I don't know the actual statistics, but I assume a lot of casual games make a lot of money because they are usually pretty cheap and they target casual gamers that don't want to spend the time downloading or figuring out how to get illegal programs.
There's no way you're gonna stop piracy, either the consumers themselves do it or like some others were saying there are still "boot leggers" and stuff, especially in Asia. Your best bet, if you're worried about profits, is to make fun little games that cost 1/3 the price of a big-budget game (for the consumer), are potentially more fun than those games, and cost less to develop.
Basically, large games like GOW2 that tons of people want to play can only be protected by requiring a unique ID for playing online (like an MMO); otherwise you're gonna have piracy.
I so empathize with WhiteEagle and Toast - i haven't bought a new game since the orange box for PC came out - and only cause i could justify paying a small fortune for the three games - not one....
my ass is still a bit sore from EB raping myself and other aussie customers.....
oh - and i got epic - pissed at the money grubbing whore of a commercial store that would still sell a $90+ 'Alone in the Dark', and forget to inform that ' hey, the game doesn't actually work properly, and there won't be any patches - oh but you can trade it in after you purchase it without any playing for 35$ if that, cheers would you like a receipt for that?......'
(then again i was a stupid douche not to wait for an actual gameplay review from an independant source, rather than the hyped in-company promotional material )
Not meaning any disrespect, blaizer, but that castle is probably a small one made out of sand, and would wash away at tide. I used to be a big pirate back in the day, and from my own experience I would have bought maybe 5 out of 100 games that I pirated. Copying them stemmed from curiosity about the games and wanting to have played them all for at least an hour or two for some kind of weird bragging right..
You also need to think realistically about this. A great percentage of people can not buy the games they pirate, because they pirate more games than they could afford, even on a good pay. Though neither of us have any proof either, so let's just call it a draw and agree to disagree :P
heh, if you talk about pirating all the games, download all the games... then just forget what i said lol, the castle would be very small. I was talking about the games we like :P. I barely buy 6 games per year, there aren't good games for my taste, only a few.
There's a problem with all this, and it's that people want to play ALL at 0 cost. I'm agree with you, but i must say that too much people don't buy games, and they can afford them perfectly. Games are "free" in the internet, so they don't buy them, money they save for other things.
piracy=worse games
Each year, there are worse games for PC. Piracy can not be stopped, but yes mitigated. I would kill all those websites offering links and torrents... the more difficult to get something illegal, the better for the developers/authors (more incomes=better games and more jobs).
Our connection to the internet is also a target , in some countries if you download too much, they ask you "what do you do" if you download in encrypted mode. In Japan as example, if they find you downloaded illegal content, you end blacklisted and banned form the internet service. harsh?
In the european community are studying how to stop this huge problem. With such % of piracy = no business making games.
steam games are also pirated and all can be hackable..
-giggle- Dongles... -giggle- Ok, does no one else keep reading that word in this thread and giggling a little, or is it just me? Cause it kinda sounds like... you know... teehee.
(Sorry. Thought the thread could use a pointless light-hearted break. Continue with the regularly scheduled heated debate. )
On a serious note though, I know 10 year olds that play pirated games, hell they even know how to patch then recrack the damn things. I'm sure you will find that a large % of people who use pirated games are between say 12 and 16. The reason behind this is that their parents refuse to pay say ~$60 for a game (depending on what country you are in and obviously the game) when that same ~$60 can buy them a new pair of jeans or a nice shirt. Now, if the kid asks for a master chief backpack or shirt yada yada odds are, the parents will get it for them. Its like what has been said earlier in the thread, games fail because of bad marketing and or just being a shit overpriced product. Money is there to be made if publishers play their cards right.
If the game won't sell but is getting a lot of play then make merchandise for it that kids will want. Ala $500 masterchief helmet :P
How effective is it at stopping piracy? It seems pretty useful since you can't do anything with a login?
Yeah, that's something like what consoles are doing, with buy-over-Intarwebs kind games that you need legit accounts to access. The problem is, as soon as it's on one guy's hard drive, he's free to rip it loose, crack it and upload it as a stand-alone product for everyone to grab for free.
Have to agree with Elysium, the advent of internet has created more and more pirates because the weren't going to buy the game in the first place. What it boils down to is lost sales though. Games, with the exception of some, are not the equivalent of crack, nicotine, etc. addiction. People will not go and steal money to buy a game, instead they'll steal a game. Piracy has been rife for a long time though, and it hasn't exactly stunted the growth of the games industry. I for one, have bought games then hardly played them, under what is that situation classed? The online/multiplayer aspect of games is definitely the most user friendly way of deterring piracy, but I believe in the freedom of not having to be on the internet to play a game, which is why steam annoys me.
Blaizer,you do have some good points there about how some people want to play all games for free, completely, but I think overall people do want to pay for things, and they would, if they could.
The PC games market isn't dying because of piracy. It's dying because it's not accessible anymore in a time where everything has become streamlined and accessible, making people lazy and comfortable ("what? open my PC and put in a new graphics card? wut?"). Hell, the PC games market isn't dying, period. The PC games market is changing, leaning more to casual games (e.g. PopCap), or niche markets with a low development cost and high return (e.g. Stardocks Sins of a Solar Empire (didn't even have copy protection(!), was pirated, but made a respectable profit that the developer and publisher seem happy with)).
And you know what, I'm happy with that.
As for Steam, if I remember correctly games delivered via Steam were cracked and pirated first week. But Steam's strength doesn't lie in being able to securely lock games down. This is impossible to do. Steam's strength is in its accessibility and ease of use (no more hunting for patches), and the fact that it's so easy to just impulse-buy games. You don't have time to change your mind on your 30 minute trip to Wal-Mart/Tesco/Game.
Mezz, yeah it -was- kinda hard to write about dongles with a straight face :P But I'm used to it, in our office we have a really fantastic juvenile level of humour where someone will sneak up to your PC when you leave it unattended, start MS Paint, quickly draw the most disgusting cock you can imagine, and then put it as the wallpaper. And to imagine we make Lego games that kids enjoy :poly142:
...the advent of internet has created more and more pirates because they weren't going to buy the game in the first place. What it boils down to is lost sales, though.
