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American Auto Industry

Have any of you been keeping up with the news on the big 3? I'm personally torn on whether the government should bail them out or not. But I don't want to see millions of Jobs go down the drain, especially in times like this. The $15b didn't make it thru senate with only 52% of votes for it (needing at least 60). So now! the government may be forced to help the big 3 with the $700b TARP money. Here is a bit more info on it.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/11/bailout-bill-likely-to-fail-in-the-senate/

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/11/senate-fails-to-approve-automaker-bailout/

http://www.leftlanenews.com/report-white-house-may-be-forced-to-rescue-big-three-with-tarp.html

Seems the news also affected many world markets, mostly countries supplying the raw materials

Replies

  • Lee3dee
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    Lee3dee polycounter lvl 18
    stop paying celebrities money to endorse the product will save money! GM dropped Tiger woods others should follow.
  • Spark
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    Spark polycounter lvl 18
    It looks like they will be getting 14 billion to help them survive for a few more months, then will probably be coming back to beg for more. The UAW said that they would not reduce anyones pay ( avg $84 ), or drop jobs such as some who just sit at the plants all day getting money ( can't believe they have jobs like this ) Or go to a pay scale that Toyota and Honda have for there workers ( $34 ), who seem to be doing fine. To me, having a job is better than not having a job, and if you really care about the economy and the US like you have been saying all along ( UAW .) Then you shouldn't help bring down the big 3 by not trying to work it through this rough time, and the upper management should also take a huge cut as well ( like the CEO's making $1 a year like they proposed :)). Hopefully things will get better, but seeing how things are going on around here, I highly doubt a good outcome.

    Spark
  • Jonathan
    As long as they have the over-bearing unions, they will not be successful. If you watched 20/20 "Give me a break" segment, you probably saw where the union has forced several automakers to have "work banks," or basically, pay people for four years if a warhouse/facility shuts down.

    What do they pay them to do? They don't do anything, they just show up and get payed, without working, for four freakin' years!

    The average cost of their workers is over $70/hour, whereas other successful auto manufacturers have an average of $40/hour. Unions served a purpose, but for the most part, they are an old tumor that needs to be removed.

    As Jim Cramer said about a year ago, GM stopped making cars a long time ago, they now just provide healthcare.
    :poly125:
  • super_villain
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    super_villain polycounter lvl 11
    I wouldn't give them the money. They need to move to a more realistic pay scale. That will save them a ton of money right off the bat.
  • notman
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    notman polycounter lvl 18
    Yeah, I'm following very closely because my livelihood is based on the auto industry. I live in the Detroit area and I work for an auto supplier. One thing I can verify is it is dreary here. The housing market has gone to shit.... there are so many for sale sign, that they look like political campaign signs. My company has laid off over 1000 people so far. The Ford plant around the corner from here has been shut down (along with several others). Next week my company has a majority of the place shut down (unpaid). I'm one of the fortunate few who gets to work next week.

    What really pisses me off is seeing people online who want to see the CEOs suffer, so they don't want these LOANS to happen and for the Big 3 to go bankrupt. Why would you want to make the whole company and all the suppliers suffer because they have dumbasses in charge. I was fine with the suggestion of ousting Rick Wagoner from GM, but the company should still get the loan. It's very apparent here in Michigan how tightly the auto industry is tied to the economy.

    The other irritation is this asshole from Alabama whose state has vested interest in protecting foreign manufacturers, like Honda and Hyundai. He is determined to stop this loan from happening.

    And why is it that the big 3 have to jump through hoops for this money, while they just keep dropping dumptrucks of cash to the banking industry... who have continued to waste their money away? This is a LOAN not a bailout. It's not free cash. I could understand more anger about free cash, but not a loan.

