Your helpful movie morality thread
polycounter lvl 18
There's something that's been bugging me lately about movies, and that is that the same themes seem to get repeated over and over... and in my opinion, these themes are quite stupid. When ever they come up, I cringe, and lately I'm starting to feel angry, because I'm wondering if I'm the only person in the theater who is cringing.
SO. I'd like to blow off some steam by offering a friendly public service! Lets look at this nonsense, hmm?
Also -- Do discuss any movie themes that you like or hate in this thread
1. If I kill the bad guy, I'm just as bad as he is, or I'm bound in some identity. "I knew it Doug.. you ARE a killer."
Okay, this is just plain fucking stupid. This was in
ALSO. We're all psychopaths. This story about having to transcend the dark side of yourself is absolute simplistic nonsense. You've got to integrate it. We've all got an aggressive, egocentric dick inside of us. it's useful, if you can organize it around a higher self.
2. The government/some manipulating body is in total control
We meant for you to feel that way. it was fake all along. We told that guy to kill your dad, so that he would go to the cops, and then your dad would yaddy yaddy yaddy blah blah blah
I dont know if it's because of the current political situations, with ecconomic hitmen and asshole presidents, or advertising, or what ever, but we, as a species, seem to be trying to digest this idea that there is some higher watchman who is manipulating us. This is a fear-based fantasy and I'm SICK of seeing it. not only is it just boring, and meaninglessly painful, but there's never a solution offered. nobody ever beats the system; the poor fellow just gets fucked.
Both of these themes have something in common-- they represent a writer who is struggling to deal with a pradox he can't reconcile... and is basically shitting on us.
Am I alone? I know this has been pissing off SOMEONE else out there.
SO. I'd like to blow off some steam by offering a friendly public service! Lets look at this nonsense, hmm?
Also -- Do discuss any movie themes that you like or hate in this thread
1. If I kill the bad guy, I'm just as bad as he is, or I'm bound in some identity. "I knew it Doug.. you ARE a killer."
Okay, this is just plain fucking stupid. This was in
The Dark Knight and Wolverine, as well as others
. For the love of god. We create these hero characters, and we square them off against stone cold psychopaths, and expect them not to kill anyone. Folks: Morality does not come from a set of rules. It's not black and white. There's nothing inherently wrong with killing someone. If you're saving 300 saints by killing one hitler, you fucking kill him. That's not morally wrong.ALSO. We're all psychopaths. This story about having to transcend the dark side of yourself is absolute simplistic nonsense. You've got to integrate it. We've all got an aggressive, egocentric dick inside of us. it's useful, if you can organize it around a higher self.
2. The government/some manipulating body is in total control
We meant for you to feel that way. it was fake all along. We told that guy to kill your dad, so that he would go to the cops, and then your dad would yaddy yaddy yaddy blah blah blah
I dont know if it's because of the current political situations, with ecconomic hitmen and asshole presidents, or advertising, or what ever, but we, as a species, seem to be trying to digest this idea that there is some higher watchman who is manipulating us. This is a fear-based fantasy and I'm SICK of seeing it. not only is it just boring, and meaninglessly painful, but there's never a solution offered. nobody ever beats the system; the poor fellow just gets fucked.
Both of these themes have something in common-- they represent a writer who is struggling to deal with a pradox he can't reconcile... and is basically shitting on us.
Am I alone? I know this has been pissing off SOMEONE else out there.
Replies
I'm pretty sure I just covered what my ethical standards are... although I might have missed something.
To conclude, yes, batman killing the joker after the joker lost and had given up would have been immoral. Wolverine is somewhat more ambiguous as stryker was currently attempting to kill her, however she had the option to use non-lethal means and did, and was thereby correct.
for #2. It's a popular plot device. Doesnt bother me.
3. The underdog is always right.
This annoys me to no end. A lot of movies portray the underdog as lovable and ultimately victorious. They convince the audience to root for them, no matter what their flaws. And the "other" side is always portrayed as malicious, spiteful, and strict.
But how often does this happen in real life? Normally the kind of people who constantly resist authority don't turn out well. And they usually aren't charismatic or lovable. You show us a rich team vs. a poor team, and the rich team is automatically the villains.
There are so many other movies to watch and so many stories to read you can have any flavor of candy you want but why get pissed because you keep going back for sour lemons?
If your taste has changed don't eat the same crap...