I think as long as it's worth discussing, people will keep discussing it. If not, the topic will drop to the bottom out of view, the way a forum is supposed to work. Unless of course moderators and admins decide to act and ruin the natural order of things :P
From what I've read on this issue that seems to be a key component in this, availability.
People seem much more inclined to pirate if what they want can't be had easily (read that as one-click-wonder, conspicuous consumerism). I've often thought, when I read between the lines, that gamers pirate in that context with 'spite' as a motivating factor, "if I can't get it officially (cheap), then feck um, I'll just download it".
You don't combat piracy, you reduce the need for it to be there in the first place. Why am I gonna bother to wait weeks for some crappy slow torrent to feed me my favorite game, laden with viruses, when I can purchase it on the cheap 1-click style and not worry about modding my freakin xbox or whatever?
Absolutely. And its funny, because everyone (including every freaking CEO) knows this, but the industry has been so slow to adopt this method.
In addition to reducing the need for piracy, games need to provide incentives for legit sales. Lots of this is online connectivity, because when people connect, they are validated. But it doesn't have to be online games like TF2, or an MMO, or whatever. Look at something like Spore- the game would suck if you weren't online, you'd be missing so much of the content. Even things like Achievements, leaderboards, etc., provide an incentive to buy. I would freaking hate if a game artificially put these restrictions in place, but when they form part of the experience and fundamentally require connectivity, it provides a strong discouragement to using a pirated copy.
There are so many more options than what the music industry has done, because our product is fundamentally different. DRM is a complete failure and more companies (Blizzard?) are acknowledging this. Take away incentive to pirate (make games available digitally, and cheaper, and maybe offer SP/MP components seperately?), and add incentive to purchase (enhance the experience through online connectivity).
If games were cheaper, would there be no piracy? I doubt it (although it may be reduced a little), but if games were cheaper then more would be purchased by the non-pirates.
But can we sell games for cheaper? Digital downloads would point towards that, but as we have seen, that's not always the case. I suppose we'd firstly need to know what the retail markup was for a game.
Most things at retail get 100%-150% of markup, but I'm sure that games aren't that high and are closer to a 25-30% markup (some claim that it's actually under 10%).
You'd think that moving to a purely digital distribution would cut out the middleman (the physical retailers), therefore lowering games by (the hypothetical) 25-30%, but have we not already had proof that this is not the case? Fearing lack of support from retailers, digital downloads are priced the same as physical media, but the profits go to the publishers and not the shop.
lol, just saw Indian_Boy's thread. Damn, if the kid is going to buy it anyway, who cares if he played the pirate copy? He claims he played a demo at some gamers conference. Whatever the case, rather than being pissed that someone (maybe) played a pirate copy, be glad they are still going to support you by buying the game. Shit if all players of pirate material baught every game they liked your sales would be through the roof.
IB has been on these board about as long as I have and all of us older members have given him tips and crits and he has always had a good attitude and supported PC. I highly doubt he is lying about getting the game.
You don't combat piracy, you reduce the need for it to be there in the first place. Why am I gonna bother to wait weeks for some crappy slow torrent to feed me my favorite game, laden with viruses, when I can purchase it on the cheap 1-click style and not worry about modding my freakin xbox or whatever?
People are like electricity they follow the path of least resistance. Music piracy isn't what it once was largely because cheap,easy and legal methods have finally been created. What per talks about, I see as the only real "solution" to recoup some of the lost money due to piracy.
I'm not a huge gamer, I tend to get into a game and beat it to death for a few years. I have never hacked any console games, the ones i have for PsOne and DS, I bought. I have downloaded cracked games for PC, namely Portal and Unreal3, which I purchased shortly after. Most of the games I play come from Steam, which I buy legally [CS, HL, Tf2]. If I download a game, I make a point of buying it as soon as I have the money to. This may not be the most honorable course of action, but I do buy them, and try to get them before the price goes down as a tip of the hat to the developers. Please don't ban me...:)
lol Good point... I do have a fair bit of downloaded music, I won't lie :P
However, when it comes to an artist I really like or a CD I really enjoy, I will buy it. Random singles I like but don't like more from the same artist I'll just download, and yes, this comes to the mentality of "I wouldn't have bought it anway". I'm not saying this isn't stealing or not 'wrong' in any way, but making sure I still support what I like most let's me live with myself. lol
I think games are a bit different... one song and one game are pretty different in comparrison. Not that I'm saying there isn't good work that goes into every song, but there's a lot more that does go into every game. I'd feel much different about stealing a game, even if I 'wouldn't have bought it anyway.'
Just how I feel personally. :P But yeah, touchy subject overall...
If gamers/consumers could buy every game/media on a system like live, steam, or itunes from the device they are using to look for the game and have it ready to play in a few seconds why would they even think to steal it?
App stores are the way all things digital should be. User sees an advert for something does a search for it or clicks on the ad and Wa La! they can demo it and if they like it buy it. How simple is that for consumers. Music, games, and movies all should be this easy to own. Add on top of that servers that track what you own so that you always own it. You don't need to have a hard copy of it just redownload it when you want it. Not buying media from the servers would mean that you would be able to have it on demand and if you delete it its gone. For us thats nothing but if your used to that never being true then that would really suck.
If you want to keep your brick and mortar stores you would need to have when your rung up it sends off the "cd key" to a sever where it waits for the buyer to play it, where it can verify the "cd key" on the disc with one bought. Then once those are checked it would again be available to download to any device its made for just like buying it online.
If people can get anything for free, and get it easily, then they will.
...And that pretty much sums up the issue. If anything is accessible consequence-free, people will grab it. Though illegal or morally reprehensible, you just won't be able to convince them not to. Some companies attempt to get around this by making free content harder to acquire. This is what the home console industry benefits from. It is harder to get pirated console games than it is to get pirated PC games.
And so some companies try to make it as hard as possible to actually play a game. Unfortunately, they can't distinguish between someone who paid for a game and someone who didn't. So they end up making it harder to play for everyone. And increasing the difficulty or frustration of using a product the way it is meant to be used makes it a harder sell.