    Eidt: Damn, took too long to post.... I agree about the unions. What the news isn't stating is how the union has already taken concessions this year, so the number you guys are posting are slightly out of date. They still are unrealistic compared to other manufacturers, but the union has made adjustments. I agree that they need to do more though. The mindset of the union employee is a tough one to crack. The union today is not like the union from the beginning of unions :/.
  • JO420
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    JO420 polycounter lvl 18
    Spark wrote: »
    It looks like they will be getting 14 billion to help them survive for a few more months, then will probably be coming back to beg for more. The UAW said that they would not reduce anyones pay ( avg $84 ), or drop jobs such as some who just sit at the plants all day getting money ( can't believe they have jobs like this ) Or go to a pay scale that Toyota and Honda have for there workers ( $34 ), who seem to be doing fine. To me, having a job is better than not having a job, and if you really care about the economy and the US like you have been saying all along ( UAW .) Then you shouldn't help bring down the big 3 by not trying to work it through this rough time, and the upper management should also take a huge cut as well ( like the CEO's making $1 a year like they proposed :)). Hopefully things will get better, but seeing how things are going on around here, I highly doubt a good outcome.

    Spark

    Im sorry but that hourly figure of $74 an hour is a lie,its utter bs. Average auto workers do not make that much an hour. That figure was put out there by a New York Times reporter with shit math skills and it was quickly picked up as a GOP talking point. Ill repeat it again,no auto worker makes that much an hour. The fact of the matter is that the UAW has already taken pay cuts in the past as well as benefits and why should these people suffer because of the the shit products their management have pushed into the U.S market.

    http://mediamatters.org/items/200811220004?f=h_top


    Blaming the auto workers for the shit desicions of the CEOs of the big three is a total canard. Instead of cheap little gimmicks like making $1 an hour how about these CEOs make plans to retool their companies to make cars people want to buy like electric and electric hybrids. THe UAW has made its mistakes mind you but thelions share of the blame needs to be placed squarely on where it deserves to be and thats with management.
  • AstroZombie
  • JO420
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    JO420 polycounter lvl 18
    [ame]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5871495968130273402&ei=m4RCSe-aJoqGiQKC5dS-DA&q=who+killed+the+electric+car&hl=en&dur=3[/ame]


    Another one of those brilliant management decisisons. The big reason foreign auto carmakers are destroying U.S auto makers is because they are making better more fuel efficient cars.
  • Heathmeister
    Ok here is what I think...

    If your going to bailout these big 3, then ask yourself one thing. How are they going to sell these new cars when more and more Americans are losing their jobs and cant afford to buy a car? So you will have less and less of the population buying cars. I just dont see the point when you wont have any buyers of this product?

    Did people even think of that?

    Now of course people think the CEOs deserve it and they should go bankrupt. Then there are those who say they deserve to get the bailout. For the ones who think they deserve the bailout is cause it is in your best interest cause itll keep you from going jobless. As for the others they dont care if it goes bankrupt they just dont want to give their tax dollars away.

    Everyone has their argument on this crap, and I personally dont see any bailouts helping anything here... America is just going to keep getting worse and worse and worse. Im not being negative I am just saying what will happen.

    I personally didnt like the fact tho the CEOs all showed up the first time in separate private jets to talk about their needs.

    I say help the people... we are the ones who bust our asses paying for every god to known tax. We pay for every single thing and yet we dont get the reward like these rich CEOs do. Its us the people who do all the work.... stop helping them and start helping the families of this country.... or else we will go bankrupt cause we wont have jobs to keep businesses running...

    Sorry rant............
  • JO420
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    JO420 polycounter lvl 18
    I would be for the bailout if these auto CEOs came in with clear goals to where their products will be in a few years. If they came Washington D.C and said we need this money to retool our factories to make cars that get more mileage,are cleaner,hybrids and even electric cars i would say give them the bailout. If they get this loan and keep producing the same shit type of cars they will be back in D.C in a few months to ask for another loan.

    As the poster above me mentioned the fact they all flew in their private jets the first time shows you where management had their priorities.
  • Jeremy Lindstrom
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    Jeremy Lindstrom polycounter lvl 18
    Capitalism, let them fail. They need to merge and stop leaving soooo many empty cars on a freakin lot. I recall a figure somewhere, got to go look it up now, that there were like 2 cars on a lot for every person in the country or something ridiculous like that.

