they want to be Mr.perfect.
When you come across those people i just think to myself yea your good but guess what there is someone better somewhere, enjoy you little world.
(Is that dick-ish idk but guess what it's true, lol - knock'em off their pedestals, sry let me put you back on your pony.)
But i guess if you fear the burning bridges scenario i guess not drawing attention to yourself unless asked would be your best bet also, double check them and say you sure you want me to critique you because I've met some people that didn't like what i said so if you can't handle my heat...
Let me add then again, you have people criticizing your work in the hopes to sabotage so yea, you got to deal with that and perhaps he/she thought that about your comments?
Maybe you should share your pm / message?
These days i only give feedback to people asking for it (if i`m not too busy and feel knowledgeable on the subject that is)
I`ve had a guy i knew in college get really angry once when i pointed out some flaws in his work in a fairly kind way and i really didn`t see where such a strong reaction was coming from.
critique even bad one can be filtered to maybe something useable (unless its a cheap accusation of your work having a political agenda thats not there)
But personally, for now anyway, I want all critics I can get. The harder feedback, usually the better one it is.
I try not to critique things that 100 other people will.
That being said, I hate it when people post something under the guise of getting better but then get super butt-hurt when you point out flaws that could be improved. I have a friend that showed me some art asking what I thought and I pointed out what was flawed. He ignores my advice completely and posts it to Reddit. 30 comments later of people mirroring exactly what I said and he has ignored them completely and only responds to positive comments. Drives me nuts. Why bother asking?
I learnt very early on that if I wanted to post work here, not to be butt hurt when people give me feedback (don't bother looking, it was an old account to hide the traces of my butt hurtfulness)
But if you grew up getting feedback of your Mum whilst a basement stroking your neckbeard, your going to be used to people not having anything positive or negative (positively negative) to say, other than "that's nice dear" and you are probably going to get hemroids of rage when people give you feedback.
It could be that there are just so many more people posting now, so there is n't time to mention everyone's work.
I see page after page of awesome stuff on Polycount and just go hmm that's nice, then move on.
I think if you are on the receiving end of some hurtful criticism, don't react immediately, think about it for a while before replying.
most people have your best interests at heart, occasionally they are just being assholes, but either way just take it on the chin and try and analyze the criticism.
Since I've already spoken w him about it, he won't mind me using his name. Noah Bradley is a very very good professional illustrator, and preaches against this same idea of "unsolicited" critiques. He argues that he has friends he will ask if he needs critiques, otherwise, he posts his work for exposure only. He claims that most of the time, it's ametures giving crits to pros so they feel pro.
I disagree w him, but understand I am no where near his ability level. If I were, I do not know how I'd feel. I do know that if I wasn't interested in unsolicited critiques, I'd only show my art to family and friends...
What I do know is that I believe in the constructive critique. I once gave Scott Homer crits on a prop, who is waayyyyy out of my league, but he was gracious about it. He knows I'm not nearly as good as him, but he didn't feel my opinion was invalid because of it. That's the difference, I think.
This is unfortunate
Like for me I once just showed off some sketches I was proud of. I knew I was going to get feedback and I did and I humbly accepted it because I need to improve and how could the viewer be wrong about what they see?
But I was still miffed for some reason and when I thought about it, it was because I definitely was looking for an ego boost after all. I just wanted to be congratulated on a good job. I'm not secure about my art at all, and maybe this guy wasn't either. It was especially frustrating to get criticism about things I thought I'd addressed eg: "Dude you could make X look a bit more Y." *Man I already worked for hours to get X to look like Y!*
Not that I'm excusing this behaviour or anything. You can't please everyone and you gotta learn to take critiques nicely.
I see nothing wrong with his stance. nor with yours :icon60:
Everyone has different reasons for showcasing work.
If I'm going to critique someone elses work, it's up to me to determine what the artists' intentions are for showing it.