Then there are the companies who sell a service, rather than a product. If the service is something that is borrowed, rather than owned, than they never have to worry about it being stolen. This is true for services like Netflix, iTunes, and World of Warcraft. (and by extension, all other MMOs)
And lastly, there are the companies who simply say "screw it." Sometimes they just sell the game without any copy protection, and hope for the best. Some of these have managed to do well for themselves. But they have also tended to have produced lower-budget niche titles. And of course, the "free" games also fall into this category. They distribute their games free of charge, and make money off of advertising or merchandising.
Perhaps one of the most appealing concepts for developers is digital download services. These are a hybrid of an on-line service and a purchasing system. You never really get to "own" the games, but it kind of feels like you do. Steam, XBox Live Arcade, PSN network games, and Wii Virtual Console and WiiWare all work in this fashion. Developers like these systems because they provide a similar structure to the stores people are used to buying from, while offering the security of an on-line service.
lol Good point... I do have a fair bit of downloaded music, I won't lie :P
However, when it comes to an artist I really like or a CD I really enjoy, I will buy it. Random singles I like but don't like more from the same artist I'll just download, and yes, this comes to the mentality of "I wouldn't have bought it anway". I'm not saying this isn't stealing or not 'wrong' in any way, but making sure I still support what I like most let's me live with myself. lol
I think games are a bit different... one song and one game are pretty different in comparrison. Not that I'm saying there isn't good work that goes into every song, but there's a lot more that does go into every game. I'd feel much different about stealing a game, even if I 'wouldn't have bought it anyway.'
Just how I feel personally. :P But yeah, touchy subject overall...
so you'd advocate reverse engineering, and porting of files from one game into another? after all, people might not want to play the whole game, but some characters might look cool to them.
i'm in the middle of recording a second album, and i've gotta say i'd be fucking pissed if i found out someone had downloaded one of my tracks without paying for it. even my friends have all asked me "when can i buy the album" rather than "can i listen to the demo?".
my view on pirating games and music are much the same: if there is a free demo, take it. if you like the demo, buy the full product. if you don't, then don't play it anymore.
Where the Fug is my Fallout 3 Demo...I know..not happening...So I could go drop 60+ on a game that might be resting on the laurels of one of my all time favorite games...or I could download it and see if its more than just an Oblivion MOD...
Same with Music..Metalica just released a new one...I havnt liked a Metalica album since Justice...Rick Rubin produced it (Rubin has produced some bad ass albums in his time.) I was tempted to buy it...But I checked it first....no thank you..maybe one or two good songs..but not worth my 15 dollars...
You guys want the video game industry to become even bigger? With budgets rising through the roofs, I can't wait to see what you guys are saying when a few years from now when it starts to parallel the movie industry - minus the fact that it's expanding faster than investors and consumers can keep up.
It's almost impossible to open up a new AAA studio now, and with all the current big boy studios dropping out of the game(pun intended), the whole industry is heading toward a crash and burn.
Funneling more money toward large studios will solve the problem? Dream on, kids.
Zephir62 raises a valid point. It's not really possible to just "start up" a AAA studio. The only way you could possibly do it is with immense financial backing from investors. With the economy as it is, good luck trying to find willing investors for developing a AAA video game. (an endeavor that most investors already know is very high-risk) If your first game doesn't hit it big, its good bye investment capital, and good bye company.
Of course, there is considerably more opportunity these days for smaller developers, working on smaller projects. The industry had been trending away from these smaller projects for so long, that its actually nice to see them on the rise again. They are much lower risk than AAA development, so investors are more willing to pitch in. Expect to see a lot more polished, low-budget games in coming years that will be distributed over secure on-line services.
Yeah..then we can argue about what constitutes a tripple A game/Studio....if its how much money you can throw at something..then I guess everything that comes out of EA & Microsoft are aaa gems...
Sorry for the derailment...bacl to Piracy Arrrr ye boot is in me Booty
I download pirated games for one simple reason. It takes me up to 2 hours to download a Demo of a game I want to try from the official website, it takes me 45 mins to downlaod the full game from local torrent sites. I download the torrent then play the game for an hour or so and decide if I want it or not, then I either buy it or simply delete it. Oh and I never seed :P I'm not going to let other peeps benefit from my bandwidth for any longer than it takes me to download. Now if publishers had more servers in more countries I wouldn't need to do this. I would simply download the demo. Before anyone jumps down my throat, I don't downlaod many games and of 5 games I download over say 6 months I buy 4 and I never actually finish the game before I buy it. The one main downfall of pirated shit is that it tends to be unstable, have missing content as well as being unpatchable without needing to browse virus infected hack sites for an updated crack. Frankly, thats just not worth the effort to me so I just buy it and be done with the headaches. As a means to "try and buy" tho it works out better and qucker for me than the official demos seeing as I can download them at 3mb/s as apposed to 290kb/s. I only wish that I had actual game stores here, I am an impulsive buyer and would certainly buy a lot more games if I could walk into a store and see rows and rows of shelves with games in my area of interest. Sadly, there is only one store in my city that has games and they are still charging more than 2x the US release price for HL2. Thank god for steam or I never would have played HL2/ep1/ep2 at all. This is the kind of thing that makes piracy such an issue in developing countries. But, if I'm not mistaken, most publishers guage success from the US and possibly UK markets and consider any sales outside of that a bonus (feel free to correct me here).
Give me good fast demos servers and a quick and easy way to pay for my games and I will buy a lot more games, untill then I will stick to buying my 3/4 titles a year and trying out maybe 10 titles a year via torrent. Shit, why not have the demos up on publishers OWN torrent sites, you can password torrents and I'm sure with a little work on the format it could be made a secure method of sales and download (alla Itunes etc).