    Merge companies, and change how you do business and you might possibly stay around. That's what capitalism is about supply and demand, if the demand isn't there you don't get the right to continue to supply and overflow the channels and now you have a surplus and no demand and want our money? Big FU to that.
  • Spark
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    Spark polycounter lvl 18
    If the avg that they make isn't an average of $74 dollars an hour then my bad. I agree with Dekard though, let some of them fail and go into bankruptsy ( sp? ) to restructure and come out better in the end. Yes the bailout of the banks is BS, and they needed to let some of them go under as there are to many of them, but letting an industry that refuses to change continue and waste tax payers money isn't a good move either.]

    Spark
  • notman
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    notman polycounter lvl 18
    That's the thing... they are changing. They are working on hybrids, and actually sell several already. The problem is, to continue this change, they need assistance, just like foreign manufacturers get from their government.

    And to clear up those salary numbers, most line workers make around $20/hr, but when you add in their other compensations, like vacation, medical insurance, pensions, etc... Those same numbers could be calculated for anyone's job.

    Again, bankruptcy will hurt this economy way more than you can even imagine. 4.5 million jobs are at stake here. It's not about teaching unions and CEOs a lesson.
  • Jeremy Lindstrom
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    Jeremy Lindstrom polycounter lvl 18
    4.5 million jobs aren't a good thing to have when there's no reason to build something because nobody's buying your product.
  • notman
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    notman polycounter lvl 18
    That number is based on all the industries tied to the auto industry. You have the auto engineering and production, but then you have supplier engineering and manufacturing, chemical companies, steel companies, ...
  • pliang
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    pliang polycounter lvl 17
    In regards to the request for money from the bailout money, might as well use it to bailout Iceland.
  • Master_v12
    Its not just about the jobs, its also on the economical impact of bankruptcy and the unemployment checks people will be applying for if the big 3 goes down. I read somewhere its going to cost the government more money (like 30 something billion) in the long run, if the big 4 do go down. ill try and find that article and post it. For now here is some more info

    DOW opens down sharply, President reconsiders tapping TARP funds
    http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/12/dow-opens-down-sharply-president-considers-tapping-tarp-funds/

    Workers wages the straw that broke the automakers' backs
    http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/12/workers-wages-the-straw-that-broke-the-automakers-backs/
  • JO420
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    JO420 polycounter lvl 18
    notman wrote: »
    That's the thing... they are changing. They are working on hybrids, and actually sell several already. The problem is, to continue this change, they need assistance, just like foreign manufacturers get from their government.

    And to clear up those salary numbers, most line workers make around $20/hr, but when you add in their other compensations, like vacation, medical insurance, pensions, etc... Those same numbers could be calculated for anyone's job.

    Again, bankruptcy will hurt this economy way more than you can even imagine. 4.5 million jobs are at stake here. It's not about teaching unions and CEOs a lesson.



    Well it isnt just fuel efficiency its also quality as well. American automobiles are not known for quality. Ive owned a used nissan i bought with 30k miles which ran better and required less repairs than the last new truck i bought which was a Ford ranger. The change you mention as well which they are undertaking is out of nescessity not choice,when it came to fuel usage standards in the U.S Detroit automakers have fought tooth and nail to keep mileage standards to 1970's levels as well as emission standards. In terms of fuel efficient cars their foreign competitors beat them to the punch.

    I can agree that these jobs are important to the economy but i did not want to see them hand them over tons of taxpayer money without any sort of plan on how they were going to turn things around.

    I see two ways they can do this first is fuel effcient/hybrid technology in cars and also manufacturing non auto related products. If President Elect Obama really intends to invest money in infrastructure to improve our roads,bridges,etc this will be a project massive in scale and will require alot of machinery to do so. Detroit can retool some of their factories to make these types of machinery to be used in this massive public works project that will hopefully come.
  • steady
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 18
    From the articles I've read...Ford is doing OK. Ford has taken early steps at preparing their business for a recession. They began downsizing the workforce to equal demand. Ford has stated that they will not accept the bail out. It's GM and Chrysler that are suffering for years of poor decisions and management. But, because of the complex nature of the business...Ford wants those two to remain is business. All three have normally flooded the market with vehicles despite lack of demand. Now they're paying for it.