I won't burn anyone for seeking praise, critiques or exposure. Playing devils advocate, sometimes it's nice to get one day away from the constant criticism of others. Like a sunny day after months of rain. (Vancity/Seattle you know what i'm on about)
If it's a w.i.p, by all means ...prepare to be chewed out.
But for a finished piece, I see it as a judgement call... in my mind anyways.
Sometimes we create art, not to become better.. but to better someone elses day
say an artist posts a picture on facebook. I would never critique it unless he asks for it. I expect the same respect from everyone else, it is very simple really. when you post places like that you do it to show your art or promote yourself, so you would expect that the artist who did the work had asked some trusted peers for critique.
this is obviously the opposite as posting on an art forum asking for a review of the work where critique should be more than welcome from both sides.
The way I see it in most cases you cant do this sort of thing without people around you to critique your work. Relying on friends is not always a good thing as they may not be completely honest.
For one I once posted work on twitter saying I got a compliment off my mother and I must be on to a good thing. An artist replied and said never trust what your family says, they maybe just being nice.
This is why I think getting feedback from strangers is good, as long as the crit is constructive. Obviously get annoyed if the response is "thats shit, give up" but otherwise they should just buck up.
One of the things that annoyed me more than anything when studying 3d art in a fine art course was that everything that anyone made was considered art and therefore beyond critique. The upshot was that I wound up getting straight As for some of the most hilariously terrible 3d art that you'll see anywhere. I can see though, if you didn't eventually reject it and get some proper lessons as I did, that you'd probably wind up with an aversion to the sort of critique that is usually handed out here.
Haha, I remember something a professional photographer once said, that if you attract the haters then you're doing something right, since nobody would really be bothered to waste their own energy telling you how shit you are if your artwork didn't make an impact.
I'm seeing some negativity and misplaced blame in this thread. I'll try to put a more productive spin to it.
Giving feedback when it isn't asked for is a complex topic. Let's analyze it deeper:
1. Effective constructive criticism is a dialogue, not a monologue.
One person (Giver) dedicates his time and effort to give the feedback.
Another person (Receiver) then has to implement the feedback or at least reply to it (because if he ignores the feedback or reacts in a bad way, he risks looking like an ass; It's a socially awkward situation with possible long-term consequences).
To rephrase: by giving crits when not asked to, the Giver creates a mutually binding social interaction without asking for consent of Receiver. This alone can make it suck hard if the Receiver is too busy for this interaction (or is an Introvert like me - social interactions drain us, especially forced ones).
Givers, please keep this in mind before laying all blame on person receiving the feedback!
2. There are many nuances that Giver might not know beforehand.
There can be many nuances and it is silly to assume you know them all in a given situation (unless it's your good friend, maybe).
All arguments until this point serve one purpose - to show that giving feedback when not asked for it might not be a very good idea.
3. What would I recommend:
- Do not give feedback when not asked to. You save time/energy for yourself and the artist. You also show respect toward the artist as a human being.
- If you feel that something really needs feedback, try asking first - "Hey, would you like some feedback on that?" This simple one-liner question has saved me (and would-be givers/receivers) many hours of time, energy and good attitude.
- If you are actively looking for feedback (crits) when posting your WIPs etc, please state that. This is necessary for this mutually respectful model of social interaction to work.
These 3 simple suggestions are easy to follow and make life better for everyone involved. Win/win.Hope someone finds this useful in future
Being that it's the internet, I feel like most of it will come down to situational information.
What type of forum (professional, semi pro/mixedbag, amateur/imagehosting)
What type of artist was this human? (did any other work seem commercial/professional, was there any WIP posts?)
Also, what type of art was it, but that's been talked about.
I think if any of those were a yes/professional oriented it "should" be okay to give the crit, and most of us would had probably appreciated helpful feedback. Backlash never looks good in a public forum, and that might go a long way to describe what kind of artist they actually are.
One of the toughest lessons I had to learn when giving/receiving critique is to separate the work from the person who made it. Really essential with those tougher crits that you receive that bite deep. I guess they couldn't step back from the work and focus on the crit