[edit] I also only downlaod ISOs so when I buy a game I just use my key unless there is some sort of securom or whatever, then I download it via the site I baught it from, usually at a pathetic speed that takes all day. I do my best to support the industry but with marketing such as it is its not easy to do so.
its a luxury, you cant have something for free claiming that it is too expensive, if it is too expensive dont buy it . Its like walking into the supermarket and stealing a sack of potatoes and when they stop you you say that you think potatos are too expensive so your taking them for free.
but still it happens because in reality there isnt anyone stopping you.
not saying im a saint tho , i know the right path it doesnt mean i walk it XD
It's always amazing to me how thieves can justify themselves at every turn...
"The game is too expensive."
"Demos rarely work, and take just as long to download."
"The demo was buggy."
"They didn't provide a demo."
"I preordered it already."
....and so on.
The fact remains, you're STILL a thief. Additionally, in most cases, you got your STOLEN game from a torrent. Therefor, you helped SHARE the STOLEN game out to other THIEVES that may not share your.....moral code.
Have we forgotten what happened to our friends at Iron Lore? A shitty crack made the game hit a security "checkpoint" and crash to the desktop. Say what you will about the methods.."they should have had a message box, yada yada.". I'm sure there were countless THIEVES that thought the game itself was buggy, and decided not to purchase the game after their "personal demo". Obviously this wasn't the sole reason of Iron Lore shutting down...but damn, sure as hell didn't help.
Stop justifying your THEFT. You're still a thief, and it's a despicable thing to do if you're currently, or aspiring to be, in the industry.
Dude, get off your high horse. If one person on these boards tells me they have never used pirated media then they are lying. Is it theft? yes it is. do I know it? yes I do. Do I care? No I bloody well don't. Why? Because unlike the millions of people out there that play pirated games with no intention of buying, I DO purchase my games. If you have ever "leant" a copy of a game to a friend, I highly doubt you did so without giving them the cd key, THAT is also piracy according to the laws of the thing. If you have ever "borrowed" a game from a friend so is that. At the end of the day, digital media is rife with piracy right up to the highest levels.
Don't get me wrong here. I hate to see a studio go under because of piracy, shit, Troika that developed Bloodlines went down in part because of it. But they also went down because they got screwed by the publishers and Valve and that played a far larger part in it than piracy. Whenever piracy is attributed to a company going under there are usually far larger issues responsible leading up to that point. More often than not it is simply the last nail in a coffin that has been under construction for some time before.
What do you want from me? I buy my games and I try to get my friends to do the same. As for "getting into the industry" I have no intention of doing that, never have and never will. I am a 3d artist becuase I am an artist not because I want to make a living off it. For the record I am retired and have been since I was 25. I have already worked my ass off to make a living and now that I have the means to no longer need to do that I just want to have a few hobbies I enjoy. Am I a theif? Don't care so long as I do what I think is right. If you want to discourage people from buying games then keep at it like you are Lars.
Stop justifying your THEFT. You're still a thief, and it's a despicable thing to do if you're currently, or aspiring to be, in the industry.
I hear the BSA is offering $50,000 for reports on pirated and stolen licensed software. Christopher Zdana from Morrisville, NC seems a little shady.. maybe I should call their hotline real quick.
Get over yourself. Yeah, some companies lose a little money from pirated software. Others earn a KILLING from it. Imagine how popular 3D modeling would be today if pirating didn't exist... Oh, I'm just messing with you. I'm sure you and all your friends had a legitimate copy of 3DS Max dropped into your hands for free when you all were in your teenage years.
lol, did you seriously just threaten to report me on a public forum? are you two years old?
Sounds like you guys are getting a little defensive...wonder why? I wasn't attacking anyone on the boards directly with my post, but since you guys stepped up... And, for the record, I wasn't talking about the theft itself....but the justification people have for it. How, somewhere in the mix, people feel that they're not in the wrong for stealing. It's still stealing.
Also, I don't pirate games, I don't steal music, and I had student/teacher licenses for all products I used while in school. Sure, when I was a teenager, I grabbed a copy of photoshop and some music. However, I'm now an adult...with an income, and a better sense of how my actions affect people. I'm not trying to promote myself as this pure "internet cool guy". I'm certainly not innocent. But, I made no justifications and never tried to convince others that I wasn't in the wrong.
If you want to take my comments as a personal attack, then feel free.
Comparing pirating games to pirating 3D software is pretty weak. You can stop the your just as bad as me argument as a defense of pirating games. The damage done by people pirating games is far more severe and threatens more companies lively hoods, then a few people who pirate some niche software. I'd also like to see some numbers on how companies make money off pirating?
Also there is a path into the industry that doesn't involve pirating software and people do take it, even if you refuse to think otherwise.
Games and 3D software are sold under different pretenses.
3dsmax, Maya and the like are sold to people who intend to use them to make money.
If you don't intend to use the 3D software to make money then they don't want to sell it to you at full price. That's why they have free/limited versions, trials and student discounts.
Games are sold directly to you for the sole purpose of your enjoyment.
Am I a theif? Don't care so long as I do what I think is right. If you want to discourage people from buying games then keep at it like you are Lars.
Just because you morally rationalize something so it sits easy with you, doesn't make it right or legal. Even if you buy your games after pirating them, you're still helping others to steal them.
You did kinda single me out there mate. I didn't take it as an attack but do try to avoid caps in future. I mean THIEF THIEF THIEFity THIEF THIEF... lulz.
Your post came off a little high and mighty is all. Maybe thats not what you intended but bare in mind that this is the internets and we can't read what you meant into text that says different. I have a hard time wording shit online on occasion, gets me in a fair bit of trouble at times.
[edit]Damn missed your post Vig. Musta hit submit after you. I'm not trying to justify anything, I know its not cool. Unfortuneately noone is perfect and we all do shady things at times. All I meant by my post is that I try to support the devs by buying games that I like. I know it doesn't vindicate me or make it OK. If I'm not mistaken I think the point of this post was that piracy was draining profits from studios and how people can claim they "loved" Doom3 (lol) and yet they never payed for it. I never claimed to be moraly perfect only that I do my best to support the industry.