Since you like to torture yourself, its really going to depress you that there are only 7 stories and they just get retold over and over.[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Seven-Basic-Plots-Tell-Stories/dp/0826452094"] http://www.amazon.com/Seven-Basic-Plots-Tell-Stories/dp/0826452094[/ame]
If you change them up enough they never really get old or cliche.
Are you the guy that goes to a magic show figures out the trick stands up and storms out, or sits there and continues to be entertained?
Applying high standards to Wolverine? really? hahah thats why you rock.
Kub -- cooommmoonn you know as well as I do that you can't always second guess a movie's themes before you see it... although I also try not to watch trailers, as they ruin the film. Even so, It upsets me that we're still dealing with these morals as a culture. weather i go see these movies or not, I'm still concerned by our culture's moral center. Doesn't rampant materialism and racism bother you? that's is just a deeper extent of moral simplicity.
Aesir -- I think you and I are in agreement here. the point is, there's a grey area where killing is okay, if you're personally harmed. it's worth pointing out that defending a loved one is probably seen as okay, and your sense of love can expand to humanity as a whole... but lets not get into that. Point being, a character like the joker is unrealistically (rediculously) able to set things up to kill important people, and has no desire to stop. Batman not killing the joker makes batman a sociopath in this case, I'd argue. In wolverene's case, it just makes him stupid.
Ricahrd -- DUDE. tell me about it. That one drives me crazy too. there's a lot of those 'magical' themes out there... where some character type is just rewarded somehow for being that character type.. like the girl eventually sees that he's great and falls in love with him, or what ever else. Total fantasy, with no basis in reality what so ever.
Kaskad -- While TDK gets at the idea of needing a badish guy, batman doesn't actually legitimately become that character. there is no real personal change, it's just a superficial concept. he doesn't actually DO anything "bad" in this case. he just gets shit pinned on him. This is a joke of a solution to this moral conundrum -- and it doesn't actually deal with the concept that's causing the conundrum in the first place -- the idea of "bad" is arbitrary and based on someone's worldview. Batman fails to transcend that b.s of "badness" in a conformist sense.
I had a big rant here agreeing with you that morality is realitive and adding that there IS a higher inherent moral truth (that includes relitivity) but I wont get into it. Lets just say -- Yes, there is a higher moral truth, and if someone wants to argue it with me, i'll get into it with them. this post was too bloody long
The thing is, I care about our culture. These are the mainstream films, because this is where most people are. I'm worried about that fact.
how exactly are we supposed to deal, as a culture, with complex international issues, when we can't make simple moral distinctions?? i know there are better movies out there, but most people watch batman! and these people vote!
they vote! for christ's sake! they vote!
Oh please, that's ridiculous. If you want to truly be pedantic beyond all logical means of discussion, there is only ONE story ([he] lives, [he] dies, the end); if you aren't a douchebag, it's pretty easy to see that there are a million ways to tell unique angles and elements of that story. And is a story even the same story anymore if you change the major characters? It's defeatism at its silliest to say there are only a handful of writable stories.
And that book you linked is a shameless regurgitation of Joseph Campbell's THe Hero With a Thousand Faces by the looks of it.
Give people a little more credit maybe... When does watching an action film translate to government policy creation? People can watch the film and then decide to vote against a politician who has the same moral code as batman, dont you think?
thinking that people go to the movies then head off straight to the voting booth without any more thought is you literally believing the "government out to get us" plot line you hate so much, isnt it? That fear is straight out of 1984!
haha, i think people have more brains they you give them credit for. People are so busy making super hard decisions everyday about their lives, especially now, that a simple predictable plot appeals to the masses even more.
IMO one shouldnt carry the weight of an entire culture's moral beliefs, instead try to establish and solidify your own morals, and staying true to those, its work enough?
I have a 13 year old niece, and we watch movie's and tv together a lot. Typically disney stuff, but sometimes other types of movies, horror, action whatever. But it's the disney shit that bugs me to no end. This whole deal they have about cramming the idea that a girl needs a boyfriend to matter at all right down the throats of young girls is complete bullshit. It's not like that for the guys as much, but the girls HAVE TO have a boyfriend. It's written in fuckin stone. Same with the "If there's a boy and a girl in a kids movie, they HAVE TO hook up". That kind of disney morality pisses me off like no other.
Normally I have no problem turning my brain off for certain movies. I'm fine with doing that, and just going along for the ride, and I'm definitely not one of those people who feels the need to sit in judgement of EVERY frame of a film. I can enjoy stupid flicks for being stupid. But those are a couple of things that drive me shit slinging mad in films.
