Here's the thing. This game is not supposed to be a faithful representation of djing. This game is supposed to be an easier, 'pussified' if you will, version of beatmania.
And beatmania was awesome so quit complaining.
I'm assuming you haven't played it.
It's not supposed to be a version of beatmania. Sure, it's similar since GH basically ripped bemani's games to begin with (but did them right for a western audience).
DJ Hero is about bringing the franchise to an entirely different demographic. The gameplay looks similar to GH at first glance but between the switcher and the scratching it plays quite, quite different. (though it's presented the same.. with the scrolling highway)
I'd absolutely love it, if they released a music game, where I can play along with my real guitar, with my friends on their plastic instruments / or electric drum kit.
As long as you're in tune, the guitars should be able to note detect the same way as singing.
isn't a good dj (rave, house party, or whatnot) someone who can play/mix records all night that are so similar as to create the illusion of one long song/theme?
a turntable operates with an on/off switch - all instruments have to be played through manipulation of the instrument via fingers and/or breath.
While some dj's do alot of work to alter sounds they do not create sounds.
Scratches & fx are an altering of existing sound; as to where plucking a note, pressing a key, sounding a note is creating a sound from nonexistence.
What never seems to be brought up in any dj argument I've ever heard, and indeed I didn't know till a dj friend of mine showed me, is just how much sonic control a good dj really has.
The turntables aren't JUST on and off, they are variable speed. Speed control = pitch control. In addition the mixer in the middle isn't just right source/left source and volumes, it can often include bandpass filters, phase shift, and other "effects".
IE you can effectively take two records, isolate the bass drum kick and other low frequencies from one, and the melody from the other, as well as alter the sound of either, to create a new composition on the fly. Indeed the two records don't even have to be at the same exact tempo as you can adjust via turntable speed. Too much of course turns bass into midtone, but there is variance there.
Add in a larger setup of either more turntables, or some digital production software to the setup and you can do quite a bit. I've heard of dj's who had a certain mood strike them during a set and compose a new piece to mix in their production software while playing their set.
As far as how sound production/creation goes: Playing a guitar or piano or horn, etc, all rely on a vibration from a string or reed (or your lips) to produce their end sound. A turntable uses a grooved piece of stiff vinyl to vibrate a small needle. The difference is in the complexity of the waveform of the vibrating medium. A normal instrument is fairly freeform in the note patterns it can make, while a turntable is fairly deterministic.
Musical genres played aren't always the same. Sometimes they aren't even related. Go listen to some tracks from DJ Shadow or Cut Chemist for a while to see what I mean. If you're specifically talking trance/house and their myriad related genres then yes the songs are similar. Go to Ozzfest. The songs are fairly similar. Its audience understanding and crowd management that can really make a great DJ. Reading what mood the crowd is in, what they want to be doing, how they are enjoying themselves and then finding a way to enhance that or play into it. Really, you go to a dance party to dance, so the music has to be accommodating, but also at the end of a long night its good to bring the tempo and energy down a bit too, to keep things enjoyable, but to match the mood of the people present. Its far more about creating a synergistic relationship between the people present and the music than it is about creating a single long theme.
There is an art and a craft to djing, and even more so into the production of the music involved. Just as with any art or craft there are good practitioners, and very poor ones. Being a good dj is as much being a record player, as being a good digital artist is pushing buttons in a computer program. Just because you didn't write the code to create the verts doesn't make you less of an artist.
I'd absolutely love it, if they released a music game, where I can play along with my real guitar, with my friends on their plastic instruments / or electric drum kit.
As long as you're in tune, the guitars should be able to note detect the same way as singing.
MUSIC GAMES ARE THE FUTURE
IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE, YOU MUST NOW OFFER YOUR SHRIVELED OLD-MANHOOD TO HARMONIX, ON A GOLDEN PLATTER, SO THAT THEY MAY GRANT YOU MERCY IN THE COMING REVOLUTION.
Hey! My first musical game was Beat Mania, thank you very much!
A Guitar is based on a series of notes that can be written down. In this, Guitar Hero DOES follow a Guitar. (Just no variation in speed or tempo for the individual).
A TurnTable has no set series of notes. It has a series of record bits and pieces. It is not formulated down to being repeatable or sheet music.
So yea. No. People who are relying on the idea that since guitar hero isn't playing a guitar, so stfu. Totally don't understand how DJ'ing is not playing a guitar nor normal instrument.
A guitar is not based on a series of notes, the song which has been created is based on a series of notes. Guitars are creative instruments and can lead to an infinite amount of new songs and melodys. Guitar hero does not even attempt to mimic this, you cannot use guitar hero as a form of creative expression, you can merely pretend to play the notes you are given, I wouldnt expect anything more from dj hero.
Yes a turntable has no set series of notes, but the song you choose to play on that turntable does and that song can be formulated down to being repeatable music which is what these Hero games rely upon and they are good at it because its fun.