As for helping people with torrents, I highly doubt that me as one peer makes the slightest dent in a torrent that has mmm, 10000+ seeds, especially with my upload rate capped at 1kb/s. I do try to make it more difficult for people who won't buy the games. I get where you are comming from but as numerous people have said here, availability pushes a lot of people to downloading online and when you don't have the ability to purchase online you have only one option available to you. I am lucky I can buy games online, not many people here can afford to have an foreign currency bank account. Ever since I opened my account I have been buying a lot more games and most of the time I don't even bother with torrents anymore. Still do on occasion but hey I never said I was perfect.
lol, did you seriously just threaten to report me on a public forum? are you two years old?
It was a point of how hypocritical it is to question the morality of piracy when your own computer has a 99% chance of having illegitimate files on it.
Don't pump your ego, as if someone had enough interest in you to be offended or go through the trouble to report you.
Oh and you're right perna, there haven't been any serious technological advances in computer graphics required for working in the field, that aren't covered in college courses where the software is temporarily offered for an almost reasonable price.
And of course, most youngsters don't experiment! They gamble all their chips away in a single shot. Want to make games and go to college for 3D Art? Find out you hate 3D modeling, or maybe you realized that after college you are now over 40K in debt that you can't get a job with your shit portfolio? Too bad! Because piracy doesn't exist for you to have learned that beforehand, and any glimmer of economical success or sustenance is over as you know it.
What about that sad middle-class sap who thought 3D modelling might be really cool, but ended up taking mathematics classes instead because he DIDN'T want to risk his life-savings from highschool on a gamble at art school?
Then there's the nerd who spends his life hacking away at OSS Blender, only to find out that the only way to get a job in the industry is to learn and use an even shittier, extremely overpriced tool? And even worse, since the average hobbyist no longer has professional tools at his disposal because piracy no longer exists, people like him will no longer be accepted into the industry due to the high-risk and cost of training new employees with extremely clunky new tools fathered by Autodesk. He will be 40K in debt going to art school too!
So, logically and businessly speaking in your words perna, how does eliminating piracy help the aspiring hobbyist to enter into the industry? Doesn't it funnel all of them into art schools, where the majority of these hobbyists do not have the time, money, or ability to attend? Not to mention the training offered does not cover even 25% of the knowledge required to obtain a junior position these days? Did you know that 25% of statistics are made up?
You did kinda single me out there mate. I didn't take it as an attack but do try to avoid caps in future. I mean THIEF THIEF THIEFity THIEF THIEF... lulz.
Xaltar: Fair enough. You're right, my intent was not to come off high and mighty, nor did I Intend to single any one person out. I can see how my post can come off as confrontational, though. I sometimes have a difficult time putting my thoughts to words too, and I think Vig hit it spot on....in a much more eloquent way than myself. I was merely trying to emphasize that it's still stealing, no matter how someone sugar coats it.
Zephir: No ego pumping here...but you have an open invite to come check out my PC.
You make valid points about hobbyists and would be students. Points that I agree with...or atleast can understand. I've never said I don't understand why some people resort to piracy to better themselves...as far as software packages are concerned. Stealing is still stealing, however. No matter the justification. So as long as they're fine with being a thief and aren't attempting to play the victim, then whatever.
Games, on the other hand, are a different story. Video games are not something that people need in their life...as much as I wish they were >:]. People can easily not pirate a game, and continue to make a living/better themselves. As inconsequential as some people may like to think piracy is, it's still a huge issue, and it does hurt our industry. As people who are, for the most part, directly affected by video game piracy...I find it hard to believe that anyone here would have a logical reason for pirating a game.
Then there's the nerd who spends his life hacking away at OSS Blender, only to find out that the only way to get a job in the industry is to learn and use an even shittier, extremely overpriced tool?
you get a job from your portfolio, if you're good enough it only takes a few weeks to get working knowledge of the program, there's 30 day trials out for Max.
...Gears 2 has been stolen via the disc production plant, and also torrented. Now, I would have thought that a torrented 360 game posed little threat.....
Last night I went to IGN to see when GOW 2 was going to be released on PC, and I read that EPIC isn't planning to release it at all because Cliffy B is scared of the piracy. Maybe he shouldn't have released it on 360, either. That would have shown the pirates who's boss.
Being an American, I need Perna to quantify and qualify the irony content in this post.
Piracy on the 360 is not denting their sales estimates. 360 pirates with modded consoles are not part of their market. Neither are people who buy pirated games in china or w/e stereotype you want. PC piracy is very different, their core userbase is pirating instead of buying.
It's not about the number of pirated games, it's about the amount of lost income.
Replies
There's no way you're gonna stop piracy, either the consumers themselves do it or like some others were saying there are still "boot leggers" and stuff, especially in Asia. Your best bet, if you're worried about profits, is to make fun little games that cost 1/3 the price of a big-budget game (for the consumer), are potentially more fun than those games, and cost less to develop.
Basically, large games like GOW2 that tons of people want to play can only be protected by requiring a unique ID for playing online (like an MMO); otherwise you're gonna have piracy.
my ass is still a bit sore from EB raping myself and other aussie customers.....
oh - and i got epic - pissed at the money grubbing whore of a commercial store that would still sell a $90+ 'Alone in the Dark', and forget to inform that ' hey, the game doesn't actually work properly, and there won't be any patches - oh but you can trade it in after you purchase it without any playing for 35$ if that, cheers would you like a receipt for that?......'
(then again i was a stupid douche not to wait for an actual gameplay review from an independant source, rather than the hyped in-company promotional material
It definately sucks watching first hand what happened to the music industry slowly happening to our industry.
For a while, it seemed like consoles fought piracy, but that's apparently changing.
Might not be long until all games are services, like MMOs or TF2 than standalone single player games.
Might be up to the developers to design games that are unhackable in principal.
heh, if you talk about pirating all the games, download all the games... then just forget what i said lol, the castle would be very small. I was talking about the games we like :P. I barely buy 6 games per year, there aren't good games for my taste, only a few.
There's a problem with all this, and it's that people want to play ALL at 0 cost. I'm agree with you, but i must say that too much people don't buy games, and they can afford them perfectly. Games are "free" in the internet, so they don't buy them, money they save for other things.
piracy=worse games
Each year, there are worse games for PC. Piracy can not be stopped, but yes mitigated. I would kill all those websites offering links and torrents... the more difficult to get something illegal, the better for the developers/authors (more incomes=better games and more jobs).