The main point I was making was, whats the point of sticking to one vein of stories that are nearly identical to one another when there is so much more variety to choose from?
I love old B/W sci-fi movies but gorging myself on that one thing for long periods is only going to end in them collecting dust for a really long time.
Variety and balance.
The Hero With a Thousand Faces, covers Monomyth. He talks more about common path that heros take, not really categorizing the stories themselves. "hero leaves, gains something, fights something, goes home". Monomyth pretty much fits inside of any of the 7 stories but doesn't define them. The hero might pass through the same stages but that doesn't mean it has to be tragic every time.
'OH NO, I CAN SEE THE VAGUE OUTLINE OF 30M PEOPLE!! BIG BROTHER MAAAAAAAN.'
And then that bullshit about not letting the public know what Harvey Dent became because 'they would lose hope'. What BS. I mean who the hell takes the wrap for 5 murders. They just realised they were 5 minutes from the end of the movie but hadn't made him into a pariah for the inevitable sequel. Batman Begins was great; Dark Knight left A LOT to be desired. Also Nolan should have created a different ending, especially seeing as Ledger died. The resulting dialogue wasn't that good, a few funny lines.
Sorry, I have a chip on my shoulder with that movie. I was really let down by it. Hopefully Nolan redeems himself with the final one (no Johny Depp Riddler please!!)
Heroes kill at a whim...
No hope...
What a sad world...
it is fucking ON buddy.
yes, it's true... to a certain extent. I'm not talking about flat out brain washing here though... Like, I dont think someone is going to watch a movie and then reference batman when they go to vote.. although I suppose even that is possible quite frankly.
what bugs me is that nobody else seems pissed off about this, so I expect that nobody else really GETS it.. and that scares me. I start to think -- if people aren't rejecting this like the bile that it is, it must be because most folks just.. don't think about things like this. they don't really comment on it, because.. "meh. never thought about it i guess. morality? i dunno. I'm a good person. I dont think it's right to kill people. I'm not really interested in philosophy.. yeah, wolverne.. if he killed that guy he'd be an animal himself.. cuz that's what animals do. he doesn't want to be an animal. cool."
Maybe it's personal. when I watch a movie, I am really watching for themes. perhaps other people are just lookin for face punching.
which..
sucks. and quite frankly it's no excuse. If you're going to make a face punching movie with no theme, FINE... I dont mind that.. but if you're putting a theme in there, please don't let it be stupid.
I will fight you with something you must totally despise... cliche!
"Ignorance is bliss"
just because they dont "get" it (if your suspicions are correct) doesnt make the world worse off. And so, it shouldnt scare you or effect you negatively. Even the most ignorant and lowly of people want the same things in life as everyone else, no matter what themes are in their movies. we all know the the common pillars that lead to a structured happiness, I think.
For further arguments sake I'd wager that you are worse off than these other "duped" humans. This is because you dwell on how cultural morale is possibly being shifted negatively, something you alone could most likely have no impact on. Also cultural moral is something that can easily have NO impact on your personal happiness. But you sit and brood, conjuring distrust in your fellow man because they are being fed "garbage" and dont know it... all while trying to help them with a skull full of worries. While other people, pick up this movie, watch some punchy punchy, then forget it and continue with their morals already instilled (if over the age of 25) most likely passed to them by parents, and family.
hahahaha - ranting is fun! im not sure i made sense, but i know you are wrong in some way! haha
I'm up for watching and listening to other views and experiences, I think it is those things that make for a fair and balanced society. I think every option should be put in front of everyone and they should have enough unbiased info to make the proper choices on their own. I think our time and resources should be spent educating people to make the right choices instead of making the world a safe place for idiots to go about their blissful little lives totally unaware to the dangers all around them.
I think its the difference between having underage drinking problems because society as a whole has tried to suppress it, and living in a society where everyone is open about alcohol and its not nearly as cool to go out and get plastered 6 ways till Sunday.
Are people educated through the media they take in? Sure but not everything needs to be used as a tool to hammer morality home. Some entertainment... is just for entertainment.
What would Batman do?
Eh, it could happen.
No, really, you have it backwards -- all seven of those stories fit INSIDE monomyth. It's seven parts, seven stories that fit together to form the monomyth. Worth reading instead of just reading about.
The point i was making is that you can boil every single story possible down into ONE story, so saying 7 is arbitrary. And the process of boiling takes away everything that makes the story the story, so there's not really any logical reason as a critic to get into it to begin with.