I understand that DJing is not like playing a guitar or normal instrument, my housemate is a dj, there is a certian art in finding just the right 2 songs to blend together(something DJ hero doesnt offer) and using the controls youve got at hand to make that happen in the most pleasing way possible(something DJ hero tries to emulate weakly) but ultimately without the original songs being mixed and the crowd to dance or enjoy the music the DJs efforts would have no lasting creative value.
Valias: I once was a disc jockey, traded the decks for a guitar; my brother is still a disc jockey(quite good, too) - I understand all your points. They are valid.
the argument or point I was trying to prove is along the lines of what Ged has just stated. When you put a record on all you get is that song - regardless of the eq/fx work you do. When you plug-in a guitar there is more a feeling of anythings possible.
I'm still waiting for keyboard hero damnit. Or keytar hero!
Harmonix need to get off their lazy asses and rip offKeyboardMania already, right?
Now, I skimmed through this thread and I'm tired, I'm not entirely sure what it's about, but I wanna rant, so I will;
DJ Hero is a game. Moreso, it's a rhythm game. All rhythm games consist of three basic skills; Note reading, hand-eye coordination, and the ability to master the controller (agility/dexterity). A TRUE DJ game would probably have neither of those, and it'd have to use the most obscure scoring system ever, if there would be any scoring at all. Oh wait, no, you can't possibly grade creativity and soulfulness through some scoring algorithms.
So basically, you end up with a virtual DJ program. It's not a game anymore, it's music software.
Compare: Take Guitar Hero, remove the notecharts, remove all pre-made songs, add five strumbars and 20 buttons per bar along the neck. Remove the scoring, remove any signs of a game. What do you end up with? A poor quality guitar that you can only use if you combine it with the proper software. Exactly like how, if you want a TRUE DJing game that lets you do what DJs do, you end up with an actual turntable.
Bottom line: Go buy yourself a darn turntable/guitar already! I already have a guitar, a keyboard and I'm in the process of deciding on an ocarina to buy. AND I play Guitar Hero and Beatmania IIDX on top of that. Let games be games. Let them have strict rules, scoring algorithms, leaderboards and heavily abstracted/symbolic use of oversized controllers. If Rainbow Six can still make me feel like a master tactician and marksman, I'll gladly let Beatmania try to convince me that I'm DJing while I'm mashing away at black and white buttons for no apparent reason to a pre-made song. I don't care that I'm not even doing anything close to actual DJing. I have a turntable, the music's loud and I feel awesome. That's what games do.
Valias: I once was a disc jockey, traded the decks for a guitar; my brother is still a disc jockey(quite good, too) - I understand all your points. They are valid.
the argument or point I was trying to prove is along the lines of what Ged has just stated. When you put a record on all you get is that song - regardless of the eq/fx work you do. When you plug-in a guitar there is more a feeling of anythings possible.
That is very true. A guitar is a freeform instrument. I suppose its why I'm more attracted to the production aspect than the mixing aspect, but I think it would be cool to create my own tracks to spin live in a way that I couldn't play them live in any other fashion.. other than perhaps the NIN route of getting a whole band together for all the parts etc
I'm still waiting for keyboard hero damnit. Or keytar hero!
That reminds me.. I totally dreamed that game the other night. The controller took a bit of getting used to, as it was practically a real keytar.
and at this point I've kinda lost track of what the original argument was. I do know that for the money, I'd just buy the thing I listed earlier (X-Session Pro) rather than the game. I'm betting they;ll be about the same cost, but with the one I can mix my own track selections.
Replies
I'm assuming you haven't played it.
It's not supposed to be a version of beatmania. Sure, it's similar since GH basically ripped bemani's games to begin with (but did them right for a western audience).
DJ Hero is about bringing the franchise to an entirely different demographic. The gameplay looks similar to GH at first glance but between the switcher and the scratching it plays quite, quite different. (though it's presented the same.. with the scrolling highway)
but it is quite fun imo.
As long as you're in tune, the guitars should be able to note detect the same way as singing.
What never seems to be brought up in any dj argument I've ever heard, and indeed I didn't know till a dj friend of mine showed me, is just how much sonic control a good dj really has.
The turntables aren't JUST on and off, they are variable speed. Speed control = pitch control. In addition the mixer in the middle isn't just right source/left source and volumes, it can often include bandpass filters, phase shift, and other "effects".
IE you can effectively take two records, isolate the bass drum kick and other low frequencies from one, and the melody from the other, as well as alter the sound of either, to create a new composition on the fly. Indeed the two records don't even have to be at the same exact tempo as you can adjust via turntable speed. Too much of course turns bass into midtone, but there is variance there.
Add in a larger setup of either more turntables, or some digital production software to the setup and you can do quite a bit. I've heard of dj's who had a certain mood strike them during a set and compose a new piece to mix in their production software while playing their set.