Our connection to the internet is also a target
In the european community are studying how to stop this huge problem. With such % of piracy = no business making games.
steam games are also pirated
(Sorry. Thought the thread could use a pointless light-hearted break. Continue with the regularly scheduled heated debate.
On a serious note though, I know 10 year olds that play pirated games, hell they even know how to patch then recrack the damn things. I'm sure you will find that a large % of people who use pirated games are between say 12 and 16. The reason behind this is that their parents refuse to pay say ~$60 for a game (depending on what country you are in and obviously the game) when that same ~$60 can buy them a new pair of jeans or a nice shirt. Now, if the kid asks for a master chief backpack or shirt yada yada odds are, the parents will get it for them. Its like what has been said earlier in the thread, games fail because of bad marketing and or just being a shit overpriced product. Money is there to be made if publishers play their cards right.
If the game won't sell but is getting a lot of play then make merchandise for it that kids will want. Ala $500 masterchief helmet :P
Yeah, that's something like what consoles are doing, with buy-over-Intarwebs kind games that you need legit accounts to access. The problem is, as soon as it's on one guy's hard drive, he's free to rip it loose, crack it and upload it as a stand-alone product for everyone to grab for free.
The PC games market isn't dying because of piracy. It's dying because it's not accessible anymore in a time where everything has become streamlined and accessible, making people lazy and comfortable ("what? open my PC and put in a new graphics card? wut?"). Hell, the PC games market isn't dying, period. The PC games market is changing, leaning more to casual games (e.g. PopCap), or niche markets with a low development cost and high return (e.g. Stardocks Sins of a Solar Empire (didn't even have copy protection(!), was pirated, but made a respectable profit that the developer and publisher seem happy with)).
And you know what, I'm happy with that.
As for Steam, if I remember correctly games delivered via Steam were cracked and pirated first week. But Steam's strength doesn't lie in being able to securely lock games down. This is impossible to do. Steam's strength is in its accessibility and ease of use (no more hunting for patches), and the fact that it's so easy to just impulse-buy games. You don't have time to change your mind on your 30 minute trip to Wal-Mart/Tesco/Game.
Mezz, yeah it -was- kinda hard to write about dongles with a straight face :P But I'm used to it, in our office we have a really fantastic juvenile level of humour where someone will sneak up to your PC when you leave it unattended, start MS Paint, quickly draw the most disgusting cock you can imagine, and then put it as the wallpaper. And to imagine we make Lego games that kids enjoy :poly142:
weren't going to buy the game in the first place.
lost sales...
Logically, that make no sense.
People seem much more inclined to pirate if what they want can't be had easily (read that as one-click-wonder, conspicuous consumerism). I've often thought, when I read between the lines, that gamers pirate in that context with 'spite' as a motivating factor, "if I can't get it officially (cheap), then feck um, I'll just download it".
Absolutely. And its funny, because everyone (including every freaking CEO) knows this, but the industry has been so slow to adopt this method.
In addition to reducing the need for piracy, games need to provide incentives for legit sales. Lots of this is online connectivity, because when people connect, they are validated. But it doesn't have to be online games like TF2, or an MMO, or whatever. Look at something like Spore- the game would suck if you weren't online, you'd be missing so much of the content. Even things like Achievements, leaderboards, etc., provide an incentive to buy. I would freaking hate if a game artificially put these restrictions in place, but when they form part of the experience and fundamentally require connectivity, it provides a strong discouragement to using a pirated copy.
There are so many more options than what the music industry has done, because our product is fundamentally different. DRM is a complete failure and more companies (Blizzard?) are acknowledging this. Take away incentive to pirate (make games available digitally, and cheaper, and maybe offer SP/MP components seperately?), and add incentive to purchase (enhance the experience through online connectivity).
But can we sell games for cheaper? Digital downloads would point towards that, but as we have seen, that's not always the case. I suppose we'd firstly need to know what the retail markup was for a game.
Most things at retail get 100%-150% of markup, but I'm sure that games aren't that high and are closer to a 25-30% markup (some claim that it's actually under 10%).
You'd think that moving to a purely digital distribution would cut out the middleman (the physical retailers), therefore lowering games by (the hypothetical) 25-30%, but have we not already had proof that this is not the case? Fearing lack of support from retailers, digital downloads are priced the same as physical media, but the profits go to the publishers and not the shop.
IB has been on these board about as long as I have and all of us older members have given him tips and crits and he has always had a good attitude and supported PC. I highly doubt he is lying about getting the game.
Piracy = very touchy subject
Lighten up dudes.
Digital music sales on the rise but not fast enough.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/18/technology/music.php
Hopefully our industry will take this time to observe and side step the issue the music industry has had to deal with... hopefully...
However, when it comes to an artist I really like or a CD I really enjoy, I will buy it. Random singles I like but don't like more from the same artist I'll just download, and yes, this comes to the mentality of "I wouldn't have bought it anway". I'm not saying this isn't stealing or not 'wrong' in any way, but making sure I still support what I like most let's me live with myself. lol
I think games are a bit different... one song and one game are pretty different in comparrison. Not that I'm saying there isn't good work that goes into every song, but there's a lot more that does go into every game. I'd feel much different about stealing a game, even if I 'wouldn't have bought it anyway.'
Just how I feel personally. :P But yeah, touchy subject overall...
App stores are the way all things digital should be. User sees an advert for something does a search for it or clicks on the ad and Wa La! they can demo it and if they like it buy it. How simple is that for consumers. Music, games, and movies all should be this easy to own. Add on top of that servers that track what you own so that you always own it. You don't need to have a hard copy of it just redownload it when you want it. Not buying media from the servers would mean that you would be able to have it on demand and if you delete it its gone. For us thats nothing but if your used to that never being true then that would really suck.
If you want to keep your brick and mortar stores you would need to have when your rung up it sends off the "cd key" to a sever where it waits for the buyer to play it, where it can verify the "cd key" on the disc with one bought. Then once those are checked it would again be available to download to any device its made for just like buying it online.
