The ergonomics thread

pior · Dec 2008

Hey all

I thought it would be nice to have a thread here where we could compile useful links related to ergonomics, workstation posture, and human interface devices.

Simply put : the anti-RSI thread!

New gadgets or ideas would still get their own threads (like the Arsh new setup post, or discussions about new mice and whatnot) but later on if the original posts bring up interesting points we could keep a link in here. I find myself searching for old related topics quite often and it's always a bit hard to remember all the names to search for ('Evoluent', 'SpaceNavigator' aso). And obviously straight links to manufacturers or Amazon sales would be at home here aswell.

Another reason would be to give quick reviews of such products. I find them often rated from a data entry/word processing point of view on mainstream review sites - and such things rarely apply to digital art (a vertical mouse might turn vertex editing into a nightmare because of the lack of precision). Hence we could share art-oriented experiences with such devices in this thread.

Also, we could discuss hacked DIY solutions here.

What do you think?
I think I mentionned that to Gauss in the past, and thought it's now a good time to start this up.
(AdamBee, feel free to format the text to make it sexier :P)

Some links :

HP touchscreen - could be nice as a secondary screen to explore references on with piclens, launch apps with a single finger press, select brushes in PS, launch macros ...
http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF06a/382087-382087-64283-3181050-3181048-3182543.html

Spacenavigator - interesting concept, very poor support (only had satisfactory results with 3DSMax so far)
[ame]http://www.amazon.com/3Dconnexion-SpaceNavigator-3D-Navigation-3DX-700029/dp/B000LB41BM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1230301885&sr=1-1[/ame]

HP tx2x - tablet PCs with touchscreen capability
http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/computer_can_series.do?storeName=computer_store&category=notebooks&a1=Category&v1=Mobility&series_name=tx2z_series
http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/computer_can_series.do?storeName=computer_store&category=notebooks&a1=Category&v1=Mobility&series_name=tx2500z_series

Evoluent vertical mouse - good concept, yet it lacks a good way to hold the body of the mouse firmly (buttons get clicked if held steadily, forcing the user to hold it awkwardly with the palm muscles...)
[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Evoluent-VM3R2-RSB-Vertical-Mouse-3/dp/B000O3OEGE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1230302263&sr=1-1[/ame]

Racing seat - could very well be used for a comfy workstation setup? See Jox's post below.
[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Playseats-Evolution-Gaming-Black-Silver/dp/B000K9Q5UK/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1230302460&sr=1-10[/ame]

Arsh's drafting table-mounted Cintiq
http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=58579

JacqueChoi · Dec 2008

Cool thread idea!

Something I really liked about Arsh's setup is that it removed a lot of the back-related ergonomic problems by just standing up (brilliant in it's simplicity).

But for a sit down solution, my friend made something similar to these that he RAVES about:
http://www.gizmag.com/go/4797/

http://thegizmospot.com/zero-gee-ergonomic-workstation/

Parnell · Dec 2008

I think this is a great idea Pior. I almost posted an entire tutorial of sorts on how I got over a really bad case of RSI. I literally thought I was going to have to end my short lived 3D career.
I went to a soft tissue expert that shredded the scar tissue in my arms with deep painful massages. After 10-12 sessions my arms felt worlds better. I sleep every night now with a wrist guard, and only use the tablet for anything longer than checking my email. I also use an Evoluent keyboard, I bought the mouse but my wife hated using it so I just opted to go back to the normal one.

When i get around to it I'll post some of the stretches my doctor told me to do to. They helped a ton!
B

Rwolf · Dec 2008

Thinking of this in Combination with the Cintiq. Since A full keyboard in front of Cintiq doesn't make sense.

http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/keyboards/keyboard/devices/5123&cl=us,en

pior · Jan 2009

More!

Just tried this table at an ergonomics store. It raises up and down with hydraulics - similiar to the discontinued Ikea table.

It would be impossible to punch a cintiq hole in it since there is a (nice) tilt system behind the board, but one could very well add another 'layer' of board/box on top, matching the depth of the tablet (kindof like the oldschool neon lightboxes mounted on drafting tables)

http://www.moll-system.com/moll/menu.do?mid=scienceFrames

Irreal · Jan 2009

Ok, as I imagine most of us sit down at our desks all day investing in a comfortable chair would seem like a no brainer. However, i've been sitting on this piece of office world crap for the best part of 4 years and i've had enough. The chair I had at work cost about £500 but was ace. It was fully adjustable according to your weight so it supported you in a kind of not leaning forwards but not leaning back too much kinda way. I miss that chair

Can't remember the make though.

So, all you sitters out there. Could you please recommend me a reasonably priced comfy sitting machine? Or a nice chair.

D4V1DC · Jan 2009

Got this Ergonomic chair for xmas for the home station.

It's the spine alignment/cobra if you want to look it up.

If you like being able to lean backwards like in a "grampa chair" this is the chair for you.
Not much else to add to the post but will look forward to more alternatives then the usual work station.