    I think two of the automakers should go under, and take the consequences of bad business. Businesses end, and people lose jobs. That's life in a capitalist nation. Why should this situation be any different? If anything, give the money to the folks who lose their job, so they can comfortably find jobs elsewhere.

    I hate watching TV. I hate it because of all the many commercials. Car commercials. Every 10 minutes. Buy this. BUY THIS! Look how awesome it is. Look how easily it does things you'll never do with it.

    For decades, the automakers have been telling the people what they want, instead of giving them what they need. Only shifting to what is demanded when profit can be made. But still, they ignore long term goals. This is why they've fallen behind every other automaker in the world when it comes to efficiency.

    There's a recent joke that starts with "The CEOs of the three major automakers drive to Washington in their company's best Hybrid vehicle...". The punchline is, they get less gas mileage than any Japanese hybrid. Knowing American CEOs, they were likely driving SUV hybrids. More realisticly, they took their jets. The questions is: why didn't they drive together. Why didn't they take the train? The answer is easy...and it's the reason why the failed automaker won't be changing their attitudes quickly enough if the government is throwing money at them. Is it likely that the companies will be using the funds to quickly restructure their plants, and boost production of "alternatives"?

    I hate that the plan for selling more SUVs, is to make them Hybrids. They'll get an "amazingly fuel efficient" 20 to 25 miles per gallon.

    Let GM and Chrysler, and their shitty cars, die. Let the suppliers of expensive, easily broken parts, wise up to a new model for business. Let the designers create engines that are easier to fix, or fail less. Let Ford keep doing what they do. Open the market to alternatives. And shift the countries backbone to something that's more beneficial in the long run. Hopefully the oil companies will soon follow GM and Chrysler.

    I recently sold my Dodge car. I don't regret it. My gf's Dodge just died. Shitty cars. Not one of them makes the consumer report on reliability and satisfaction. I want a Honda. Until then, I have a motorcycle, or I take a train. And I carpool all the time! How un-American of me.
  • Dusty
    Thats capitalism. Here in Dallas there are 2 studios left, luckily we have great management. Other studios havent been so lucky. Bad management cant be fixed by a bailout/loan.
  • Master_v12
    There was a time i could agree about the shitty American car deal. Well, i still kinda do but only with Chrysler. GM stepped up to the plate but has recently fallen back again. Ford in the other hand, is currently the most reliable of all three. Its currently up there in reliability with Toyota and Honda. Ford is also coming out with their Hybrid sedan this coming year, the fusion will get 38 mpg. and the Ford fiesta will do close to 60 mpg. They also aren't coming out with a 6.0+ litter gas guzzling muscle car like gm and Chrysler have. I don't really remember where i was going with this lol. But when all this is over, i foresee Chrysler going down the drain even with government help. GM already secured some money from private investors, ford has like a $30b stash. and they are both getting some help from the swedish government because of Volvo and Saab.

    EDIT:Elysium worded it pretty well
  • notman
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    notman polycounter lvl 18
    That's a problem too... they aren't known for quality, but they have really improved there quality in the last decade. Given that there are still bad designs out there, but there is for all manufacturers (including companies known for quality). I won't comment on your Ranger, since I wouldn't say anything nice ;) I know they weren't great vehicles, but that really is a result of the big 3 trying to cut costs to keep their profit expectations up.

    I'm really a GM fan, even though I'm driving a foreign car right now (just renewed my Jetta lease with an '09). My wife's vehicle is a Pontiac Montana and it has 90k miles. It's just starting to have small issues. Prior to my last Jetta, I had a 92 Pontiac Bonneville, and when I sold it, there were over 150k miles on it. It still ran great, but the Michigan weather had taken it's toll on the body... plus I needed better gas mileage.
  • notman
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    notman polycounter lvl 18
    All three makers have hybrids in both car and SUV format. The Volt is what GM drove up in and it's basically an electric car with a gas generator. It dominates anything the foreign makers offer. If you drive less than 40miles a day, you won't even use a drop of fuel

    Dodge has been working on this:
    chrysler_ev_03.jpg
  • TomDunne
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    TomDunne polycounter lvl 18
    This is a very interesting topic :D

    About the issue of salaries and the $73/hour number, that's kind of correct. In terms of salaries and benefits, union autoworkers make about $55/hour. that compares to about $45/hour from non-union workers (employees as Japanese firms are all non-union.) The extra cost is what the Big 3 owe to their legions of UAW retirees. Every union man who retired from GM, Ford or Chrysler is entitled to a very good retirement package, way better than even current members will get, and far superior to the non-union crowd. Things is, those retirees from the 70s, 80s, 90s, etc keep piling up, while sales keep going down. In paying for the retirees as well as the current labor force, the Big 3 end up paying what amounts to about $73/hour.