As far as how sound production/creation goes: Playing a guitar or piano or horn, etc, all rely on a vibration from a string or reed (or your lips) to produce their end sound. A turntable uses a grooved piece of stiff vinyl to vibrate a small needle. The difference is in the complexity of the waveform of the vibrating medium. A normal instrument is fairly freeform in the note patterns it can make, while a turntable is fairly deterministic.
Musical genres played aren't always the same. Sometimes they aren't even related. Go listen to some tracks from DJ Shadow or Cut Chemist for a while to see what I mean. If you're specifically talking trance/house and their myriad related genres then yes the songs are similar. Go to Ozzfest. The songs are fairly similar. Its audience understanding and crowd management that can really make a great DJ. Reading what mood the crowd is in, what they want to be doing, how they are enjoying themselves and then finding a way to enhance that or play into it. Really, you go to a dance party to dance, so the music has to be accommodating, but also at the end of a long night its good to bring the tempo and energy down a bit too, to keep things enjoyable, but to match the mood of the people present. Its far more about creating a synergistic relationship between the people present and the music than it is about creating a single long theme.
There is an art and a craft to djing, and even more so into the production of the music involved. Just as with any art or craft there are good practitioners, and very poor ones. Being a good dj is as much being a record player, as being a good digital artist is pushing buttons in a computer program. Just because you didn't write the code to create the verts doesn't make you less of an artist.
That's actually a really cool idea. :thumbup:
Makes me think of this guy.
Hey! My first musical game was Beat Mania, thank you very much!
:E ftw
A guitar is not based on a series of notes, the song which has been created is based on a series of notes. Guitars are creative instruments and can lead to an infinite amount of new songs and melodys. Guitar hero does not even attempt to mimic this, you cannot use guitar hero as a form of creative expression, you can merely pretend to play the notes you are given, I wouldnt expect anything more from dj hero.
Yes a turntable has no set series of notes, but the song you choose to play on that turntable does and that song can be formulated down to being repeatable music which is what these Hero games rely upon and they are good at it because its fun.
I understand that DJing is not like playing a guitar or normal instrument, my housemate is a dj, there is a certian art in finding just the right 2 songs to blend together(something DJ hero doesnt offer) and using the controls youve got at hand to make that happen in the most pleasing way possible(something DJ hero tries to emulate weakly) but ultimately without the original songs being mixed and the crowd to dance or enjoy the music the DJs efforts would have no lasting creative value.
hahaha Id be that guy..
the argument or point I was trying to prove is along the lines of what Ged has just stated. When you put a record on all you get is that song - regardless of the eq/fx work you do. When you plug-in a guitar there is more a feeling of anythings possible.
Harmonix need to get off their lazy asses and rip offKeyboardMania already, right?
Now, I skimmed through this thread and I'm tired, I'm not entirely sure what it's about, but I wanna rant, so I will;
DJ Hero is a game. Moreso, it's a rhythm game. All rhythm games consist of three basic skills; Note reading, hand-eye coordination, and the ability to master the controller (agility/dexterity). A TRUE DJ game would probably have neither of those, and it'd have to use the most obscure scoring system ever, if there would be any scoring at all. Oh wait, no, you can't possibly grade creativity and soulfulness through some scoring algorithms.
So basically, you end up with a virtual DJ program. It's not a game anymore, it's music software.
Compare: Take Guitar Hero, remove the notecharts, remove all pre-made songs, add five strumbars and 20 buttons per bar along the neck. Remove the scoring, remove any signs of a game. What do you end up with? A poor quality guitar that you can only use if you combine it with the proper software. Exactly like how, if you want a TRUE DJing game that lets you do what DJs do, you end up with an actual turntable.
Bottom line: Go buy yourself a darn turntable/guitar already! I already have a guitar, a keyboard and I'm in the process of deciding on an ocarina to buy. AND I play Guitar Hero and Beatmania IIDX on top of that. Let games be games. Let them have strict rules, scoring algorithms, leaderboards and heavily abstracted/symbolic use of oversized controllers. If Rainbow Six can still make me feel like a master tactician and marksman, I'll gladly let Beatmania try to convince me that I'm DJing while I'm mashing away at black and white buttons for no apparent reason to a pre-made song. I don't care that I'm not even doing anything close to actual DJing. I have a turntable, the music's loud and I feel awesome. That's what games do.
That is very true. A guitar is a freeform instrument. I suppose its why I'm more attracted to the production aspect than the mixing aspect, but I think it would be cool to create my own tracks to spin live in a way that I couldn't play them live in any other fashion.. other than perhaps the NIN route of getting a whole band together for all the parts etc
That reminds me.. I totally dreamed that game the other night. The controller took a bit of getting used to, as it was practically a real keytar.
and at this point I've kinda lost track of what the original argument was. I do know that for the money, I'd just buy the thing I listed earlier (X-Session Pro) rather than the game. I'm betting they;ll be about the same cost, but with the one I can mix my own track selections.