Regarding the fear/watched over thing : one of the first art and morale discussion I had when I arrived in the US (basically, should anyone/anything enforce regulations as to whether an art piece is offensive or not) somehow ended by my friend saying "oh but, if it's offensive, the government wouldn't allow it somehow". So yeah I think you are right on that point, there is something like that in the air here, a feeling that someone might decide for you in the end. I'm like you, I don't like that feeling at all, or rather, knowing that folks around me feel that way.
Also I think it depends what area you live in. In suburbs I feel like you are very likely to mainly have mainstream/blockbuster movies (let's drive to the movies!), as opposed to active cities where I think you can find some more indie offerings. But yeah I think there is a cultural problem here.
Also to bring it back on the original topic - can you name a few movies you thoroughly enjoyed recently ? I find that in many cases, amimation feature films have a much nicer story quality, because they are less likely to be plagued by the Hollywood checklist structure. Even indie documentaries can be a pleasant surprise (Ever watched King of Kong? Fantastic stuff. That kind of movies makes a more permanent mark on me than any IronMan for instance).
Also if you turn to foreign films you might find great things too. I would recommend C.R.A.Z.Y. , an extremely funny, moving and well put together movie from Quebec. Also check out Cashback, a UK short turned into a feature film. That's 2 of the most enjoyable films I have seen in the past 2 years. Along with Pans Labyrinth and The Fall, but you might know these two anyways. I recommend the other ones also because they don't rely on visual fantasy to still be fantastic stories.
Also about Batman and Wolverine : come on they are not exactly subtle movie material anyways haha. I personally can't stand famous superhero movies anymore. I guess I should check out DarkKnight for the Joker's portrayal, but besides that I feel like I wont enjoy it for anything else than the cool HD. Also guys, no need to over-analyze superhero movies huh. No matter how you turn it, it's always gonna be hollywood stuff, and you all know what that means.
Good luck on your search! Just don't follow the crowd when someone tells you "aaaaaw come on, it's gonna be fun, check your brain at the door!" to convince you to see a movie. If it smells like garbage, it might very well be garbage!
The way I heard about the monomyth and the 7 stories was more to be used as a rough template guide when getting started not really as a critiquing tool. Isn't a critics job to comment on the specifics? Seems kind of pointless to compare it distant cousins when there are brothers and sisters in the same room. Using it critique something would be like using the forms of a foundation to critique the hand carved banister that will be installed a year later.
Maybe boiling down is a bad term to use. Its not really stripping the story of its components but just putting it in a box with the others of the same type, inside that box is another box and so on, until you have each movie standing on its own.
I don't understand why movie buffs get tossed in a twitter when they proclaim something to be original and someone points out it isn't. It's still enjoyable and it doesn't need to be treated like its tainted and ruined.
if someone had layed down in front of nazi tanks, the nazis would have ran them the fuck over. ethnocentrism simply does not identify with people outside of it's group. Gandhi and mother Teressa's focus on cultivating the loving side of one's self is fantastic, but it's also just one side, and we've moved beyond that as a species. The difficulty comes when the Gandhi self fails; You're in Rwanda, there's a massacre going on, there's no reporters sharing your story with the "civilized" world and nobody local gives a shit about you. you just try and be loving there and see what happens.
Vig -- wellllllll I disagree. but okay: lets not repress any point of view. in fact, lets not make any value judgements at all.
lets take a story about a guy who's really really angry at his work. he works all day and needs to find an outlet. he meets a shy little girl and marries her. He beats the shit out of her every night, and that vents his anger. he lives happily ever after. Great story!
Or the men in India who kidnap young girls and circumsize them in the night so that they don't cheat on their husbands. Hey, that's just one reality, right? just cultural diversity. It should all be expressed!
or maybe, this "let everyone express what they want" is just another value judgment that you're making. the truth of the matter is, people ALWAYS make distinctions about what is right and what is wrong. moral relativism is just another value judgment.. one that values equality as the "one true law" -- you're really doing the same thing I am.
thus, i have no problem having a discussion where I make value judgments. Yes, i think these themes are stupid. I'm not going to stop you from watching them. I'm not going to try and lock you up in Auschwitz.... but god dammit, I'm not going to pretend anymore that i should just accept everything equally because that's bullshit. These themes are stupid and (single tear in my eye) thanks to rationality, we can actually evaluate them logically.