    I appreciate the concept of unions in principle, and they were certainly necessary once upon a time, I think it's clear the UAW is currently doing its members more harm than good. Eventually, the issue will be to make concessions or find new jobs when the American auto industry goes under.

    On the other hand, those salaries aren't the reason the companies are going under. Basically, no one wants to buy American. While things are allegedly getting better, the Big 3 have earned the rep for selling an inferior product. Even if it's just a perception issue, it's putting car-buying dollars in foreign companies' pockets. The American companies really do need to get their shit together in terms of restructuring.

    This also leads to the issue of why the bailout may be 'necessary.' In general, if a company goes bankrupt, they can restructure, get back on their feet and return to profitability sooner or later. Happens all the time in different industries and no one thinks anything of it. But the American auto industries have that giant perception issue to deal with as well, making bankruptcy survival that much harder. Say you're already not inclined to buy a Chevy. Now imagine how you'd feel about buying a Chevy when you know the company is going bankrupt. Doesn't matter what kind of sale they have, no one wants to buy a car that might not be able to get parts and service or lose it's warranty because the manufacturer went under. So where most industries can navigate a bankruptcy with success, the Big 3 might never recover.

    I'm of two minds on how this should be handled. On the one side, I'm a big fan of capitalism - the cream rises, as they say. On the other, putting more hundreds of thousands of Americans out of work in the middle of the worst recession in a generation is not ideal.
  • Mark Dygert
    Ford says it probably won't touch the money.
    Chrysler has a big pocket of cash that is Cerberus.
    GM is the only one circling the drain.

    Isn't giving money to people who can't pay it back what started this whole mess? If people who's job it is to loan money, won't loan themselves money why in the hell should we be expected to make the loan?

    Yes its a loan, but a loan is only as good as the chance that it will be repaid. Otherwise its just money down the tubes. If we actually had the money and didn't have to ratchet up the national debt some more AND they had a clear path to profitability we should do it.

    I consider the TARP money as good as gone, so it might as well come from that. Too bad they don't get to put strings on it... oh well.
  • rebb
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    rebb polycounter lvl 17
    vermilion wrote: »
    On the one side, I'm a big fan of capitalism - the cream rises, as they say.

    Well, at least the cream that really gets off on money and status.
  • Jeremy Lindstrom
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    Jeremy Lindstrom polycounter lvl 18
    notman wrote: »
    All three makers have hybrids in both car and SUV format. The Volt is what GM drove up in and it's basically an electric car with a gas generator. It dominates anything the foreign makers offer. If you drive less than 40miles a day, you won't even use a drop of fuel

    Dodge has been working on this:
    chrysler_ev_03.jpg

    Yay, another hybrid for rich fuckers. Like the average american can afford a standard viper let alone a hybrid ffs.. this is the problem :D
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 18
    OMFG, i dodge viper hybrid?! I've been looking for one to replace my V10 model.
  • Mark Dygert
    Viper hybrid, or full on electric sports car that's actually faster(less weight)?
    If they can get the top end working great, then the tech should trickle down and it should be possible to convert it to cheaper forms for the masses. Tesla is planning on a geared down fully electric version for roughly 30k, well within the reach of most new car buyers.

    If that happens you can count the Volt as antiquated technology along with the other hybrids.

    Not that they need it but I'd rather see the money go to companies with a clean slate and very clear plan for success, like Tesla.
  • Jeremy Wright
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    Jeremy Wright polycounter lvl 17
    Dekard wrote: »
    Yay, another hybrid for rich fuckers. Like the average american can afford a standard viper let alone a hybrid ffs.. this is the problem :D


    You took the words out of my mouth.