...And that pretty much sums up the issue. If anything is accessible consequence-free, people will grab it. Though illegal or morally reprehensible, you just won't be able to convince them not to. Some companies attempt to get around this by making free content harder to acquire. This is what the home console industry benefits from. It is harder to get pirated console games than it is to get pirated PC games.
And so some companies try to make it as hard as possible to actually play a game. Unfortunately, they can't distinguish between someone who paid for a game and someone who didn't. So they end up making it harder to play for everyone. And increasing the difficulty or frustration of using a product the way it is meant to be used makes it a harder sell.
Then there are the companies who sell a service, rather than a product. If the service is something that is borrowed, rather than owned, than they never have to worry about it being stolen. This is true for services like Netflix, iTunes, and World of Warcraft. (and by extension, all other MMOs)
And lastly, there are the companies who simply say "screw it." Sometimes they just sell the game without any copy protection, and hope for the best. Some of these have managed to do well for themselves. But they have also tended to have produced lower-budget niche titles. And of course, the "free" games also fall into this category. They distribute their games free of charge, and make money off of advertising or merchandising.
Perhaps one of the most appealing concepts for developers is digital download services. These are a hybrid of an on-line service and a purchasing system. You never really get to "own" the games, but it kind of feels like you do. Steam, XBox Live Arcade, PSN network games, and Wii Virtual Console and WiiWare all work in this fashion. Developers like these systems because they provide a similar structure to the stores people are used to buying from, while offering the security of an on-line service.
so you'd advocate reverse engineering, and porting of files from one game into another? after all, people might not want to play the whole game, but some characters might look cool to them.
i'm in the middle of recording a second album, and i've gotta say i'd be fucking pissed if i found out someone had downloaded one of my tracks without paying for it. even my friends have all asked me "when can i buy the album" rather than "can i listen to the demo?".
my view on pirating games and music are much the same: if there is a free demo, take it. if you like the demo, buy the full product. if you don't, then don't play it anymore.
simple.
Same with Music..Metalica just released a new one...I havnt liked a Metalica album since Justice...Rick Rubin produced it (Rubin has produced some bad ass albums in his time.) I was tempted to buy it...But I checked it first....no thank you..maybe one or two good songs..but not worth my 15 dollars...
It's almost impossible to open up a new AAA studio now, and with all the current big boy studios dropping out of the game(pun intended), the whole industry is heading toward a crash and burn.
Funneling more money toward large studios will solve the problem? Dream on, kids.
that's a crock o shit me hardy
Name more than 3 in the last two years that haven't flopped or are near going under.
Of course, there is considerably more opportunity these days for smaller developers, working on smaller projects. The industry had been trending away from these smaller projects for so long, that its actually nice to see them on the rise again. They are much lower risk than AAA development, so investors are more willing to pitch in. Expect to see a lot more polished, low-budget games in coming years that will be distributed over secure on-line services.
http://www.vigilgames.com/
http://www.hirezstudios.com/
http://www.slipg8.com/
THe blokes from the remnants of Sierra are starting something new in Seattle
Same with some of the Crew laid off from Midway Austin
I betcha something will spawn from the demise of ensemble as well
Yeah..then we can argue about what constitutes a tripple A game/Studio....if its how much money you can throw at something..then I guess everything that comes out of EA & Microsoft are aaa gems...
Sorry for the derailment...bacl to Piracy Arrrr ye boot is in me Booty
Give me good fast demos servers and a quick and easy way to pay for my games and I will buy a lot more games, untill then I will stick to buying my 3/4 titles a year and trying out maybe 10 titles a year via torrent. Shit, why not have the demos up on publishers OWN torrent sites, you can password torrents and I'm sure with a little work on the format it could be made a secure method of sales and download (alla Itunes etc).
[edit] I also only downlaod ISOs so when I buy a game I just use my key unless there is some sort of securom or whatever, then I download it via the site I baught it from, usually at a pathetic speed that takes all day. I do my best to support the industry but with marketing such as it is its not easy to do so.
but still it happens because in reality there isnt anyone stopping you.
not saying im a saint tho , i know the right path it doesnt mean i walk it XD
En Garde!
"The game is too expensive."
"Demos rarely work, and take just as long to download."
"The demo was buggy."
"They didn't provide a demo."
"I preordered it already."
....and so on.
The fact remains, you're STILL a thief. Additionally, in most cases, you got your STOLEN game from a torrent. Therefor, you helped SHARE the STOLEN game out to other THIEVES that may not share your.....moral code.
Have we forgotten what happened to our friends at Iron Lore? A shitty crack made the game hit a security "checkpoint" and crash to the desktop. Say what you will about the methods.."they should have had a message box, yada yada.". I'm sure there were countless THIEVES that thought the game itself was buggy, and decided not to purchase the game after their "personal demo". Obviously this wasn't the sole reason of Iron Lore shutting down...but damn, sure as hell didn't help.
Stop justifying your THEFT. You're still a thief, and it's a despicable thing to do if you're currently, or aspiring to be, in the industry.
Don't get me wrong here. I hate to see a studio go under because of piracy, shit, Troika that developed Bloodlines went down in part because of it. But they also went down because they got screwed by the publishers and Valve and that played a far larger part in it than piracy. Whenever piracy is attributed to a company going under there are usually far larger issues responsible leading up to that point. More often than not it is simply the last nail in a coffin that has been under construction for some time before.
What do you want from me? I buy my games and I try to get my friends to do the same. As for "getting into the industry" I have no intention of doing that, never have and never will. I am a 3d artist becuase I am an artist not because I want to make a living off it. For the record I am retired and have been since I was 25. I have already worked my ass off to make a living and now that I have the means to no longer need to do that I just want to have a few hobbies I enjoy. Am I a theif? Don't care so long as I do what I think is right. If you want to discourage people from buying games then keep at it like you are Lars.
I hear the BSA is offering $50,000 for reports on pirated and stolen licensed software. Christopher Zdana from Morrisville, NC seems a little shady.. maybe I should call their hotline real quick.