Microneezia · Jan 2009

Im pretty interested in this kind of articulated armrest. There was a picture of Jouste (in his sketchbook thread) I noticed that he was using an armrest that cupped his forearm. If he reads this could you list your chair model here?

The articulated armrest (70$) seems like a good investment as i find myself using whatever freaking chair i can find at my desk. I cant get expensive chair gear so ... hmm does anybody use these? Id like to hear a review...The good thing i noticed is that it moves UP and DOWN, as well as side to side, so if your chair height is not perfectly adjustable, like my wicker antique, then this helps close the height gap I guess. Also can be used with or without mousepad platform, so I imagine this might come in useful for pen users as well?

Articulated Armrest!

yhst-16016120845095_2031_3165935

It looks like these Ero-guys also have split keyboards for that Arsh drafting cintiq table as well..

Im into this too!

this site is good actually

EDIT: The kids ergo gear looks really great too actually! Go ergoguys go!

Mark Dygert · Jan 2009

Microneezia, that's pretty awesome, I'm thinking of ordering one, thanks for the link!

TheWinterLord · Jan 2009

That armrest does look cool but i think i prefer having the mouse pad (and mouse) further up the table so im resting my fore-arm on the table including the ebow. Same for the keyboard, this way i can have notes infront of me, and by having the mouse up closer by the screen i feel precision is easier (I play a lot of FPS where it counts the most) but the same goes for anything im doing on the computer.

This thread is great i really am planning on a long game-art career!

(note i sit pretty close to the table compared to most people i guess)

Microneezia · Jan 2009

TheWinterLord wrote: »

resting my fore-arm on the table including the ebow..... i sit pretty close to the table compared to most people i guess)

This would kill me. talk about hunch-back! :P I pretty much have to have my back straight. Are you hunched over the table? You bring up an interesting idea in my head though.

Has anyone seen a table with a U shape carved into it so that the table extends past the left and right side of the user? thats the only way i can imagine my arm up to my elbow resting on the table.

pior · Jan 2009

Hi Micro, yeah those exist. We have them at the office, they work quite well but they look dead ugly with their bright wood finish!
They are L desks, with the deep part of the corner on the user side carved in as an arc (not just a rounded corner. The arc is 'inside' the L)

It does help the elbow position, but I feel like the arc could be even deeper for more benefits.

I think the ideal IDEAL solution would a narrow U desk with the short side of the U just wide enough to fit in. Kindof like a control seat. It should be easy to put together with cheap Ikea table leftovers!
You could even go lighter, and build the equivalent of that armrest you linked to, for a fraction of the price. Basically 2 table extensiona that would clamp on the table wherever you want them to (even easier if you're allowed to drill your tabletop...)

Kovac · Jan 2009

I actually use this chair for the same reason as a U desk or that arm rest:
http://www.officedepot.com/a/products/277968/Realspace-PRO-Maverick-Multifunction-High-Back/

I used to get super sore sitting at work all day in other chairs but since I've gotten this thing 2 years ago I haven't had a back or wrist problem since. The adjustable arms go plenty high enough to be flesh with my desk/mouse so I couldn't imagine working long in a chair that isn't just like it.

Microneezia · Jan 2009

my interest in ergonomics comes in part from a severely tight living space, so being a Macguiver may be the best option actually. Perhaps I should take a look into japanese ergonomic retail.

leilei · Jan 2009

I like discipline by exercise.

Microneezia · Jan 2009

hahahaha, yeah, right, try and stop me.

pior · Jan 2009

Another one :
http://www.rsiguard.com/

Complete with embarrassing popup exercises videos!

hobodactyl · Jan 2009

Kovac: You made me notice my chair at work has those adjustable arm rests (mine is the same model but without the headrest), and it helps a ton

Thanks!

JacqueChoi · Jan 2009

This isn't quite ergonomic, but it seems somewhat health related:

http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,24906913-5017672,00.html

Fuse · Feb 2009

I've got one of the those Microsoft Ergo Keyboards and while they are great for typing they just take up way too much space... along with my tablet taking up realestatei dont find i access my hotkeys as fluidly ..

I am going to try one of those new apple keyboards ..
[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Apple-MB110LL-A-Keyboard-Kit/dp/B000V07N9U/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1235424222&sr=8-1[/ame]

I anticipate it being a lot more comfortable since it takes up minimal space and is designed for fast snappy strokes..

[MILES] · Feb 2009

Wesley didn't care for this setup much...but Prince Humperdinck swears by it.

achmedthesnake · Feb 2009

you killed my father.............

James Edwards · Feb 2009

Love the apple keyboards. Smaller foot print, and laptop height keys (my fave), not to mention the keys being a good size/spread and feel when typing. I got one with my mac when I bought it and liked the kb so much I got another for my pc.

[MILES] · Feb 2009

Gwot wrote: »

Love the apple keyboards. Smaller foot print, and laptop height keys (my fave), not to mention the keys being a good size/spread and feel when typing. I got one with my mac when I bought it and liked the kb so much I got another for my pc.