    My Dad's a Buick Technician, so I feel for the workers, at the same time, is this money even going to make a difference in the long run?
  • Ryno
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    Ryno polycounter lvl 18
    Bail them out, but with rigorous demands for fuel efficiency, alternative power, safety, and quality. On top of that, salary guidelines or limits for the upper echelon.

    It would be a massive hit to our economy if even one of the big three went out of business. If more than that, it would be catastrophic. Local dealers, part suppliers, various manufacturing and other peripheral smaller industries who are already struggling due to the credit crunch would be in deep shit.

    So, allow them to keep afloat with some stipulations and oversight.
  • diminished_Self
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    diminished_Self polycounter lvl 12
    i say bail them out, but with this caveat: get rid of the fucking unions and get rid of the entire upper management.

    its a wonder that theyve been able to compete as long as they have saddled with the ridiculous fucking unions. every single car they make has an unseen $2000 extra cost included in production to take care of union pensions. plus this:

    comp.jpg

    is fucking bullshit. seriously. what the fuck are they doing that they think they should earn over 123% more than people doing the same exact work in another sector? just me or does it seem like the unions have basically fucked the big 3 almost out of existence?

    in case you couldnt tell im anti union. they had theyre time and place, but the government (in the US anyways) guarantees all the things that the union had to fight tooth and nail for. so if the government guarantees all the basic workers rights, and you have nothing to fight for....i guess you fight for more money, whether you need it or not. and essentialy sink your entire industry.
  • Jeremy Lindstrom
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    Jeremy Lindstrom polycounter lvl 18
    we also don't need dealership after dealership after dealership after dealership after dealership, ....
  • notman
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    notman polycounter lvl 18
    Don't worry about that... dealerships have been closing as a result of the economy. Soon there won't be many at all. Personally, I like having a lot of dealerships. It creates competition and convenience. I don't need a Walmart on every corner either, but they exist. My VW dealership is about 15 miles from my house, and about 25 from my work. I'd prefer more VW dealerships for my own convenience ;)

    Honestly though, GM has been wanting to control their own dealerships. They don't own any of the current dealerships, and have contracts with those dealerships, preventing them from starting their own. I think GM realized a long time ago that the dealerships are part of their negative sales. Most American dealerships in my area treat you like shit, but the manufacturer can't do much about that.

    BTW, I knew that Viper was unrealistic for most of us. I just thought it was a cool vehicle they were developing ;) That technology will trickle down into smaller, more affordable vehicles. They actually have a concept right now, but I didn't want to show it because it's much further off than what Ford and GM have.
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 18
    Every street corner in America should have a Starbucks, a Walmart, a Car Dealership, and a Church. If only there were a way to combine them.
  • notman
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    notman polycounter lvl 18
    Give Walmart some time ... or Costco basically has all that already, just needs the Church ;)
  • Master_v12
  • notman
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    notman polycounter lvl 18
    Wow, that's an interesting twist. The Canadian government is able to see how critical the auto industry is their own economy, apparently more than our government realizes. I know GM has quite a few plants over there.
  • stimpack
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    stimpack polycounter lvl 10
    Giving a loan to a drowning company just ties you to that company. Now when they sink, your gonna sink with them. If they cant turn shit for profits now, how the hell do they exspect to pay back such a hefty loan in any reasonable amount of time? Now the govt, which isnt exactly in the positive on there bank acount, is going to hurt even more.