Get over yourself. Yeah, some companies lose a little money from pirated software. Others earn a KILLING from it. Imagine how popular 3D modeling would be today if pirating didn't exist... Oh, I'm just messing with you. I'm sure you and all your friends had a legitimate copy of 3DS Max dropped into your hands for free when you all were in your teenage years.
Sounds like you guys are getting a little defensive...wonder why? I wasn't attacking anyone on the boards directly with my post, but since you guys stepped up...
Also, I don't pirate games, I don't steal music, and I had student/teacher licenses for all products I used while in school. Sure, when I was a teenager, I grabbed a copy of photoshop and some music. However, I'm now an adult...with an income, and a better sense of how my actions affect people. I'm not trying to promote myself as this pure "internet cool guy". I'm certainly not innocent. But, I made no justifications and never tried to convince others that I wasn't in the wrong.
If you want to take my comments as a personal attack, then feel free.
Also there is a path into the industry that doesn't involve pirating software and people do take it, even if you refuse to think otherwise.
Games and 3D software are sold under different pretenses.
3dsmax, Maya and the like are sold to people who intend to use them to make money.
If you don't intend to use the 3D software to make money then they don't want to sell it to you at full price. That's why they have free/limited versions, trials and student discounts.
Games are sold directly to you for the sole purpose of your enjoyment.
Just because you morally rationalize something so it sits easy with you, doesn't make it right or legal. Even if you buy your games after pirating them, you're still helping others to steal them.
Your post came off a little high and mighty is all. Maybe thats not what you intended but bare in mind that this is the internets and we can't read what you meant into text that says different. I have a hard time wording shit online on occasion, gets me in a fair bit of trouble at times.
[edit]Damn missed your post Vig. Musta hit submit after you. I'm not trying to justify anything, I know its not cool. Unfortuneately noone is perfect and we all do shady things at times. All I meant by my post is that I try to support the devs by buying games that I like. I know it doesn't vindicate me or make it OK. If I'm not mistaken I think the point of this post was that piracy was draining profits from studios and how people can claim they "loved" Doom3 (lol) and yet they never payed for it. I never claimed to be moraly perfect only that I do my best to support the industry.
As for helping people with torrents, I highly doubt that me as one peer makes the slightest dent in a torrent that has mmm, 10000+ seeds, especially with my upload rate capped at 1kb/s. I do try to make it more difficult for people who won't buy the games. I get where you are comming from but as numerous people have said here, availability pushes a lot of people to downloading online and when you don't have the ability to purchase online you have only one option available to you. I am lucky I can buy games online, not many people here can afford to have an foreign currency bank account. Ever since I opened my account I have been buying a lot more games and most of the time I don't even bother with torrents anymore. Still do on occasion but hey I never said I was perfect.
It was a point of how hypocritical it is to question the morality of piracy when your own computer has a 99% chance of having illegitimate files on it.
Don't pump your ego, as if someone had enough interest in you to be offended or go through the trouble to report you.
Oh and you're right perna, there haven't been any serious technological advances in computer graphics required for working in the field, that aren't covered in college courses where the software is temporarily offered for an almost reasonable price.
And of course, most youngsters don't experiment! They gamble all their chips away in a single shot. Want to make games and go to college for 3D Art? Find out you hate 3D modeling, or maybe you realized that after college you are now over 40K in debt that you can't get a job with your shit portfolio? Too bad! Because piracy doesn't exist for you to have learned that beforehand, and any glimmer of economical success or sustenance is over as you know it.
What about that sad middle-class sap who thought 3D modelling might be really cool, but ended up taking mathematics classes instead because he DIDN'T want to risk his life-savings from highschool on a gamble at art school?
Then there's the nerd who spends his life hacking away at OSS Blender, only to find out that the only way to get a job in the industry is to learn and use an even shittier, extremely overpriced tool? And even worse, since the average hobbyist no longer has professional tools at his disposal because piracy no longer exists, people like him will no longer be accepted into the industry due to the high-risk and cost of training new employees with extremely clunky new tools fathered by Autodesk. He will be 40K in debt going to art school too!
So, logically and businessly speaking in your words perna, how does eliminating piracy help the aspiring hobbyist to enter into the industry? Doesn't it funnel all of them into art schools, where the majority of these hobbyists do not have the time, money, or ability to attend? Not to mention the training offered does not cover even 25% of the knowledge required to obtain a junior position these days? Did you know that 25% of statistics are made up?
yeah man use italics.
thief. Venomous yet subtle!
That's too far. then you just start to sound like a supervillain. PITIFUL.
Perna: Zephir is apparently an idiot, don't worry yourself too much over his posts. Think of him like ViPr and don't try to figure out what he means.
Zephir: No ego pumping here...but you have an open invite to come check out my PC.
You make valid points about hobbyists and would be students. Points that I agree with...or atleast can understand. I've never said I don't understand why some people resort to piracy to better themselves...as far as software packages are concerned. Stealing is still stealing, however. No matter the justification. So as long as they're fine with being a thief and aren't attempting to play the victim, then whatever.
Games, on the other hand, are a different story. Video games are not something that people need in their life...as much as I wish they were >:]. People can easily not pirate a game, and continue to make a living/better themselves. As inconsequential as some people may like to think piracy is, it's still a huge issue, and it does hurt our industry. As people who are, for the most part, directly affected by video game piracy...I find it hard to believe that anyone here would have a logical reason for pirating a game.
SupRore: I love you.
you get a job from your portfolio, if you're good enough it only takes a few weeks to get working knowledge of the program, there's 30 day trials out for Max.
Last night I went to IGN to see when GOW 2 was going to be released on PC, and I read that EPIC isn't planning to release it at all because Cliffy B is scared of the piracy. Maybe he shouldn't have released it on 360, either. That would have shown the pirates who's boss.
Being an American, I need Perna to quantify and qualify the irony content in this post.
Piracy on the 360 is not denting their sales estimates. 360 pirates with modded consoles are not part of their market. Neither are people who buy pirated games in china or w/e stereotype you want. PC piracy is very different, their core userbase is pirating instead of buying.
It's not about the number of pirated games, it's about the amount of lost income.