I'll second Gwot's mention of the apple keyboards. Only drawback is if you have a fatty jump drive. The keyboard is so low to the desk that you'll want a slim drive if you want to use it with integrated USB ports. Aside from that....(and that's stupid picky)....the keyboards are fantastic.

Rens · Feb 2009

Shiiiit, ive been figuring out how to deal with RSI for more then two years now. I think i finaly know what lifestyle is best to keep myself out of problems.

For me its realy a combination of alot of factors.
Biggest problem for me is my bloodflow. Making sure this stays optimal is key.

Im wearing thermo gloves right now, they are very thin, and i cut off the fingertops, so you dont actualy notice them, but they realy keep my hands warm, wich helps alot!

Im also wearing a wristguard, its a thick elasticbandage type, where you put your thumb trough it and wrap it around the wrist the way you want it. This keeps my wrist from bending too much and slowing down the bloodflow, but also from cramping up from weird poses.

Im wearing a hoody to keep my neck warm

I never work in a tshirt anymore, this cools down my arms like frosty the snowman.

When sleeping i try to keep a good pose. If my neck is bend too much, i can really feel it in the morning. When i wake up, i feel like an old granny, but when i get going for 20 min, it all goes away.

I ride my bicycle for an hour a day. Being bend over the handle bar does tense my shoulders and neck, so thats a downside, but the best part is the tempo i ride with. Making sure the bloodflow is stimulated. Its like doing a warm up, and cooling down. You really flush your system and prevent the rustyness.

Some vitemine suplements are also great, it really gives me an extra boost. So keeping an eye on what you eat is also important. Doesnt mean vegies everyday, but no yunkfood for 6 of the 7 days a week.

I got quite some more info if wanted, It took me a long time to figure out what works best for me.

Fuse · Feb 2009

The new apple keyboard works like magic, I've discovered space on my desk that I didnt know previously existed... I havent attempted to use the usb ports yet and I have to map the keys to things like printscreen and volume controls ...

I also got one of these since my desk at home is a little bit higher than most and I like to keep my elbows resting comfortably on the desk rather than the chair .. With this little puppy I can sit higher above my desk and still rest my feet on something sturdy...

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Fellowes-48121-Standard-Footrest-Adjustable/dp/B000BGLZTI/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=office-products&qid=1235481382&sr=8-2[/ame]

Frankie · Feb 2009

If riding you bicycle tenses your neck and shoulders maybe you should try adjusting your seat position? I think having it too far back makes you stretch for the bars and causes that problem, even just a small distance makes a big difference.

Rens · Feb 2009

very true, but im a real agressive rider, so i love my attack pose on the bike, rides best

I have a flatbar, far infront of me, so im always leaning on my arms*

glynnsmith · Feb 2009

Just noticed that Dell have cut their prices on the Logitech MX Revolution.

http://accessories.euro.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=uk&l=en&s=dhs&cs=ukdhs1&sku=570-10373

Might tempt me into a punt on my first mouse that isn't Microsoft-built.

Fuse · Feb 2009

I just ordered 2 of these from dell..

http://accessories.dell.com/sna/products/Displays/productdetail.aspx?c=ca&l=en&s=dhs&cs=cadhs1&sku=A0480033

Farfarer · Feb 2009

glynnsmith wrote: »

Just noticed that Dell have cut their prices on the Logitech MX Revolution.

http://accessories.euro.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=uk&l=en&s=dhs&cs=ukdhs1&sku=570-10373

Might tempt me into a punt on my first mouse that isn't Microsoft-built.

I've got one of those, also my first non-MS mouse. Great wee thing.

The middle mouse button is pretty akward to use (but it's not that bad as I just bound middle click to the thumb-button - you can get a third party SetPoint profile that lets you bind any button to anything you like).

And scroll wheels shouldn't be that fun

glynnsmith · Feb 2009

Talon wrote: »

I've got one of those, also my first non-MS mouse. Great wee thing.

The middle mouse button is pretty akward to use (but it's not that bad as I just bound middle click to the thumb-button - you can get a third party SetPoint profile that lets you bind any button to anything you like).

And scroll wheels shouldn't be that fun

Good to know

I ordered the MX 620 yesterday, and those Dell bastards had it at my door this afternoon. It's a solid mouse and I love the feel of it after the hour or so of use I dared to give it - Very comfortable and seemed to fit in my hand very well - before packing it back up and requesting for a recall :P

Ordered the MX Rev and am actually excited of its arrival.

Fuse · Mar 2009

the articulated lcd arms are magic, i dont know why i havent considered them sooner

Rens · Mar 2009

The mx is great indeed, i love the wheel, spinning it is quite a habit, also if im not doing anything.
Havent used it in a while though, since i got a tablet i dont want to use a mouse anymore.

The middle mouse of the mx is extreemly heavy to use for 3d though, pressing it is not fun.
So yea, change the settings and put it on the side on the mouse

The ergonomics thread

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