    ps. making sport car hybrids is fukn retarted. They need to be making electric festivas or something ugly and dirt cheap.
  • Mark Dygert
    Master_v12 wrote: »
    Wow that's amazing, thanks Canada!
    I hope they know it's money down the wood chipper, but its for a good cause... so thanks.
  • cochtl
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    cochtl polycounter lvl 18
    I like to see the banks' bailout as a naive girl's (govt's) first asshole boyfriend. Yeah he's a smooth talker and may have been great in bed in the past but the bottom line is that he is an asshole and tends to screw you over more than what you expect. So now that dude came and left so to speak and now the heartbroken girl is a little bit wiser when it comes to giving up the goods to just anyone. This is where the auto industry is at right now with the government.
    And iirc the failed bailout has some concessions that the UAW didn't agree to, like taking a pay cut or facing a chapter 11 restructuring (which has the potential to kill off the union which they think is bad). The alternative they imposed was to take a minor pay cut in 2011 or 2013, years down the line with no real changes involved. This is one of those damned if you do damned if you don't type of situations because of how intertwined the auto industry is with the economy, but I'd rather just see that money given out to help people in more direct ways across the country than blindly throwing money at a market that has a botched and bloated business model.
  • James Edwards
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    James Edwards polycounter lvl 18
    Awesome. Now they want to take money out of my pocket too. This shit was frustrating to have to watch from across the border as it is but I'll be fucking pissed if our government hands them a dime. I know one thing for certain though. If canada does give them a single loonie I'll never buy one of their cars again.
  • Joopson
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    Joopson quad damage
    Great, add more to our 56 some odd trillions in debt! we don't mind...

    Oh, wait. 56 trillion? no way!
    Yep. That includes medicare/medicaid, Social Security checks and such, and all those other things along with our Debt to other countries (I think only 11 trillion.. haha, only)
    But yeah, as you can see, we owe OUR OWN PEOPLE more than we owe other countries, so our country will really go to shit when those Baby Boomers start to cash in those social security checks... Fun stuff!

    Check this out to learn where our debts all come from:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_TjBNjc9Bo&eurl=http://truthoffering.squarespace.com/economics/&feature=player_embedded

    It's amazing how our country let it get this bad, and yet willingly continues to make it worse.
    This Bailout is just another example of why our Country, at this point in time, does suck.

    -Andy
  • Michael Knubben
    I only found out last week you Americans are on some adjusted scale of numbers, so my mental image of what so-many billion went into the bailout, and how much is needed for this had to be severely adjusted.

    Non-english people represent! Longscale numbers for life.

    For those who don't know: English-speaking countries (mostly) apparantly don't like words ending in 'illiard', so they just made billion etc... scoot ahead.
  • Marcus Dublin
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    Marcus Dublin polycounter lvl 17
    Check out Michael Moore’s brilliant documentary on the auto industry Roger and Me: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3622789144304528932&hl=en-CA
  • Mark Dygert
    notman wrote: »
    And to clear up those salary numbers, most line workers make around $20/hr, but when you add in their other compensations, like vacation, medical insurance, pensions, etc... Those same numbers could be calculated for anyone's job.
    Yes it can, but that's not what people hear when the $80 per hour stats where thrown around. It was a clear jab at the unions... Everyone automatically thought "JEEZ, dismantle the unions they're monsters! They get paid that much and have benefits!"
    (I'm talking about the media and the people who generated those numbers, not anyone here in particular)

    It's also important to note that figure also includes benefits to 1st, 2nd, 3rd generation retirees. So it even factors in benefits the workers of today have. I'm not sticking up for the unions, because they are partly to blame, but really as a company they shouldn't make promises they can't keep, or deals they know will drive them under, just like they shouldn't design cars no one will buy.

    When their ad campaigns are really nothing more then:
    "Buy American, or the commies win" (feel free update commies with whatever)."
    &
    "Buy American our pick-ups haul TONS of groceries. Literally 3.2 metric TONS of bananas, or a TON of dog food, or a TON of fertilizer, because the only thing bigger then your truck, is your lawn!"
    &
    "Because pavement DEMANDS 4WD, BIG TIRES & 2MPG!"
    &
    "Remember its not American unless it needs to be filled up 3x a week"
  • aesir
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    aesir polycounter lvl 18
  • Mark Dygert
    Actually, I want to know exactly what each persons cost of the bail will be, and then they give everyone that money with a restriction that it must go toward the purchase of their next new car. People can buy foreign, or American, hybrid, electric, or SUV, doesn't matter, its a free market. If they want my bail out money, earn it...
  • snemmy
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    snemmy polycounter lvl 18
    Take a few of the millions from each of the executives and place it back into the industry. Get rid of private jets, executive suites and all that jazz...
    Cap their salaries at $1 million a year.. problem solved. :p
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