Edit:
OOO. OO. Okay I see a problem here. I need to say something:
I am in no way supportive of censoring anyone. I am a big supporter of free speach. HOWEVER. I also believe in higher, more complete truth, and I think it's important to be vocal about what's stupid and what isn't. Take Richard Dawkins for example. he's made a decision about what he believes and he's expressing it. people can make up their own minds, but there's got to be room for someone to call out shit when they see it... because if we never make any value judgements, we'll never evolve as a species.
Well I dont know what kind of bullshit(probably
Wait you guys are talking about something else, i can see John Warner last words... (in his post)
wait lol ''if someone had layed down in front of nazi tanks, the nazis would have ran them the fuck over.'' Haha do you really believe that? Where are you from john?
(Because I watch movies where people get killed, doesnt mean i go killing or getting myself killed) Ask yourself: do you? perhaps this is not what you are talking about either, il come back and read the thread later...
I think instead of railing against movies you hate or find morally reprehensible, you should find ways to watch, promote, maybe even make movies you do agree with. I think you should talk out against movies you don't like but I'm not sure that will always give you the results you're looking for.
Talk up the things you like, don't spend too much energy on the things you don't. Not out of some "hey man we're all ok here ya know" philosophy but because its often way more productive.
The value judgment equal relativism in your post is vaguely reminiscent and hints at a derailing in progress.
Yeah, definitely, i think we agree 100% here. My point was that there's not really any sense in stripping down a story like this when it comes to critiquing -- that'd be like pointing out a painting is just a bunch of marks on a canvas. It's useful as a guide to break down and study it, sure, but it doesn't really have anything to do with how good or bad it is.
Anyway, John Warner, i'm not really sure i understand whatsoever what you EXPECT out of movies. For them to to tell exactly the story *you* would write? For their stories to parallel your worldviews? Sure, plenty of cliche, campy things happen in movies, but that doesn't seem like what this thread is about. Do you read books? Most classic literature has the same problems you're outlining here.
that would be my second example:
Luke Skywalker has Darth Vader at his mercy at the end of Return of the Jedi and spares him.
vs
Anakin Skywalker has Count Dooku at his mercy at the beginning of Revenge of the Sith and decapitates him.
LOL. Mother Theresa wasn't so great either.
Vig -- if i may, sir. IF I MAY. you're making large assumptions about what my intent is. I never told you to not see the movies. I agree completely with your first statement, that's what i'm doing here. you hit it right on the head -- your first statement is the intent of this thread. exactly.
The reason that this thread is called "helpful" is because I see quite clearly that people in general are still dealing with these themes on a serious level and I wanted to deconstruct them in a sort of tounge-in-cheek way. I'm more interested in knowing that other people understand these themes then people somehow-stop-making-these-movies. let me make something clear:
expressing these types of ideas is important because people are where they are, and we need to deal with those ideas somehow before we can move beyond them. I just get goddamn frustrated that some people somewhere apparently seem hung up on these ideas. I guess I'm being a curmudgeon in that sense... it's just frustrating okay? god dammit. the thing that's difficult about it is that the people who make the films don't seem to really reconcile these issues in a healthy way before they actually make the story, and I wish they would, but yes, at the very least, they're providing me with the ability to call their work out as being stupid.
*edit*
As an aside, my main complaint with Batman Begins is that Batman chooses to let Ra's al Ghul die in the train car ("I'm not going to kill you, but I don't have to save you.") Whether or not that's the way other people would handle the situation, it's clearly out of character with how Batman's been written for decades. Even Frank Miller didn't turn him into a killer in TDKR, but the movie version seemed to have no qualms with letting an enemy die.
return of the jedi, sail barge : luke is on the rope about to swing away from an empty deck, and clear decides to murder absolutely everyone apart from his mates, most of who were just there for the party. Or working. You think R2 was the only one serving drinks?
Most mainstream movies are designed to appeal to a very wide audience and such lack any true psychological or emotional depth. The mental engagement with the viewer is adolescent at best. Meaning shallow.
If you want something more sophisticated, you'll have to open your mind to indie or foreign films. I live in DC and we had a foreign film festival here recently, and I managed to see a couple of titles. Really great enjoyable stuff. Not that foreign is better than American, just something that's outside the Hollywood money making machine.
In a barren desert with very little industry. That's quite possibly the only work they CAN do.
THis reminds me of:
Well...Dooku wasn't Anakins father was he.
go check out V for Vendetta one of my all time favorites !!!
*i have yet to read the alan moore comics*
Only in the end to find that despite your justified motivation YOU are the rebel/militant-extremist trying to overthrow an otherwise stable society.